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    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

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    GarryB
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:51 am

    congress funds sls 70+ tonns heavy booster regularly and it wont fail. russia has nothing in class 25+ toons. and it postponed 35 ton version to 2025 ooouch!!!

    So you actually are just a pathetic cock measuring fanboy troll... who gives a fuck what the US is spending money on... their space programme is DIFFERENT from Russias space programme.

    You would have to be a tool to think because US is funding a xx ton rocket that Russia must fund something bigger.

    I can't put you on my ignore list because it is my job to help moderate this forum, but please to me a favour and post less often with your whiny... why isn't Russia making this or that BS, because America is doing this and that.... it is quite pathetic.

    How old are you by the way?


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    Rmf
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    congress funds sls 70+ tonns heavy booster regularly and it wont fail. russia has nothing in class 25+ toons. and it postponed 35 ton version to 2025 ooouch!!!

    So you actually are just a pathetic cock measuring fanboy troll... who gives a fuck what the US is spending money on... their space programme is DIFFERENT from Russias space programme.

    You would have to be a tool to think because US is funding a xx ton rocket that Russia must fund something bigger.

    I can't put you on my ignore list because it is my job to help moderate this forum, but please to me a favour and post less often with your whiny... why isn't Russia making this or that BS, because America is doing this and that.... it is quite pathetic.

    How old are you by the way?
    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.
    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.
    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.


    Last edited by Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Rmf
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rmf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz
    And if you knew economics, you would know that prices drop for outsiders vs internal as they use Rubles.  Example is Su-35. Before Ruble drop it was $60~M per aircraft USD, after? $30M per aircraft.  Same amount of Rubles though (or more).  Real basic actually.  So if price for launch was $100M in 2014, it would be half that now.  Workers get paid in Rubles moron.

    And as papa said, they announced a heavy launcher in Jan this year.  Once again and go back and read.  Your posts mimic that of Ultron.  Same BS.

    if you want to be competitive by devaluing its wrong move.
    and 100 mill -those prices are currrent. Want to know why they are current? Because Rockets take years to be built. 36-48 months typically. They require a long lead in time in materials, which means any rocket bought contract by the late 2014 when this quote was made is about half built and hasn't flown yet.

    In fact, the reason Proton and Soyuzs have been blowing up the last few years is because the work force that made both rockets for decades retired in the mid 2000s, and their less skilled successors rockets are now just flying.
    and even after devaluing falcon 9 IS CHEAPER! like i posted many times but you seem to skip that part.
    this is Russia's MO and the world sees it. it commits to modernizing Western-style "to keep up", but also for the regime to illustrate to its people it is compoenent , and it takes a few steps in that direction. And then because russia is tremendously corrupt and incompetently run, it ends up buying just enough of whatever "new thing" (in this case not even funny -0 ANGARA IN 2015) it has been doing to consume pretty extreme amounts of money, while delaying retirement or replacement of legacy platforms indefinitely.
    The result, rather than cutting costs by homogenizing platforms and cutting cost of ownership, is to actually increase cost of ownership by being forced to pay for a lot of the old, some of the old-modernised, and a few enough of the new to make it very expensive.! like we see even in launch facilities ,blowing money and time on first launch site- for soyuz, Laughing  ,very wasteful , instead on focusing only on angara launch pads if they want to go that way.

    You didn't post anything of value, and why? You posted that the rocket is simply 100 million USD vs 75 million USD.  But did you know that, that is at the old rates? New rates would make it roughly 50 million USD vs the 75 million USD.  Thank you conversion, and well, you can blame the west for the speculation attacks.  Can you prove that it costs 100 million now to build those rockets?  When those rockets were built, they were built under the budget via Rubles, not USD.  Thus, in that case, the price valuation in Rubles would not have changed, as it was already paid for.  Its valuation in USD on the end is different but that makes no difference in the end, and if you actually done any research at all, you will see in the Russia thread how KVS, Austin, I and others have had to explain it.  Simply put, you are trolling one section of the forums because you "Think" you know what you are talking about, when you do not.

