Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

Is it possible for the pantsir or Tunguska to fire missiles on the move?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is it possible for the pantsir or Tunguska to fire missiles on the move?

I would assume it depends on the chassis. Tracked version probably can. I've seen the wheel version firing missiles on the move, I'm not sure about the 30's though.

Rpg type 7v wrote:i was thinking this scenario. it is obvious the 90 degree angle for the aiming radar is not a good choice maybe domestic version radar has wider beam , but in this case it can only target 1 target at a time, and 4 missiles are coming in...
my question is will it survive?

That's pretty unlikely to happen, and you could just use several chassis.

if need be it must be able to deal with threats alone, they even advertise it that way ,besides many countries dont have that much money and patncir is very expensive for a short range system.
maybe an example -how many pantcirs does a s-400 regiment have covering its trail while on march?

I doubt they would sell individual vehicles separately... just like they would not just sell one TEL for an S-400 system separately.

An S-400 regiment would have at least one, perhaps two Pantsir-S1 regiments protecting it... in other words 6-12 TEL vehicles that would most likely operate in pairs.

Please read my post No. 124.

i was thinking this scenario. it is obvious the 90 degree angle for the aiming radar is not a good choice maybe domestic version radar has wider beam , but in this case it can only target 1 target at a time, and 4 missiles are coming in...
my question is will it survive?

Answered above in post no. 124.

Four low RCS cruise missiles would be the worst possible scenario for the system and because of the very high speed of its missiles I think it would survive... even one vehicle on its own.

Is it possible for the pantsir or Tunguska to fire missiles on the move?

Yes, but with reduced accuracy. The Tunguska/Pantsir-S1 are unlikely to be the target of the incoming cruise missile, so moving is not really to their advantage in this case.

That's pretty unlikely to happen, and you could just use several chassis.

x2, this is the worst case scenario, and even with one vehicle it would have a chance of defending itself. Having a threat come from the four cardinal points is not so easy to set up... if there is one missile coming in faster or closer than the others then that actually makes it easier because the missile that is closer can be engaged quicker because the outgoing missile will hit it sooner and the other three missiles will be further away when they are engaged.

Also keep in mind that if the missile system is defending a large SAM like an S-400 then it will get much better information from the radars of that SAM site and could probably engage the incoming threat at near max range, which makes everything easier too.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is it possible for the pantsir or Tunguska to fire missiles on the move?

Pantsir could fire with both, guns and missiles on the move, while Tunguska could fire only guns on the move. For missiles Tunguska need short stop.

Tunguska needed the short stop to launch the missiles to ensure clean separation so the missile didn't get damaged as it was fired... once it is fired the vehicle can move and guide the missile while it is moving, though with reduced accuracy as the sights and radar are all stabilised.

TR1 wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:i was thinking this scenario. it is obvious the 90 degree angle for the aiming radar is not a good choice maybe domestic version radar has wider beam , but in this case it can only target 1 target at a time, and 4 missiles are coming in...
my question is will it survive?

That's pretty unlikely to happen, and you could just use several chassis.

why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

Rpg type 7v wrote:

TR1 wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:i was thinking this scenario. it is obvious the 90 degree angle for the aiming radar is not a good choice maybe domestic version radar has wider beam , but in this case it can only target 1 target at a time, and 4 missiles are coming in...
my question is will it survive?

That's pretty unlikely to happen, and you could just use several chassis.

why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

Because an attack from 360 degrees is extremely unlikely, and is not a normal saturation attack.
You are comparing a single SAM platform vs 100s of millions of airplanes, of course it can't counter them all.
Also such a scenario ignores surrounding SAM sites, defending Air Force assets, etc.
A truly 360 degree attack like that doesn't happen in reality.

Rpg type 7v wrote:why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

And how on earth will you know where Pancir-S1 is in order to attack it?

Who will provide date on its location?

Building air defense is a rather expensive sport and no country will venture in it without securing at least few billions for a just for a

start. So 15 million $ per vehicle that represents world class in point defense and nightmare to any western planers is rather cheap.

Viktor wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

And how on earth will you know where Pancir-S1 is in order to attack it?

Who will provide date on its location?

Building air defense is a rather expensive sport and no country will venture in it without securing at least few billions for a just for a

start. So 15 million $ per vehicle that represents world class in point defense and nightmare to any western planers is rather cheap.

