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Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB

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Post n°51

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:27 am

In its current form I don't think it directs its energy up high enough to cover such threats.

Also of course shtora is generally set off by a laser, so neither Javelin or Spike would set it off.

It is getting to the point where tanks will need ESM suites like fighter aircraft...

GarryB

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Post n°52

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:53 am

Actually just looking at this page:

http://kbptula.ru/eng/kbp/news/news015.htm

It looks to me like the new Kornet is actually three new missiles, with their designations being shown as 9M133FM-3 which is the 10km range missile with a HE frag warhead and 320m/s flight speed which in the cross section clearly has the warhead in the front of the missile with presumably a nose mounted proximity sensor and a weight of 33kgs, plus the 9М133М-2 ATGM and 9М133FM guided missile with flight ranges of 8km, flight speeds of 300m/s and missile weights of 31kgs. Note the latter two missiles have rear mounted warheads so I would presume that the HE version does not have a proximity fuse and would be used against soft ground targets, while the HEAT version would be used against armoured targets.

The faster 9M133FM-3 is likely a dedicated surface to air version so the system would not be as dual use as say the Vikhr which has a switch to turn on a proximity fuse to allow use in an air to air role. With the proximity fuse turned off it was detonated with an impact fuse for armour penetration.

It means it is not quite as dual use as first expected as the missiles are either for one purpose or the other.

Mindstorm

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Post n°53

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Mindstorm Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:23 pm

Of the many launches shown none seem to me to have the missile fly any great distance above the line of sight.

At 9:26 of the video that i had previously pointed out,you can clearly obserbe a fire sequence with a Kornet-E guided to a cruise line some meters above the LOS.
As you well know nobody need to point the laser beam of a beam rider weapon like Kornet several meters above its intended target ,at now even with the beam totally coinciding with the line of sight would be almost impossible to receive a warning from the target/guidance sequence ,therefore a laser beam pointed even only some dozen of cm out of the surface area of its target would render it totally untrackable by any LWR at today operative worldwide .
An APC, IFV, or MBT attacked by a Kornet-E ,as well proved in Lebanon in 2006, become usually aware (when it happen)to be under attack tracking the optronic/IR signature of the shooting sequence (or,at much closer range,tracking directly the inbound ATGM directly with the commander/gunner sight-observation system) and ,as you can easily guess, also in this istance,the parameter by far the most important for become aware to be under attack and ascertain the fire position of the enemy become the range from which you are attacked

A weapon is only as good as the tactics employed.

If the Javelin is useless because its range is only 2.5km then Metis-M1 is also useless because its range is 2km. The RPG... whether it is 7 or 29 or a disposable 27 or 28 is not useless either.
Very simply unless the battlefield is a flat open and empty desert there will always be opportunities to attack enemy forces in conventional and unconventional situations.

I agree ,but for completely different motivations (little note : the operational range of FGM-148 Javelin is 2000 m not 2500 m ,like well specified in its same field manual).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-94/appf.htm

In the same line of reasoning you was using here is present the reason at the basis of my assertions : it is not a problem of tactics but of completely different CONOPS connected to completely different class of weapons.
An RPG-29 isn't ,in any way, an "inferior" weapon in respect to a Kornet it is simply a "different" weapon in a completely distinct class.
Physical parameters can aid to distinguish the boundary between a class of weapon and another without being strictly or exclusively linked ,in a bi-univocal way ,to one of the two.
I repeat ,the "mistake" ,if so we can say, is in the naive mind of someone attempting to compare FGM-148 Javelin (a weapon in the same class of M-47 Dragon or Metis-M1) with a Kornet (a weapon in the same class of BGM-71 TOW or Euromissile HOT).
What i have pointed out is that,in a large scale conflict, attempting to employ FGM-148 in the same operative roles planned, by the same US Army ,for a BGM-71 TOW-2 (a weapon designed,from its start, to confront Soviets forces in an immense scale multifront ground offensive in the Great European Plain and which remain,at today, the main anti-tank weapon of actual Brigade combat team's anti-tank segment of US Army) would lead to outcomes simply disastrous ; "tactics" have simply zero to do with that .
Tactics,in fact, have a sense only within the extent of the specific weapon system's CONOPS,anything outside that fall fatally in a pointless death-spiral of low level ,childish, "creative" dissertations.

Once the attacker has opened fire and revealed its position then it comes under attack, but in the case of Spike and Javelin they can leave as soon as they fire their weapons which minimises the risk they take.

Sure, but one more time,only if we talk of weapons in the same class of FGM-148 and in tactical situations and ranges where the employement of a missile in the class of "Javelin" offer any advantage against systems dozen of times cheapers and easy to carry around.
The "fire and forget" capability of FGM-148 is not only cited very often and out of turn in absurd comparations with systems in totally different class (an anti-tanks teams shooting from a fire point 2 - 2,5 km farther is in a tactical position dozen of times safer than an ambush team shooting with a javelin from 1600-1800 m ,well within the engagement footprint of pratically any enemy infantry/mechanized/armoured brigade level weapon ) but also for tactical situations where would become immensely most efficient to employ different class of weapons .
If,as you've already brightly pointed out,return fire is not a problem and you occupy an ambush position, still not detected by your enemy, at very reduced ranges from the opposing forces ,the employement of a weapon like FGM-148 is,in the vast majority of the istances, simply a gold-plated option.
In fact,also if we restrict the field to all russian-built weapons, if the type of target, tactical situation and range involved allow the engagement of your intended targets with Metis-M1 or,even better,RPG-29 or Shmel-M (enjoying a natural "fire and forget" nature and total immunity to soft kill countermeasures),try to employ a Kornet is not only a solution totally wrong but even counterproductive.

