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Allow me to simplify it down to Simple Jack level: when you sell something to someone that something stops being yours and it becomes someone else's
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caveat emptor
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Serbia’s relations with EU and NATO
PapaDragon- Posts : 13285
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Allow me to simplify it down to Simple Jack level: when you sell something to someone that something stops being yours and it becomes someone else's
Scorpius- Posts : 1472
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PapaDragon wrote:Allow me to simplify it down to Simple Jack level: when you sell something to someone that something stops being yours and it becomes someone else's
So, if Russia sells ammunition for the United States to use it to bomb Serbia, is that normal for you?
caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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No need to be so daft about it. If US and Russia have problems controlling flow of their own weapons, how do you expect Serbia to do it?@FP
But you trying defend to potential Serbian arms supplies to the Ukraine via NATO to kill Russians that's just priceless.
Get to the bottom of it and if proven then cut the supplies of all that shit immediately.. what is this - Stockholm syndrome?
Illicit gun trade is a real thing and people that do it always find a way. Including people inside Serbia connected to someone in government.
Majority of the transactions are done by private companies with permits. Mortar mines from Serbia finished in Ukraine that were originally sold for Afghan army and were rerouted to Ukraine via Poland. There's no way Serbia can control something like that short of completely stopping sales.
caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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Russia was already doing it and was selling weapons to Croatia. Most of the weapons and ammo for Croatian army, during the 90's came from Russia and Ukraine.@Scorpius
So, if Russia sells ammunition for the United States to use it to bomb Serbia, is that normal for you?
flamming_python
flamming_python- Posts : 9042
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Join date : 2012-01-30
No need to be so daft about it. If US and Russia have problems controlling flow of their own weapons, how do you expect Serbia to do it?
Illicit gun trade is a real thing and people that do it always find a way. Including people inside Serbia connected to someone in government.
Majority of the transactions are done by private companies with permits. Mortar mines from Serbia finished in Ukraine that were originally sold for Afghan army and were rerouted to Ukraine via Poland. There's no way Serbia can control something like that short of completely stopping sales.
What do you mean there's no way of controlling it?
What private companies? Where are they registered? What's wrong with taking a moment to think about it - if it looks like a US-ally, or CIA-affiliated, or US-vassal state affiliated, or NATO-affiliated, then it probably is. Don't sell it to them.
Afghan Army was a US proxy - of course it will make its way to the Ukraine. But that's a past sale, I'm talking about current ones. It really doesn't take much consideration.
And yes better to stop sales then continuing sales that will kill Russian soldiers - that's not gonna fly.
Sell to countries instead that are on good terms with Russia or known to be neutral, or companies based there.
I'm being serious, the world is dividing in the middle so yes don't sell to anyone on the other side; it will all go to the Ukraine. Unless the other side is actually your side now, that is.
And you can bet that if you sell through whatever intermediaries war material that ends up in Russia - the US and pals will be on your case about it immediately, with hot bated breath down your neck and a revolver aimed at the back of your skull; and no excuse such as 'oh how were we supposed to know' will cut it with them. So don't expect it will cut it with Russia either for the opposite case.
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caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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@FP
What do you mean there's no way of controlling it?
What private companies? Where are they registered? What's wrong with taking a moment to think about it - if it looks like a US-ally, or CIA-affiliated, or US-vassal state affiliated, or NATO-affiliated, then it probably is. Don't sell it to them.
Afghan Army was a US proxy - of course it will make its way to the Ukraine. But that's a past sale, I'm talking about current ones. It really doesn't take much consideration.
And yes better to stop sales then continuing sales that will kill Russian soldiers - that's not gonna fly.
I meant, exactly what i said. If you think that arms traders are suckers, you're a very naive person. Companies that exported arms from Serbia were registered in many different countries. Some of the largest ones owned by Serbian citizens.
Also, many countries will play both sides of the aisle. UAE, for example. And there is a legit reason for us to sell them our Grad missiles. We did it in the past. Some of it were used by their army, but some went to Syria or Yemen and Libya. Iraq also comes to mind. Pakistan, as well. Plain that crashed in Greece carrying Serbian ammo for Bangladesh, maybe wouldn't even end up in Bangladesh. Many of these countries don't have strict controls and private business will cover arms shipments with legit orders from respective governments. I wouldn't be surprised if our small arms ammo ends up in Ukraine, since US buys around 1500 tons annually from Serbia. You can buy Prvi Partizan ammo in freaking Walmart.
