Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

The VDV itself keeps saying it wants the BMD-4M, and I think I trust Shamanov more in this case than the Army Generals. The vehicle is available, in just 2 years they could easily buy ~150 units, and in that way massively increase VDV brigade potential within short order.

I agree. The units can't simply go into limbo... they need to be equipped and ready to do their job.

Another aspect I forgot is production... having a 2-3 year gap in production is not good for the makers either.

I rather suspect that the best solution is to adopt the BMD-4M as the parachute drop standard vehicle for the VDV and buy them for the parachute units. The other units can get upgrades of their BMD-2s like the Berezhok turret upgrade and new communications and sensors and electronics to enable a net centric capability with new navigation and night vision equipment to allow them to train as an all weather day/night fighting force.

In 3-4 years time when the new vehicles are introduced they could get the electronics and weapons of the new vehicles retrofitted to their BMD-4Ms with perhaps armour and NERA and APS additions as well for the parachuting units and Kurganets-25 for the air mobile units. The unified electronics should simplify things too.

In an interview with CEO of MIC it is mentioned that the aim is to have 70 % commonality between Kurganets & Boomerang and modularity which should be good for long term logistics

The Kurganets and 25 ton class boomerang are going to be similar weights, so it makes sense to give them similar engine packs.
Armament and electronics/sensors will likely be the same too. Other than that screens and seats and controls can be standardised, with the seats designed to reduce the damage under floor mines do to the crew and passengers.

What is the commonality achieved between current BMP-3 and BTR-80/82 APC ?

Different weight classes and roles... one is an IFV and the other is an APC.

With Kurgan and Boomerang both are IFVs and APCs and tanks and everything else... and they are in the same weight class (ie medium) so it makes sense to have common engine and transmission... different running gear of course because they are tracked and wheeled, but in terms of weapon systems and electronics and sensors they can use the same stuff.

Good for logistics and training and purchasing economics.

Also it was mentioned that Kurganets will end up having 45/57 mm Gun which when compared to BMP-3 100 mm Gun is a downgrade but then I think the requirenments are not similar they are aiming for guided rounds in anti-aircraft role , so achieving a standardisation might be a priority over firepower.

The primary role of the main gun on the BMP-3 is to penetrate enemy IFVs... the 30mm gun no longer cuts it, and using 100mm guided missiles is expensive and they are for emergency use against tanks anyway... they only have 8.

With a 45/57mm gun they should manage a decent HE charge that is rather more than any 30mm cannon, though it wont be as powerful as a 100mm rifled gun. The armour piercing round for the 45/57mm gun will be able to defeat any non tank IFV from any angle out to 2,000m and with guided shells could perhaps even deal with helicopters and air targets out to as far as they can see them... 6-8km.

In other words not as good at HE as the 100mm, but still a useful HE shell, plus much better penetration and anti air capability than the 30mm gun.

That is not a bad compromise... especially when you keep in mind that several vehicles in the Brigade will have 120mm gun mortars with an even more powerful HE shell than the 100mm rifled weapons on the BMP-3, and heavy guided missiles as well.

The standard pattern was BMP-1 with 73mm gun and BTR-60s with 14.5mm HMG.

Then they introduced the BMP-2 with a 30mm cannon, but it did not replace the BMP-1 because they found the extra HE power of the 73mm gun complimented the 30mm cannon rather than the cannon replacing the 73mm weapon, so they used the 73mm gun with the 30mm cannon and 14.5mm HMG.

With the BMP-3 they replaced the 73mm gun with a 100mm rifled gun and kept the 30mm cannon with new ammo, and they added the BTR-80A with a 30mm cannon and the BTR-80 with the 14.5mm HMG.

I rather suspect that we will see in the new brigades vehicles with 45/57mm guns in the IFV role, but we will also see basic troop carriers (ie APCs or BTRs) with a 30mm cannon or a 14.5mm HMG.

I also suspect to make up for the direct fire HE that is lost with the BMP-3 they will compensate with 120mm rifled gun armed BMPT type vehicles, which together with 120mm Vena type vehicles (similar to the BMPT but without the extra gatling guns and grenade launchers... perhaps with one rifle calibre RWS and more 120mm ammo) which operates as a support vehicle for the unit.

The main difference between the two vehicles apart from the extra armament on the BMPT, is that the Vena type vehicle will mostly fire indirectly at targets it can't see directly, whereas the BMPT will be used as an anti ambush weapon for convoys and tank units... taking on Javelin launch teams and RPG teams whereever they hide... in trees, up cliffs, in tall buildings, etc.

This way they get both standardisation AND firepower.

The new telescoped case rounds seem to be based on APFSDS rounds with nose pulling sabots for the penetrators.

I would expect the rather larger HE shells will take up more internal space, but they will need far less propellent to do their job so that doesn't matter so much.

Here is a page with some info on telescoped case ammo.:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WLIP.htm

Though nothing of course about the new 45mm rounds the Russians are developing, though it does mention the 57mm upgrade of the PT-76 that is in competition with the new 45mm round.

Ive always liked the idea of an IFV armed with a high pressure 76-85mm gun.

The problem there is that a 76-85mm high pressure gun has an enormous propellent case and therefore a decent load of ammo would fill the vehicle leaving no space for troops... which is kinda the whole purpose of an IFV.

Even the 57mm gun mentioned has a huge case which dramatically reduces the number of ready to fire ammo it can carry at any one time.

The PT_76 is a very large vehicle and can carry about 70 rounds of ammo... if you want to carry troops too you would need to reduce the ammo load to maybe 30 rounds which is obviously a problem when the gun spits them out at 2-3 per second.

Would make it have a decent HE power and actually have anti armor performance unlike a low velocity 100mm HE chucker.

You are forgetting we are talking about a troop transport, not a tank killer. The ATGM capability of the BMP series is for defence only. Its other anti armour capability is to engage its equivalent in the enemy forces and any other fire power it might have (MGs and HE) is to support its squad of infantry.

In the 1980s the combination of 30mm cannon which was effective against enemy IFVs and APCs and aircraft, along with a 100mm low velocity HE capability against bunkers and enemy firing positions was ideal.

Now that IFVs are 30-40 tons then it is not good enough... well the 30mm cannon is not good enough, the 100mm is still fine. The thing is that a more powerful anti armour gun for use against IFVs is increasing in calibre to the point where it can be fitted with a decent HE capability so the 100mm gun is becoming redundant.

With the removal of the 100mm gun they can carry rather more ammo for the 45/57mm gun, yet still retain decent HE capability.

Of course the gun barrel would be too narrow for a gun launched ATGM but since the bastion ATGM is hardly decent( only 650mm after ERA thats hardly enough to penetrate a leopard 2A6 or challenger 2) why not just mount a kornet-EM launcher on the roof?

With the removal of the 100mm gun it should be possible to add an ATGM option again, though with net centric C4IR and long range guided missile support from rear area Hermes vehicles it could be possible to call in a Hermes attack from a rear area up to 100km away from the target...

This is what I am talking about in terms of shell weight and size:



As you can see that while a BMP could carry 500 30mm cannon shells it is not going to be able to carry anywhere near that in 57mm shells, and even in terms of ammo handling it will be a pain inside an IFV.

Telescoped case rounds are much more compact and easy to handle in comparison yet offer similar performance to the much larger ammo rounds.