The faster 9M133FM-3 is likely a dedicated surface to air version so the system would not be as dual use as say the Vikhr which has a switch to turn on a proximity fuse to allow use in an air to air role.

9M133FM-3 could engage pratically any target except maybe the most armoured (for which the 8 Km capable missile with shaped charge warhead and 1100-1300 mm RHA of penetrative power will be purposely employed).
That likely mean that 9М133FM missile will constitute a minority percentual of Kornet-EM's missile mix ,to use only against specific very strongly armoured targets

Agree. How is Shtora IR jammer effective against Javelin or Spike IIR homing heads? Could it blind them as IR locator in SACLOS ATGMs?

Against a Spike-MR / FGM-148 class threat , the defence offered by Shtora-1 is not linked to its TShU1-7 IR directional jammers ,but to the thermal opaque(0,37 - 14 micron)aerosol screens produced by 3D17 granades.
Good luck at home on a not-export T-90 (even not considering Nakidka !!) masked by a pair of thermal opaque aerosol screens like that at 4:47 of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MvPYHDNlc

TShU1-7 is employed against the flare collimators present in the guidance of BGM-71 TOW amd Euromissile HOT ATGM which ,like already explained ,represent the standard anti-tanks weapons of western ground forces.

GarryB

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Post n°54

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:45 am

At 9:26 of the video that i had previously pointed out,you can clearly obserbe a fire sequence with a Kornet-E guided to a cruise line some meters above the LOS.

I think that part of the video is a computer simulation of the firing sequence.

In the actual test firing of the missile shown in lots of other parts of the video the missile didn't seem to do this.

I don't read or understand Russian... can you understand what is being said in the portion of the video you are referring to?

I don't know, but I suspect that the portion of the video might be an optional method of launching the missile in case there are a lot of obstructions between the launcher and the target. As an added bonus it would also direct the laser beam away from the target so there is no possible way for them to know they are under attack.

Diverging 1mm per metre a laser beam at 10,000m would be 10m across, so aiming 10m above the target not only clears the flight line of the missile so it flys over bushes and other vehicles between the launcher and the target, but it means no laser energy at all will hit the target till the missile is very close.

For total stealth an engagement with the Kornet-M system could begin with detection of the target. The first step of course is to determine the target is within range and that could be done by picking something that is beside the target at the same range but not likely to detect the laser range finder. Once it is determined that the target is within missile range (lets say the target is a light truck, so we select the HE equipped missile (9М133FM) with a range of 8km) and the range is 7.5km but the vehicle is stationary.
The operator will put the crosshair on the centre of the target and fire the missile.

If there are a lot of small trees and bushes a button might be pressed to raise the flight profile to avoid a collision with fences or trees or bushes on the flight to the target.

The operator will do no more than push the button for the different flight profile and then place the crosshairs on the target and push the lock button. The guidance system will then put a box around the truck and start tracking it, so that if it moves it will maintain the box on the target automatically.
The operator then merely needs to press the fire key and the missile will be launched and the laser beam will be activated. Because the button has been pressed to elevate the flight profile the guidance system will maintain the crosshair on the truck but the actual laser beam the missile is flying down will be elevated by several degrees so that the missile flys high.
The flight performance of the missile is known and the range to the target is known so when the missile is 1,000m or 500m from the target the laser can be lowered onto the target, so for 2-3 seconds the target will have a very very faint laser beam shining on it.

The earlier laser emissions to range the target probably reflected more laser energy onto the target than the laser missile riding beam does.

I repeat ,the "mistake" ,if so we can say, is in the naive mind of someone attempting to compare FGM-148 Javelin (a weapon in the same class of M-47 Dragon or Metis-M1) with a Kornet (a weapon in the same class of BGM-71 TOW or Euromissile HOT).

Then we agree, Javelin is a stupid and expensive weapon if you think it is a TOW. It is a Metis-M1 class weapon that is still very expensive.

What i have pointed out is that,in a large scale conflict, attempting to employ FGM-148 in the same operative roles planned, by the same US Army ,for a BGM-71 TOW-2 (a weapon designed,from its start, to confront Soviets forces in an immense scale multifront ground offensive in the Great European Plain and which remain,at today, the main anti-tank weapon of actual Brigade combat team's anti-tank segment of US Army) would lead to outcomes simply disastrous ; "tactics" have simply zero to do with that .

But wouldn't you agree that the problem is not the Javelin, but the attempt to use it in a way that was clearly not intended. ie as a TOW.
It is like trying to use an F-16 as a strategic bomber aircraft... it can carry a wide range of air to ground weapon, but lacks the range and weapon capacity to replace a B-52.
Use it as a fighter bomber aircraft and it is a good aircraft.

Sure, but one more time,only if we talk of weapons in the same class of FGM-148 and in tactical situations and ranges where the employement of a missile in the class of "Javelin" offer any advantage against systems dozen of times cheapers and easy to carry around.

I quite agree... and even more telling is that it is expensive because of its fire and forget feature, yet actual operational experience in Afghanistan has shown that the majority of the time it is used against firing positions or buildings rather than heavy armoured vehicles. With such use there is no fire and forget because it can't lock on to a window in a building or the muzzle flash coming from a group of bushes so it would have to be guided manually to the target... just like Metis-M1 or Milan... only they are cheaper.