Anyway, whatever ammo ended up in Ukraine is nothing compared to what Russian "allies" Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan sent. And, what is more important it didn't end there directly.
Just to put things into perspective:
24 MIG 21,
17 Mi-8
11 MI-24,
S-300 PMU
hundreds of Fagot and Konkurs systems, with several thousand accompanied missiles
several thousand rockets and bombs
several tens of thousands Kalashnikov weaponry in different configurations
more than 30 million bullets.
Plus, few hundred training, repair stuff and pilots and parts for planes and choppers. This is not package for Ukraine, but Russian weapons package for Croatia.
caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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You can tell me that this happened in times of Yeltsin, but it is not that important, since Yeltsin was legitimate Russian president. Many people in Serbia still remember that and are keeping on sidelines in this conflict. Government will do whatever they can to stay in power as long as possible.
Smartest thing for Russia to do would be not to make too much fuss about it, as it is not worth of risking losing a rare ally in Europe. Especially, since it is obvious that Serbia does everything it can not to supply arms to Ukraine.
Smartest thing for Russia to do would be not to make too much fuss about it, as it is not worth of risking losing a rare ally in Europe. Especially, since it is obvious that Serbia does everything it can not to supply arms to Ukraine.
flamming_python- Posts : 9042
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Also, many countries will play both sides of the aisle. UAE, for example. And there is a legit reason for us to sell them our Grad missiles. We did it in the past. Some of it were used by their army, but some went to Syria or Yemen and Libya. Iraq also comes to mind. Pakistan, as well. Plain that crashed in Greece carrying Serbian ammo for Bangladesh, maybe wouldn't even end up in Bangladesh. Many of these countries don't have strict controls and private business will cover arms shipments with legit orders from respective governments. I wouldn't be surprised if our small arms ammo ends up in Ukraine, since US buys around 1500 tons annually from Serbia. You can buy Prvi Partizan ammo in freaking Walmart.
Well that 1500 tons of ammo you sell to America annually. Cut it short.
And anything else that goes to anywhere in NATO that the Serbians can track down.
Anyway, whatever ammo ended up in Ukraine is nothing compared to what Russian "allies" Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan sent. And, what is more important it didn't end there directly.
You don't need to worry about that; for every customer, an individual approach.
Plus, few hundred training, repair stuff and pilots and parts for planes and choppers. This is not package for Ukraine, but Russian weapons package for Croatia.
S-300PMU?
When was this fire-sale to Croatia?
But frankly the pro-Western gov of the 90s doesn't represent us, nor did Yeltsin give up his seat even after he was beaten in the '95 election.
Smartest thing for Russia to do would be not to make too much fuss about it, as it is not worth of risking losing a rare ally in Europe. Especially, since it is obvious that Serbia does everything it can not to supply arms to Ukraine.
Russia doesn't need allies who sell ammo to people trying to kill its soldiers and citizens, Lord spare us.
If the ammo deliveries are not arrested, then that means that you've been bent over and your president is going to be swearing fealty to NATO. And that Vucic's government could be many things but certainly not a Russian ally. Stop coping, start thinking about who to vote in to replace this Soros brown-noser and reassert Serbia's independence.
Not even 2 pages had gone by from all the macho assertions in response to Scorpius jesting that Serbian MiG-29s will be sold to the Ukraine
Podlodka, you on the way to Belarus yet?
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caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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Well that 1500 tons of ammo you sell to America annually. Cut it short.
And anything else that goes to anywhere in NATO that the Serbians can track down.
Not going to happen. Civilian ammo market in US is huge. It would equal to closing of the factory.
S-300PMU?
When was this fire-sale to Croatia?
But frankly the pro-Western gov of the 90s doesn't represent us, nor did Yeltsin give up his seat even after he was beaten in the '95 election.
