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    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

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    Rmf
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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:43 pm

    from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes thus will be cheapest.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:27 pm

    Rmf wrote:from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes  thus will be cheapest.

    You forgot little fact that Russia has almost no need for spacecraft at equatorial orbits.

    One of the big reasons why Russia wants to build their next space station solo is because the want to put it in orbit much further north. ISS barely orbits over Russia at all, thanks again Yeltsin...

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes  thus will be cheapest.

    You forgot little fact that Russia has almost no need for spacecraft at equatorial orbits.

    One of the big reasons why Russia wants to build their next space station solo is because the want to put it in orbit much further north. ISS barely orbits over Russia at all, thanks again Yeltsin...

    Yeah, that last fact is just part of the icing on the cake of Yeltsin's treachery. There is no possible justification for this sort of concession.
    Most of the participating countries are in high northern latitudes and there is no possible objection from them for a higher inclination angle.
    It's not like the ISS was going to spend all of its time in the auroral zone.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes  thus will be cheapest.

    You forgot little fact that Russia has almost no need for spacecraft at equatorial orbits.

    One of the big reasons why Russia wants to build their next space station solo is because the want to put it in orbit much further north. ISS barely orbits over Russia at all, thanks again Yeltsin...

    Laughing Razz geek lol1 lol1 lol!

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:37 pm

    kvs wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes  thus will be cheapest.

    You forgot little fact that Russia has almost no need for spacecraft at equatorial orbits.

    One of the big reasons why Russia wants to build their next space station solo is because the want to put it in orbit much further north. ISS barely orbits over Russia at all, thanks again Yeltsin...

    Yeah, that last fact is just part of the icing on the cake of Yeltsin's treachery.   There is no possible justification for this sort of concession.
    Most of the participating countries are in high northern latitudes and there is no possible objection from them for a higher inclination angle.
    It's not like the ISS was going to spend all of its time in the auroral zone.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogtKe7N05F0 tongue

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:27 am

    from a new platform? guess its very hard to make or buy used mid sized oil platform .... Razz
    equatorial launch will always have more payload and no need for complicated and risky maneuvering. Rolling Eyes thus will be cheapest.

    The 300+ million owed to Boeing is docking and maintainence fees on the ship and launch platform... that is close to the price of a dozen launches from Russian soil.

    If you want sea launch to continue you either need to pay up and then pay Boeing off to get them out of the company and then find somewhere else to base the ship and launch platform... perhaps Cuba or India... the problem is that they were talking about selling the launch platform and support ship to recover costs to pay Boeing.

    Even a new or barely used oil platform would need serious modifications and upgrades to become a launch platform...

    It all costs money to save a little fuel...

    Personally I think it would make more sense to modify an SSBN to launch small payloads from the equator... if you remove all but two launch tubes from a Delta IV or a Typhoon then you would have plenty of space for the instruments and equipment and people for a launch. Could be based in a Russian port or any port friendly to Russia... it could move much faster than any launch platform to and from position...


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:09 pm

    so ,you want to store liquid oxygen on a nuclear submarine, or toxic storable propellant? affraid

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:01 am

    so ,you want to store liquid oxygen on a nuclear submarine, or toxic storable propellant?

    Come on RMF... you really are good at playing dumb sometimes....

    An Ex SSBN containing something dangerous... yes... I think even a Delta IV is used to carrying SLBMs with toxic chemicals and that the oxygen regeneration systems of SSBNs that can use electrical current to get O2 from sea water could certainly extract large amounts of O2 and also at the same time Hydrogen gas which could be cooled and liquified on the trip south to the launch location... by the time they get to the equator they can be ready to launch... pump the O2 and LOX into the missiles and do a surface launch.

    Loading will be much easier and safer with missiles with their propellent tanks empty.


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    so ,you want to store liquid oxygen on a nuclear submarine, or toxic storable propellant?

    Come on RMF... you really are good at playing dumb sometimes....

    An Ex SSBN containing something dangerous... yes... I think even a Delta IV is used to carrying SLBMs with toxic chemicals and that the oxygen regeneration systems of SSBNs that can use electrical current to get O2 from sea water could certainly extract large amounts of O2 and also at the same time Hydrogen gas which could be cooled and liquified on the trip south to the launch location... by the time they get to the equator they can be ready to launch... pump the O2 and LOX into the missiles and do a surface launch.

    Loading will be much easier and safer with missiles with their propellent tanks empty.

