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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

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    George1
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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:58 pm

    Irkut Delivers First Su-30SM Fighters to Russian Air Force



    MOSCOW, November 22 (RIA Novosti) - Aircraft maker Irkut delivered the first two Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter aircraft to the Russian Air Force on Thursday, the company said.

    Flight testing of the multirole fighter jet began around two months ago, following the first flight of the Su-30SM on September 21, Irkut said.

    "It is significant that the aircraft is in series production, and will enter air force service not in ones and twos but in squadrons," said Maj. Gen. Alexander Karchevsky, commander of the air force's Gagarin and Zhukovsky training academy, who was present at the handover.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121122/177669371.html

    The Su-30SM is the latest development of the twin-seat Su-30 jet fighter family, itself a derivative of the long-serving single-seat Sukhoi Su-27, one of the air force's most important warplanes.

    The new aircraft has an improved radar, communications and identification-friend-or-foe system, new ejection seat and new weapons. It also has thrust-vectoring engine nozzles and canard foreplanes, providing supermaneuverability at low airspeeds.

    The contract between the Defense Ministry and Irkut for 30 of the new jets by 2015 was signed in March.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:20 pm

    George1 wrote:Irkut Delivers First Su-30SM Fighters to Russian Air Force



    MOSCOW, November 22 (RIA Novosti) - Aircraft maker Irkut delivered the first two Sukhoi Su-30SM fighter aircraft to the Russian Air Force on Thursday, the company said.

    Flight testing of the multirole fighter jet began around two months ago, following the first flight of the Su-30SM on September 21, Irkut said.

    "It is significant that the aircraft is in series production, and will enter air force service not in ones and twos but in squadrons," said Maj. Gen. Alexander Karchevsky, commander of the air force's Gagarin and Zhukovsky training academy, who was present at the handover.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121122/177669371.html

    The Su-30SM is the latest development of the twin-seat Su-30 jet fighter family, itself a derivative of the long-serving single-seat Sukhoi Su-27, one of the air force's most important warplanes.

    The new aircraft has an improved radar, communications and identification-friend-or-foe system, new ejection seat and new weapons. It also has thrust-vectoring engine nozzles and canard foreplanes, providing supermaneuverability at low airspeeds.

    The contract between the Defense Ministry and Irkut for 30 of the new jets by 2015 was signed in March.

    Gray color quite suit on Su-30. Looks like Malaisian one. It seems air force want to have Su-30SM squadrons, what means it will not be only training two seater for Su-35 and PAK FA. Maybe they will partially replace old Su-24, because they will not build as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Shadåw on Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:31 pm

    Alright, found some more pictures of thew newly delivered SU-30SM`s



    Picture of it flying semingly equiped with two R-73 short range air to air missiles on its outer-wing pylons.



    Seems everyone wants to check the cockpit xP


    It`s here it gets intresting notice the HUD-display? looks awfully like Su-35S material and seems it has Super Su-30MKI atributes as well.




    I must say i`m expecting signature reduction in the form of RAM-coating as well at certain spots, sorry for the large size of this but i diden`t want to ruin the quality of this and smaller size means we cant study it all :>

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:38 am

    It seems air force want to have Su-30SM squadrons, what means it will not be only training two seater for Su-35 and PAK FA. Maybe they will partially replace old Su-24, because they will not build as many Su-34 as they have Su-24.

    No, the Su-30s wont be used for Su-34 substitutes... just the same as the Su-35 wont be either. The Su-30s will likely be used to boost numbers and substitute for the more expensive Su-35s.

    @Shadåw nice photos... thanks for posting.

    Picture of it flying semingly equiped with two R-73 short range air to air missiles on its outer-wing pylons.

    The white paint and black paint stripes indicate dummy rounds that are often carried as a test load or to simulate carrying weapons. Normal rounds are flight limited to a specific number of hours before they need to be checked and maintained to ensure the vibration hasn't loosened anything important, so dummy weapons are common in most air forces around the world.

    I must say i`m expecting signature reduction in the form of RAM-coating as well at certain spots

    RAM coatings are often just thin layers... like an extra coat of paint and would actually be rather difficult to detect visually.

    Commonality with the Su-35 is likely as this aircraft will be operating with Su-35s.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:52 am

    They're said to be lead in trainers for Su-35 pilots but they're also fully combat capable

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:45 pm

    They're said to be lead in trainers for Su-35 pilots but they're also fully combat capable

    Yes... as far as I understand it the pilot would go to a flight training unit and start learning on gliders and turboprop aircraft. As they advanced through the program they would either go to helicopters or to jet trainers.