    And the process of building these rockets hasnt changed, and there has been clear indication of sabotage and KVS has pointed that out in the past (installing sensors upside down?).  And now, it is up to Roscosmos on how they pay their people and not the state since the company is now independent.  And those old costs doesn't matter anymore anyway, cause from then on, any new orders will entail new prices, and this is based upon the idea that after these rockets are used, they will have to build new ones at new rates.  Employees are paid in Rubles, thus their life style doesn't change unless they rely entirely on importing from outside, and that is entirely their own decision to do so rather than buying from their own manufacturers (buying a Mercedes rather than a Lada as example).  Your idea of Russia is sad and pathetic and a real example of your trolling, so have fun explaining to the mods on that.
    common knowledge  Wink , hell eveen chief of chrunichev said it was 105 mill for proton-m now 75 mill.. but im sure you will find other evidence to counter me finally or not?. proton is sinking and soon when usa gets those cheap launchers man rated soyuz is over too, if you cant see that i cant help you. angara was needed 10 years ago and to be exclusive. Building launch facilities in vostochny for soyuz first blowing billions of rubbles , just shows Russia cant let go, cant shut them down fast and so everyone loses.
    actually it did let go - of excellent engine... Its a shame americans were the one who re-discovered nk-33, russia wanted them destroyed. instead of using nk-33 from 70s to 80-90s , and getting that cheap efficient modular launcher online, it hide them... just shows how backward and corrupt things in russia can be.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:54 pm

    You never provided any though yourself.  Doing simple math on the other hand says otherwise.  As mentioned, it is done in Rubles and nothing else.  GarryB is also correct on his ascessment on you as well.

    If 1 USD was 35 rub in 2014 and now 1 usd is 78 rub, how much would the rocket cost now in USD term and ruble term?  Dont go by what x or y said, go by the math itself.  If it was 108M in 2014, that would mean that it was 3780000000 rub.  Now divide that by 78 makes it $48,461,538.46 USD at current exchange rate.

    Since all programs in Russia, budget included is done in Rubles, they will get same amount back regardless of the exchange rate.  If newer ones cost same amount in Rubles, then it is still less overall.  But lets say parts are imported and costs rise to 50B rubles:  it would be $64B.

    And as well, never go by first months of info.  Remember when heavy launcher was cancelled, now its back? That was in 1 year, maybe a time span of a couple of months.  There is signed contracts as well as anticipation.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

    Rmf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    congress funds sls 70+ tonns heavy booster regularly and it wont fail. russia has nothing in class 25+ toons. and it postponed 35 ton version to 2025 ooouch!!!

    So you actually are just a pathetic cock measuring fanboy troll... who gives a fuck what the US is spending money on... their space programme is DIFFERENT from Russias space programme.

    You would have to be a tool to think because US is funding a xx ton rocket that Russia must fund something bigger.

    I can't put you on my ignore list because it is my job to help moderate this forum, but please to me a favour and post less often with your whiny... why isn't Russia making this or that BS, because America is doing this and that.... it is quite pathetic.

    How old are you by the way?
    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.
    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.
    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.
    He is right though.  And this took me an all 3 mins to grab from my broken smartphone: http://tass.ru/en/science/850822

    And China is even further behind in their spacecrafts.  But that doesnt stop them.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rmf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    congress funds sls 70+ tonns heavy booster regularly and it wont fail. russia has nothing in class 25+ toons. and it postponed 35 ton version to 2025 ooouch!!!

    So you actually are just a pathetic cock measuring fanboy troll... who gives a fuck what the US is spending money on... their space programme is DIFFERENT from Russias space programme.

    You would have to be a tool to think because US is funding a xx ton rocket that Russia must fund something bigger.

    I can't put you on my ignore list because it is my job to help moderate this forum, but please to me a favour and post less often with your whiny... why isn't Russia making this or that BS, because America is doing this and that.... it is quite pathetic.

