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    Austin
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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat May 29, 2010 7:31 pm

    Does Fire and Forget Kornet exists ?

    An old Article from Janes


    JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - DECEMBER 01, 2004

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ]Russia develops fire-and-forget Kornet
    Doug Richardson

    Russia has developed new fire-and-forget versions of the Tula KBP Kornet-E (AT-14) anti-tank missile, writes Doug Richardson. According to former commander-in-chief of the Russian Ground Forces, General of the Army Nikolay Kormiltsev, these are third-generation variants of the missile.

    In an interview given to the Russian military newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda a few weeks before his resignation in late September, Gen Kormiltsev said that the new missiles can be equipped with "a thermal or radio-locating homing head", and could be used against enemy anti-tank missile systems.

    Kornet had become a "powerful and efficient weapon" with many advantages over foreign equivalents, he suggested, and was "very simple to use".

    In its basic form, the Kornet missile is fired from a tripod-mounted single-round firing post designated the 9P163-1. This includes a standard day sighting and guidance device, but can be fitted with a 1PN79-1 thermal-imaging night sight. A 9P163-2 firing post was developed for vehicle-mounted Kornet systems.

    The 9P163-1 missile currently in service is fitted with a tandem high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) warhead, while the 9M133F-1 carries a thermobaric warhead. Both are laser beam-riding missiles that use semi-automatic command to line-of-sight (SACLOS) guidance. The gunner has to keep his sight on the target until the missile impacts.

    With the new third-generation system, the gunner is only required to aim the missile, then give the fire command once lock-on has been obtained.

    The 'thermal' pattern of homing head will be a passive-homing seeker able to detect and home onto the infrared (IR) energy emitted by the target. This would make the third-generation Kornet the first Russian fire-and-forget anti-tank missile. There had been reports that an IR terminal-guidance seeker was developed for the command-guided 9M17 Skorpion (AT-2 'Swatter') but not put into service.

    In Russian military terminology, the phrase 'radio-locating' is normally used to indicate radar. To be useful against tanks and other small tactical targets, an active-radar seeker would have to operate in the millimetric region.

    In the early 1980s, Hughes developed alternative IR and millimetric-wave seekers for the 200 mm-diameter AGM-124 Wasp, while in the 1990s the UK fitted an active-radar millimetric seeker into the 178 mm-diameter Hellfire to create the MBDA Brimstone air-to-surface missile. Russia is known to have studied millimetric guidance systems for missiles, but cramming this technology into the 152 mm fuselage diameter of the Kornet-E would be a difficult undertaking for Russian industry.

    Gen Kormiltsev gave no further details of the upgraded system and did not indicate if it was in service, or if it could be fired from upgraded versions of the current ground and vehicle-mounted firing posts.

    Edit... please do not link to outside forums, a citation from a source like Jane's is good enough

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 30, 2010 7:45 am

    In about 1987 they managed a MMW radar seeker for their top attack guided submunitions for Smerch that was also made avaliable for Grad and also air delivered bomb.
    In the early 1990s they developed a more sophisticated combined IR and MMW radar seeker so that it only attacked targets with an engine running rather than tanks that had been already destroyed some time ago.

    Considering the Kornet is made by KBP, which is also developing the Hermes missile there is certainly good reason to think that they might adapt the terminal seeker for the Hermes to also be available to use on the Kornet.

    The real problem of course is that you need your anti tank missiles to be relatively cheap so you can put them in service in huge numbers and you can buy lots of them so that you can afford to train with them.

    Kornet is relatively cheap and at a max range of 5.5kms it has excellent range and performance.

    If you need all weather capability in dust storms and snow storms they already have the Krisantema, which offers either laser beam riding or SARH or semi active radar homing. In other words the radar on the launch vehicle marks the target for the missile to home in on for the first missile and a second missile can be launched being guided by a laser the same as the Kornet. This means that any target can be engaged whether it is radar reflective or not. A MMW radar is not much use against a log bunker or aiming for a window in a building.
    The radar homing missile is not strictly fire and forget as the launcher has an autotracker that follows a moving target the operator can forget about tracking the target. Laser guided missiles need the operator to manually track the target as far as I know, though they might have a digital video auto tracker to do that too.

    Fire and forget would be nice for the infantry man, but its cost means that it is really only practical for now with helo launched weapons like Hermes where the risk to the helo is rather greater than to that of the soldier.

