SDF equipment if you worked for Rosoboronexport

miketheterrible wrote:I'm just saying. It would be cool if they did do that but we know that the EU and US will strong arm Scottish government.

I mean, new Zealand and Australia are neither EU or NATO, but they exclusively buy US/EU weapons.

GarryB wrote:Reading your signature... perhaps you need to start an expedition to find the ark of truth... might be the only thing that will save you from re assimilation and full violent forced conversion...

GarryB wrote:You have been in the gang for a long time... being on the outside might come as a shock... the countries you think of as allies and neighbours and even friends could easily be turned against you because the big bullies of the group want to punish you for rejecting the kool aide...

GarryB wrote:Ask Saddam or Gaddafi... they thought they were OK with the west and then the west turned on them... that feral creature is just under the surface... pretty soon someone will use chem weapons in Syria and we know it wont be the terrorists that get the blame no matter what the evidence...

Godric wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I imagine if Scotland did separate from England and started developing its own forces, it will be entirely based of American and European equipment.  Reason is that Scotland wants to be part of the EU.  Even down to their combat rifles, they will opt for German, Canadian or American made.  I doubt they would buy anything from Russia aside some Mi-8's or Mi-16 helicopters.  Even then they may purchase American or Italian helicopters at that point.

we  might be part of the EU ... but the USA controls Nato and many of the weapons systems contain American components like US forced France to cancel Scalp-EG sale to Egypt last month because it has US components ... can't see us buying the G-36 after the problems with them and Germany about to ditch them

@ d_taddei2 it doesn't work that way Scottish taxpayers have contributed greatly towards UK military hardware and receiving just old equipment would not wash ... best option is starting armed forces from Scratch with a £8 -9 billion in cash .... that won't happen either as the rUK will have to pay brexit bill... Scotland contributes around £3.5 billion per year towards UK defense spending or just over $5 billion that is a decent budget their is nothing to stop us spending more as our economy grows and we know our real GDP and not one made up by the UK .... i would rather go for Su30MKs and SU-32s, and Kamov 52 attack helos and Mil Mi17 transport helos, transport aircraft either the Chinese Y-20 or the Russian Ilyushin Il-76-MD-90A

light mechanised ground forces will not cut it, we will need tanks at the challenger 2 is to heavy and obsolete to be used in rural Scotland ... i would like to see a combination of T-90MS and BMPT-72 (terminator 2s)

Ireland spends 800 million Euros on defence and they have more maritime assets than the UK ... Ireland had to help the UK hunt for a non existent sub in the firth of clyde a couple of years ago because the UK had no such assets

d_taddei2 wrote:I never said they would accept the old stuff and must remember the debates around defence Westminster was stating getting old stuff as Scotland didn't need new high tech. Hence I said a money settlement would be better so we can buy what we want. And of course it doesn't work like that but let me ask you when has Westminster done anything correctly nevermind correctly towards Scotland.

d_taddei2 wrote:As for tanks they wouldn't give challenger and we don't want it. T-72 or T-90 and yes maybe some terminator. Su-32 and 30 would be great but not sure if we could stomach the cost on start up maybe the Yak -130 & mig - 29M2 first then over time when everything is settled get better equipment. As defence will be just one area of importance economy and setting various areas of government is also paramount.

d_taddei2 wrote:Buk M3 for eventual replacement for the penchora and penchora to be mounted on

MT-LB and a wheeled chassis like Belarusian stilet thus adding another missile to the system.

Small number of pantsir for protection of naval base, air base, and head of state etc.

A small number of mig-29M2 about 8 this would bolster air defence. The cheaper running yak -130 would do patroling etc and if and foreign aircraft was approaching the migs could be deployed could be used as a QRF

UAV and UCAV

IL -38N  (second hand ) could be used as cheaper alternative

An-140 (Russian built) and/or An-32 if it's still available to buy (ukrainian built)

Two  il-76 (refurbished)

Two mi-26 would be ideal due to the sheer number of islands majority without runway.

Ansat and ansat 2RC this would fulfil light transport and allow 2RC as recce/light attack and possibly one or two could be situated on a frigate.

Ka-27M and PS  (S&R) /transport for frigate and naval operations. (Refurbished)

Bdrm-2 with Azerbaijan upgrade to Zdkm and possibly anti tank version with metis or konkurs
(Second hand upgraded )

Two battalions with tigr some armed with metis (am sure it wouldnt be hard to maje a version) and gibka-s or zu-23m1. Bpm-97 and bulat could also be used if they wanted cheaper.

Rpg-7v added

And second hand upgraded BM -21 (about 6/

The last time independencewas mentioned the Scottish Government produced a paper on the subject which to be honest wasn't very detailed and wasn't great. But the budget was £1.5-2bn
Or $2.08- 2.77bn Which isn't bad

flamming_python wrote:Expensive. Any of the Buks, nevermind the latest one. The Pechora-2M is basically the same class of SAM system albeit considerably cheaper. But if you want Buk-M3s then maybe get just a battery or two (or the S-350) for Edinburgh and Glasgow and use Pechora-2Ms for the rest.

flamming_python wrote:I don't think it's a cheap system, and being a SHORAD, it's only useful for point-defence of targets. Question is - what's so valuable in Scotland that you would want to defend? It doesn't any strategic naval bases for nuclear subs (well it does now but won't if Britain leaves), anything of the sort. Better to just have a air-defence network centred around Edinburgh.

flamming_python wrote:Keep in mind that if the British go for a 'hard divorce' and don't actually leave Scotland a single thing; then Scotland will have to create and equip a military literally right from zero, and in that case it would be quite justified in having a much higher GDP expenditure on military needs than normal for the first 2-3 years or so; like at 8% or so.

d_taddei2 wrote:All good stuff being said.