    How old are you by the way?
    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.
    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.
    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.
    He is right though.  And this took me an all 3 mins to grab from my broken smartphone: http://tass.ru/en/science/850822

    And China is even further behind in their spacecrafts.  But that doesnt stop them.
    nope hes not.
    https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/attach/101/101944_ISS%20RESEARCH.doc
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russian-space-agency-scales-back-164735434.html

    https://rns.online/english/military/...ug-2016-01-20/
    The policy of cost reduction and cost optimization has enabled the space center Khrunichev to reduce the cost of maintenance of rockets "proton-M" and their cost, told journalists the head of state Corporation "Roscosmos" Igor Komarov when visiting the Vostochny cosmodrome (Amur region).

    "If earlier the cost of launch using the "Proton" was approximately $90 million, now it is about $70 million contract, for at least five launches," — said Komarov.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:24 pm

    Key word is about.  Rough estimation.  If we had the figures from the contracts, it would be easier.

    We also need to put into other perspectives here.  Where at one point the production used imported materials, now has to be done at home.  Angara fixes this.  Of course Angara should have been done earlier, but the fact it wasnt means now they are.  The new heavy rocket should also have been done long ago as well, sadly it wasnt the case now and we have to wait.

    As for the budget, as much as it sucks as low as it is now compared to before 600M rubles less, in its current form in former exchange it was $40B for the space variant of SAP.  As noticed, costs also dropped too so it also balances out a bit more.

    If you provide the contract for per rocket launch and costs, we can both do the figures here.  Of course it would have to be in rubles.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:41 pm

    Rmf wrote:.....................................
    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.


    Blames moderator for his ignorance, this is the first. lol1

    Rmf wrote:
    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.
    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.

    And Russia is building the hardware you keep ranting about, seriously how old are you?Suspect

    China ahead of anything in space? lol1  

    Soon even India will be ahead of China at the rate Hindus are going. Chincoms still can't even make a proper knockoff of a Cold War era jet engine.

    Proportionate to economy and compared to USA, Russian space budget is fine. But you keep driveling, it is quite amusing.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:13 am

    Even US buys Russian hardware.  EU uses Russian hardware.

    GarryB
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:47 am

    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.

    A bad moderator would not have my patience and would have banned you as a troll a while ago.

    I admit... I am not some 10 year old that thinks Russia is only super if it has the biggest rockets and the fastest rockets... whether it needs them or not... no matter how much it costs.

    The Soviet Union tried that and now where is it?

    The US is trying it and look at how that is turning out...

    The winner wont be the country with the biggest and bestest Rockets.

    There are no winners... but plenty of losers who just don't understand the game.

    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.

    They want a space programme and they want to do a lot of things but when the economy is being damaged by western countries you stop buying the expensive stuff and you get the essentials and the extras as you can afford them.

    Only a dumb fool would continue to buy like the idiot down the street with the unlimited credit card... their time will come.

    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.

    Yeah... getting stuff into space is nothing if you can't get an aircraft carrier out of the solar system.

    Me being on your ignore list doesn't help me much at all.. as a mod I have to read your crap anyway.

    Building launch facilities in vostochny for soyuz first blowing billions of rubbles , just shows Russia cant let go, cant shut them down fast and so everyone loses.

    Hahaha... we have a risk management expert here... why didn't you tell them back then how stupid they were being building facilities for proven in service rocket system when they should have built them exclusively for a new unproven rocket family that might get funding or might not... I mean why build facilities for a rocket in production and use when you could have designed them for new unproven rockets that are still being tested now...

    Even US buys Russian hardware. EU uses Russian hardware.

    The west spends an enormous amount of money in comparison to what Russia spends but Russia for some reason must lead in space.

    Leading in space gives you magical special powers that make you safe and prevent your economy from collapsing and everyone respects you.

    Sad fact is that with all the anti Russian propaganda in the world today most average people in the west don't respect Russia... and that is because of ignorance... and there is nothing Russia can actually do about that because they are not respected or trusted... spending a trillion dollars and having a huge 250 ton to geostationary orbit and you will see the video on CNN showing the brand new US rocket and what it is capable of... or they wont even mention it.

    Russia has more important things to spend money on than matching the US or China in such feats.