    Transfering the guidance from the Hermes (which has a calibre of about 210mm, compared with Kornets 152mm) shouldn't be too hard as Hermes is designed to operate at a much greater range (out to 20km in the helo model and 100km in a ground based model flying a ballistic profile).

    The real problem is the extra cost in putting the seeker in the part that explodes rather than putting it in the launch platform to be used over and over.

    If you look at their SAMs, they tend to have dumb commmand guided missiles that are relatively cheap with all the expensive stuff in the vehicles that launch the missiles.
    The Tunguska, the Pantsir, the Tor, the Palma, the Kashtan, the Sosna-R, all use small very fast slim missiles and all with the exception of TOR have a large booster rocket to get it up to speed for extra range. All use cheap missiles with command to line of sight or radar guided guidance.
    By putting the night and all weather sensors on the launch platform the platform becomes expensive (TOR for example has a fully 3D air search radar and phased array tracking and flight command radar that is very sophisticated) but the cost of the missiles are kept low so you can use lots of missiles without breaking the bank.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 30, 2010 8:17 am

    I think this is important:

    In an interview given to the Russian military newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda a few weeks before his resignation in late September, Gen Kormiltsev said that the new missiles can be equipped with "a thermal or radio-locating homing head", and could be used against enemy anti-tank missile systems.

    This suggests they might create a Kornet with terminal homing but keep producing the laser beam riding models as well.
    Against certain targets a fire and forget missile would be ideal, as suggested above against enemy anti tank missile forces that will be at long range.

    Against a sophisticated enemy however who might have jamming equipment for use against optical and IR guided weapons the standard beam riding Kornet would be better and much cheaper.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun May 30, 2010 5:22 pm

    Do we have any confirmation or news from officially may be pictures as well that Kornet Fire and Forget does exist ? There are no news apart from Janes which confirm the existence of the project.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun May 30, 2010 8:18 pm

    Austin wrote:Do we have any confirmation or news from officially may be pictures as well that Kornet Fire and Forget does exist ? There are no news apart from Janes which confirm the existence of the project.

    KBP has been developing fire-forget for the Hermes rocket artillery. Don't see any reason why you can't stick it on a Kornet. The date of the article is 2004, it was still just a concept back then, it still hasn't been put into field trials yet.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 31, 2010 4:06 am

    If it is for a specific role in the Russian Army then it may remain secret for years.

    If it is a KBP initiative that they were developing and want to offer it to the Russian military then it would probably have been advertised by now because an export order would probably pay for the development of the system.

    Items that go into Russian service but are not for export can remain secret for many years.

    A good example would be the Vasilek automatic mortar, which has been in service for decades yet finding it for sale for export is actually quite hard.

    Another example is the R-27P and R-27EP, both had been in Russian AF service for years but was not mentioned in public to even exist. Externally it looks like the SARH (Semi Active Radar Homing) R-27R and R-27ER missiles, but it uses passive radar homing to attack enemy aircraft, particularly those guiding SARH homing missiles themselves.

    The point is that if the Russian Army want them then they will buy a huge number that will pay for development costs, of all the armies in the world... despite the existence of Javelin and Spike, the Russian army is probably the best defended against tanks, due to the range and quality of their anti tank weapons and their training.

    A fire and forget version of Kornet will certainly improve their abilities, especially if they have to enlarge the missile to 210mm so it can use the Hermes seeker without modification. This will make the missile heavier, but the seeker in the Hermes has inertial guidance then terminal homing so it flys in a sort of autopilot towards the target and then acquires the target in flight and attacks it, which would mean a lofted flight trajectory and diving top attack options become available.

    It might be that you elevate the Kornet launcher to 45 degrees and fire the missile at the target area and then point the sight at the target and then 5 seconds after launch you press a button to lase the target for tenth of a second which the missile detects and centres in its field of view in its IIR seeker and then attacks that target in a diving top attack flight profile. This means no datalink or fibre optic wire connection, no chance of the missile striking trees or low wires, once the target is marked the operator can up and leave the area and the IIR seeker should have no problem with hitting the target... if it moves then it is fairly easy to write a program to follow a moving target, most tanks these days have moving target auto trackers, most mid range Russian SAMs have had that feature for years too.

    Note this is all my own opinion and not based on anything I have read from a Russian source.