In fact,also if we restrict the field to all russian-built weapons, if the type of target, tactical situation and range involved allow the engagement of your intended targets with Metis-M1 or,even better,RPG-29 or Shmel-M (enjoying a natural "fire and forget" nature and total immunity to soft kill countermeasures),try to employ a Kornet is not only a solution totally wrong but even counterproductive.

Good point. Note that the latest Shmel has a maxiumum firing range of 1.7km, though of course that would be accurate only for targets like buildings. Aimed range for vehicle sized targets is 800m. And of course there are new systems being developed... there is talk of a guided rocket for the RPG-32 launcher and I have also seen a large launcher on a tripod with a significant optical system attached... the RPG-28 is a large heavy missile so I would expect its replacement will be in the 152mm calibre range and might need a 3 man crew and a light vehicle to move around the battlefield.

9M133FM-3 could engage pratically any target except maybe the most armoured (for which the 8 Km capable missile with shaped charge warhead and 1100-1300 mm RHA of penetrative power will be purposely employed).
That likely mean that 9М133FM missile will constitute a minority percentual of Kornet-EM's missile mix ,to use only against specific very strongly armoured targets

Totally agree. The vast majority of battlefield targets don't need weapons that penetrate over a metre of steel to defeat them. I would think that a new design of HEAT warhead that trades armour penetration performance for under armour effect might be a useful thing... sort of the equivelent of the old Armour Piercing High Explosive rounds they used to have.

Something that will punch a hole in an APC and then explode inside rather than simply punch a hole right through.

Cyberspec

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Post n°55

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:33 pm

Great thread/discussion. Learnt a few things I didn't know about.

GarryB

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Post n°56

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:44 pm

Nice vid here:

http://en.rian.ru/video/20110822/166046562.html

Seems the anti aircraft capacity is aimed at helos and drones.

NationalRus

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Post n°57

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

NationalRus Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:38 pm

well a mounted vesrion is not bad after what 16 years? now....

were is the personal infantary version!

GarryB

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Post n°58

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:17 pm

Actually there has been a mounted version of Kornet for ages... it has a twin launcher and is based on the BMP-3 chassis.

This vehicle based on what appears to be a Tigr-M would be much cheaper and probably mobile enough for most roles.

The main problem for the portable system is that in the 20 year period from 1990 to pretty much 2010 the Russian Army didn't really spend very much money, and they had plenty of ATGMs like KONKURs and FAGOT so there was no urgent need to buy a new system.

Cyberspec

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Post n°59

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:29 am

NationalRus wrote:well a mounted vesrion is not bad after what 16 years? now....

Assuming you actually watched the video you'd realise it's a bit more than just a 'mounted' version...it doesn't take rocket science to put a ATGW on a jeep.

GarryB

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Post n°60

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:24 am

Indeed, the launcher is about 30kgs with the old thermal sight about 10kgs and each missile another 33kg each, this is not a METIS-M1 where three men can carry the launcher, the tripod and 5 missiles.

Some sort of vehicle is a necessity if it is to be mobile on the battlefield.

The thing about this system is its simplicity... open the console and push a button to deploy the launcher. Use the joystick to move the crosshairs to the target and then push the track button to lock the system onto the target. Then when you want to engage press the fire button.
If the target starts moving the system will automatically retain lock and follow the target.
The operator can deploy the other launcher and engage another target or the same target with a second missile. When the missile/missiles impact the target the launcher/s can be retracted and the vehicle on the move to a different launch position in minutes.

Cyberspec

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Post n°61

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:34 am

I did a bit of reading on the Kornet and came up with some interesting info...

Apparently, there is a sight (1PN80 - Kornet-TS) that enables the Kornet to target through a smoke curtain. Normally that should break the laser targeting.

For the version of the complex " Kornet", intended for the Russian army has TPV sight 1PN80" Cornet-TS ", which allows you to fire not only at night, but the use in conditions of enemy combat smoke. Target detection range for a tank-type target is 5000 meters. Target recognition at 3500 m.

http://www.btvt.narod.ru/4/kornet.htm

GarryB

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Post n°62

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:22 am

Smoke is very bad for standard semi active laser homing (SALH) guidance because the laser has to travel to the target and be reflected brightly enough for the seeker on the missile on the launch platform to be able to see it clearly. This means that if the laser is mounted on the launcher that the laser has to travel double the distance to the target to the seeker.

Things like smoke and rain will of course effect the beam and reduce range dramatically because any smoke the laser actually has to travel through twice... once on the way to the target and again as it reflects through the smoke back to the missile seeker.

The laser beam riding guidance of the Kornet however, although it uses a much less powerful laser the seeker on the missile is looking directly at the laser emitter so any smoke will have less effect.

Also you have to keep in mind that humans can't see through smoke because we see visible light. The lasers we are talking about are not visible lasers and use IR frequency light and at specific frequencies IR light might pass through smoke more easily than visible light so light that blocks human vision might not be a problem for these lasers.

Note that a major user of thermal imagers (which see IR frequencies) is the fire brigade because at night in total darkness in a smoke filled room where even with a torch you couldn't see your hand in front of your face, with a thermal sight they can find people and animals and fire hotspots.

Note this applies to natural smoke rather than the smoke generated by smoke grenades fired by tanks etc that have smoke formulated to block IR light as well.

