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    Su-24 Fencer

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    RTN

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  RTN on Tue May 20, 2014 10:07 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote: a pre-jammed system like Aegis?

    Pre Jammed System means what ?
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 20, 2014 10:09 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    TR1 wrote:How exactly has the US Navy accepted the Su-24 jammed Aegis??!?!

    The US had send two destroyers to the Black sea . The USS Donald Cook and USS Taylor . Pentagon had then stated -

    “The Donald Cook’s mission is to reassure NATO allies and Black Sea partners of America’s commitment to strengthen and improve interoperability while working towards mutual goals in the region ."

    Donald Cook & Taylor were supposed to be in the Black Sea for an extended period of time . However , the Donald Cook cut short it's mission & left immediately after the incident . Pentagon has NOT clarified why it left abruptly .

    The Pentagon actually used the term "provocative" and "un professional" to describe the incident.


    From that to the Su-24 jamming anything is a huge jump.
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    medo

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  medo on Tue May 20, 2014 6:23 pm

    Su-24 was designed to penetrate western IADS with Patriot and HAWK complexes and naval AEGIS is practically not much different than Patriot. It have 4 SPY-1B radar antenna, which cover its own sector to cover full 360°, so in one direction cover only 1 radar antenna. Similarly as with Patriot in AEGIS this SPY-1B radar do both, searching for targets and engaging them with missiles. By the size, this radar is comparable with 64N6 radar from S-300, so probably Su-24 jammers are able to jam SPY-1B radar, specially in so short distances (depend of what kind of jamming it use and how powerful jammer is), when it is meant to jam Patriot radar. True, it work in different band, than Patriot, but it was not unknown for Soviets and considering Su-24 was designed to penetrate western air defense (also on the sea), than most probably Su-24 jammers were calibrated for SPY-1 radar from AEGIS too.
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    TR1

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 pm

    Su-24 wasn't designed with Patriot in mind though.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue May 20, 2014 10:27 pm

    medo wrote:Su-24 was designed to penetrate western IADS with Patriot and HAWK complexes and naval AEGIS is practically not much different than Patriot. It have 4 SPY-1B radar antenna, which cover its own sector to cover full 360°, so in one direction cover only 1 radar antenna. Similarly as with Patriot in AEGIS this SPY-1B radar do both, searching for targets and engaging them with missiles. By the size, this radar is comparable with 64N6 radar from S-300, so probably Su-24 jammers are able to jam SPY-1B radar, specially in so short distances (depend of what kind of jamming it use and how powerful jammer is), when it is meant to jam Patriot radar. True, it work in different band, than Patriot, but it was not unknown for Soviets and considering Su-24 was designed to penetrate western air defense (also on the sea), than most probably Su-24 jammers were calibrated for SPY-1 radar from AEGIS too.

    Anyway Su-24 did that penetration through Low altitude using Reliyef terrain following radar, not jamming.

    If it ever use for jamming it will do it from standoff range, which what Su-24MP did. Even in self protection case the jammer will still be sized to the power aperture product of the radar it designed to jam and that's obviously effective not at the distance where the visual identification can be made for that Su-24.

    Self protection jammer anyway is usually for tracking radar working at C, X or Ku Band where the airplane can still physically provide internal space for the antenna. Lower band jammer like S or L-Band requires pod or larger antenna that take up more space and this is kinda difficult to hide. Did USN publish any photo on the Su-24 i wonder ?
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Sujoy on Wed May 21, 2014 9:31 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Did USN publish any photo on the Su-24 i wonder ?

    No they did not . Whenever they are at fault they choose not to publish any pics . Two years ago the US Navy shot dead an Indian fisherman off the coast of Dubai mistaking them to be pirates . Even in that case they did not release any pics.

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/indian-fisherman-killed-3-injured-in-firing-from-american-navy-ship/article1-890192.aspx

    dionis

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  dionis on Thu May 29, 2014 1:28 am

    TR1 wrote:Su-24 wasn't designed with Patriot in mind though.

    The Su-24M was designed concurrently if not after the Patriot's initial version.

    The Kh-58 capability speaks to this, as well.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:40 am

    With the Syrian campaign in the news, where most (if not all) Su-24's are said to be of the Su-24M 'Gefest' type, some info and material on the upgrade package...

    As mentioned previously in this thread, the 'Gefest' upgrade is sometimes confused with the Sukhoi upgrade for the Su-24 (aka Su-24M2) which was abandoned in favor of the Gefest package in 2012, after years of haggling, arguments and delays (originally tested in 2001 Arrow  http://www.royfc.com/news/aug/1301aug04.html).  