    Given that Delta IVs carry R-29 family missiles using UDMH & N204 storable (hypergolic) propellents, I think its fair to say that using an SSBN as a light satellite launcher doesn't pose any appreciable (additional) risks. In fact, its been done before with the Volna launcher, based on modified R-29R and trialed from Delta IIIs between 1995-2005. Volna was generally unsuccessful with a number of failed launches, but the concept was shown to be sound.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:49 pm

    russia can build new oil platforms and start a new company from 0 and start launching at equator. no need to pay americans 0 .
    although cuba spaceport sounds interesting.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:45 am

    The cost of an equatorial launch base whether in Cuba or India or from a Russian port via a Delta IV or ex Akula (NATO TYPHOON) is just spending an enormous amount of money on only a minor gain in capability... it would be cheaper to just develop a bigger more powerful rocket.

    In the longer term they will find a larger heavier missile useful... right now not so much.

    In the future they can build a bigger rocket when they need it.

    Converting their current rockets to pulse detonation rockets should offer a significant increase in thrust without much extra weight or cost...


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:10 am

    Russia postpones Angara-A5V launches until 2025 due to space program cuts

    The Angara-A5V carrier rocket with an oxygen-hydrogen stage was supposed to be used for launching a manned spacecraft to the trajectory of flight to the Moon

    MOSCOW, January 22 /TASS/. The Russian Space Corporation Roscosmos has postponed the launches of the Angara-A5V heavy carrier rocket with an oxygen-hydrogen stage until the middle of the next decade, suggests the draft of the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025.
    The Federal Space Program drafted by Roscosmos will be submitted to the Russian government.
    The Angara-A5V was supposed to be used for launching a manned spacecraft to the trajectory of flight to the Moon.
    Under the program, the ground experiments involving the Angara-A5V carrier rocket are to be completed in 2025. No test flights are being planned for an earlier date.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/851546


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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:02 pm

    dark days for russian space program , seems everything is going down.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:11 pm

    Rmf wrote:dark days for russian space program , seems everything is going down.

    What is going down?

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:dark days for russian space program , seems everything is going down.

    What is going down?
    He is overreacting.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:25 pm

    lets see -0 angara launches in 2015, maybe 1 for 2016...
    no ptk capsule test, no plan for heavy booster, even medium-heavy angara 35+tonn to leo in 10 years Shocked  (probably will slip)...
    proton cost 15.000+ per kg launch , falcon 9 12.000 per launch. and falcon 9 heavy with 50tonns to leo coming in 2016.
    proton few commercial launches this year and in future even less- 8 total this year and 3 is for military. What a Face
    russian space budget 1-1,5 bill ,usa 17 bill.
    Usa already tested orion capsule previous year, and is working on heavy booster to be fielded soon by 2018.
    roscosmos is cut everywhere and bleeding to death.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:34 pm

    Mhm. And what is Roscosmos now? Oh right, a company.  You do know what that means, right?  And claim what you want, it was already posted before that Russias launches are cheaper.  Its february, second month in the year.  Roscosmos can obtain contracts and work outside of government.

    You are fully aware of Zenit still to be used with new engines and its a heavy launcher, yet you ignore it now for some reason (even though you posted about it as well) and big gazza already did a whopper on your claims in the previous thread.

    BTW, what was roscomos budget in 1998 - 2004? Yeah, thats right. And they are still around.

    Might I suggest you stop trolling? It is annoying and against forum rules.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:14 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Mhm. And what is Roscosmos now? Oh right, a company.  You do know what that means, right?  And claim what you want, it was already posted before that Russias launches are cheaper.  Its february, second month in the year.  Roscosmos can obtain contracts and work outside of government.

    You are fully aware of Zenit still to be used with new engines and its a heavy launcher, yet you ignore it now for some reason (even though you posted about it as well) and big gazza already did a whopper on your claims in the previous thread.

    BTW, what was roscomos budget in 1998 - 2004? Yeah, thats right. And they are still around.

    Might I suggest you stop trolling? It is annoying and against forum rules.
    call it whatever you want ,it means nothing, like your rumblings here... that was 1998 and it wont repeat again. proton and soyuz were getting inneficient but workers and materials were dirt cheap and made launches cheap. thats why angara common core was made to replace them and mass produce it. like delta heavy or atlas 5 heavy were. it was invisioned in ussr times early 90s, with the cost savings being in consolidating the industrial base by being able to mothball the proton/soyuz-2 production line, in a hope that having mass production of a common core for the variants of angara will exploit economies of scale and drive costs down.
    It's simply the EELV model. Angara is the rocket Russia needed in 2000s It's the Russian Atlas V. Except the Atlas V is being retired due to the SpaceX Falcon 9 being even cheaper.
    where are russias launchers cheaper? times are changing proton is bigger then "ukranian"zenit you lamented here anyway. roscosmos isnt wining contracts anymore and its losing.
    proton is 100 mill now 75 mill and  , falcon 9 is 62 mill.
    angara wont be cheaper in many many years, it isnt even flying...lol


