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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 16, 2018 2:37 am

    Ataka was modernised to enable its wider use on platforms... originally it was only used on the Hind, which already had the command antenna for controlling the missile as it was also used for the Shturm that preceded it.

    The Mi-28 also had the nose thimble for controlling ataka and shturm missiles, and there was a small light patrol boat that also had Shturm/Ataka launchers and a thimble mounted on the mast to control the missile.

    It was light and cheap and quite accurate with a decent little punch.

    Now however shturm is largely used up and the replacement for ataka has arrived in the form of the Krisantema... my initial understanding of the Kris is that it was SARH where a pencil radar beam is directed at the target and the missile homes in on the reflections... but there is obviously no nose mounted radar sensing antenna in the missiles so I rather suspect there is a tail mounted radar beam sensor and that it probably works like a laser beam homing missile... it looks back at the launch platform to sense its position in the beam and manouvers itself to centre itself.

    If that is the case then to carry both the Krisantema and the Ataka, you would need three types of guidance options... the radio command thimble, a radar, and a laser beam for a laser beam riding missile.

    By converting the ataka to laser beam riding as well as radio command guidance it means all current uses of the ataka can continue to use it, while new systems that don't have the command guidance thimble like the BMPT Terminator and the Mi-28NM can operate both ataka and krisantema... with laser beam riding... which seems to be pretty standard on most new and upgraded Russian aircraft and armoured vehicles, or radar tracking like the new helos... and interesting to note the new UAVs that will operate tethered to Russian armoured vehicles include thermal and radar... perhaps UAV deployment will extend to guiding ATGMs from standoff ranges.

    Such missiles are certainly ideal for UCAV use as they are fast and pack a decent punch with good accuracy and relatively low cost.
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    dino00

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  dino00 on Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:51 am

    Russian ATGM "Cornet" will be able to attack the tanks from above, as American Javelin

    The peculiarity of such ATGM is that the ammunition makes a "slide" and strikes an armored vehicle from above, where the armor of the hull is the thinnest

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5486371

    Misleading title aparently they already can atack from above.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:16 am

    Kornet always flew about 5m above the line of sight to the target... to prevent it flying into bushes or trees or walls etc... it is commanded to fly high until it gets within 1km of the target and then it drops down to the line of sight... it probably has the extra advantage of having the sensor not having to look through 5km of rocket engine exhaust fumes...

    Potentially instead of commanding the missile to drop 1km before impact, you could command it to drop 5m at the last second... or indeed having it climb higher...

    The tricky thing is that the Javelin is moving at subsonic speed, while Kornet is supersonic... but I am sure the computer control system will manage...
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:02 am

    GarryB wrote:Kornet always flew about 5m above the line of sight to the target... to prevent it flying into bushes or trees or walls etc... it is commanded to fly high until it gets within 1km of the target and then it drops down to the line of sight... it probably has the extra advantage of having the sensor not having to look through 5km of rocket engine exhaust fumes...

    Potentially instead of commanding the missile to drop 1km before impact, you could command it to drop 5m at the last second... or indeed having it climb higher...

    The tricky thing is that the Javelin is moving at subsonic speed, while Kornet is supersonic... but I am sure the computer control system will manage...

    It doesn't know what distance is the target to have a top attack mode. Doing it manualy is just impossible at such distances.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:51 am

    It doesn't know what distance is the target to have a top attack mode. Doing it manualy is just impossible at such distances.

    Why would it not know the distance to the target?

    How does it know the target is within range?

    It is already pointing a laser at the target for the missile to fly down.

    If it does not know the distance to the target how could it possibly have the missile fly 5m above the line of sight until it is 1km away from the target... how would it know when it is 1km away from the target?

    It does not need to alert the target by lasing it... it could look beside the target for something 50m away but the same distance and lase that to get range information...
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    0nillie0

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  0nillie0 on Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:54 am

    I would like to introduce a topic of discussion regarding integration of ATGM's on vehicles such BMPT or infantry fighting vehicles.

    We have seen recently that the first examples of BMPT (entering service now ), T-15, B-11 "Kurganets" IFV, and others are equipped with externally mounted ATGM's. This is a tradition carried over from "Berezhok" turret and before that from the BMP-1 and BMP-2. Modern dedicated tank destroyers such as 9P157-2 however always carry the missiles inside the hull. Recent vehicles such as BMPT have the missiles covered by a thin layer of what appears to be sheet metal at worst, or some stronger composite at best. We see also in the "prototype" turret of the 57mm weapon complex installed on T-15 at Army 2018, again externally mounted ATGM's with no cover or protection. We have seen a retractable launcher for Bulat ATGM in concepts, but AFAIK not much is known about this family of weapons, nor has the turret even reached prototype stage.