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:10 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Even US buys Russian hardware.  EU uses Russian hardware.
    so ? russia uses many western components too....
    but in usa it is working on it ,with privatisation of LEO for smaller companies and getting heavy launcher for ULA conglomerate ,and in few years there will be 0 russian hardware by the looks of it.
    hell, the only reason the US is able to afford SLS+Constellation capsule with it's 19 billion a year budget, was to retire the Space Shuttle....
    the Space shuttle could have flown another 30 years, the OLDEST shuttle had only gone through one third of it's design life. But it came down to money. So usa let it go.
    For Russia its a death of space agency, if you have budget of 1,7 billion as roskosmos, its very benefitial if you can make additional 1,7 bill with 20-25 commercial launches , and that is going to die down with Usa private companies doing LEO work.
    do you know why did TR-107 engine go nowhere? It was said to be THE best performing engine ever built but it just sort of... died in 90s.like RS-2200 or the NERVA Nuclear Thermal Rocket, it was a fantastically developed, finished engine, that fired, and was flight ready but never flew.... But the developmental work was invaluable, and when funding ended and the project shut down (and folks reassigned), nothing went to waste, even though priorities changed. Lockheed Martin for example, kept working on Linear Aerospike engines for years.
    so what happened to the TR-107/TR-106? It's core development team got hired in the mid 2000s buy this crazy internet startup guy named Elon Musk who really liked their ideas. And he gave them money. And a few years later, the TR-106/107 (the 107 specifically) made it's return, modernized and refined, in the form of the Merlin-1 engine.
    russia had nk-33,-43 and instead of using it in light eelv launcher 1,3,5,7, blocks,and further developing it, it wanted it destroyed.....,its only now using it in light soyuz launcher and that is untill supply of engines run out.


    Last edited by Rmf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:.....................................
    youre a bad moderator , a shame, and a awufull person too it seems, i am not going to decend that low to your levels.


    Blames moderator for his ignorance, this is the first. lol1

    Rmf wrote:
    i never mentioned anyone here personally but your fanboy bs has hit the roof... russia wants to go to moon and wants that CAPABILITY anyway, and you need something for that - hardware.
    now we see they even cant get angara -a5v on the line ,and thats 35t to LEO nothing special ....space belongs to usa and china and russia is stuck in low earth orbit.
    you are on my ignore list from now on so dont bother.

    And Russia is building the hardware you keep ranting about, seriously how old are you?Suspect

    China ahead of anything in space? lol1  

    Soon even India will be ahead of China at the rate Hindus are going. Chincoms still can't even make a proper knockoff of a Cold War era jet engine.

    Proportionate to economy and compared to USA, Russian space budget is fine. But you keep driveling, it is quite amusing.
    your talk about russian ""building"" reminds me of talk alcoholic gives when he is questioned when is he going to quit drinking.... its ""quitting"" can be veeeery long, even -NEVER.... Laughing
    you naive boy building space vehicles, launch operations, contracts, launch windows, etc... everything is timecritical something more something less but everything about space work is and if you dont deliver on time there is a price to pay!

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:57 am

    Rmf wrote:Blah, blah, blah ... russia uses many western components too.... Blah, blah, blah ...

    Time to ban the troll.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:36 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Rmf wrote:Blah, blah, blah ... russia uses many western components too.... Blah, blah, blah ...

    Time to ban the troll.

    1 more on ignore list....

    http://vefnews.com/en/news/science/flight-moon-russia-will-need-six-rockets



    ""The lack of superheavy rocket and economic crisis could put an end to Russia's ambitious plans for the drive into deep space. Despite the high market share of launches, in the general market space Russia has slightly more than 1%. Without extra superheavy rocket impossible to organize missions to the Moon, Mars and asteroids. The light rockets using - the same, that use a bicycle for transportation of unassembled antique furniture. ""