Here, from Croatian source:
https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/ruski-pritisak-isporucili-smo-vam-s-300-gdje-su-nestale-rakete-1162920
Some things are missing, but ammo numbers are even higher. Article talks about 160 flights with 100 tons of weapons per flight, on average. In military forums people that track these sort of things talk about 200 flights. This is why some weapons systems are missing in provided article.
It is a well known and established fact that Vucic is a scumbag and he controls the election process. He plays on both sides in order to stay in power, as long as possible. I can use your argument and say that he doesn't represent us. With the exception that he, unfortunately, does, same as Yeltsin represented Russia.
Russia doesn't need allies who sell ammo to people trying to kill its soldiers and citizens, Lord spare us.
If the ammo deliveries are not arrested, then that means that you've been bent over and your president is going to be swearing fealty to NATO. And that Vucic's government could be many things but certainly not a Russian ally. Stop coping, start thinking about who to vote in to replace this Soros brown-noser and reassert Serbia's independence.
As i said, in my first post on the subject, Serbia is doing enough as it is, considering environment it is in, right now. Just take a look at the map. Vucic is not openly bending over backwards to the West, only for the fear of losing elections, even with his shenanigans, and looking to squeeze as a good deal for himself and his henchmen from the West, as possible.
GarryB- Posts : 39068
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Allow me to simplify it down to Simple Jack level: when you sell something to someone that something stops being yours and it becomes someone else's
Yeah, like the sports shops in London that sell thousands of baseball bats every year but never sell any baseballs...
It might be something some one says when someone points out what they are doing is causing harm, but such a slimy excuse does not hold after the truth has been revealed about what is actually happening to what they are selling and they keep selling it.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13285
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Scorpius wrote:So, if Russia sells ammunition for the United States to use it to bomb Serbia, is that normal for you?
Why not? You already sold us for expired chicken legs and a pat on the back, ammo would just be triviality
flamming_python wrote:But frankly the pro-Western gov of the 90s doesn't represent us...
Every single NATO government changed since the 90s, should we be forgiving them as well?
flamming_python wrote:Well that 1500 tons of ammo you sell to America annually. Cut it short.
You hypocrites are still selling oil, gas and uranium to USA but you want us to cut back?
Care to cover the losses if we cut back?
flamming_python wrote:If the ammo deliveries are not arrested, then that means that you've been bent over and your president is going to be swearing fealty to NATO. And that Vucic's government...
All Vucic would need to do is to have TV stations spend couple of weeks reporting on how hard Russians screwed us over and how much weapons they delivered to our enemies and he will get to have his cake and eat it too
Everyone here knows that Russia played us but 90% of people aren't aware of just how hard they fúcked us over
If that becomes mainstream knowledge population will start demanding that we sanction Russia
Stick with pussyfooting in Ukraine, it's bigger problem than you seem to be able to handle, last thing you need is to be making extra homework for yourselves right now
Scorpius- Posts : 1472
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If you had been sold then, a country like Serbia would no longer exist.Why not? You already sold us for expired chicken legs and a pat on the back, ammo would just be triviality
All Vucic would need to do is to have TV stations spend couple of weeks reporting on how hard Russians screwed us over and how much weapons they delivered to our enemies and he will get to have his cake and eat it too
Everyone here knows that Russia played us but 90% of people aren't aware of just how hard they fúcked us over
If that becomes mainstream knowledge population will start demanding that we sanction Russia
That's the whole price of brotherhood, isn't it?)))
At first, Yugoslavia behaves like a bitch, not joining the fight against the aggressive NATO bloc and the collective West. As soon as the older brother (USSR) collapsed without strength, the bitch was fucked in a NATO gang rape. History is repeating itself now, but I don't see the lessons learned here.
Vucic behaves exactly like previously fucked assholes: Gorbachev, Milosevic, Yanukovych. Do you still think that licking the shoes of Western masters is the way to happiness? Well, then you definitely deserve everything they will do to you next.
I'm just talking to you in your own language, man. Try your recipe yourself.
I don't recall anyone from Yugoslavia worrying about the Russians in 1993, when we were literally starving to death.
It is unlikely that it will reach you, but in 1999 Russia did what it could with what it had. Despite the fact that the majority of our population then believed that this was not enough.
