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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:13 pm

    dino00 wrote:Contract for two Lada submarines

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20196271757-mIMw0.html


    Nice

    Like I said, Kilo is winding down and Lada revving up

    Higher performance, less sound, smaller crew, no brainer

    Now if only a version with VLS would roll around that would be grand

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    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:47 am

    Like I said, Kilo is winding down and Lada revving up
    You said 'Kilo discontinued', they're completing current orders that were made to give room for Lada (or Kalina) to be ready.

    Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:01 am

    hoom wrote:

    Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.

    yeah, for Ladas. it looks like Makhit has just started working on new AIP sub.



    The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.


    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/27264.html

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 IMG_7699
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    June 27, 2019 St. Petersburg Maritime Engineering Bureau "Malachite" (SPMBM "Malachite"), OJSC See on map
    The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.
    St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau (SPMBM) "Malachite" is developing, on its own initiative, the project of a new small submarine of coastal action. A feature of the project that received the P-750B cipher is the use of an air-independent power installation (VNEU) of a fundamentally new type.

    About this correspondent Sudostroenie.info told in the demo center of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (which includes the Malachite SPMBM) during the forum "Army-2019".

    As follows from the booklet SPMBM "Malachite", the length of the ship will be about 65.5 m, width - about 7 m. The submarine will have a normal displacement of about 1,450 cubic meters. m and the maximum depth of immersion 300 m. The total speed of the underwater stroke - 18 knots.

    The continuous submarine cruising range, taking into account the VNEU, is about 1,200 miles, the total cruising range is up to 4,300 miles.

    The power plant of the ship includes two gas-turbine engines of a closed cycle with a capacity of 2x400 kW, as well as a rowing electric motor with a capacity of 2500 kW.

    The armament of the ship may include torpedoes, rockets, as well as 533 mm mines.
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    Post  kumbor on Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:16 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    hoom wrote:

    Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.

    yeah, for Ladas. it looks like  Makhit has just started working on new AIP sub.



    The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.



    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/27264.html

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 IMG_7699
    .
    June 27, 2019 St. Petersburg Maritime Engineering Bureau "Malachite" (SPMBM "Malachite"), OJSC See on map
    The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.
    St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau (SPMBM) "Malachite" is developing, on its own initiative, the project of a new small submarine of coastal action. A feature of the project that received the P-750B cipher is the use of an air-independent power installation (VNEU) of a fundamentally new type.

    About this correspondent Sudostroenie.info told in the demo center of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (which includes the Malachite SPMBM) during the forum "Army-2019".

    As follows from the booklet SPMBM "Malachite", the length of the ship will be about 65.5 m, width - about 7 m. The submarine will have a normal displacement of about 1,450 cubic meters. m and the maximum depth of immersion 300 m. The total speed of the underwater stroke - 18 knots.

    The continuous submarine cruising range, taking into account the VNEU, is about 1,200 miles, the total cruising range is up to 4,300 miles.

    The power plant of the ship includes two gas-turbine engines of a closed cycle with a capacity of 2x400 kW, as well as a rowing electric motor with a capacity of 2500 kW.

    The armament of the ship may include torpedoes, rockets, as well as 533 mm mines.

    Closed cycle gas turbine... High test peroxide again?
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:56 pm


    Looks like that diesel based AIP didn't work out so they switched to standard approach

    It happens, better to try something fresh than constantly go with usual stuff



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    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:55 pm

    Different organisations.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:29 pm

    https://tass.com/defense/1067683

    Russia offers to India joint production of Amur submarine with AIP.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:54 pm

    Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh? pirat
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:32 am

    Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:29 pm

    dino00 wrote:Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU

    TASS says 2022

    Two submarines of the project "Lada" will lay no earlier than 2022

    Submarines surrender in 2025 and 2027, the head of the Admiralty Shipyards, Alexander Buzakov, said


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6650513
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    Post  kumbor on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:58 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU

    TASS says 2022

    Two submarines of the project "Lada" will lay no earlier than 2022

    Submarines surrender in 2025 and 2027, the head of the Admiralty Shipyards, Alexander Buzakov, said


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6650513

    You obviously mean that subs will be LAID DOWN not earlier than 2021, and that their HANDOVER to VMFRF will be no later than 2025-2027! Laying down corresponds to ЗАКЛАДКА, ЗАЛОЖЕН in russian. СДАЧА готового корабля, начало службы после всех испытаний начинается ПОДНЯТИЕМ ФЛАГА, после чего корабль считается полностью принятым и полностью БОЕСПОСОБНЫМ. СДАЧА corresponds to HANDOVER, or IN SERVICE.