In this case however such smokescreens take a few seconds to fully develop and for the first few metres the missile will likely still see its laser. At 300m/s it will likely only be in the smoke for half a second and would probably impact the target anyway even if it loses contact with the laser beam in the last few seconds.

For a SALH a tank firing smoke is a problem because the laser spot will be on the smoke and not the tank.

NationalRus

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Post n°63

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

NationalRus Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:34 pm

Cyberspec wrote:

NationalRus wrote:well a mounted vesrion is not bad after what 16 years? now....

Assuming you actually watched the video you'd realise it's a bit more than just a 'mounted' version...it doesn't take rocket science to put a ATGW on a jeep.

im talking about Fire and Forget ATGMS Rolling Eyes

and we still don't realy have one, now a prototype, limited use and testing... wow its been how long... the first FGM-148 was build in 1989

Cyberspec

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Post n°64

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:03 am

NationalRus wrote:

Cyberspec wrote:

NationalRus wrote:well a mounted vesrion is not bad after what 16 years? now....

Assuming you actually watched the video you'd realise it's a bit more than just a 'mounted' version...it doesn't take rocket science to put a ATGW on a jeep.

im talking about Fire and Forget ATGMS

and we still don't realy have one, now a prototype, limited use and testing... wow its been how long... the first FGM-148 was build in 1989

It's explained nicely in previous posts, but here's a summary again from the link I posted previously....hopefully it will help you understand the KBP perspective (although I doubt it pirat

)

Experts at Tula KBP, despite the fact that successfully completed work on guided missiles which implements the principle of "fire and forget", refused to implement it, in the complex "Cornet". They believe that the ATGM "Cornet" compares favorably with their foreign counterparts.

First of all, it used the principle of "see-shoot" and laser-beam control system, which has resulted in greater maximum range, in contrast to the Western concept of building a long-range anti-tank systems on a "shot - forget", in which anti-tank equipped with a passive homing (GOS) on matrices of charge-coupled devices. The foreign concept has remained unsold fully for several reasons.

For example, the resolution of thermal imaging sight, placed on a mobile carrier, much higher than that of the GOS, so the problem of aquiring the target with GOS to begin with remains technically unsolved. The firing on targets without significant contrast in the far- infrared wavelengths (bunkers, pillboxes, machine gun nests and other engineering structures), impossible, especially in conditions passive optical interference. There are certain problems of scaling the target image to GSN during the missile approach .

The cost of such a missile in 5 - 7 times higher than the corresponding values for anti-tank complex "Cornet".

ATGM "Cornet" is characterized by:

- Simplicity of use - does not require highly qualified personnel.

- Versatility of application, defeats all the targets outside the range of effective return fire of the enemy;

- The laser emission coding allows adjacent systems to deliver crisscross fire at different targets or at one target simultaneously

- high precision combat application, including in adverse weather.

- The possibility of combat application in conditions of electronic and optical noise (for example, provides protection from the effects of "Shtora-1" (Russia), Pomals Piano Violin Mk . L (Israel), in contrast to second-generation anti-tank systems TOW , Milan -2 T , Hot -2 T , "Konkurs" etc., which in these conditions, sharply reduced efficiency due to inoperable direction-finding channels of the missiles);

- Block-modular principle of construction of IP, its low mass and size, versatility of attachment points, making it possible to place it on various vehicles, including jeeps.

http://www.btvt.narod.ru/4/kornet.htm

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Post n°65

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

nightcrawler Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:58 pm

@ 7:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MvPYHDNlc

what is this device called & is it against radio guided ATGMs

@ http://en.rian.ru/video/20110822/166046562.html
They are mistakenly calling it fire-forget...like the not yet developed Hermes

I require other view upon the western claims that Kornet pompous range of 8km(as compared to western ATGMs <5km) is not practical in infantry roles during the battlefield

Cyberspec

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Post n°66

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:06 am

nightcrawler wrote:@ 7:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MvPYHDNlc

what is this device called & is it against radio guided ATGMs

It's an early APS prototype

@ http://en.rian.ru/video/20110822/166046562.html
They are mistakenly calling it fire-forget...like the not yet developed Hermes

It's F&F in the sense that it takes the man out out of the loop after the missile is fired. The Hermes will have several different types of missiles with different ranges - radar, IR, laser guided and cluster munitions....it's not an infantry weapon.

I require other view upon the western claims that Kornet pompous range of 8km(as compared to western ATGMs <5km) is not practical in infantry roles during the battlefield

It's not suited for close range fighting. That's what the Rpg's are for

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Post n°67

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:48 am

what is this device called & is it against radio guided ATGMs

It is SHTORA.

It is used against wire guided missiles.

The way a wire guided missile works is that it has a computer on the launcher and an optical telescope for the operator to look through. It also has what is called a gionometer, which is an IR sensor.

To operate the target is found through the telescope and the operator puts the cross hair on the target and presses a fire button. The missile is launched and it flys towards the target trailing a wire behind it. The computer looks for an IR flare in the tail of the missile and it compares the position of that flare with where the cross hairs are and generates flight commands for the missile to get it on the cross hair. So for example if the missile is high and to the right of the cross hair the gionometer will detect that and the computer will calculate how far from the cross hair it is and send a command for the missile to drop down and turn to the left a bit. The computer continuously monitors the missiles flight and sends commands to keep it on the cross hair... so unless it hit something in the way or runs out of wire or fuel the missile will hit the target.