    AFAIK the only fire and forget Anti tank missiles the Russians are working on are either ground based unguided RPGs from reusable and disposable launchers and those fired from aircraft, that include the Kh-25, Kh-29, Kh-38, in TV and IR models, and the Hermes to replace the ATAKA and VIKHR missiles carried by Mil and Kamov helos respectively.
    It seems to me that so far the cost of fire and forget means that lots of standoff range is a benefit.
    Of course the real problem in fitting a nose mounted seeker in the Kornet is that that is where the small precursor charge to detonate ERA is located. Next you have the nose mounted control fins and then the sustainer rocket fuel and then the main charge warhead at a nice standoff distance so the plasma beam can form fully before it hits the main armour of the target and then in the tail is the rear facing laser seeker and the tail fins so adding a seeker in the nose will require a serious change in design.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 31, 2010 5:20 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Items that go into Russian service but are not for export can remain secret for many years.

    Anything that goes into Russian service that isn't banned by MTCR is sold for export. The only thing that remains secret are a bunch of failed programmes.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  brudawson on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:17 pm

    It's a anti-tank missile. Kornet AT-14 is the version of the Tula KBP Kornet- E anti tank missile Design by Bureau. Famous newspaper of Russia Krasnaya Zvezda few weeks before his resignation in late september, Kormiltsev said that the new missiles can be equipped with a thermal or radio-locating homing head, nd could be used against enemy anti-tank missile syste. That's the speacility of this missile & that's why they said fire and forget.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:53 am

    Thermal or radio locating homing warhead is how they describe the terminal homing system on the Hermes. (ie IIR or MMW radar homing)

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:24 pm


    Multipurpose missile complex Kornet -[EM]” they will for the first time show on max -2011
    Today, the 10:06

    Multipurpose missile complex Kornet -[EM]” they will for the first time show on MAKS-2011.
    In August at the airshow MAKS-2011 GUP “the design bureau of instrument manufacture” ([KBP], Tula) will for the first time present the multipurpose high-precision missile complex of long range for dealing with the ground-based and aerial targets, with the automatic, completely noise-shielded laser-beam system for control Kornet -[EM]”.

    New missile complex is capable to strike the contemporary and promising tanks, equipped with dynamic protection, the lightly armoured technology, fortifications, above-water and aerial targets ([UAV], helicopters, the aircraft of attack aviation).

    Kornet -[EM]” has 8 rockets, ready to shooting, with the complete fire unit 16 pcs volley fire at two purposes considerably increases rate of fire and fire productivity. Complex makes it possible to conduct shooting all rockets of the family Kornet- E”.

    Fundamental tactical-technical characteristics of the complex:

    the firing distance:

    - minimum - 150 m,
    - maximum - 10000 m,

    the system of control - automatic with the tele-orientation in the laser beam, (ie laser beam riding)
    noise protection - high,
    a quantity of simultaneously fired purposes by volley - 2,
    armor-piercing ability cumulative BCh - 1100-1300 mm,
    the TNT equivalent explosive BCh - 7 kgf,
    fire unit - 16 pcs,

    - including ready to shooting - 8 pcs,

    the time of transfer from the march position into the combat - 7 s.
    Source: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i-mash.ru%2Fnews%2Fnov_otrasl%2F14924-mnogocelevojj-raketnyjj-kompleks-kornet-jem.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate


    The thing is that laser beam riding is not really fire and forget, though I suppose perhaps that might be yet to be revealed.

    A flight range of 10km is impressive for such a missile and seems to be the main change.
    Other articles have mentioned new models of Kornet and Chrysantema with terminal homing heads with the latter having a flight range of 8km when launched from an Mi-28NM... perhaps this version of Kornet might offer it a run for its money, though MMW radar command guidance and laser beam riding as a combined guidance method would offer flexibility in the types of targets that could be engaged while keeping the unit price low enough to buy and more importantly use in enormous numbers. Having a cheap simple missile that hits its targets is ideal.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:38 pm

    Its got long range 10 km and its got RHA of ~ 1300 mm , this is perfect for UAV and Helicopters , its a laser guided missile so its not F&F.

    This should afford Kornet a longer stand off capability and considering 650 mm of RPG-29 can blow off side turret of Abrams kornets 1300 mm can do more damage.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:24 pm

    armor-piercing ability cumulative BCh - 1100-1300 mm,

    I suppose this means 1300 mm + ERA as ordinary Kornet have 1200 mm + ERA. I'm sure it have tandem warhead as all modern ATGMs.