In any case, this shit has already gone far enough. I think I'm done here. I repeat once again: the Serbian government will eventually bend to the West and stand up against Russia. But I still won't blame the population of Serbia for this. Just an unpleasant prophecy for the future.
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flamming_python- Posts : 9042
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Every single NATO government changed since the 90s, should we be forgiving them as well?
Of course not, they're still in NATO aren't they?
They haven't recognized the error and corruption of their globalist ways and adopted an opposing policy towards dismantling that same NATO instead.
The way you're going on about it though it's as if Russia was part of that same bombing coalition back then.
You hypocrites are still selling oil, gas and uranium to USA but you want us to cut back?
If that oil, gas and uranium was going towards killing Serbians you would be in your right to ask for it to be cut back, given that otherwise it would be quite the unfriendly gesture to keep selling it wouldn't it now.
Care to cover the losses if we cut back?
How about the princely sum of $0, from that Simpsons episode?
You whine that Serbia can't sell ammo to Russia else it would be crushed, but then demand compensation for cutting ammo supplies to NATO?
And I'm not talking about some hunting rifle ammo here, just so cavity emptor doesn't get his panties in a twist, but the good stuff; if any is indeed being sold.
All Vucic would need to do is to have TV stations spend couple of weeks reporting on how hard Russians screwed us over and how much weapons they delivered to our enemies and he will get to have his cake and eat it too
Everyone here knows that Russia played us but 90% of people aren't aware of just how hard they fúcked us over
If that becomes mainstream knowledge population will start demanding that we sanction Russia
Tell him to go right ahead, I'd be interested in hearing this too, and about the aircraft parts that Russia according to you is withholding from Serbia.
Stick with pussyfooting in Ukraine, it's bigger problem than you seem to be able to handle, last thing you need is to be making extra homework for yourselves right now
I don't know what problems are on the Kremlin's list and in what order they will decide to handle things.
But speaking from my perspective, it's a problem. You're asking people to turn a blind eye to you turning a blind eye to Serbian companies supplying war material to NATO.
There are countries such as Argentina, Brazil and others we have far lesser ties, than with Serbia - yet they have refused all US efforts to persuade them to sell anything to the Ukraine.
It's what Russia should demand from countries simply interested in continuing relations with it, nevermind those that describe themselves as Russian allies.
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Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2424
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PapaDragon wrote:Allow me to simplify it down to Simple Jack level: when you sell something to someone that something stops being yours and it becomes someone else's
If that was true there would not have been so many limitations on the sale of intermediate range missiles or in technology for ballistic missiles.
Serbia unfortunately is going through the same path as Armenia. You can see how good for them has been being a bitch to the west and do their best to alienate russian support. I do not like Azeri policies and they have been also horrible in the war two years ago, in addition of being basically turkey's proxy, but Azerbaijan has been much less hostile to Russia than Armenia in the recent past.
I hope that Serbia will not repeat the same mistake. They still have the time to correct their direction before it is too late, otherwise they will lose even more (not because of Russia, but because of their new masters, and Russia will just be a neutral spectator)
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13285
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Scorpius wrote:At first, Yugoslavia behaves like a bitch, not joining the fight against the aggressive NATO bloc and the collective West.
You are free to take that complaint to Yugoslavia and your Croat who was running that place
Same one you sacrificed Serbia for in order to to get him into power and one who afterwards went rogue and sided with West
Scorpius wrote:I don't recall anyone from Yugoslavia worrying about the Russians in 1993, when we were literally starving to death.
Oh yeah because we were living easy and getting fat over here back in 1993
Also, why were you starving?
You had land, resources, population, military and full size nuclear deterrent
How did you manage to end up in that situation with all those things at your disposal?
flamming_python wrote:If that oil, gas and uranium was going towards killing Serbians...
It's going towards killing Russians so like I keep saying, you have bigger problems than Serbia exporting ammo to countries which aren't allowed to resell it
flamming_python wrote:There are countries such as Argentina, Brazil and others we have far lesser ties, than with Serbia - yet they have refused all US efforts to persuade them to sell anything to the Ukraine.
Trust me, we would love nothing more than to swap locations with Argentina and Brazil
It would make acting tough much easier
caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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@Scorpius
If you had been sold then, a country like Serbia would no longer exist.