    It's reported that the Gefest upgrade is more efficient compared to the Sukhoi one while being 2-3 times cheaper.

    By late 2013, approx. 50 x Su-24M's were reported to have been upgraded...current numbers are not verifiably known but it's been estimated that around 70-80 have been upgraded serving with units in 3 Military districts.


    The new subsystem (SVP-24 Gefest & T) allows conducting precision bombing attacks against ground targets in adverse weather conditions.

    It consists of aircraft on-board equipment and terrestrial automated system of flight mission preparation and control that are connected with the single special software.

    SVP-24 features comprehensive information processing taking into account many factors that influence navigation accuracy and field use, especially in the course of maneuvering of an aircraft, high performance and equipment reliability, as well as electronic ground map.

    Moreover, the crew of Su-24M has got the possibility to automatically exchange information with other aircraft, and the ground command center has got the possibility of automatic control, including the redirection of the striking force in the real time scale.

    http://www.aviasalon.com/en/news/item/news_id-308.htm


    Expanded range of guided weapons, used on board the bomber, in particular enables the use of Kh-31A and Kh-59MK, anti-radar missiles Kh-31P, corrected bombs KAB-500Kr. Improved aircraft EW system.




    http://defendingrussia.ru/enc/bombardirovschiki/sverkhzvukovoj_frontovoj_bombardirovschik_s_izmenjajemoj_geometrijej_kryla_su24-812/

    Standard Su-24M ---->> Su-24M-Gefest










    The company has made variants of the SVP-24 subsystem for other aircraft as well....Tu-22M, MiG-27, Ka-50/Mi-24 and just in July the company direktor reported state tests for Su-25 equipped with the SVP-24-25 system....not sure how this corresponds to the Su-25SM3 upgrade

    The Su-25 ("Rook"), equipped with a special computing subsystem SVP-24-25, which provides higher accuracy at stage of state trials, reported by the CEO of "Gefest & T" Alexander Panin, in July 2015. "The completion of state tests are expected in the third quarter after several dozen test flights," - he said.
    According to the director, "is the solution to equip front-line Su-25 subsystem SVP-24-25 with the successful completion of the ongoing phase state tests."

    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/svp-24-gefest/





    Tests of Tu-22M3M with SVP-24-22 in 2013



       


    Tests of Su-24M-Gefest in conjuction with the 'Strelets' command & control system during an 2011 exercise

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:48 am

    If it is cheap, they should have upgraded quite a few more Su-24's with it. I heard great things about it and could be used for a large amount of aircrafts. MiG-29's, etc.

    70 - 80 is quite a low number compared to all the Su-24M's Russia has. But then again, equipment is old, so they may not bother?

    Fantastic info mate +1 to you tomorrow.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:34 am

    Well apparently there are about 120 Su-24's in active service, so 70-80 Gefest units + 20 odd Su-24M2's would constitue the majority of them
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    medo

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  medo on Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:25 pm

    I think one segment of those modernization of RuAF planes is not that much mentioned as it should be and it is data link network capabilities. All the time western medias and NATO gives to their planes the upper hand, because they have data link network with sharing situation picture between the planes and command center, that not every one in the group need to turn on their radars and other sensors, etc. RuAF Syrian operation show, that RuAF have the same data link network capabilities, where they share their situation picture between the planes and where one in the group have radar on and mapping the ground to search for targets and deliver them to the other in group or share the picture from UAV and coordinate the work. Satelitte navigation and data link network give night capabilities even to Su-25SM, which doesn't have night equipment.

    The only thing, which we still have to see is the night picture from Platan complex in Su-34.

    I wonder if any Su-30SM throw any bomb in this operation in Syria or are they only for air protection and as command plane to coordinate the work with the group.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 12, 2015 11:59 pm

    medo wrote:I think one segment of those modernization of RuAF planes is not that much mentioned as it should be and it is data link network capabilities.

    In the link I posted it says it has the ability to automaticaly exchange information with other aircraft. I'm not sure whether it's done via a ground based command post (like the strelets mentioned above) or directly.

    I wonder if any Su-30SM throw any bomb in this operation in Syria or are they only for air protection and as command plane to coordinate the work with the group.