Em from its emmisions ,you know it has to have a working search radar ,its not an aesa with its lpi mode. F-35 or uav-s eodas could confirm its heat signature its a big truck.
I think there is no reason to blow that much money on short range system anyway ,something thats inherently limited should be simple cheap and fast ,for that money i am expecting it to be world class but it seems lacking in certain aspects.

why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

Cruise missiles often have programmed guidance systems that can have flight legs programmed into them to ensure each missile can arrive from a different direction at approximately the same time, but that assumes you know the precise coordinates of the Pantsir-S1 and that it doesn't move while the cruise missiles are flying into position, and that the missiles that come from "safe" directions survive flying over other enemy air defence positions. It also assumes the Pantsir-S1 is on its own... one or two assumptions are possible, but all of them applying at once is very very unlikely with any competent force.

BTW having two cruise missiles attacking a Patriot battery from two directions offers the opportunity to defeat it because the launch tubes are angled. If you can use high resolution imagery to determine which direction the tubes are angled you can launch an attack and overwhelm it. If the tubes for each battery are facing all four possible directions then launching an attack from one direction with lots of UAVs and UCAVs and cruise missiles will rapidly deplete the number of missiles available and defeat the system. S-300 and S-400 in comparison are vertically launched and can engage targets from any direction.

The system is beyond world class- name me a similar set, let alone for similar price!

Em from its emmisions ,you know it has to have a working search radar ,its not an aesa with its lpi mode.

If it is defending a larger SAM then it doesn't need to operate its own search radar. Its tracking radar is MMW radar frequency...how many ARMs can hit MMW radar frequency radars? (How vulnerable are Apache Ds to ARMS?)

I think there is no reason to blow that much money on short range system anyway ,something thats inherently limited should be simple cheap and fast ,for that money i am expecting it to be world class but it seems lacking in certain aspects.

The expendable component of the system is very cheap and very fast, but the reusable parts are very sophisticated and capable... the things this system is defending will be worth dozens of hundreds of times more than these systems will cost and used properly they should pretty much be able to defend almost anything.

To defeat one battery you would need to launch a significant number of missiles... just with four vehicles instead of the normal 6 it can engage 16 targets at once, but because of the speed of the missiles it can also engage several targets per minute, which means with subsonic targets that would take time to get to them they might be able to engage an enormous number of threats... but that sort of attack is unlikely to be launched in secret and being the inner ring of the defence network it should be able to not only defeat a lot of targets before they get near the Pantsir-S1, but the larger systems like S-400 should be able to get a few launch platforms too.

Rpg type 7v wrote:I think there is no reason to blow that much money on short range system anyway ,something thats inherently limited should be simple cheap and fast ,for that money i am expecting it to be world class but it seems lacking in certain aspects.

And how will that work - describe it to me. How will you catch emissions from Pancir-S1 and with what?

Do you intend to place one JSTARS above every country to catch and analyze radar signals or what?

And even if you do catch a signal and confirm thats a a Pancir-S1 what will you do next?

Do you intended to have sky covered with fighters right from the start so they can act immediately or send some cruise missiles or what?

Have you considered that we are talking about the moving targets that can also shoot missiles while it moves.

Are you aware that Pancir-S1 can work in passive mode only and guide missiles - without no emissions at all.

Rpg type 7v wrote: F-35 or uav-s eodas could confirm its heat signature its a big truck.

Yes it could catch its heat signature, just as it could get killed by it, just as same.

Rpg type 7v wrote:I think there is no reason to blow that much money on short range system anyway ,something thats inherently limited should be simple cheap and fast ,for that money i am expecting it to be world class but it seems lacking in certain aspects.

And the Pancir-S1 is just that.

- world class by far
- cheap

Rpg type 7v wrote:something thats inherently limited

Rpg type 7v wrote:but it seems lacking in certain aspects

Care to explain?

Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

TR1 wrote:The system is beyond world class- name me a similar set, let alone for similar price!

what is you estimation of the price per unit and you thinking about it?
The truck itself cant be more then 100.000$. Missile booster is with exotic materials and rocket fuel plus the cold start unit total 20.000$ ,now second stage is radio command+ actuators +explosives . around 20.000$ also. so no more then 50.000$ per missile and package of 12 is 600.000 $. Stabilised turret is 100.000$ . Gunns 30.000$ a piece with ammo 50.000k, so total for that is then 1 mill $ .
radars per unit cant be more then a 1 mill $ a piece. So that is 3 mill in total.
(the kopyo -21 radar with 30km for 2m2 target 100kg 4kw peak power 2 target engaged simultanius )is simmilar and its price is
Even with aditional electronics inside i cant see pantcir worth more then 5 mill $ with 1 more reserve package of missiles.
Fact is it is limited and overpriced system with no fire and forget ability and lots of blind spots.
We will see how the morfei very short range system will turn out to be.

