Su-30 for Russian Air Force

The Growler is a specialized EW aircraft, the Su-30 is not.

From what we have seen the Su-34 is the likely candidate for EW aircraft in RuAF.

In my opinion RuAF ordered both Su-35 and Su-30SM in the same way, to have single seat Su-35 air defense fighter and two seat miltirole Su-30SM fighter. I think Mig-29M2 or Mig-35 will also be two seat multirole fighter.

To maximise ground attack capacity their fighters often operated in a swing capacity, so they would start operations as fighters to clear the skies of enemy aircraft, and once that was done to a reasonable level they would switch to dumb bomb loads and concentrate on enemy ground forces... this was with the Mig-21, and Mig-23 etc.

The Su-35 is not just a fighter, it is a fully multi role aircraft and fully capable of carrying a guided air to ground load or an dedicated air to air load depending on its mission.

The main reason for the Su-30SM purchases were stated at the time, which was there was no two seat Su-35 operational trainer, so the Su-30SMs would be used as operational trainers and also a range of other roles because both aircraft are fully multirole types.

For the Mig-35 and the Mig-29M2 there is no need for another aircraft for operational training... they will most likely (if they buy 48 fighters) then 8 will likely be 2 seaters and the remaining 40 will be single seat aircraft.

In the swing role a modern Mig 29M2/35 or Su 35 or Su-30SM is both far more capable than previous generations of Russian/Soviet fighters/interceptors, but are also far more capable in the swing role, being able to carry a range of guided air to ground weapons.

As George1 points out the original Su-30 was used exclusively by the PVO as an interceptor/command type aircraft where it could use its large radar and dedicated radar operator to manage air interceptions where ground radar coverage was sparse. Very simply the Su-30 would operate with its radar scanning for targets while a group of fighters with lessor radars... Su-27s or perhaps Mig-29s would operate with it with their radars turned off, though they could use their IRSTs silently to confirm target information transmitted from the Su-30s.

In a real conflict you would not use the Su-30SM for training, you would equip it with AAMs and also equip your Su-35s with AAMs and meet the enemy. You would likely send in Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s as well as Su-25s to hit ground targets on the front line, while the Su-34 would be hitting critical targets deep within enemy territory.

Once the enemy air power had been degraded either directly in combat with the Flankers and Fulcrums, and indirectly by Su-34 attacks on large airfields as well as cruise missile attacks of course, then the Su-35s and Su-30SMs would go to CAP and then SEAD and then strike missions as the fight moves into enemy territory.

I have read they were looking at a Tu-22M3 based EW aircraft, but they decided in the end to use the Il-76 as an EW aircraft because of the extra power it could generate. For SEAD and other tactical missions an EW model of the Su-24 would currently be the in service aircraft, though I have no doubt there will be an Su-34 model if there is not one already.

There were plenty of rumours about the Su-34 in Georgia in 2008 after the Tu-22M3R was shot down, but I have not seen anything official.

George1 wrote:Su-35 is also a multirole fighter. Su-30 is a 2-seater airborne command aircraft as well. I think Su-30 complements Su-35. Just as EA-18G complements FA-18E/F in US Navy

SU 30 is also a multi role aircraft . They are been purchased by the RuAF as a stop gap arrangement before the induction of the T 50 . Once the T 50 are inducted they will perform the air superiority role currently being carried out by the SU 30 & the SU 35 will carry out the air dominance role.

No.

The Su-30 is not a multirole aircraft, it is described as a long range interceptor fighter.

The Su-30M and later models added multirole capability with radar upgrades that allowed the engagement of ground targets with guided weapons.

I was referring to the SU 30 SM of the RuAF . The earlier variant SU 30 is no longer a part of the RuAF.

The SU 30 SM is basically the Russian variant of the famous SU 30 MKI and are therefore multi role just like it's Indian counterpart . With the exception of the Israeli avionics on board the Indian SU 30 MKI ( SU 30 SM sports Russian avionics) there are no differences between the two. Check these links below from RIA NOVOSTI


http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120322/172317814.html

http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20120301/171609225.html

The Su-35 is not just a fighter, it is a fully multi role aircraft and fully capable of carrying a guided air to ground load or an dedicated air to air load depending on its mission.