    Thus, Russia has lost its leadership in the launch payload to high-trajectory. Rocket "Soyuz", "Proton" and "Angara" is not able to effectively support promising long space missions. For example, to create a 500-ton ship for the flight to Mars, will need up to one-two dozen launches "Angara" (up to two rockets per month for a year), while the SLS will need to run only four rockets. The cost of the rocket is the most of share of the total cost of the mission. So that excess number of starts leads to a very strong rise in the cost of the entire program. Simply put, in the development of deep space operates a simple rule: the heavier rockets, the more profitable its use per unit of payload. ""

    aand... slss will be launching satelites on 1st launch , russia angara -a5 launched - nothing. talk about waste of resourses...
    http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA_Space_Launch_Systems_First_Flight_to_Send_Small_Sci_Tech_Satellites_Into_Space_999.html

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:54 am

    Time to ban the troll.

    I don't ban people for not agreeing with me.

    ... it would become a very boring place if I did.

    ""The lack of superheavy rocket and economic crisis could put an end to Russia's ambitious plans for the drive into deep space. Despite the high market share of launches, in the general market space Russia has slightly more than 1%. Without extra superheavy rocket impossible to organize missions to the Moon, Mars and asteroids. The light rockets using - the same, that use a bicycle for transportation of unassembled antique furniture. ""

    Actually that is bollocks.

    For very very long range flights... ie to other stars the ship involved will have to be too big to launch from the ground and will have to be built in parts or modules in orbit.

    As such it makes much more sense to start now.

    Assembling components in orbit with lock together components and then flying up the fuel and food and equipment means you can scale the ship and the load to the distance required... whether it is for the moon or for Pluto.

    Actually I would think a large enough ship and you could realise an idea of mine where you scoop up some space junk from current orbit and reduce it to a very fine powder... almost to the level of just being very small clusters of atoms. In a ring shaped particle accelerator you could then run the material around and around getting faster and faster using a magnetic field and then eject the material out the back as propulsion... not very high thrust compared with a chemical rocket but the exhaust speed could be enormous and you could scoop up free hydrogen atoms in flight to continuously fuel it...

    Obviously not for use as primary propulsion but a good use for waste material of all types...

    The modules and assembly in space concepts are necessary to further space exploration anyway.

    simple rule: the heavier rockets, the more profitable its use per unit of payload. ""

    Except when you factor in the huge cost of a large rocket that you might use a couple of times in total, compared with much cheaper large scale mass produced rockets... rockets you will be using anyway.


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:22 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Time to ban the troll.

    I don't ban people for not agreeing with me.

    ... it would become a very boring place if I did.

    ""The lack of superheavy rocket and economic crisis could put an end to Russia's ambitious plans for the drive into deep space. Despite the high market share of launches, in the general market space Russia has slightly more than 1%. Without extra superheavy rocket impossible to organize missions to the Moon, Mars and asteroids. The light rockets using - the same, that use a bicycle for transportation of unassembled antique furniture. ""

    Actually that is bollocks.

    For very very long range flights... ie to other stars the ship involved will have to be too big to launch from the ground and will have to be built in parts or modules in orbit.

    As such it makes much more sense to start now.

    Assembling components in orbit with lock together components and then flying up the fuel and food and equipment means you can scale the ship and the load to the distance required... whether it is for the moon or for Pluto.

    Actually I would think a large enough ship and you could realise an idea of mine where you scoop up some space junk from current orbit and reduce it to a very fine powder... almost to the level of just being very small clusters of atoms. In a ring shaped particle accelerator you could then run the material around and around getting faster and faster using a magnetic field and then eject the material out the back as propulsion... not very high thrust compared with a chemical rocket but the exhaust speed could be enormous and you could scoop up free hydrogen atoms in flight to continuously fuel it...

    Obviously not for use as primary propulsion but a good use for waste material of all types...