    Last edited by kumbor on Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:37 pm

    Looks like Kronshtadt is getting close to starting sea trials
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 18-7700097-2019-07-18-13-02-03-p1870472
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 18-7700097-2019-07-18-13-02-18-p1870482-snapshot-00-02
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    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:31 am

    Is gonna be in the line for Navy Day
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 25-7721793-700-kronshtadt-sudostroenie
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 25-7723989-677-kronshtadt-neva-25.07.2019
    Man that looks like it must be really small inside

    Stats page I think from IMDS
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 25-7724029-677-lada-osnovnye-kharakteristiki-armiya-2019
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    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:07 am

    Kronshtadt in drydock
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 27-7989917-b-586-kronshtadt-spb-26.10.2019-6-
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 18 23-7981641-677-kronshtadt-av-23.10.2019
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    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:59 pm

    Russian Navy RFS B-586 Kronshtadt, a Lada Class submarine of project 677 under construction on the Admiralty Shipyard in StPetersburg, Russia on 27th November 2019.

    Photo from World Military Industry


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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:42 am

    Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

    I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

    A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

    Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:47 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

    I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

    A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

    Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:56 am

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP

    For comprting against sweedish, german, french and now chinese and japanese subs on the export market they need a state of the art AIP system. That's the main goal.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:32 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves...

    Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?
    There has been some recent movement on actually progressing the AIP
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7852p50-russian-air-independent-propulsion-aip-submarine-technology#270103
    But yeah there are some things about Russian military/spending decisions that are seemingly incomprehensible.


    The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
    If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:23 pm

    The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
    If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.

    Well that is what I am thinking... in the 1990s they had nuclear power plants that were intended to power radar equipped satellites in a relatively low earth orbit... which meant they were not in stationary orbit so couldn't rely on solar panels for power so they developed these nuclear power cells they said would also be useful for planetary exploration. Something like 4-10 kilowatts, which I agree is not huge but it creates that level of power for about 13 years continuously which is pretty good... but the bonus is that it generates heat so in cold places like siberia or Mars or the Moon the cooling system can be used to heat a building or small complex as a by product of the power plant working, so the electricity is over and above that.

    These things are relatively small so you could put several on a small sub and when you are not moving around it can be charging batteries and running co2 scrubbers etc etc and running the electronics... and it is certainly a direction that could create some rather useful things... imagine a small compact power source you could put into an airship or an aircraft to power it for years...

    If the new engine is not some sort of ramjet engine then it could be useful for generating energy on a sub... the future of vehicle technology is electric, as electric motors become more powerful and more efficient vehicle designs are going to change from being centred around an internal combustion engine to all electric with options for electricity supply being plugged in like a battery. For large vehicles you have solar and of course compact gas turbine type energy generators for potential energy generation... note gas turbines in tanks are not very efficient because tanks are heavy and short distance acceleration and then stopping is not an efficient way to use a gas turbine. Gas turbines are better run at an efficient rpm and kept at that efficient speed to generate electricity which then runs electric motors to accelerate and drive the vehicle or charges batteries or capacitor banks for when large amounts of electricity are needed...

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP

    But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power... Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

    If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
    Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
    They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
    A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

    10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

    And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
    Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

    If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
    Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
    They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
    A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

    10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

    And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
    Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.

    Russia have the nuclear core of the Poseidon, and the reactor of the Harmony network can be used as low power endurance increaser.

    But generally the non nuclear air independent propulsion has many drawbacks, and in many parameters inferior to the diesel subs.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:05 am

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.

    But that is the problem smaller and cheaper is already available in the form of conventional subs... the AIP is intended to give the sub endurance comparable to nukes.

    For a submarine having continuous reliable electricity sources is all that matters... electric current separates the hydrogen from the oxygen in water so a continual supply of oxygen to breath and hydrogen to burn that is all you need... a diesel engine sized block of lithium ion batteries or better to replace the existing diesel engines... a tiny gas turbine that runs on hydrogen and a small 1MW nuclear battery as used with the Pereveset or whatever it is called...

    BTW one of the first nuclear power systems they developed for space was TOPAZ and to quote Wiki:

    The first TOPAZ reactor operated for 1,300 hours and then was shut down for detailed examination. It was capable of delivering 5 kW of power for 3–5 years from 12 kg (26 lb) of fuel. Reactor mass was ~ 320 kg (710 lb).

    First tested in 1971...

    Their current naval satellites of the Legenda family replacements should have something similar to power them...

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