Obviously any fire on the battlefield could distract the gionometer so they started using an IR light with a wheel with holes punched in it so as the wheel spun in front of the IR light it created a coded IR light so the Gionometer could tell the missile from an IR flare or something burning. Current missiles like Metis-M1 use IR LEDs that flash at a rate the launcher recognises so it is not confused by other sources.

SHTORA simply directs an enormously powerful IR beam at the launcher so that it is like looking at a burning matchstick in front of a WWII searchlight... ie the guidance system loses sight of the missile and can't correct its flight and it misses.

They are mistakenly calling it fire-forget...like the not yet developed Hermes

To continue with wire guided anti tank missiles, the first missiles used a joystick where the operator had to manually fly the missile to the target.
This was very difficult... especially under return fire.
This was called Manual command to line of sight or MCLOS. This was replaced by systems like Milan and TOW and Dragon and Konkurs and Fagot with a system called semi-automatic command to line of sight or SACLOS where the computer controlled the flight commands of the missile and the operater simply market the target with his sight.

This new system is fire and forget in the sense that the operator just presses fire and doesn't need to mark the target. In fact the operator simply finds a target and presses a button to start auto tracking of that target and then presses the fire button to launch a missile at the target. That is all they need to do, so it is fire and forget in that sense.

I require other view upon the western claims that Kornet pompous range of 8km(as compared to western ATGMs <5km) is not practical in infantry roles during the battlefield

In any combat you position your resources. You wouldn't put an RPG team on the top of a hill, you'd send them into built up areas where there short range is an advantage.

Equally a system with a range of 8km and an ability to shoot down low aircraft needs to be somewhere where its range can be used... it could be the top of a hill overlooking the village you are about to attack in Afghanistan or it could be near an outpost in a position where it can be used on any vehicle travelling down a long stretch of road etc etc.

In mountains and flat steppes and desert and open areas the range would be incredibly valuable because you can often see very long distances.

Equally its long range means it would be ideal for use on UCAVs.

Imagine a large raging river you need to cross with your convoy and just as your first vehicle approaches the end of the bridge it explodes. A mine is suspected so soldiers go forward to have a look and there is nothing. With a single shot from a small hill 7-8km away you have blocked a bridge with 70 tons of dead weight.

This could be a shoot and scoot attack or the start of a full on ambush... or the plan could be as the enemy moves forward to assist the tank that went over first you take down the bridge with underwater charges on the main supports.

In conventional war it means you can start firing at them before they can start firing at you... it wont always be useful but sometimes it will give you a clear advantage.

Even if you only use it for shooting down enemy UAVs it is cheap and not effected by the low IR or low radar signature of the target. In Georgia they had to use BUK to shoot down some drones because the IR signature was too small for MANPADS and they flew too high for ZU-23s.

It's not suited for close range fighting. That's what the Rpg's are for

Yes. portable RPGs both reusable and disposable are used out to about 500-600m with the RPG-32 getting guided rockets in the near future and RPG-29 perhaps being replaced with a new model with guidance as well. Then they have Metis-M1 out to 2km. They had Kornet next to 5.5km but now they have extended it reach without increasing the missile cost to 8km.

From what I have read the Hermes will come in a range of types and will be unified with the SA-22 SAM. The Hermes version will have a range of options including MMW radar seeker, IIR seeker, semi active laser homing, and GLONASS guided for fixed targets.

Mindstorm

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Post n°68

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Mindstorm Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:54 pm

@ http://en.rian.ru/video/20110822/166046562.html
They are mistakenly calling it fire-forget...like the not yet developed Hermes

I require other view upon the western claims that Kornet pompous range of 8km(as compared to western ATGMs <5km) is not practical in infantry roles during the battlefield

nightcrawler i will begin with the less important question among those at which i must respond ...ok?

1) The concept of "fire and forget" has nothing to do with weapon self guidiance (this,in fact,represent only one of the means to achieve the goal), but with the capability offered by some weapon systems to don't require any further effort by part of the human operator after the fire sequence's completion.

Kornet-EM (which,i remember to you,in spite of its impressive capabilities, is anexport version of a system,for internal usage,surely significatively superior...) is indeed a fire and forget weapon ; rather, in its infantry tripod version even the classical concept of "fire and forget" become a denigration of the capabilities offered by this new improved export version of Kornet.
Thanks to its very advanced automomous target guidance/following system (a first worldwide) the tripod can be remotely controlled !!

"It also makes it possible to use its stand-alone (tripod) version which can be controlled remotely." (from KBP presentation of the system)

That,among the other things, mean that the operating team not only can move after the fire sequence (a process,obviously, not requiring any cooling time to wait for IR FCA to reach the right temperature Laughing

) but would be in a remote position from the launching unit and probably well hided even before the Kornet-EM shooting sequence !!!
And that is not all; this single sqaud could,at this point, reach the position of another tripod launcher previously prepared, designate another target -always controling the system from remote and without any exposition even only to choose the target- ,and eveade another time ,letting the automatic guidance do its work (KBP say that capability of the robotic system to follow or reacquire a target,even an high mobile/agile/fast one, is five times those of a well trained human operator of classical Kornet !!); all of that for a weapon capable to engage at 10 km of range ,pratically any modern battlefield asset -with the only exception of very fast fixed wing aircrfat, and very heavily armoured targets engaged instead at 8 km - , with an impressive missile's speed and even equipable with a thermobaric warhead for engage type of targets simply impossible for other system in the same class.
Pratically this improved export version is litterally on another planet,in respect to any other systems in the same category offered on the international market at today worldwide .....and ,as we well know, the system offered by other producer,western ones in particualar,for internetional buyers don't have an "export version" at all !!!