Of course Su-35 is fully multi role aircraft, but considering RuAF is buying Su-34 and larger number of Su-30SM, which will also create their independent squadrons, you could be sure single seat Su-35 as well as PAK FA will be used in RuAF as dedicated air defense fighters, while ground attacks and multi role missions will be reserved for Su-34 and Su-30SM, who also have very long range.

As George1 points out the original Su-30 was used exclusively by the PVO as an interceptor/command type aircraft where it could use its large radar and dedicated radar operator to manage air interceptions where ground radar coverage was sparse. Very simply the Su-30 would operate with its radar scanning for targets while a group of fighters with lessor radars... Su-27s or perhaps Mig-29s would operate with it with their radars turned off, though they could use their IRSTs silently to confirm target information transmitted from the Su-30s.

RuAF/IADS have only 6 of those Su-30. Also after modernization Mig-31BM is better suited plane for this type of job. Even basic Mig-31 operate in groups, where 1 is command and they share radar picture and data through datalink. Su-35 and PAK FA will also work in the same way in Russian IADS.

Su-30SM will be as two seat multi role aircraft be better suited for RuAF operations outside Russian air space, where it could with its big Bars or Irbis radar also work as command plane for smaller Migs, as well as interceptor, SEAD platform or ground attack plane.

To maximise ground attack capacity their fighters often operated in a swing capacity, so they would start operations as fighters to clear the skies of enemy aircraft, and once that was done to a reasonable level they would switch to dumb bomb loads and concentrate on enemy ground forces... this was with the Mig-21, and Mig-23 etc.

Depend on the war itself. If there is no contact between ground forces, than your air force will first clear the sky of enemy planes and than attack ground targets. But if it start with ground forces contact, than your AF have to support your ground forces immediately although the sky is full of enemy planes. In that case it is fine to have dedicated AD fighters, who protect ground attacking planes.

Of course, if Russia is attacked, than all planes able to carry and use AAMs will be at first used for AD duties.

I was referring to the SU 30 SM of the RuAF . The earlier variant SU 30 is no longer a part of the RuAF.

They haven't crashed, why do you think they are withdrawn?

The PVO had about a dozen or so, I don't think their requirements have changed since.

The SU 30 SM is basically the Russian variant of the famous SU 30 MKI and are therefore multi role just like it's Indian counterpart . With the exception of the Israeli avionics on board the Indian SU 30 MKI ( SU 30 SM sports Russian avionics) there are no differences between the two. Check these links below from RIA NOVOSTI

I am familiar with the Su-30SM, I was talking about the Su-30.

Of course Su-35 is fully multi role aircraft, but considering RuAF is buying Su-34 and larger number of Su-30SM, which will also create their independent squadrons, you could be sure single seat Su-35 as well as PAK FA will be used in RuAF as dedicated air defense fighters, while ground attacks and multi role missions will be reserved for Su-34 and Su-30SM, who also have very long range.

Do you think the Russian AF will spend a small fortune on new multirole aircraft and new guided weapons and then simply continue with single role training? If single seat F-16s can engage ground targets then why can't Su-35s?

As the force shrinks in numbers then units will be reduced and combined. Units that operated Su-17s and Mig-27s are already dispanded, but front line aviation needs fighters and aircraft with attack capability.

With modern systems and modern weapons the Su-35 should be able to engage air and ground targets at the same time.

Complex missions like fly to an area and engage any enemy ground forces and then provide top cover for the aircraft coming after you become possible.

RuAF/IADS have only 6 of those Su-30. Also after modernization Mig-31BM is better suited plane for this type of job. Even basic Mig-31 operate in groups, where 1 is command and they share radar picture and data through datalink. Su-35 and PAK FA will also work in the same way in Russian IADS.

Su-30 was cheaper than a Mig-31 and like a mini AWACS offers the ability to provide AWACS functions to an air group away from ground radar control. Operating with a group of Su-27s it would fit in much better than the Mig-31 because it is basically an Su-27UB with a better radar fitted.