As PD put it, Russia sold us for some loans and truck load of frozen chicken wings. And "taking over" of Pristina airport in '99, was made possible by our government and army and Russia used it just to get a better deal in a classic horse trading that ensued (read, more loans).
Scorpius
At first, Yugoslavia behaves like a bitch, not joining the fight against the aggressive NATO bloc and the collective West. As soon as the older brother (USSR) collapsed without strength, the bitch was fucked in a NATO gang rape. History is repeating itself now, but I don't see the lessons learned here.
There was something called Resolution of Informbiro in 1948, pushed by Stalin. Because, i see that history is not your forte and that you're trying to create some sort of parallel reality.
Scorpius
I don't recall anyone from Yugoslavia worrying about the Russians in 1993, when we were literally starving to death.
Yes, because we didn't have a civil war raging, international sanctions ( for which Russia voted), record high inflation not to mention thieving and treasonous regime . What was your excuse for completely idiotic policies?
And starving to death in one of the resource richest countries in the world is quite a feat, i have to say.
At least, FP being the spin doctor that he is ( don't mean this in a bad way), knows when to open his mouth and when to shut up. You on the other hand...
@Flamming python
Any opinion on the provided links on Russia help to Croatia? If you want, i can translate juicy parts and graphics so it makes it easier for you.
With all this said, i understand your precarious situation and all that it brings, but blaming Serbia for few hundred missiles that got smuggled through intermediaries, while you have enough internal problems in the country that are being pushed under the carpet, seems very cynical to me.
Arkanghelsk- Posts : 3600
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Guess it's better not to make such a fuss over Kosovo anymore
Maybe in the future we can visit Kosovo like we do to NGK
But smaller countries squabbles won't be our problem , especially ones who sell arms to our enemies
Well look how it turned for Armenia ,
We just have to land the VDV in Serbia before Vucic goes to NATO lol
Maybe in the future we can visit Kosovo like we do to NGK
But smaller countries squabbles won't be our problem , especially ones who sell arms to our enemies
Well look how it turned for Armenia ,
We just have to land the VDV in Serbia before Vucic goes to NATO lol
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flamming_python- Posts : 9042
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Me being a spin doctor?
Bud, it only looks that way because you're the one whose head is spinning
And what provided links?
Get Vucic to broadcast the deets instead please, either in English or Russian, my Serbo-Croatian is not up to scratch I'm afraid - and I prefer digesting my side-information in background noise form directly into my sub conscience, while I'm working on my computer.
Bud, it only looks that way because you're the one whose head is spinning
And what provided links?
Get Vucic to broadcast the deets instead please, either in English or Russian, my Serbo-Croatian is not up to scratch I'm afraid - and I prefer digesting my side-information in background noise form directly into my sub conscience, while I'm working on my computer.
GarryB- Posts : 39068
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The way you're going on about it though it's as if Russia was part of that same bombing coalition back then.
Russia was in no position to do anything practical that would have helped Serbia.
By getting Serbia to sign the ceasefire they thought they would be part of the peacekeeping force which would actually give them some power on the ground, but the west screwed them too.
There are countries such as Argentina, Brazil and others we have far lesser ties, than with Serbia - yet they have refused all US efforts to persuade them to sell anything to the Ukraine.
It's what Russia should demand from countries simply interested in continuing relations with it, nevermind those that describe themselves as Russian allies.
They are not really allies if they have to be asked not to do something that hurts Russia...
Even countries like Turkey have agreed not to supply weapons to either side.
It would make acting tough much easier
They are not acting tough... they are staying out of it... they aren't supplying weapons and ammo to the west, but they are not supplying weapons and ammo to Russia either.
You don't have to side with Russia and suffer for it... all you have to do is what Hungary and Turkey are doing... not support either side and talk about peace talks instead of arming one side to die on the battlefield.
As PD put it, Russia sold us for some loans and truck load of frozen chicken wings. And "taking over" of Pristina airport in '99, was made possible by our government and army and Russia used it just to get a better deal in a classic horse trading that ensued (read, more loans).
Russia tried to be part of the peace process so that at least one group of peacekeepers there would be sympathetic to Serbs, but the west cheated them too.