    Russia space agency set itself for this.
    The Russian Space Program from 2005 onwards, was every bit the villian of space exploration as USA ULA was. It was content as charging exorbitant prices and sitting on reliable funding, but not remotely doing any work in new vehicle development. It, like ULA, promoted a decade of stagnation and left a wide opening for SpaceX and other American commercial companies, times are changing launch market is geting privatized , congress funds sls 70+ tonns heavy booster regularly and it wont fail. russia has nothing in class 25+ toons. and it postponed 35 ton version to 2025 ooouch!!!
    big gaza what? ahahaa lol nope

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:26 pm

    Hmm, I see you failed economics as a whole and the purpose of making it a corporation (you just mentioned about privatization. Well, state run means they act as a corporation but majority stake is still heald by government)  Please, do some research.  Both GarryB and Gazaa pointed out your fallacies before hand and you can look it up on the other threads.

    Big mistake you made as well is comparing budgets in USD.  This was explained earlier.  And did you know thay the cost of proton launches is cheaper now thanks to devaluation in USD terms?

    Being the first doesnt do anyone justice.  This was evident during soviet times.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:32 pm

    the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:47 pm

    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz

    35 ton booster is delayed because super heavy rocket IS NOT cancelled after all (you should know this because you participated in discussion on this topic with us recently).

    There have been no significant changes in PTK timetable.

    Roscosmos can book ZERO foreign launches and it will not change jack shit because it's primary purpose is to facilitate Russia's access to space. Everything else is gravy.

    Oh and Proton is GONE and Angara takes over. Deal with it already. Better yet, go suck some hydrazine under poster of Elon Musk, that should get you all hot and steamy...

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:02 pm

    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz
    And if you knew economics, you would know that prices drop for outsiders vs internal as they use Rubles.  Example is Su-35. Before Ruble drop it was $60~M per aircraft USD, after? $30M per aircraft.  Same amount of Rubles though (or more).  Real basic actually.  So if price for launch was $100M in 2014, it would be half that now.  Workers get paid in Rubles moron.

    And as papa said, they announced a heavy launcher in Jan this year.  Once again and go back and read.  Your posts mimic that of Ultron.  Same BS.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:05 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz

    35 ton booster is delayed because super heavy rocket IS NOT cancelled after all (you should know this because you participated in discussion on this topic with us recently).

    There have been no significant changes in PTK  timetable.

    Roscosmos can book ZERO foreign launches and it will not change jack shit because it's primary purpose is to facilitate Russia's access to space. Everything else is gravy.

    Oh and Proton is GONE and Angara takes over. Deal with it already. Better yet, go suck some hydrazine under poster of Elon Musk, that should get you all hot and steamy...
    so if 35t booster is postponed 10 years!!!! how long untill you get super heavy booster?? 20 years? it was just announced but there in NO funding for it , what you talking about - vapourware.time is critical , and angara-5v is more commercialy applicable then any super-heavy man mission oriented rocket.
    ptk has been delayed 10 times lololol.
    yes it can book 0 launches but that means low technological and workforce value and other countries take profit.
    over because you say so? yeah right... Laughing


    Last edited by Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:08 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz
    And if you knew economics, you would know that prices drop for outsiders vs internal as they use Rubles.  Example is Su-35. Before Ruble drop it was $60~M per aircraft USD, after? $30M per aircraft.  Same amount of Rubles though (or more).  Real basic actually.  So if price for launch was $100M in 2014, it would be half that now.  Workers get paid in Rubles moron.

    And as papa said, they announced a heavy launcher in Jan this year.  Once again and go back and read.  Your posts mimic that of Ultron.  Same BS.

    if you want to be competitive by devaluing its wrong move.
    and 100 mill -those prices are currrent. Want to know why they are current? Because Rockets take years to be built. 36-48 months typically. They require a long lead in time in materials, which means any rocket bought contract by the late 2014 when this quote was made is about half built and hasn't flown yet.