Su-30SM will be as two seat multi role aircraft be better suited for RuAF operations outside Russian air space, where it could with its big Bars or Irbis radar also work as command plane for smaller Migs, as well as interceptor, SEAD platform or ground attack plane.

Su-30SM is a different aircraft optimised for a range of different roles. The Su-30 compliments the Su-27 as a big brother that makes the Su-27s more effective and more useful in the single role of air to air combat because neither have nor need guided air to ground capability.

The Su-30SM on the other hand, as you both point out is a fully multirole aircraft as a junior to the multirole Su-35.

Very simply the Su-30 is for the PVO which doesn't care about ground attack, it is air defence and so its only use is mini awacs.
The Su-30SM on the other hand is not for the PVO, its primary use is a cheaper two seat Su-35 that can be used as an operational trainer, and also as a multirole aircraft especially where a two seat configuration is useful.

Of course proper 5th gen avionics should reduce the pilots workload to the point where a two seat Su-35 or PAK FA should not be needed... which means the only real reason for buying the Su-30SM is operational trainer.

Of course, if Russia is attacked, than all planes able to carry and use AAMs will be at first used for AD duties.

The early model Mig-29s and Su-27s would carry air to air weapons because they are not well equipped to hit ground targets. The newer and upgraded models however are fully multirole so a flight could be launched against an enemy ground breakthrough threat with air to ground weapons but also air to air weapons so both air and ground targets can be engaged as they are found. There will be some aircraft in the flight group with only AAMs, and there might be aircraft within the group with only defensive AAMs, but the whole idea of multirole is to be adaptable and do both missions at once.

Otherwise there is no point in multirole.

GarryB wrote:They haven't crashed, why do you think they are withdrawn?

The PVO had about a dozen or so, I don't think their requirements have changed since.

Neither crashed nor withdrawn , simply upgraded.The original SU 30 was a testbed fighter . They have now all been upgraded to Su 30 SM or SU 30 M2

Sujoy wrote:

GarryB wrote:They haven't crashed, why do you think they are withdrawn?

The PVO had about a dozen or so, I don't think their requirements have changed since.

Neither crashed nor withdrawn , simply upgraded.The original SU 30 was a testbed fighter . They have now all been upgraded to Su 30 SM or SU 30 M2

The original Su-30s (of which there are barely a handful) are in the same state that they were delivered, so no upgrades I am afraid. SM program was only carried out on Su-27 and Su-27UB.
Su-30M2 is the domestic Su-30MK basically, so the new Su-30SMs will be quite a bit more sophisticated.

TR1 wrote:The original Su-30s (of which there are barely a handful) are in the same state that they were delivered, so no upgrades I am afraid. SM program was only carried out on Su-27 and Su-27UB.
Su-30M2 is the domestic Su-30MK basically, so the new Su-30SMs will be quite a bit more sophisticated.

So why are they keeping these aircrafts ? Interceptor roles are being carried out by MIG 31 and MIG 29 is the air superiority aircraft . As I said in my previous post that SU 30 was just a testbed aircraft . It was an evolution of the SU 27 & sometime during the mid nineties it was christened Su 30. Also Irkut supplies to India ( among others) & Knappo supplies to China ( among others ) . Who did the RuAF purchase the SU 30 from ? For what ? Simply to serve as a long range interceptor ? That would be strange because when India wanted to purchase only the SU 30 , Irkut offered the Su 30 MKI a truly multi role aircraft . This makes sense because you get a tremendous bang for your buck .

Do you think the Russian AF will spend a small fortune on new multirole aircraft and new guided weapons and then simply continue with single role training? If single seat F-16s can engage ground targets then why can't Su-35s?

Of course Su-35 could engage all targets and is multi role, but that doesn't mean it will not be used for one main job. In Soviet times they have Air Force and Air Defense aviation with their own fighters. In Russia they join those two aviations together, but creating VKO (air and space defense), modernization of Mig-31 and single seat Su-35 and PAK FA could show a tendency, that Russia still want to have a core of independent air defense fighter units integrated in VKO. Their role will be primarily air defense and of course could also do ground attacks, when needed.