2) You lose your time for try to respond to an horribly biased and comically ignorant kid like the guy -a certain 500- in the topic (on another site) you have pointed to me ,when you should,at maximum, "use " it for make some laughts with friends while exposing ,one after the other, the galactical idiocies it utter while attempting pathetically to "promote" hopelessly its beloved Spike family of ATGM Laughing

.

That is a little extract from the gallery of horrors of this comical guy :For start a titanical idiocy not specifically related to the subject in wiestion:

-

" Laser that does not irradiate. You are really genius "

Ah Ah Ah !!!! What legendary ignorant !!! Laser ,or Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation , is nothing more than a coherent radiation in a specific wavelenght segment of electromagnetic spectrum, nothing less nothing more; therefore target surface irradiation by part of a laser beam ,like a laser range finder do, is not only obviously existing but is even the only correct physical definition of the phenomenon in question !!! Incredible ,and this authenticate decerebrated toad got also the face to belittle its interlocutor Shocked

Another poster say: "What? how is it (Kornet) not man portable? it is carried in infantry formations the same as the rest." and now the response of our 500 :

-

"Kornet missiles weights 29 kg, Spike ER - 13 kg. See the difference? Or u still believe they are same class??"

Ah Ah Ah ...Oh yes anyone at world see the difference ,above all because the weight of Spike-ER is ....34 kg

www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/3/923.pdf

Not only but its launch canister is also about 1,70 m in lenght (167 cm )!!!! Oh yes anyone at world see the difference. Razz

- Let me clarify for u:

2) Spike ER is in same class with Kornet and Kornet-D. Spike again is clearly superior here.

I have laughed for half an hour (i am serious) reading that monstrous idiocy . This poster must be an unaware comical genius.
Oh yes it has clarified one time for all to be one of the greater intellectually dishonest, presumptuous ignorant on the Earth !!!
Spike-ER is a missile employable only on vehicles (for the self eveident parametrical reasons i have point previously that this idiot evidently ignore),moreover Spike-ER, like the rest of its sick family,is an authenticate turtle with a speed of the missile of about ......130-140 m/s !!!! Ah Ah Ah (That is the Pulcinella's secret for this abortive family of missile to reach at least a decent operative range) , image that a Spike missile is so slow that ,virtually, it fall perfectly among the target engageable by Kornet-EM !!!
That don't only mean ,obviously, that a spike missile is a very easy job for any hard kill active defence system (like you well know little increase in speed produce exponentially faster decreases in probability of intercept) and a very easy target even for outdated SHORAD elements ,also in reason of the Spike's lofted trajectory which render not only target designationand interception dozen of times easier but increase even more the time of arrival to its intended target, but would offer to enemy target also more than double of the time,in respect to Kornet-EM (an enormous area) for search a batllefield element (a big rock , a group of trees, a buiding etc..etc..) to interpose between it and the inbound missile ,or to employ soft kill inbuilt or "improvised" countermeasures like putting at 25-30 meters an IR opaque aerosol of Shtora-1's 3D17 grenades (naturally completely useless against a beam rider Kornet-E/EM coming at 270/300 m/s) or entering a near river or irrigation channel among self produced smoke screen etc..etc..
Spike missile family moreover, like any other weapon relying on missile seeker for target designation and boundary's discrimination (obviously inherently limited by unavoidable physical costraints)is not only very costly but need also a target with clear contrast in order to obtain a reliable lock and that is the main motivation for the clamorous failure of Spike ATGM in the Indian trials.
Naturally not only Kornet/Kornet-EM enjoy an huge kinematical advantage (both in range and speed)and destructive power on Spike family corresponding (even not taking into account that Spike-ER is only vehicle-mounted ...),but the type of different battlefield targets them can engage from vast stand off range (bunkers,helicopters,budings,UAV,CAS aircraft,IFV,machine gun nests,enemy infantry anti-tanks teams etc..etc..)put Kornet-E/EM simply on a significantly higher level of effciency in a conflict between peer opponents.

Last edited by Mindstorm on Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:29 am; edited 2 times in total

Cyberspec

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Post n°69

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Cyberspec Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:26 am

The only deficiency of the Kornet-D(EM) is the lack of a top attack missile....it would be good to add that option to the package.

But apparently, apart from the L-R Hermes system, they're working on a close range RPG style weapon (produced by http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/) which will have a top-attack missile as an option. There's next to nothing information on it but I dug this up on a Russian Forum:

(rough translation of the original)

Development of short range anti-tank system with autonomous control system "Autonomy"

complex "Autonomy" combines the best features of RPG anti-tank grenades - simple construction, high jamming immunity, the implementation of the principle of "fire and forget" and guided anti-tank systems - high probability of hitting, powerful warhead .
The system enables the a defeat tanks as a direct hit, and from the top (overflying target) through the use of the warhead. The missile control system has a autopilot angular stabilization with high gas-jet rudders, interacting with a supersonic stream Ragon engine.