GarryB wrote:

why not? saturation attack are quite normal thing against SAMs and part of the tactic , after you defeat it the rest of the army is yours, and with 1mill $ a piece use of cruise missiles is justified ,and not getting your personnel in the harms way ,it quite even makes economic sense against 15 mill $ short range SAM.

Cruise missiles often have programmed guidance systems that can have flight legs programmed into them to ensure each missile can arrive from a different direction at approximately the same time, but that assumes you know the precise coordinates of the Pantsir-S1 and that it doesn't move while the cruise missiles are flying into position, and that the missiles that come from "safe" directions survive flying over other enemy air defence positions. It also assumes the Pantsir-S1 is on its own... one or two assumptions are possible, but all of them applying at once is very very unlikely with any competent force.

Ok since it seems too much ill try to calculate interception times.
So the search radar is actually more powerful and it can work indenpendently all the time so i guess the missiles will be detected a bit earlier then 10 km, giving crew time to prepare and constant info about missile current positions.
Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s , internal dead zone of the missiles at must be taken into account of 1,2 km ,and guns cant be used during march .
http://forumimage.ru/show/1667537
4 missiles incoming:
So from information we can see aiming radar will get lock on the cruise missile at about 10km., it also takes 1 second for radar to calculate the parameters of the target. which is now 9,7 km away. then missile is launched (2-probably) , it takes time accelerate and has a drop in speed of 70m/s , so for the average speed i cant take more than 0,9km/s although 1,2km/s is the max.
So we can add speeds of target and the missile since they are on the same direction 0,9+0,3=1,2... 9,7/1,2= 8,1s to impact , at 7,3km.

3 targets left incoming at 300 m/s
lets say it takes 1 second to confirm the kill ,1 sec to rotate the turret to the next target since search radar is giving good tracking data ,and 1 second for aiming radar to get a lock ,3 targets are now at 7,3 - 0,3* 3 = 6,4 km then pantcir fires missiles , this time ill give them 1 km/s on average 1+ 0,3= 1,3. .... 6,4km/ 1,3km/s = 4,9 s to impact at 4,9km.
2 targets left:
confirmation takes 1 sec ,turret rotates to the next target in 1 sec, and aiming radar get a lock in 1 sec . the targets now are 4km away.
missiles are fired ill give 1,1 km/s average speed 1,1+0,3 =1,4. 4 / 1,4= 2,9 sec to impact at 3,2km .

1 target left: it is engaged at 2,3 km which is enough time for pantcir to destroy it just in time outside internal 1,2km missiles dead zone.
1,2+0,3 =1,5 ....2,3km / 1,5 km/s = 1,54 s. at 1,85km.
Good job, and with 4 missiles left.
but the crew must be very well trained (fast) ,and cant afford a miss.
it would take just 2 sec for the cruise missiles to get inside pantcirs dead zone and 6 sec to destroy it.

Rpg type 7v wrote:Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

1. Please go back and answer my question where I have asked you to tell me how do you plan to know where Pancir-S1 is before you

commence bombing procedure.

2. Its not quite easy actually and being 30km from Pancir-S1 would still get you shoot down. Not by Pancir, but by SAM higher ranked in

PVO exhelon.

3. Stealth? Depends on the state you are talking about. If you are referring about one 15 million $ Pancir-S1 system

being alone attack by 2 bin $ in airplanes and ELINT/ECM than it is obvious that it does not stand a chance. But Pancir-S1

is a real menace and nightmare for any western planer. It ability to quickly and reliable shoot down masses of PGM and

cruise missiles, helicopters and planes under severe ECM conditions and at the same being mobile and connected to everything else

makes its price a really non issue when building credible air defenses.

4. Let me ask you something. Why do you insist on just only Pancir-S1 scenario against all when thats the least possible scenario

of all.

5. You did not answer my questions. Please do.

Viktor wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:something thats inherently limited

Rpg type 7v wrote:but it seems lacking in certain aspects

Rpg type 7v wrote:Fact is it is limited

Rpg type 7v wrote:and overpriced system

Rpg type 7v wrote:and lots of blind spots

Care to explain?

Rpg type 7v wrote:with no fire and forget ability

So?

Every system and even fire and forget has its flaws and pluses.