Su-30SM squadrons could be part of regular RuAF, where they will work as true multi role fighter.

but the whole idea of multirole is to be adaptable and do both missions at once.

Multi role means, that plane could do various roles and missions, but not necessary at once. When plane is in dogfight, pilot will be concentrated on air combat and not on ground targets, however modern and multirole fighter is.

Sujoy wrote:

TR1 wrote:The original Su-30s (of which there are barely a handful) are in the same state that they were delivered, so no upgrades I am afraid. SM program was only carried out on Su-27 and Su-27UB.
Su-30M2 is the domestic Su-30MK basically, so the new Su-30SMs will be quite a bit more sophisticated.

So why are they keeping these aircrafts ? Interceptor roles are being carried out by MIG 31 and MIG 29 is the air superiority aircraft . As I said in my previous post that SU 30 was just a testbed aircraft . It was an evolution of the SU 27 & sometime during the mid nineties it was christened Su 30. Also Irkut supplies to India ( among others) & Knappo supplies to China ( among others ) . Who did the RuAF purchase the SU 30 from ? For what ? Simply to serve as a long range interceptor ? That would be strange because when India wanted to purchase only the SU 30 , Irkut offered the Su 30 MKI a truly multi role aircraft . This makes sense because you get a tremendous bang for your buck .

They received them back in the early 90s, keep in mind this was before the MKI was available.
At least they are airworthy, the small batch of Su-35s that the RuAF got in the 90s is grounded.

Neither crashed nor withdrawn , simply upgraded.The original SU 30 was a testbed fighter . They have now all been upgraded to Su 30 SM or SU 30 M2

That wouldn't make sense, the Su-30 were used by the PVO, the PVO would have no need for multirole aircraft... Sptifires and Hurricanes fighting the Battle of Britain were not fitted out for long range fuel tanks and 50kg bombs... they were interceptors, not strike aircraft.

The original Su-30s (of which there are barely a handful) are in the same state that they were delivered, so no upgrades I am afraid. SM program was only carried out on Su-27 and Su-27UB.

That makes sense... apart from an upgrade to make them compatible with newer AAMs like R-77 they were already well suited to their role.

So why are they keeping these aircrafts ? Interceptor roles are being carried out by MIG 31 and MIG 29 is the air superiority aircraft

The PVO has long operated a mix of aircraft including Mig-29s and Su-27s and Mig-31s. The Su-30 was intended to work with Mig-29s and especially Su-27s to give them the same independence as the Mig-31 has. The advantage of the Su-30 is that it is really just an Su-27UB with a better radar so you can base it with an Su-27 unit with no logistics problems at all.

The PVO are not interested in ground targets so Mig-29SMT and Su-27SM and Su-30SM upgrades don't interest them much, it is FA or Frontal Aviation that could use multirole aircraft the most and why upgrade Su-30s they don't have when they have plenty of Su-27UBs to convert into multirole Su-30SMs.

As I said in my previous post that SU 30 was just a testbed aircraft .

No. It entered small scale service, they had about a dozen.

It was an evolution of the SU 27 & sometime during the mid nineties it was christened Su 30.

Not an evolution. It was a two seat Su-27... it was an Su-27UB with a better radar that acted like a cheap Mig-31 which at the time were the only interceptors that had a good enough radar to operate independently of ground control... the Mig-31 had the radar operator in the back as did the Su-30.

Who did the RuAF purchase the SU 30 from ? For what ? Simply to serve as a long range interceptor ?

The PVO or air defence arm of the Russian Air Force buys their own planes... The Tu-128 fiddler, the Su-9, Su-11, and Su-15 are PVO only aircraft that were dedicated interceptors. The Su-30 was a PVO plane. The later Su-30M was a multirole aircraft the rest of the Russian AF might be interested in and is buying now, but the Su-30 was and is an interception management aircraft.