    In fact, the reason Proton and Soyuzs have been blowing up the last few years is because the work force that made both rockets for decades retired in the mid 2000s, and their less skilled successors rockets are now just flying.
    and even after devaluing falcon 9 IS CHEAPER! like i posted many times but you seem to skip that part.
    this is Russia's MO and the world sees it. it commits to modernizing Western-style "to keep up", but also for the regime to illustrate to its people it is compoenent , and it takes a few steps in that direction. And then because russia is tremendously corrupt and incompetently run, it ends up buying just enough of whatever "new thing" (in this case not even funny -0 ANGARA IN 2015) it has been doing to consume pretty extreme amounts of money, while delaying retirement or replacement of legacy platforms indefinitely.
    The result, rather than cutting costs by homogenizing platforms and cutting cost of ownership, is to actually increase cost of ownership by being forced to pay for a lot of the old, some of the old-modernised, and a few enough of the new to make it very expensive.! like we see even in launch facilities ,blowing money and time on first launch site- for soyuz, Laughing  ,very wasteful , instead on focusing only on angara launch pads if they want to go that way.

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    Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:32 am

    Rmf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Rmf wrote:the purpose is? more of the same. same launchers and suppliers. can you post some links to those fallacises??? angara not flying last year , 35+ tonn booster postponed to 2025 earliest  ,cancellation of super-heavy rocket, angara a7 , ptk capsule delayed, and its nothing to you.... lol ok
    thats what i was saying read post carefully again untill it sinks , falcon 9 is even now cheaper and it booked 15 launches for this year.and i dont think chrunichev workers will be working for 3 bottles of vodka per month post 2015...
    And comparing in Usd can be done for export contracts and competitions, mr. economics Razz
    And if you knew economics, you would know that prices drop for outsiders vs internal as they use Rubles.  Example is Su-35. Before Ruble drop it was $60~M per aircraft USD, after? $30M per aircraft.  Same amount of Rubles though (or more).  Real basic actually.  So if price for launch was $100M in 2014, it would be half that now.  Workers get paid in Rubles moron.

    And as papa said, they announced a heavy launcher in Jan this year.  Once again and go back and read.  Your posts mimic that of Ultron.  Same BS.

    if you want to be competitive by devaluing its wrong move.
    and 100 mill -those prices are currrent. Want to know why they are current? Because Rockets take years to be built. 36-48 months typically. They require a long lead in time in materials, which means any rocket bought contract by the late 2014 when this quote was made is about half built and hasn't flown yet.

    In fact, the reason Proton and Soyuzs have been blowing up the last few years is because the work force that made both rockets for decades retired in the mid 2000s, and their less skilled successors rockets are now just flying.
    and even after devaluing falcon 9 IS CHEAPER! like i posted many times but you seem to skip that part.
    this is Russia's MO and the world sees it. it commits to modernizing Western-style "to keep up", but also for the regime to illustrate to its people it is compoenent , and it takes a few steps in that direction. And then because russia is tremendously corrupt and incompetently run, it ends up buying just enough of whatever "new thing" (in this case not even funny -0 ANGARA IN 2015) it has been doing to consume pretty extreme amounts of money, while delaying retirement or replacement of legacy platforms indefinitely.
    The result, rather than cutting costs by homogenizing platforms and cutting cost of ownership, is to actually increase cost of ownership by being forced to pay for a lot of the old, some of the old-modernised, and a few enough of the new to make it very expensive.! like we see even in launch facilities ,blowing money and time on first launch site- for soyuz, Laughing  ,very wasteful , instead on focusing only on angara launch pads if they want to go that way.

    You didn't post anything of value, and why? You posted that the rocket is simply 100 million USD vs 75 million USD.  But did you know that, that is at the old rates? New rates would make it roughly 50 million USD vs the 75 million USD.  Thank you conversion, and well, you can blame the west for the speculation attacks.  Can you prove that it costs 100 million now to build those rockets? When those rockets were built, they were built under the budget via Rubles, not USD. Thus, in that case, the price valuation in Rubles would not have changed, as it was already paid for. Its valuation in USD on the end is different but that makes no difference in the end, and if you actually done any research at all, you will see in the Russia thread how KVS, Austin, I and others have had to explain it. Simply put, you are trolling one section of the forums because you "Think" you know what you are talking about, when you do not.

    And the process of building these rockets hasnt changed, and there has been clear indication of sabotage and KVS has pointed that out in the past (installing sensors upside down?).  And now, it is up to Roscosmos on how they pay their people and not the state since the company is now independent.  And those old costs doesn't matter anymore anyway, cause from then on, any new orders will entail new prices, and this is based upon the idea that after these rockets are used, they will have to build new ones at new rates.  Employees are paid in Rubles, thus their life style doesn't change unless they rely entirely on importing from outside, and that is entirely their own decision to do so rather than buying from their own manufacturers (buying a Mercedes rather than a Lada as example).  Your idea of Russia is sad and pathetic and a real example of your trolling, so have fun explaining to the mods on that.

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