    Range of 10 km is quite a long distance for land based ATGM. They will have to improve its optics with higher magnification and TI to recognize and track targets on that distance or maybe they will connect this new Kornet with radar like Credo or similar to find targets and lock optics to target until missile hit it.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:29 pm

    medo wrote:I suppose this means 1300 mm + ERA as ordinary Kornet have 1200 mm + ERA. I'm sure it have tandem warhead as all modern ATGMs.

    Yes those are post ERA penetration figures and yes it has tandem warhead.


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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:35 pm

    Yes those are post ERA penetration figures and yes it has tandem warhead.

    So combined penetration of both warheads could give 1500-1600 mm or maybe even more if frontal warhead is stronger.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:34 am

    I rather suspect the Kornet-ER might be a slightly larger weapon than the original Kornet and it might be intended to be a vehicle only launched system.

    As such I suspect EO sighting will be standard with modern thermal sights as standard.

    The extended flight range will make retaliation more difficult and being a beam rider the launch platform can move during the engagement which is a huge advantage.

    In fact a vehicle based system with a decent EO system should incorporate an auto tracker which in addition to being more precise than a human operator is also unaffected by nerves or tiredness and of course return fire induced fear.

    In operational terms the system would be automatic with the operator placing the crosshair on the target and when the lock box appears around the target a press of a button will maintain that lock. Pressing the fire button when the target is in range would be all that remained for the operator to do.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:46 am

    I rather suspect the Kornet-ER might be a slightly larger weapon than the original Kornet and it might be intended to be a vehicle only launched system.

    Agree. With that extended range and larger warhead it will be too heavy to be portable.



    As such I suspect EO sighting will be standard with modern thermal sights as standard.

    I agree that modern thermal sight must be standard part of FCS. But I'm not sure of optical sight will be standard here. Magnification of optical sight for Kornet is designed for 5,5 km range and 10 km is almost double range. Operator need larger zoom to see a tank in 10 km than in 5 km. It is useless to have a missile with 10 km range if you could not see target there. From outside maybe FCS block will look the same as standard one, but inside they will have to modify it, to operate against targets which are 10 km away.



    The extended flight range will make retaliation more difficult and being a beam rider the launch platform can move during the engagement which is a huge advantage.

    In fact a vehicle based system with a decent EO system should incorporate an auto tracker which in addition to being more precise than a human operator is also unaffected by nerves or tiredness and of course return fire induced fear.

    In operational terms the system would be automatic with the operator placing the crosshair on the target and when the lock box appears around the target a press of a button will maintain that lock. Pressing the fire button when the target is in range would be all that remained for the operator to do.

    I think in the same way. Placed it on mobile platform it will have more sense to integrate it with one of stabilized EO balls in FCS, which will enable fire on the move, have enough zoom to engage targets in 10 km and have autotracker to lock the target.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:56 am

    The photo with the article showed a light four wheeled vehicle with a hard top and a rack of 8 ready to fire missiles poking up in the rear. It looked like a Volk or Tigr-M.

    I rather suspect this would be a light brigade example of the vehicle and in medium brigades there would be wheeled and tracked carriers that could replace Shturm on the MTLB chassis... the wheeled and tracked vehicles being Kangaroo and Kurganets-25 family vehicles. This suggests that in the heavy brigades there will be an Armata vehicle with Kornet ER missiles too.

    This raises the question of where the Khrisantema fits within the ground forces... made by KBM, which also makes the Shturm and Ataka missiles for ground and air platforms.
    Is Kornet ER an attempt by KBP Tula to muscle in on KBMs territory?
    Certainly a 10km range supersonic Kornet with 1.4m penetration is clearly superior to Ataka and Shturm and Khrisantema missiles and it doesn't really make sense to use both Khrisantema and Kornet ER as vehicle based weapons. Having one standard weapon across vehicles and light aircraft would save money.
    The question remains is there a Khrisantema ER, or even is it time to merge KBM and KBP and develop a new joint ATGM?

    We have heard rumours of the guided Kornet and the guided Khrisantema and also of a new ATGM called Baikal. I would expect that for the infantry the METIS M1 as a light weight relatively short range system with 2.5km range and 950mm armour penetration is adequate, and the 5.5km range Kornet with 1.2m penetration is also acceptable for widespread use. Having the Kornet ER as the vehicle based system might be good for ground forces commonality, but the MMW guidance component of the Khrisantema makes it all weather which is an advantage and in its helo launched version its range is 8km which is pretty close to Kornet-ER.