Before the Su-30 an interception by PVO Su-27s or Mig-29s would involve a GCI officer sitting in a van looking at radar screens showing data from ground based radar. With the Mig-31 the guy in the van was moved to the rear seat of the aircraft with a better view of the ground and low flying threats, and of course the Su-30 is the same thing... the guy from the van is in the back of the Su-30 and he directs the Su-27 or Mig-29 flight group to the targets and controls the fight.

As I said before AWACS does not just mean airborne radar... that is AEW or airborne early warning. AWACS means airborne early warning and control... in other words the radar guy controls the engagements... the difference is that instead of the control guy sitting in a Sentry, he is in the back of an Su-30...

That would be strange because when India wanted to purchase only the SU 30 , Irkut offered the Su 30 MKI a truly multi role aircraft . This makes sense because you get a tremendous bang for your buck .

India probably wanted a heavy interceptor like an F-15C... which the Su-30 could pretty much emulate, and would have been cheaper and simpler. Obviously with an Su-30 in service instead of Su-30MKI then India would need to rely more on their Mirage 2000s in the strike role, and likely an SMT upgrade of the Mig-29s would have been more urgent.

With the Su-30MKI they get a much more capable and sophisticated multirole aircraft.

In Soviet times they have Air Force and Air Defense aviation with their own fighters.

In Soviet times there was the PVO Strany which was a dedicated air defence force that was a branch of the Air Force.

Now they have the new Aerospace Defence Force, which perform the air defence and space defence functions, yet they don't have their own interceptor aircraft.

It appears that the interceptors remain with the Air Force but are under the control of the VKKO, so they would operate from Air Force airfields, but their direction and control would be from the Aerospace Defence forces.

Their role will be primarily air defense and of course could also do ground attacks, when needed.

I disagree, and agree at the same time... first you said that aircraft, while being multi role can be used operationally for single roles... which I agree with... just because a PAK FA can carry air to ground weapons doesn't mean it will always fly with air to ground weapons just in case they are needed. It will be operating on specific missions, so when it is on a SEAD mission then long range ARMs will fill the main weapon bays for many of the aircraft in the flight and the remainder will carry AAM to help protect the aircraft going after enemy SAMs and Radars. The primary mission is to defeat SAM sites and most aircraft involved in the mission will have weapons for that purpose, but some aircraft in the flight will focus on protecting the other aircraft by eliminating enemy air threats.

The thing is however the VKO are not interested in enemy SAM systems or enemy tank units, the VKO will be looking exclusively for air threats and will scramble the aircraft under its control to intercept aircraft or cruise missiles or whatever. The Russian AF will allocate aircraft to the control of the VKO, so Mig-31s will be sitting fuelled and armed ready to take off at the first sign of a threat 24/7... even if they are upgraded BM models they wont be carrying ARMs or laser guided bombs, they will have AAMs. Equally in each of the 4 military districts there will be aircraft under the control of the VKO that might be Mig-29s or Su-27s or Su-35s for that matter and when they are operating under the control of the VKO they will be focussed on aerial targets. They will never be called off from an interception to engage an enemy tank unit that is breaking through somewhere... the Russian AF will have a range of aircraft and in fact the Army might even respond with Iskander type solutions to such a threat as it is rapid and they control it and there is no need for SEAD preparation when you use a missile.

Su-30SM squadrons could be part of regular RuAF, where they will work as true multi role fighter.

Yes, exactly. Su-30s would be useful to the VKO, but their focus on one role makes them less interesting to the rest of the Air Force. Their single focus of role will likely make them much cheaper for the VKO yet they do the job the VKO needs to get done.

Multi role means, that plane could do various roles and missions, but not necessary at once. When plane is in dogfight, pilot will be concentrated on air combat and not on ground targets, however modern and multirole fighter is.

Quite true, but an Su-35 on an intercept mission in enemy territory suddenly gets painted by an enemy SAM can launch ARMs if it is carrying some and then launch long range AAMs at the target it was supposed to be on the mission to find (ie troop transport, or AWACS etc etc).