    Would it not make more sense to develop a turret with a retractable launcher as seen in "Tigr-M GAZ-233116", rather than mount ATGM's relatively unprotected carried outside the turret at all times?
    The nature of the typical ATGM's carried by aforementioned vehicles is such that they are quite rugged and stored in sealed canisters as opposed to some Western ATGM's, but still i wonder. Also i realize that the missiles are installed at the time of entering combat zone, but we have to consider at the very least the following :

    If such vehicles as BMPT have to escort tanks, then they are likely to be under fire from artillery while traveling to front line. I find it hard to imagine that the current way of mounting ATGM's is ideal for transporting under such conditions. The missile's themselves, or the launchers, can be damaged from artillery shrapnel before the vehicle reaches the frontline. I do realize that this is simply part of warfare. A tank gun can also be damaged by shrapnel before it fires its first round. But in the case of ATGM's there is a clearly presented solution already used by vehicles in service.

    Retractable launcher has a downside of being more complex and requiring additional space in the turret, also it takes longer to bring the weapon in a ready to shoot position.
    But advantages are that missiles can be stored inside vehicle for prolonged periods of time, are better protected from shrapnel or mine/IED blasts, and could even be reloaded under armor if designed correctly.
    Also on a more basic level, missiles are less exposed to the environment which can be hostile through climate, or trough advanced electronic warfare ( mostly mitigated by the transport canisters).

    If you take a single retractable launcher of Kornet-D type, which has a capacity of 4 missiles, it does not require as much space in the turret. For larger missiles such as Ataka, this is off course more problematic.
    I think that on a vehicle as T-15 based BMPT, such a feature might be rather more efficient, and hope to see this incorporated in the future turret designs.

    Just my 2 cents on the topic. Feel free to discuss or provide me with some info i did not know.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Hole on Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:36 pm



    There´s a version of the AU-220 turret with an internal launcher, as you can see in the picture.

    The Krizantema-S and Kornet-D and so on are dedicated tank hunters. They only got ATGM´s. And no infantry to transport. That´s why they have more complex launchers.

    The Berezhok and Epocha turrets are for AIFV´s, the missiles are just a part of their armament. The external launchers are easier and faster to reload. The new launchers are better than the old ones on the BMP-1/-2. Even if a missile is hit by a bullet or shrapnel, i doubt that the warhead or the solid propellant would explode.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:57 pm

    Would it not make more sense to develop a turret with a retractable launcher as seen in "Tigr-M GAZ-233116", rather than mount ATGM's relatively unprotected carried outside the turret at all times?

    ATGM tubes are pretty much the equivalent of a round of ammo... if one gets damaged by small arms fire it is not the end of the world.

    I rather suspect that in every unit there will be a recon vehicle that can detect where the shots are coming from and locate the precise location of the shooter and pass that information to all the vehicles in the force so the threat can be targeted.

    If you have a retracted launcher they will likely just shoot at something else... which would certainly be harder to replace...

    When you need an ATGM it is rather likely that you will need it urgently, so externally mounted ready to fire weapons sound more useful to me... and most launch tubes seem to have light armour over them too.

    But in the case of ATGM's there is a clearly presented solution already used by vehicles in service.

    But as you pointed out... these rounds are on IFVs and APCs so they are a last line of defence... self defence weapon... being Atakas and Kornets they have the enormous advantage over TOWs and HOTs and other such western missiles in that they can be fired on the move, but this is not the primary missile intended to defeat enemy MBTs. In combat it is rather likely it will more often be used against pillboxes and strong points... the real ATGMs will be inside tanks to be fired through their main guns and therefore very well protected, but also inside dedicated ATGM platforms that do have retractable missiles like the Shturm and the Kornet... and the other main sources will be from support vehicles... ie Coalition... Mi-28NM and Ka-52, not to mention UCAVs... and ground units with light ATGMs and RPGs... seriously there will be no shortage of anti armour weapons in a Russian unit.

    Retractable launcher has a downside of being more complex and requiring additional space in the turret, also it takes longer to bring the weapon in a ready to shoot position.
    But advantages are that missiles can be stored inside vehicle for prolonged periods of time, are better protected from shrapnel or mine/IED blasts, and could even be reloaded under armor if designed correctly.
    Also on a more basic level, missiles are less exposed to the environment which can be hostile through climate, or trough advanced electronic warfare ( mostly mitigated by the transport canisters).

    The dedicated anti tank systems have such features... it is the vehicles that only occasionally need ATGMs that have them externally mounted in their launch tubes... which should provide plenty of environmental protection anyway.