    I wonder what class of ATGM the Baikal will be... will it be a fire and forget short range top attack system to suppliment Metis-M1 for very hard targets that Metis can't deal with(ie for bunkers and sniper positions Metis is cheap and simple and does the job and really doesn't need a very expensive fire and forget replacement).
    Or will Baikal be a larger system to replace Kornet with fire and forget capability and front or top attack options?

    With the Hermes coming up soon I rather doubt Baikal will be a vehicle based system only like Krisantema and Kornet ER.

    Then again there was talk of guided rockets for the RPG-32 which would compliment Metis as an even cheaper system that could be put in service in huge numbers.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:00 pm

    I wonder if Kornet ATGM system placed in BMP-3 chassis will be also modified to use new 10 km range Kornet-ER missiles?

    Will Russian army replace Metis ATGM with newer ATGM, which will not be wire guided?

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:09 am

    I wonder if Kornet ATGM system placed in BMP-3 chassis will be also modified to use new 10 km range Kornet-ER missiles?

    I suspect the Kornet ER on a BMP-3 chassis will be the direct competition with the Khrizantema ground based system. Both Kornet and Khrizantema can be guided with laser beam riding guidance, but Khrizantema has MMW radar command control guidance for complete all weather day/night use... and I suspect a 10+km range model wont be that hard to develop.

    Will Russian army replace Metis ATGM with newer ATGM, which will not be wire guided?

    Hard to say... the current model actually is selling quite well as it is cheap and portable and accurate and also quite powerful. My guess is don't fix what isn't broken.

    Its purpose is portability and low cost, so one improvement might be more powerful warhead if that can be achieved without reducing range too much.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:21 pm

    It's true, that Metis is still very good ATGM, which do its job well and is no need to replace it. Laser guidance only enable higher speed of missile, so it could have better option to penetrate active defense on armored vehicles comparing to slower wire guided missiles. Light laser guided ATGM would more cooperate with Metis against more danger targets, against other targets Metis is enough.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:29 am

    Cost is also a rather more significant factor than most experts give credit for.

    As shown by Javelin in Afghanistan and Milan in the Falklands, quite often those very expensive missiles are used for things that they were not really intended for, like hitting MG nests and snipers, or taking out cars and other light vehicles.

    For most of these threats the Russians already have a range of light disposable and reusable launchers firing relatively cheap unguided rockets. The current RPO rocket launcher called Varna is lighter than the older RPO yet has a more powerful warhead and longer range.

    Out to 400-600m range these unguided and disposable weapons are the best choice mainly because when you fire them you don't have to carry them any further... Smile but for targets from 400-2000m the Metis-M1 is accurate and powerful and relatively cheap. The RPG-32 will likely get a guided munition which might supplement the unguided rockets out to 600m or so without costing too much, but I think the Metis-M1 will continue to do a good job. At longer ranges the Kornet is more of a vehicle based system, which is actually good because the better optics and systems means it would be better able to engage targets at extended ranges and to carry sufficient reloads to be useful.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:34 am

    Have found some new information about the new Kornet.

    First of all it seems to be called Kornet-EM... as in an upgraded (ie M) version of the Export model. The confusion probably came from Europe and their ATGMs with increased range models being called ER or extended range for the longer range models.

    New information is here:

    http://kbptula.ru/eng/kbp/news/news015.htm

    But basically as I suspected the new system uses laser beam riding guidance which is relatively cheap and simple and pretty hard to defeat, with the guidance system using an auto target tracking system to improve guidance accuracy to a level where small aerial targets can also be engaged by the system.

    Comes in two versions: One with armour piercing HEAT warheads that travels at 300m/s to a flight range of 8km, and on with a thermobaric warhead with a range of 10km and a 320m/s flight speed (just (at sea level) supersonic).

    While not strictly fire and forget it greatly exceeds the flight speed and range of guided missiles like Spike and Javelin, and are much cheaper and also more difficult to defeat and can be fired on the move.

    Supposed to be backwards compatible with the Kornet-E launcher and at 31-33kgs in the tubes they are about 12-20kgs lighter than the Shturm and Ataka missiles... the original Kornets being about 29kgs so they are only slightly heavier than the older missiles.