Being fire and forget would make missile lock easily breakable under ECM conditions but would still require guidance until

missile lock to a target. Missiles would be more expensive to buy and operate.



I really dont understand why are you so against Pancir-S1 when it is the best and cheapest air defense in the world. Nothing like it

even exists.

Em from its emmisions ,you know it has to have a working search radar ,its not an aesa with its lpi mode. F-35 or uav-s eodas could confirm its heat signature its a big truck.
I think there is no reason to blow that much money on short range system anyway ,something thats inherently limited should be simple cheap and fast ,for that money i am expecting it to be world class but it seems lacking in certain aspects.

Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

I think you are not very familiar with air defense. Having 1 Pantsir alone mean something go very wrong. The basic unit of Pantsir or any other SAM system is battery, not 1 vehicle. So basic unit of Pantsirs is battery, which consist of 6 fire vehicles and 1 command post. So 6 Pantsirs could easily cover 360° with their tracking radar without turning turrets. But this is not a point.

Battery of Pantsirs is integrated in IADS, so they don't need to emite with their radars. You say F-35 could be stealth 30 km away and attack Pantsirs with cruise missiles. Now let think about it. Let say Pantsir work stationary. Their data link with command post and higher level go via optical cables. They don't need to use their own electrogenerator, but use electricity from outside sources. They are masked in their position and use all means of false targets. In that case they are also stealth to F-35 as well, because they will not use radars, there will be no heat signature. They will get info of F-35 from other sources, specially from passive detecting capabilities. When in range, they will track F-35 with EO sights and fire missiles in optical mode. Don't forget, that before F-35 will come that close to Pantsir, it will have to come through range of S-400, S-300V4, Buk, Vityaz, Su-35, PAK-FA, etc. Even if F-35 come that close and launch cruise missile or HARM against them, Pantsir or Tor will shot missiles down.

yes its a problem if more then 4-5-6 cruise missiles 1 mill $ a piece can destroy pantcir-s1-s2 worth 15 mill $.
i have answered your questions even done analysis myself , to which you had no objections aswell , and you still claim it to be best in the world by itself, but then you have to bring s-400 buk etc. 4-5 more pvo systems for it to be effective.
i am talking about pantcir on the move with rest of the army. and yes its turret seems to be very well stabilised , but i still dont have proof it can use its gunns so its missiles only.

buk maybe not able to cover pantcir defended area because its further away and of radar horizon problems for low altitude targets or mountain in between .

Rpg type 7v wrote:yes its a problem if more then 4-5-6 cruise missiles 1 mill $ a piece can destroy pantcir-s1-s2 worth 15 mill $.
i have answered your questions even done analysis myself , to which you had no objections aswell , and you still claim it to be best in the world by itself, but then you have to bring s-400 buk etc. 4-5 more pvo systems for it to be effective.
i am talking about pantcir on the move with rest of the army. and yes its turret seems to be very well stabilised , but i still dont have proof it can use its gunns so its missiles only.

buk maybe not able to cover pantcir defended area because its further away and of radar horizon problems for low altitude targets or mountain in between .

Battery of Pantsirs could as well do themselves against F-35 without IADS. They will still be in passive mode with battery radar detecting targets and delivering them to fire vehicles. They could also work with radars on, because they could shot down antiradar missiles flying against them. 6 cruise missiles will not do much against battery, because they could simultaneously engage 24 targets and even if something comes through, they still have guns to shot them down. But when you talk about one country air defense, than it is not Pantsir only, S-400 only, Patriot only, etc, but whole IADS. Air defense always work in cluster. Russian ground forces also have their own IADS, which consist of S-300V, Buk, Tor, Tunguska, Pantsir,... They always work together and cover each others shadows and IADS is not only SAMs and AA guns, but much much more.

pantcir IS advertised against planes helicopters uavs precision munnitions ,cruise missiles ,They advertise like that it not Me. So it better work . nothing is fair in war.
ok but so what is the price of batery of pancirs?
and its optical system is also very narrow and scanning limited it doesnt have 360 degree coverage.
its not even russian -its french LOL !!!
French Sagem MATIS LR midwave thermal imager with WFOV of 4.17° x 6.25°,
and NFOV of 0.87° x 1.3°, with a 0.05 mrad angular track error;
Acquisition performance: F-16 at 17 to 26 km; AGM-88 HARM at 13 to 15 km; cruise missiles at 11 to 14 km, and glidebombs at ~10 km;