    Probably not or at least we haven't heard or seen anything yet




    wilhelm

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:18 pm

    A couple of questions.... how many of the fleet of Su-24's were upgraded to have GLONASS? All of them, or the majority?
    What type of Su-24's are in Syria? The M or M2?
    The plane that was shot down...what model was that?
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    franco

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:16 pm

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:19 pm

    Su-24М practice mid-air refueling over Kaliningrad region. http://www.ng.ru/video/566745.html
    I wonder, for how many more years they'll be flown?
    There were unconfirmed reports in the Russian media that 27 officers asked for resignation on the USS Cook after the Su-24 flyby, & that 2 planes were involved- the probable EW plane was at a distance & didn't fly over the ship. Does it all make sense?
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    George1

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:59 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote: Su-24М practice mid-air refueling over Kaliningrad region. http://www.ng.ru/video/566745.html
    I wonder, for how many more years they'll be flown?

    i guess that until the end of that decade will be withdrawn from russian air force


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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  AMCXXL on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:55 am

    SU-24M Nº55 RF-92014 just repaired and repainted, received at Monchegorsk   >>>  http://russianplanes.net/regs/RF-92014

    Newly painted navy badges:
    -the Navy flag with the cross of Saint Andrew
    -the Russian flag at the helm of the tail
    -the inscription of naval aviation,which is not visible here:  MA-BMФ РОССИИ (Naval Aviation-Military Marine Fleet of Russia)

    The 98th SAP (composite air regiment) of Monchegorsk was transfered two years ago form West MD to North JSC (Joint Stategic Command)
    Is part of the 45 Army of Air Force and Air Defence Forces of North JSC  ( 45º A. VVSiPVO ), comanded by the chief of North Fleet



    Last edited by AMCXXL on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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    AMCXXL

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  AMCXXL on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:33 pm

    wilhelm wrote:A couple of questions.... how many of the fleet of Su-24's were upgraded to have GLONASS? All of them, or the majority?
    What type of Su-24's are in Syria? The M or M2?
    The plane that was shot down...what model was that?

    If you are talking about SVP24 , the upgrade was done in "arround 45" of "arround 50" planes , exact number unclear , depends of the source and the date to which it refers

    SVP24 is only a system for calculate a classic bombing , by gravety , for not propelled munition (like in WW2) but calculated with "GPS" coordenates and a computer
    As the physics is a exact science , the accuracy is so good than a guided munition , but you have not to spent a lot of money for electronics systems in each guided bomb, as the system is installed in the airplane
    Is a good solution in the "old soviet style" , same results without dilapidate resources.
    The western military corporations only work for produce more and more expensive systems and win a lot of money for pay big bonus to its shareholders

    Of course a couple of planes or so , was deployed al Lipestk
    The Chelyabinsk regiment was equiped with this upgrade about 2012-3 , and was spected Morozovsk also was equipped just before receive the SU-34
    A squadron of Morozovsk with SVP24 was transferred to Gvardeyskoye-Simferopol  in late 2014-2015 after Crimea returns to Russia
    Other squadron was sent to the new 11 SAP , composite regiment of Marinovka , not clear if all the 12 planes have the system
    Not necesary more SVP24 in Su-24 as is being replaced with SU-34
    About the Su-24M2 , the only regiment is Khurba, but is near to complete its complement of Su-34

    About the planes in Syria , were of Chelyabinsk (2 BAP) in the first moments, but also several planes of other regiments have participated in the operations
    The plane shot down was based in 2 BAP
    RF-90932 (ex-26) https://russianplanes.net/images/to177000/176753.jpg
    Got Nº83 , because the tail number was changed to and register was deleted in most SU-24&25 for operations in Latakia
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:16 pm

    Although not likely due to newer aircraft although there was talk about Argentina making a potential purchase. But does any know approximately the price of Su-24M- gefest if Russia was to sell it. Just not sure what second hand aircraft likely go for.

    Although there is potential to sell I think Russia will focus on selling newer items over selling older systems plus Su-24 must be getting pretty worn now.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:46 am

    Fitting it with a downgraded AESA radar like the Su-34s set would allow it to use AAMs...

    An Su-24 with the G&T bombing system and the ability to use 200km range RVV-BD AAMs as well as R-77M and R-73 missiles would make it a very potent system.. though an AESA will crank up the cost.... perhaps a more conventional radar that gives it air to air capability too like off the Su-27SM3 or something....

    I am sure the Russians might offer them a deal just to see the UK squirm.... Malvinas...

    The UK takes every opportunity to show it is not Russias friend.... why would Russia care if this upsets them? Smile


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