Specifications:

-Range - 350 m (both versions)

Warhead weight:
- "standard" version (version 1) - tandem shaped-charge - 5.2 kg
- "top-attack" version (version 2) - 8,5 kg
- explosive-fragmentation warhead - 8.5 kg

weight of rocket
- version 1 - 10 kg
- version 2 - 15 kg

Length of rocket
- version 1 - 1000 mm
- version 2 - 1250 mm

Weight of the complex in the firing position
- option 1 - 14.5 kg
- option 2 - 19.5 kg

Developer – TSNIITOCHMASH

GarryB

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Post n°70

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:45 am

With a range of 8-10km the attacker will have a choice of where to position his launchers for best effect.

It is normal to position such systems to attack the flank of an enemy force, or for example position them in conjunction with a minefield.

A mine on its own is not a great weapon as you need to lay lots of them to ensure you get a good chance of hitting tanks, but once one vehicle runs over a mine the enemy will often stop and try to find the extent of the minefield and then drive around it, or bring up anti mine equipment and make paths through it.

The best use of a mine field is to cover it with Machine guns and snipers so the enemy can't just send soldiers forward to clear a path. Equally the enemy armour force can either send a tank with mine rollers through to clear a path or the whole unit can turn and try to go around the mine field. If they turn then you can shoot at their vulnerable side armour with missiles and concealed guns/tanks. If they clear a path destroying the front tank with the rollers and the last vehicle in the column will trap the other vehicles that can either sit and draw fire or turn and risk running over a mine.

What I an trying to say is that frontal attacks with just ATGMs would be very rare... and not as easy as KBP would suggest as the first reaction to missiles coming in from long range would be to send out scouts to find where the fire is coming from and then target that area with artillery... just as any Russian tank unit not equipped with modern TI sights that suddenly found TOWs arriving from 4km away at night.

Thanks for that info on Autonomy Cyberspec.
I have seen what looks like an RPG-29, but with a fixed tripod and a large guidance/seeker box thing. This might be a further development of that.

They have also talked about guided rockets for the RPG-32, and of course there is that new system called Baikal that they have not released details of yet.

Austin

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Post n°71

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

Austin Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:33 pm

Ok guys details on Kornet-EM from horses mouth Smile

NEW CAPABILITIES OF ATGM SYSTEMS
Military Parade, No. 4, 2011

Author: Igor Stepanichev, Arkady Shipunov, Lev Zakharov

Igor Stepanichev - Acting Director General of KBP Instrument Design Bureau

Arkady Shipunov - First Deputy General Director - Head of Research

Lev Zakharov - Chief designer in charge of subject area

Antitank guided missile (ATGM) systems have been developed and manufactured around the world for more than half a century. Over this time they have become the most popular and in-demand type of precision guided weapons, due to their ease of use and relatively low cost.

Nowadays, ATGM systems are effectively used not only to destroy tanks, but also to engage a wide range of other small targets: enemy lightly armored and soft-skin vehicles, various fortifications, manpower, and infrastructure elements.

The third-generation Kornet-E system featuring a laser-beam riding guidance system, developed by the KBP Instrument Design Bureau and adopted in 1998, was the first ATGM system offering complete ECM immunity and the capability of firing from mobile carriers (platforms). Currently, the Kornet-E ATGM system with a firing range of 5,500 m is the most advanced model of a multipurpose close assault weapon. Its missile load includes missiles with a tandem HEAT warhead designed primarily to engage heavily protected targets (tanks, bunkers, etc.) and missiles with HE warheads intended to defeat a wide spectrum of targets posing a threat on the battlefield.

A future ATGM system must be a versatile defensive/assault guided weapon capable of handling a wide range of missions in the close-in zone under various combat conditions, moreover available both in portable and vehicular versions.

At MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon, KBP will exhibit its in-house developed Kornet-EM multipurpose missile system meeting the current requirements for a future ATGM system, owing to the use of advanced engineering solutions which have given it a number of new qualities.

The use of machine vision with a target autotracker removes the human from the ATGM guidance process, thus actually implementing the "fire and forget" concept, without using expensive seekers in the missile. At the same time the target tracking accuracy under real combat conditions increases up to 5 times and a high hit probability is achieved throughout the entire range envelope of the ATGM system, which is twice the range of the Kornet-E.

The capability to engage targets in automatic mode reduces the psychophysical load of operators, mitigates requirements for their qualifications, and at the same time cuts their training time.

The modular design concept traditional for the Kornet family allows the installation of one or two automatic missile launchers on a wide range of relatively inexpensive small vehicles of various origin (the weight of one-and two-launcher versions of the weapon system together with missile load is 0.8 and 1.2 tons, respectively) with a remote control option.

Basic specifications of the Kornet-EM system

Firing range -- 50 - 10,000 m

Guidance system -- automatic, laser beam riding guidance

Jamming immunity -- high

Number of targets engaged simultaneously by a savo -- 2

Armor penetration of HEAT warhead -- 1100-1300 mm

TNT equivalent of HE warhead -- 7 kg

Missile load -- 16 pcs

including ready-to-fire missiles -- 8

The proposed variant of a combat vehicle with two launchers provides salvo firing against two targets, thus significantly increasing the rate of fire and firing capabilities of the ATGM system. Like the Kornet-E, the Kornet-EM has retained the capability for salvo firing of two missiles in one beam against one target to penetrate active protection systems.

Increase in firing range up to 10 km and hit accuracy, the implementation of auto-tracking making it possible to track not only slow ground targets, but also higher-speed objects, have made the Kornet-EM capable of accomplishing a mission that is essentially new for the ATGM system - engagement of small aerial targets (helicopters, UAVs and attacking ground-attack aircraft).