    The modules and assembly in space concepts are necessary to further space exploration anyway.


    simple rule: the heavier rockets, the more profitable its use per unit of payload. ""


    Except when you factor in the huge cost of a large rocket that you might use a couple of times in total, compared with much cheaper large scale mass produced rockets... r
    ockets you will be using anyway.
    thats not it ,even if you factore in better percentages of payload/total launch weight , imagine if modular angara was built in late 70s early 80s with nk-33 at its base and retired soyuz, proton,tsyklon ,rokot, zenit not built, etc. and that the vostochny was built in mid 90s. the very idea that you need modules limited by the size of vagons is apsurd!!! its not landlocked baikonur, the very town - icbm polygon-- Svobodny , is actualy a port at river Zeya which is a tributary to Amur and they are all navigable so you can transport via northern corridor -arktik-pacific with ships, thus much larger URM modules can be transported and assembled than could ever be carried on trains.
    you could built another type -URM-4 larger common core with 4 nk-33 in the bottom and clustered in some a5 version you would have 20 nk-33 engines thats 70t payload right there and from small  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz-2-1v    to big ,urm-1/urm-4 combinations ,all run on mass produced nk-33.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:36 am

    So they have lots of options... again this is not a bad thing.

    Any long range human mission will start years before sending equipment the way they crossed Antarctica... send supply dumps on the way that can be used to reduce the amount of stuff they will need to take on the actual journey... send sensors and robots to prepare and stockpile useful materials, or build tunnels the crew could adapt to living quarters when they arrive.

    It took a Saturn 5 to get to the moon... there is no way you could go to Mars with one rocket... no matter how big... so if they have to split up the launches... one of the space craft to be sent empty of the enormous amount of fuel that will be needed, and the next 2-3 launches with the fuel and water required for the trip and then another launch for foot and onboard essential equipment and of course another launch to take up a crew to transfer the material on board the assembled ship and to take it out of earth orbit on its way to Mars...


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:38 pm

    they have 0 options!! , very litle money and very much corruption and incompetence + wastefullnes.
    No. Youre just one of those people who will keep moving the goal post ever further back in a pathetic attempt to just not be wrong about things or admit they backed the wrong horse.
    Let me remind here that angara has been in development for 20 years now.... and angara 5v promised in 10 years  Laughing  , you can bet even that will slip to 15 yrs, and so a 35t launcher will take 35 years to develop  clown  while usa and china will be going into solar system , Russia will be stuck in LEO like its 1966 again. geek  .. china is making own space station without russia and usa will have its too made from 2-3 sls launches, russia will have nothing.!!
    how long did it take to develop 100t energia? 12 years?

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:44 pm


    this shows how ISP is increasing very little after certain point while you increase engine cost ,weight,complexity ,and reduce tolerances.... nk -33 was man rated from start and at sweet spot of pressure/isp for LOX/RP-1 range.
    instead of redirecting from stupid angara in 90s to nk-33 and building large- 4 engined and small - 1 engined ,common core URM and combining them to make great launchers ,and killling soyuz zenit proton rokot ,once and for all and mass producing nk-33 1 per day or more which would really reduce cost and developing time and make easy training this way ,they just blown to bits by agressive private sector ,and new launch systems from big powers...
    while they were sitting on their ass collecting profits, ignoring kuznetsow who didnt have lobby like chrunichev in moscow or energia...., many chiefs of roscosmos were changed in last years from military to civilian to rogozin just showing how out of touch with reality there are.
    all while time passes and failed launches accumulate and increasing insuranse thus reducing profits and even worse-customers.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:38 pm

    Rmf wrote:..............................
    this shows how ISP is increasing very little after certain point while you increase engine cost ,weight,complexity ,and reduce tolerances.... nk -33 was man rated from start and at sweet spot of pressure/isp for LOX/RP-1 range............................


    Hey Rmf, you know what, maybe they should stick with what works and just use good old V2? If you go full retard then go full retard all the way!!! Razz

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:12 am

    Rmf wrote:
    this shows how ISP is increasing very little after certain point while you increase engine cost ,weight,complexity ,and reduce tolerances.... nk -33 was man rated from start and at sweet spot of pressure/isp for LOX/RP-1 range.
    instead of redirecting from stupid angara in 90s to nk-33 and building large- 4 engined and small - 1 engined ,common core URM and combining them to make great launchers ,and killling soyuz zenit proton rokot ,once and for all and mass producing nk-33 1 per day or more which would really reduce cost and developing time and make easy training this way ,they just blown to bits by agressive private sector ,and new launch systems from big powers...
    while they were sitting on their ass collecting profits, ignoring kuznetsow who didnt have lobby like chrunichev in moscow or energia...., many chiefs of roscosmos were changed in last years from military to civilian to rogozin just showing how out of touch with reality there are.
    all while time passes and failed launches accumulate and increasing insuranse thus reducing profits and even worse-customers.