In the end they got what they could out of the situation... is that any different from what Serbia is doing right now?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13285
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GarryB wrote:They are not acting tough... they are staying out of it...
Relocate Brazil or Argentina to Europe and we'll see how tough they would act and how much they would stay out of it
GarryB wrote:they aren't supplying weapons and ammo to the west, but they are not supplying weapons and ammo to Russia either.
They aren't even making weapons and ammo, they import it
We aren't selling anything to Ukraine and nobody who buys from us has permission to resell it, if they do then it's between them and Russia
It should be enough since Russians have such a boner for iNtErnAtiONaL lAw
GarryB wrote:You don't have to side with Russia and suffer for it... all you have to do is what Hungary and Turkey are doing..
Are you trying to be funny on purpose?
Hungary and Turkey are in NATO, they can do whatever they want
TMA1- Posts : 1131
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Anyone shocked the neocons/neolibs fighting for their existence and will crush all opposition are deluded. Serbs are indeed in a bad spot and I do not harbor ill will for them cowing under pressure. They need to keep their head low. Resist globohomo however they can until open resistance is possible.
But selling weapons to those fighting Russia is a betrayal no doubt for Russians. I think both sides need to empathize with each other and help where they can. As I said this is an ideological battle as it is a battle for the existence of regimes. I remember hearing in a neocon editorial. The guy said "our aims are our values". What does that mean? Well just flip the words around. For neocons their values are their aims. The ends justify the means. To neocons and neolibs it is a zero sum game. You cannot exist as peers beside them. You are either a servant or an enemy.
But selling weapons to those fighting Russia is a betrayal no doubt for Russians. I think both sides need to empathize with each other and help where they can. As I said this is an ideological battle as it is a battle for the existence of regimes. I remember hearing in a neocon editorial. The guy said "our aims are our values". What does that mean? Well just flip the words around. For neocons their values are their aims. The ends justify the means. To neocons and neolibs it is a zero sum game. You cannot exist as peers beside them. You are either a servant or an enemy.
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caveat emptor- Posts : 1776
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You must've been sleeping all last year. Turkey has supplied plenty of weapons to Ukraine. Start with Bayraktar, armoured cars, guided rockets and even cluster bombs. And before US did it, for that.@Garry
Even countries like Turkey have agreed not to supply weapons to either side.
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GarryB- Posts : 39068
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We aren't selling anything to Ukraine and nobody who buys from us has permission to resell it, if they do then it's between them and Russia
So if you are getting them to sign agreements that require your permission to sell these things to other countries then is it Russias responsibility to ensure they follow your contracts with your customers?
How do contracts work exactly?
It should be enough since Russians have such a boner for iNtErnAtiONaL lAw
If they didn't they would just be another US or EU...
Are you trying to be funny on purpose?
Hungary and Turkey are in NATO, they can do whatever they want
Are you joking... they are in HATO and must do as their master tells them or they will be punished... EU funds withheld, lots of serious talks from US ambassadors, no F-35s or F-16s till you do as you are told...
You must've been sleeping all last year. Turkey has supplied plenty of weapons to Ukraine. Start with Bayraktar, armoured cars, guided rockets and even cluster bombs. And before US did it, for that.
Really?
Because they are demanding cluster bombs now from the US, who is refusing... why don't they just get them from Turkey?
And those Bayraktars were already in the Ukraine because after Canada sanctioned Turkey they stopped supplying the engines so Turkey changed to buying Ukrainian engines which is why so many Bayraktars were in the Ukraine. Did the company that make them also sell more to Kiev... possibly... but they were so easy to shoot down I don't think they were important really... the Russian air defence is too strong for such medium sized drones to survive long... they fly too high and are too big to be difficult targets. For lessor air defence forces they would be tricky... too high for MANPADS, and too small for medium sized missiles, but sitting ducks for Pantsir and TOR.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13285
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GarryB wrote:How do contracts work exactly?
The way any end-user contract works
Russia has entire planet delivering weapons to Ukraine so maybe they should do something about that instead of trying to flex on one country which isn't giving weapons to Ukraine
TMA1- Posts : 1131
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Russia is facing the world order. Of course all with some legitimate or illegitimate stake in it will participate against Russia. I think it gets personal though with Serbia and it is pretty clear why.
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