    Much of the time a BMP-3 for example would fire a 100mm HE round where a western equivalent would either have to fire its ATGM weapon where its 25-35mm gun is ineffective, so actually the Russians are in a good position in these terms anyway... with 57mm guns able to fire powerful HE rounds, not to mention direct fire 120mm mortar guns...
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:33 pm

    A bit off topic. I can't remember which thread it was when there was a mention of a design of anti tank gun something along the lines of spg-9. I presume that this has came about due to syrian conflict where spg-9, and cheaper ATGW systems proved to be very useful in this type of conflict and prolonged war. Anyone got news on this new anti tank gun (anti armour gun)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:55 am

    I suspect the new system will likely be a special forces weapon that is mobile and relatively cheap, but effective enough against most targets.

    Lets face it... send British troops to the Falklands Islands where the enemy has no tanks, and give them something expensive like Milan and they will happily use it to take out sniper or machine gun positions.

    Now obviously it is better they use Milan missiles rather than a frontal charge on such targets, but having a 1.5km range super RPG with a decent HE round would have been much cheaper, yet still effective.

    If the threat is tanks then Metis-M1 already fits the bill, but against non tank targets it is a bit overkill.

    If there are no enemy tanks then an SPG-9 with HE rounds with delayed fuses could be used on all sorts of targets... including unarmoured vehicles, and light bunkers where the round penetrates into the target before exploding...

    Some of the later engineer rockets they have (RPO, MRO, LRO) can be fired at targets up to 800m or so, but they haven't really got a rocket launcher in that 500-1,500m range... just below the 2km range Metis-M1...

    Of course soon they will also have the 40mm Balkan in a man portable role together perhaps with the 57mm grenade launcher they are developing that could possibly replace 82mm mortars, or at least supplement them.

    But in answer to your question... no, I have not actually heard anything.

    Upgrade for special forces use with all weather optronic sights and new ammo types, is what I would expect.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the new system will likely be a special forces weapon that is mobile and relatively cheap, but effective enough against most targets.

    Lets face it... send British troops to the Falklands Islands where the enemy has no tanks, and give them something expensive like Milan and they will happily use it to take out sniper or machine gun positions.

    Now obviously it is better they use Milan missiles rather than a frontal charge on such targets, but having a 1.5km range super RPG with a decent HE round would have been much cheaper, yet still effective.

    If the threat is tanks then Metis-M1 already fits the bill, but against non tank targets it is a bit overkill.

    If there are no enemy tanks then an SPG-9 with HE rounds with delayed fuses could be used on all sorts of targets... including unarmoured vehicles, and light bunkers where the round penetrates into the target before exploding...

    Some of the later engineer rockets they have (RPO, MRO, LRO) can be fired at targets up to 800m or so, but they haven't really got a rocket launcher in that 500-1,500m range... just below the 2km range Metis-M1...

    Of course soon they will also have the 40mm Balkan in a man portable role together perhaps with the 57mm grenade launcher they are developing that could possibly replace 82mm mortars, or at least supplement them.

    But in answer to your question... no, I have not actually heard anything.

    Upgrade for special forces use with all weather optronic sights and new ammo types, is what I would expect.

    We only have to look at syria for perfect examples but I agree with everything u have said. All I remember was the article wasn't specifically about the gun but about something else and within it mentioned that they would be designing a replacement for spg-9 based on experience from syria
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:43 pm

    Well, there is not much you could make better on that gun. I guess they will use modern optics (night-capable) and new ammunition.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:38 am

    I guess they will use modern optics (night-capable) and new ammunition.

    I think they will go further than just thermal sights... I would expect a ballistic computer calibrated to the weapon so that a point of aim would be generated in the scope and you just put that aim point on the target and fire... rifle scopes already do that...

    I rather doubt this will be a general issue army weapon... most Russian soldiers were driven there by vehicle so that vehicle can deal with point targets 1.5km away quite easily with 30mm cannon shells or 100mm HE frag rounds, or soon 57mm HE shells.

    The value of the SPG9 is its simplicity and range and mobility, with low cost.

    Special forces will love these... especially those working with "freedom fighters", but also mountain troops will also appreciate these too.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:40 am

    Hole wrote:Well, there is not much you could make better on that gun. I guess they will use modern optics (night-capable) and new ammunition.

    Anti tank is anti tank gun lol not complicated lol. But possibly new calibre, lighter system, as u mentioned new rounds and optics. As GarryB said a longer range RPG providing cheap bunker buster and anti armour. I would expect it would do well on export market replacing older systems but also providing countries with a cheap alternative if they can't afford more expensive systems.

    It's quite crazy years ago everyone was getting rid of AA guns anti tank guns and older ATGW as well simple aircraft. Now with current and past warfare has shown us that these cheaper older systems are actually useful for this type of warfare. AT-3/4/5 in the west are deemed out dated as is spg-9. AA guns have found to be very useful at ground attack and even then finding a bit of a come back in anti air role. And finally older tanks and aircraft such as
    T-55, mig-21, mig-23, su-22 have proven still effective for this warfare.

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