    The figure shows kgf/cm^2 on the x-axis. So the RD-180 series engines produce a chamber pressure 260/150 = 1.7 times larger than the NK-33.
    The RD-191 has a vacuum thrust of 2.1 million Newtons while the NK-33 has a vacuum thrust of 1.6 million Newtons. The specific impulse for both
    is almost the same (338 vs. 331 seconds) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_rocket_engines).

    So all that this graph tells you is that to get more thrust from a chemical rocket engine you need to increase the chamber pressure. This
    is because the other parameters in the thrust equation (aka ideal exhaust velocity equation) cannot be changed all that much. These other
    variables are the specific heat ratio, the combustion temperature (magical materials don't exist to make this into an easy to tune parameter),
    and the average molecular weight of exhaust gases (no magical elements exist to make this into an easy to tune parameter). The fact that
    the ISP is "stalled" reflects the limitation of chemical propulsion. Modern engines are basically as efficient as they can be. The only way
    to really change the ISP is to transition to another technology, such as nuclear driven ion propulsion.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:55 pm

    not so fast... the best is enemy of good enough. the nk-33 beats RD in weight and cost. its lighter and cheaper and has higher safety margins for human flight.
    you know rd-107 is from man rated soyuz.
    rd-170 is 4 chamber from zenit ,rd-180 is 2 chamber, and rd-191 is single chamber. while  rd-170 is about 10 million , -180 5 mill ,-191 2,5 mill ,nk -33 can be made for 1,1 mill.
    and nk-33 is 1 tonn lighter then rd-191 (1,2/2,2t) so less mass to haul to space.
    the best way was to replace engine on zenit with 4-nk-33 and use it as big urm-4 (zenith size ,also 4 times as big as angaras urm) and angara urm-1 to use 1 nk-33...and then just mass produce nk-33s,
    1 engine per day thats true mass production ,this way they produce too many different engines with different propelants spreading to wide and thin manpower, engineering ,training ,and production with already limited capabilities.
    then you can atach those urm-1 to each other angara style 1-3-5 ,nk-33 engines in the booster base .
    or attach them to urm-4 making many possible booster combinations.-6-8-14.
    you could cluster also heavy urm-4 angara style on their own. 4-12-20.
    energia had 20 engines in base so that wouldnt be a problem today. heavy booster would be simmilar to this proposition from energia http://defence.ru/article/2277/  78t to  LEO orbit which is logical since 100t N-1 had 30 nk-33 engines in base and this launcher has 20... but with hydrogen III stage you get real bump and 95t to LEO. or in english http://www.russianspaceweb.com/energia5kv.html

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:33 am

    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz


    I can feel your pain.
    Is Horrible. Catastrophic. The imbecile of Putin have no fucking clue of what should be
    the priorities of Russia. Russia only way it will get respect ever in the west is by becoming
    useful to the west. and what else other than cheap Gas and space rockets Russia is needed?

    Russia is cutting its own legs by canceling its most important projects in space. Now is when Russia needs to increase its budget in space and NOT reduce it. Instead of wasting money
    in BUllshit olympics ,sports to have a few days of glory IF they win a gold medal , they will do far far far fAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more taking the Absolute leadership in space and not just
    being competitive.  Russia needs to go to the moon and mars and do it alone. it needs its own Space station and be the first to have a base in the moon. Those things should be ABSOLUTE
    priority for Russia..  Is not about bragging rights , but about Russia selling its image in the world ,by becoming incredibly attractive western Business and investors to Russia. Is above proving Europe that Russia can be an alternative to United States in where is really more prestigious.