The effectiveness of the Kornet-EM system against aerial targets is achieved through a combination of a precision automatic guidance system and a guided missile with a thermobaric warhead equipped with impact and proximity target sensors (ITS and PTS).

The proximity sensor guarantees reliable engagement of an aerial target at all firing ranges. Combined with a powerful HE warhead, the PTS compensates possible misses through effective destruction of an UAV or a helicopter by overpressure.

The maximum firing range of 10 km range gives the ATGM system an advantage when engaging helicopters - this makes it possible to fire at ranges exceeding the range of enemy weapons.

The Kornet-EM system includes:

- combat vehicle with two automatic launchers and operator's panel with a display;

- automatic launcher carrying four ready-to-fire guided missiles and fitted with a TV/thermal imaging sight incorporating high-resolution TV cameras and a 3rd Gen. thermal imager, a built-in laser rangefinder and a laser missile guidance channel as well as an automatic target tracker with laying servos;

- guided missile with a HE warhead with impact and proximity sensors having the firing range of up to 10 km;

- anti-tank guided missile with a maximum range of up to 8 km and a HEAT warhead with armor penetration of 1100 to 1300 mm, which gives the Kornet-EM the capability of defeating current and future tanks, given the tendency to growth in their armor protection.

The Kornet-EM missiles can be used for firing from a 9P163M-2 portable launcher with an optical channel of variable power (12x and 20x) equipped with a 3rd Gen thermal sight.

Comparative performance analysis of the Kornet-EM system and its foreign counterparts suggests that the former is superior to fire-and-forget systems 3 to 5 times in terms of combat efficiency when accomplishing missions traditional for ATGM systems, being at the same time simpler in use and maintenance and employing 3 to 4 times cheaper missiles, which are an expendable component of the system and largely determine its operating costs in troops.

At MAKS 2011 International Aviation and Space Salon, KBP will exhibit its in-house developed Kornet-EM multipurpose missile system meeting the current requirements for a future ATGM system, owing to the use of advanced engineering solutions which have given it a number of new qualities.

Flight range -- 150 - 10,000 m

TNT equivalent -- 7 kg

Target sensor -- impact and proximity

Max flight speed -- 320 m/s

Weight with the container -- 33 kg

Container length -- 1210 mm

Flight range -- 150 - 8,000 m

Armor penetration -- 1100 - 1300 mm

Max speed -- 300 m/s

Weight (with the container) -- 31 kg

Container length -- 1210 mm

GarryB

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Post n°72

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:34 am

Top attack doesn't need to be complicated or expensive... a downward firing warhead plus a simple sensor that detects large metal objects and a timer.

Using Kornet as a basis... it has a laser for the missile to ride and presumably a laser range finder to make sure the target is within range.

A few simple calculations will give you a quite accurate flight time to target figure that can be used to prevent other objects setting off the warhead.

Say the target is 2,500m away and that equals a flight time of 7.8 seconds with a missile flight speed of 320m/s. That simply means that a warhead that is triggered by passing over large metal objects could be set to arm after 7.2 seconds so any metal object on the way will not prematurely set off the warhead... and then launch the missile and the laser beam the missile rides could be set a few metres above the tank. If it is flying at 320m/s that means at 0.6 x 320 = 192m short of the tank, or 2,308m from the launcher, the warhead will arm and any significant metal object the missile passes over will set off the warhead leading to a powerful downward HEAT blast.

Worked for BILL2.

KRATOS1133

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Post n°73

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

KRATOS1133 Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

GarryB

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Post n°74

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

GarryB Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:23 am

Nice pics, though you should include a link back to Vitalys website when you post them here.

Actually just thinking about the physics of things putting these Kornet missiles on high flying UCAVs might result in top attack impacts.

A laser beam riding missile can be fired and controlled from a moving platform.

We know this because that is one of the improvements of the BMP-2 upgrade as the Kornet missiles can be fired on the move unlike the previous generation Fagot and Konkurs that were both wire draggers.

However when an aircraft fires a laser beam riding missile if it is flying closer and closer to the target but not descending then the angle of the laser will get steeper and steeper meaning that a missile fired from 4km up and 4km away from the tank horizontally will not just fly down the 45 degree angle beam to hit the target, as the launch aircraft closes on the target the beam angle will get steeper and steeper and while the missile itself will fly a shallower flight trajectory than the laser beam as it closes on the target its angle of attack will get steeper and steeper.

In other words as the UCAV flys forward the angle will start at 45 degrees and when the UCAV is directly above the target the angle will be vertical 90 degrees straight down.

The missile is supersonic however and in this sort of diving profile will probably impact at more than its normal flight speed so the missile will likely hit the target well before the UCAV gets above the target.

Assuming the UCAV gets to 3km away from the target when the missile hits, that results in a right angle triangle 3km by 4km by xkm. The third side is a laser beam so it will be straight (unlike the missiles actual path), so a bit of basic maths says 3x3 plus 4x4 equals xxx... or 9 + 16 = 25 which means x is 5km so the laser beam will be steeper than 45 degrees.

medo

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Post n°75

Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

medo Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:40 pm

Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 3 6f3c9910

Picture of Krizanthema-S from N. Tagil exhibition. It have different optical sight than prototype with two windows, so it could also have TI night channel inside. This give to Krizanthema day/night capabilities in both radar and laser guidance modes.

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