@Godric
I come from borders of Scotland and no the area very well and yes MBTs not suitable but there is still main roads that could take them but easy prey due to lack of routes. But many rivers can be low easy for a tank. But with a lot of open fields as well a ATGW crew would have a great day destroying them. Scotland forces will be smaller than rUK and speed is key. A highly mobile and versatile force is needed. Btr82 are ideal cross any river in Borders doesn't matter how deep can cruise through fields etc with speed.  As for forests well only forest roads and fire breaks exist and all vehicles can use them although some fire breaks would need tracked vehicles. The problem is this makes easy prey from the air and troops in forests. The forests are very dense especially those planted by forestry commission and I mean dense like during the day they are very dark it's even difficult for troops. I was in the army and when we can across such forests we would only penetrate 5-10 metres in but normally just skirt round them on the edge to make it easy and if needed could just dart into it. Scots pine tree branches are rough as hell and sit fairly low to the base of the tree making some of these forests unable to walk through.

Mine laying vehicles would also be great to choke routes or at least slow them down.

If artillery was to get more attention than just 120mm mortars etc then upgraded 2s1 would be cheap option and if mt-lb were already being used then chassis would be ideal. Of course other good options would be the serbian models sora or soko 122mm and for something heavier the Nora B -52 or MGS-25 Alexander 152mm and possibly half a dozen smerch.

Godric wrote:
here is a map of Scotland and it's maritime waters ... look at the area it covers Pechora's/Nevas would be no use except near the border with England and aimed at N Ireland

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:
here is a map of Scotland and it's maritime waters ... look at the area it covers Pechora's/Nevas would be no use except near the border with England and aimed at N Ireland

If the islanders declare referendum and stay in the UK, those waters (territorial and EEZ) will be reduced to insignificance. Rockall stays in the UK regardless. Shetland is not Scotland per se, also. In addition, the British Army will stay in what can be described as post-USSR scenario of Russian Forces in Moldova, Ukraine, Georgia and so on. That scenario includes Crimea, Abkhazia, S. Ossetia and Transdnistria. It's not going to be war, but islands, bases and possibly land will remain in the UK and Scotland be a pariah.

Nicola Sturgeon (mini Merkel) is leading Scotland straight to Brussel's colonial status with a dash of Maidanut Ukraine (EU membership = Euro + EU Army, i.e. NATO).

Godric wrote:utter nonsense Shetlands has been part of Scotland since 1433 nearly 275 years before the UK was formed ... according to UNCLOS because shetlands is a archipelago off Scotland they would have a 12 mile zone around the island and the rest would be part of Scotland's territorial and EEZ   ... as for Rockall the nearest landfall is either Scotland's St Kilda or Iceland ... it is nowhere near the rUK .... get used ito it greek boy the UK will soon be finished ... ... the Shetlanders care less for England also because it is even further away ... if the Shetland's were to leave Scotland it won't be for the UK ... it would be for Norway .... but never mind Scotland is surrounded by oil and gas  

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:utter nonsense Shetlands has been part of Scotland since 1433 nearly 275 years before the UK was formed ... according to UNCLOS because shetlands is a archipelago off Scotland they would have a 12 mile zone around the island and the rest would be part of Scotland's territorial and EEZ   ... as for Rockall the nearest landfall is either Scotland's St Kilda or Iceland ... it is nowhere near the rUK .... get used ito it greek boy the UK will soon be finished ... ... the Shetlanders care less for England also because it is even further away ... if the Shetland's were to leave Scotland it won't be for the UK ... it would be for Norway .... but never mind Scotland is surrounded by oil and gas  

Scotland has been part of the UK, longer than any of their claimed lands were ever part of admin border of British Scotland.
The good stuff will vote out, the UK will keep pretty much the entire, useful EEZ and oil/gas fields.

Scotland can enjoy worthless inland towns and cities (Glasgow, Dundee and so on). And the euro too The islanders are not ethic Scots, Shetland and islands have little to do with historical lands of Scotland. Shetlanders care little about the subsaharan Africa-level political sh1tsow in Holyrood. They are more British nowadays than anything else. They don't care about greater Scotland dreams of mini Merkel.

PS. Rockall is British, nearest landfall means nothing (see Falklands).

Godric wrote:
you haven't a clue ... you are just bitter the UK will soon be finished ... you see Scotland decides as a nation ... their has been umpteen news reports from both the shetland's and orkneys everytime the people say they associate themselves more with Scotland than England and this so called secessionist movement you aye go on about with 150 members all but 5 of them live outwith Scotland ... the UK does not decide what are maritime borders are it's UNCLOS and the EU will back us 100%  

KiloGolf wrote:

Godric wrote:
you haven't a clue ... you are just bitter the UK will soon be finished ... you see Scotland decides as a nation ... their has been umpteen news reports from both the shetland's and orkneys everytime the people say they associate themselves more with Scotland than England and this so called secessionist movement you aye go on about with 150 members all but 5 of them live outwith Scotland ... the UK does not decide what are maritime borders are it's UNCLOS and the EU will back us 100%  

The EU wouldn't back Ireland or UK over NI affairs, never backed either Spain or UK on Gibraltar. They let Turkey occupy Cyprus and cause all sorts of problems in the Aegean against Greece. EU is a badly managed bank and a collection of useless, overpaid pencil pushers. Geo-politically speaking it's as strong as Denmark. Nobody cares about it other than tiny puppet states.

The UK leaving the EU, makes EU's input in British island affairs minimal to non-existent.

Scotland's association to the non-Scot isles is purely administrative under UK framework.
Once that framework is gone, it's open season on them islands, islets and rocks.

Godric wrote:away back to school ya silly little boy