It is very unlikely that an interception mission turns into a mud moving exercise, however it is perfectly normal for Soviet fighters to deliver dumb bombs and then fly fighter cover as the rest of the flight deliver air to ground ordinance. In the case of a Mig-21 the effectiveness of the dumb bombs would not be that great and assuming 2 x 250kg bombs and one external fuel tank that leaves two AAMs and cannon for top cover.

With an Su-35 a couple of laser guided 1,500kg bombs with plenty of wing stores for AAMs and jammer pods and other ordinance means multi role becomes much more viable.

At least they are airworthy, the small batch of Su-35s that the RuAF got in the 90s is grounded.

Indeed the PVO was like the Strategic Rocket Forces... even when there was no money they still managed to get funding to keep going.

Good news.

Same images, different link:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-irkut-launches-su-30sm-test-campaign-376814/

Also, the Su-30Ks were returned in 2003? No they weren't. 14 were stored on a ramp at Pune in May 2011, with the remaining 4 stored at Bareilly.

This is nice to read that there are two Su-30SM flying. What about Su-30M2 from KNAAPO? Will RuAF buy more of them or just those 4 with Su-27SM3? There were rumors that Su-30M2 will serve as training two seater for Su-27SM/Su-35.

George1 wrote:Irkut Delivers First Su-30SM Fighters to Russian Air Force



MOSCOW, November 22 (RIA Novosti) - Aircraft maker Irkut delivered the first two Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter aircraft to the Russian Air Force on Thursday, the company said.

Flight testing of the multirole fighter jet began around two months ago, following the first flight of the Su-30SM on September 21, Irkut said.

"It is significant that the aircraft is in series production, and will enter air force service not in ones and twos but in squadrons," said Maj. Gen. Alexander Karchevsky, commander of the air force's Gagarin and Zhukovsky training academy, who was present at the handover.

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121122/177669371.html

The Su-30SM is the latest development of the twin-seat Su-30 jet fighter family, itself a derivative of the long-serving single-seat Sukhoi Su-27, one of the air force's most important warplanes.

The new aircraft has an improved radar, communications and identification-friend-or-foe system, new ejection seat and new weapons. It also has thrust-vectoring engine nozzles and canard foreplanes, providing supermaneuverability at low airspeeds.

The contract between the Defense Ministry and Irkut for 30 of the new jets by 2015 was signed in March.

Gray color quite suit on Su-30. Looks like Malaisian one. It seems air force want to have Su-30SM squadrons, what means it will not be only training two seater for Su-35 and PAK FA. Maybe they will partially replace old Su-24, because they will not build as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.

Alright, found some more pictures of thew newly delivered SU-30SM`s



Picture of it flying semingly equiped with two R-73 short range air to air missiles on its outer-wing pylons.



Seems everyone wants to check the cockpit xP


It`s here it gets intresting notice the HUD-display? looks awfully like Su-35S material and seems it has Super Su-30MKI atributes as well.




I must say i`m expecting signature reduction in the form of RAM-coating as well at certain spots, sorry for the large size of this but i diden`t want to ruin the quality of this and smaller size means we cant study it all :>

It seems air force want to have Su-30SM squadrons, what means it will not be only training two seater for Su-35 and PAK FA. Maybe they will partially replace old Su-24, because they will not build as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.

No, the Su-30s wont be used for Su-34 substitutes... just the same as the Su-35 wont be either. The Su-30s will likely be used to boost numbers and substitute for the more expensive Su-35s.

@Shadåw nice photos... thanks for posting.

Picture of it flying semingly equiped with two R-73 short range air to air missiles on its outer-wing pylons.

The white paint and black paint stripes indicate dummy rounds that are often carried as a test load or to simulate carrying weapons. Normal rounds are flight limited to a specific number of hours before they need to be checked and maintained to ensure the vibration hasn't loosened anything important, so dummy weapons are common in most air forces around the world.

I must say i`m expecting signature reduction in the form of RAM-coating as well at certain spots

RAM coatings are often just thin layers... like an extra coat of paint and would actually be rather difficult to detect visually.

Commonality with the Su-35 is likely as this aircraft will be operating with Su-35s.

They're said to be lead in trainers for Su-35 pilots but they're also fully combat capable