    In addition to more powerful rocket motors I suspect the missiles will likely take advantage of improved flight profiles to extend missile flight range.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:26 am

    Have found some new information about the new Kornet.

    First of all it seems to be called Kornet-EM... as in an upgraded (ie M) version of the Export model. The confusion probably came from Europe and their ATGMs with increased range models being called ER or extended range for the longer range models.

    New information is here:

    http://kbptula.ru/eng/kbp/news/news015.htm

    Excellent finding. It seems this system is for export. I wonder what kind of modification will be for domestic use. I would more like to see 8 missiles in one station rotating 360° and with higher elevation up to +60°or +75°. With higher elevation and 360° rotation it could easier engage helicopters and UAVs. It could still have 2 FCS to enage two targets simultaneously. One fixed in station and one free to rotate.

    I think this bring back idea of BMPT, where 4 ATAKA missiles could be replaced with 8 Kornet-EM missiles and with higher elevation up to +75° and modified FCS to work to that elevation, it could excellently do the job, about which KBP write and is at the same time protected with very strong armor.

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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:16 pm

    The dual use surface to air and ATGM nature of the system will make dedicated anti armour units a bit more flexible and independent in that they can engage air targets themselves without needing air defence units.

    It is also an added bonus in that the range of armoured vehicles in each weight brigade can have a family vehicle with this sort of system, perhaps with a small turret and method of reloading automatically similar to the BRDM-2 model vehicles that had fully retractable launchers, which made them difficult to distinguish from much less dangerous command variants of the system.

    The vehicle depicted in the link above could be used in the light wheeled units while wheeled Kangaroo and tracked kurganets-25 plus a heavily armoured Armata version.

    It is interesting that they want to have 8 ready to fire weapons... this is also shown with the BMP-2 upgrade with 4 ready to launch Kornets mounted on the outside of the turret ready to launch. I guess it makes sense to have as many as possible ready to fire missiles so they can be used urgently against several targets before requiring a reload.

    I would add the comment that as Surface to Air Missiles these weapons are very slow in flight... though much faster than wire guided ATGMs which generally fly at 120-150m/s.

    We were told about new model Kornets with fire and forget capability and also new model Krisantema missiles with fire and forget capability...

    The original Krisantema uses dual laser beam riding guidance technology plus radio command guidance using a MMW radar to transmit the guidance commands.

    Krisantema can either be directed to the target with the autotracker following the target optically and keeping a laser pointed at the target for the missile to ride down to impact, or the MMW radar can track the target and the missile and transmit flight course corrections to the missile via a radio signal till impact with the tracked target.

    The old Krisantema has 1,250mm penetration and 6km range and a 450m/s flight speed and had a twin launcher that loaded automatically... but not very quickly.

    I would suspect a new rocket motor and new warhead to bring the armour penetration to perhaps 1.4m to 1.6m and flight speed up to 500m/s and flight range to perhaps 12km should be achievable goals.

    But why?

    Krysantema is a similar physical size to Kornet and they could be operated from the same vehicle like the BRDM-2 had both AT-4 and AT-5 missiles.

    The point would be that Krisantema is a faster and potentially more powerful missile, but also more expensive. With a more sophisticated MMW radar (as being developed for modern Russian Attack helos) multiple guided missiles could be fired at one time with MMW radar active seekers. In fact a dual MMW radar and IR seeker could be used to determine tanks with running engines and distinguish burning tanks from stationary tanks releasing smoke.

    Each family of vehicle could have MMW radar and optics to fire both the Kornet and Krisantema, with the Kornet fire and forget for the gunner in practical terms while Krisantema in the radar guided version could actually be fire and forget against heavy armour and light aircraft, though more expensive per shot.

    ie a cheap but still guided round that is accurate and powerful, plus a fully fire and forget round that could have a steep climb and lock on after launch steep diving attack option to improve kill probability against the most powerful of tanks.

    With relatively small missiles the final vehicle could carry 16-24 missiles in well armoured fairly well disguised vehicles... unlike Hermes and Pantsir-S1 equipped vehicles which will be able to operate on the front line or as separate units in ambush and recon missions.

    medo
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    Re: Russian Army ATGM Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:28 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/08/01/iskander/

    In 2010 Russian MoD buy 18 man portable and 13 self propelled Kornet ATGMs and they plan to buy 180 man portable 360 self propelled Kornet ATGMs.

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