Rpg type 7v wrote:pantcir IS advertised against planes helicopters uavs precision munnitions ,cruise missiles ,They advertise like that it not Me. So it better work . nothing is fair in war.
ok but so what is the price of batery of pancirs?
and its optical system is also very narrow and scanning limited it doesnt have 360 degree coverage.
its not even russian -its french LOL !!!
French Sagem MATIS LR midwave thermal imager with WFOV of 4.17° x 6.25°,
and NFOV of 0.87° x 1.3°, with a 0.05 mrad angular track error;
Acquisition performance: F-16 at 17 to 26 km; AGM-88 HARM at 13 to 15 km; cruise missiles at 11 to 14 km, and glidebombs at ~10 km;

And? Russian produce french thermals by license, anything wrong with this?

You don't know why battery have command post and what delivery of targets mean? They are alerted through command post and search in given sector, not 360°. If they need to find it in wider angle, they will use search radar or tracking radar, specially against smaller targets.

Rpg type 7v wrote:yes its a problem if more then 4-5-6 cruise missiles 1 mill $ a piece can destroy pantcir-s1-s2 worth 15 mill $.

Its not a problem because those cruise missiles are what Pancir-S1 is made for. With 6 of them coming and Pancir-S1 being able to

guide its missiles at 4 targets simultaneously under heavy ECM its no problem for him.

More to it it is more likely that F-35 could fall in the SAM trap made for F-35 and multiple 200 million $ planes

could get destroyed with just few 20 000 $ missiles.

Rpg type 7v wrote:i have answered your questions even done analysis myself , to which you had no objections aswell , and you still claim it to be best in the world by itself,

You did not answer any questions and yes Pancir-S1 is the best short range air defense system.

Rpg type 7v wrote: but then you have to bring s-400 buk etc. 4-5 more pvo systems for it to be effective.
i am talking about pantcir on the move with rest of the army.

In Russian Army you have PVO-V. With "rest of the army" go at the same time S-300V4, BUK-M1/2, TOR-M1/2, Osa-AKM/ Tunguska/ Igla-S etc

Its all set in motion and not just the things mentioned but much more

There is no situation where you will encounter single Pancir-S1 laying in the field haha its all integrated.

Rpg type 7v wrote:buk maybe not able to cover pantcir defended area because its further away

Where further away? Yes I bet its laying down 2000 km in the back.

I bet you heard about layers. Well you have to thank Russians for inventing the multilayered air defense concept first being

implemented and tested with quite efficiency way back in 60ies with the introduction of ASRUK-1 command post who could

(in export version) control up to 8 divisions .

Rpg type 7v wrote:and of radar horizon problems for low altitude targets or mountain in between .

What mountain?

Do you know what is required to do before you start placing your air defense? It is more likely that defenders will use mountains

for their own advantage

Rpg type 7v wrote:pantcir IS advertised against planes helicopters uavs precision munnitions ,cruise missiles ,They advertise like that it not Me. So it better work . nothing is fair in war.

Russians take their air defense more seriously than any other nation on the Earth. Their testing is world class and if they say

that works I believe them.

Rpg type 7v wrote:ok but so what is the price of batery of pancirs?

Its cheap. Look at the price of one Patriot battery - you might get an heart attack.

LINK

Rpg type 7v wrote:and its optical system is also very narrow and scanning limited it doesnt have 360 degree coverage.

It does not need 360° coverage.

Rpg type 7v wrote:its not even russian -its french LOL !!!

What is funny?

Rpg type 7v wrote:Good job, and with 4 missiles left.
but the crew must be very well trained (fast) ,and cant afford a miss.

Have you heard of fully automatic work. You can basically drink a caffe outside the vehicle and watch the fireworks.

And still you have not answered to my questions.

Viktor wrote:

And how will that work - describe it to me. How will you catch emissions from Pancir-S1 and with what?

Do you intend to place one JSTARS above every country to catch and analyze radar signals or what?

And even if you do catch a signal and confirm thats a a Pancir-S1 what will you do next?

Do you intended to have sky covered with fighters right from the start so they can act immediately or send some cruise missiles or what?

you cant compare price of panttcirs with patriot , its a totally different thing , you have to compare pantcir with other short range airdefence systems , and patriot with s-300pmu or other... to each its own.
its funny because french wont let you have ,even licence produce ,their best equipment for sure....
so french air defense systems crotale etc. for certain have better quality electro-optical-infrared aperture then pantcir which puts them ahead of it!
so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.
(i dont want to discuss radars for now.)