    Once Russia reach the moon with humans ,can anyone imagine how much companies will fight in the west to have the flags of their companies installed in the moon? or their names of their companies attached in Russian space rockets and Rovers in the moon? the lot of money Russia could make selling real time life television in the moon.  Instead mr PUTIN waste Russia money in Bullshit sports and a maintaining a very large rusty soviet navy that is not necessary at all.
    Decommision half of its navy ,their surface warships ,their oldest warships that is.. and stop
    wasting so much money in sports and bribery of nations and you will see how the money
    shows up to have a very strong space program.

    look at how rasputin waste its money

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-orders-payment-of-115-to-wwii-veterans/516630.html

    Putin huge ignorance in how to properly advertise Russia is costing them billions and billions
    in sanctions and endless wars the americans create .  that needs to wake up and stop living in the soviet past. this is really sad that a nation with so much potential is being hold back by a Government that have no clue of what they need to do to avoid being a punching bag of Americans and continue to be disrespected .It is as if Russian government love to be humiliated and disrespected again and again. not taking seriously in the world. other than a regional power.

    The Americans are seeking to militarize space ,plain and simple. not if..but when. and they plan to do it as soon as possible. Full spectrum domination of space. This means they want to block Russia from using space. and they can do it. So this is where the money in Russia needs to be spend.  MR putin is worried about the ABM missile shield of US in Europe.. then why the fuck he is not worried about Americans heavy boosters plans to deploy ANY heavy thing in space? is he nuts?  does Putin aware the ABM missile shield could also be deployed in space too if you have super heavy space rockets?

    IF Russia continues ignoring how important is for them to be dominating force in space, Russia will one day will wake up with anti air defenses deployed in space or any kind of dual purpose technology ,that will disrupt all their satellites and communications in space and will also sabotage their own space program too .By distrupting their civilians Space launches to explore space. something as simple as a rail gun ,deployed in space could defeat a Soyuz mission and Russia never be aware of what happened to their rockets ,how it exploded or what caused it.
    Or many other ways or weapons ,the possibilities are endless ,once you have super heavy rockets that can reach space.

    Russia is not going to win the support of Europe ,by cheap Gas or by cheap travels to ISS.
    the only way Russia will win the respect and support of Europe. Is by becoming LEADING in technology and nation development. By creating things the west loves and likes. This is how you become a leader. by winning the hearts of Europeans with the things you develop. not by paying soviets their pensions in the baltics or giving discounts in Gas or space tickets to the ISS . Laughing


    This is why ,even myself ,as much as i hate ,how bad is American Imperialism for the world.
    i also can understand why so many traitors and liberals in Russia. It is because English languange is better than Russian? or because western Girls are prettiers? no.. Traitors and Liberals exist in Russia because they look how much better ,how much developed is the technology in the west ,how much stronger are their business and developed their countries.
    in other words Better Business and better prosperity. Then Russian is not going to stop Americans to continue its Cold War and proxy wars against them , until Russia takes a leadership role in technology and business. and reducing the funding of its space program and its heavy rockets projects ,delaying them a decade is beyond idiocy. completely retarded.
    The "pivot to Asia" . lol1 i see no hope for Russia ever ,it continues being happy to be a second place of the west . Just think about this. IF Russia was heavily developed nation ,
    The UKrainian revolution ,the Euromaidan in Kiev will have NEVER HAPPENED.
    And everyone in Europe will be protesting NOT to isolate Russia but protesting to join Russia and NOT Moving away of it. and this is normal .people always likes to be in the side of winners and not losers.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:57 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    ......Bullshit......

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-orders-payment-of-115-to-wwii-veterans/516630.html

    .....More bullshit....


    You just posted Moscow Times as a source... lol1 Laughing Razz

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:59 am

    Just put Vann on the ignore list. The guy hasn't contributed anything other than a whole page worth of bullshit for nearly everything. Both him and RMF have terrible reading comprehension issues as well since a heavy rocket wasn't cancelled. As I and yourself have pointed out multiple times via link.

    So I gave up on the two guys really.

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