    The new Yak-130 trainers allow quite advanced training in a multi engined jet aircraft so they can learn about engine out situations as well as the basics like navigation and flight manouvers.

    Eventually they qualify and are sent from the training unit to an operational unit where they will learn how to fly operational aircraft by flying the two seater model initially to get used to the type... there were two seater versions of most types including fully operational trainers like the Su-27UB and now the Su-30SM, which had fully operational systems, plus a second seat. Other trainers include the Mig-29UB which has a simple ranging radar and cannot use BVR radar guided weapons or perform training involving radar intercepts etc except when ground controlled.

    Strangely of the new crop of fighters the Su-35 has no twin seat model, while the new Mig-29s/35s have a cockpit structure unified between a single and twin seat configuration. In other words the single seat and twin seat models have the same shape and structure... the twin seat model has two seats, while the single seat model has extra equipment and fuel where the twin seat has the second seat.

    The advantage of the Su-35 is that it can operate with one crew so for x number of flight crew you can have more aircraft in the air... the only problem is that it is a bit of a leap from a Yak-130 to an Su-35. The Su-30SM solution adds a step to that jump and makes it easier for the pilots, while at the same time adds a cheaper aircraft that is still very capable to the unit. The Su-30SM and Su-35 will compliment each other and it means the Russian AF will have more manned modern multirole fighters.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:04 am

    Having 30 trainers for 48 Su-35s is strange indeed.

    I bet we will see an independent Su-30SM unit.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 am

    I should add what I meant by Strangely in the above post is that previously the twin seat aircraft of an aircraft type was a trainer and was not usually much use for anything else. The lack of radar and other systems made them cheaper to buy and maintain and they could be used as the air units hack... if you needed to transfer somewhere you might take a twin seater for instance... it was also a good way for two pilots to get flight hours if needed.

    This changed with the Su-27UB which had a full power radar and was able to carry pretty much any piece of ordinance that the single seat Su-27 could carry. The difference was an extra set of eyes and hands.

    This made it more expensive to buy, but for missions where the pilot workload was high like ground attack/strike it was found to be very useful. Also for air to air interceptions outside of ground control it was found to be very useful and for a while the Russian Air Force... specifically the PVO Strany were testing a new variant of the Su-27UB called the Su-30 in the role of mini AWACS for a group of smaller fighters where the Flanker would use its powerful radar to find targets and pass target data to the smaller lighter and cheaper fighters that would operate much closer to the enemy but without turning their own radars on. For the enemy it will only detect the radar signal of the Su-30 and might not realise there are smaller lighter fighters operating much closer to it that have all the information they need to open fire without emitting any signal to reveal their presence.

    The result is that a few expensive fighters can make smaller lighter cheaper fighters more effective... note the even number (Su-30) means the aircraft is no longer a fighter, but an interceptor/AWACS type. Odd numbers like 29 and 31 and 27 denote a fighter. Even numbers are everything else... Il-76 is a transport. Exceptions would be the Su-25 which is CAS, the Tu-95 which is a strategic bomber, and the Mig-25 which is an interceptor/recon aircraft.

    In comparison the Mig-29UB has the normal radar set replaced with a tiny ranging unit and it is unable to carry SARH missiles in the short and long range versions.

    Of course the base model Mig-29 was only able to carry the short range R-27R and could not carry the R-27T or R-27ET or R-27ER, so with the ability to carry the R-27T and R-27ET the Mig-29UB actually had the potential for longer range engagements than the Mig-29 till the C model.

    Now it is reversed... the standard Migs have fully operational twin seat models while the Su-35 does not.

    The fully operational two seat models were considered useful, but the sophisticated 5th gen avionics in the Su-35 (and PAK FA) are supposed to make them easy to fly for a single crew.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:28 am

    Having 30 trainers for 48 Su-35s is strange indeed.

    They have already committed to 96 Super Flankers haven't they?

    I would also expect they will be used as lead in fighter trainers for the PAK FA pilots too because otherwise the Russian pilots will likely be going from Su-27s to Su-35/PAK FA, which will be quite a leap... of course they might go from the Su-27SM, but it is still quite a jump.

    The real difference however is that like the Su-27UB the Su-30SM are fully operational aircraft, not dumbed down trainers so they could have a larger percentage of twin seat aircraft in a unit than they would other wise have with say a Mig-29UB.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:52 am

    Order is only for 48 right now.
    The second batch is rumored for 2015 onward.

    But the current Su-30SM deliveries are through 2015 as well- so by early 2016, the Su-30SM number won;t be far off the Su-35 numbers.
    And they have mentioned further batches of the SM are likely.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  SOC on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:23 am

    I would also expect they will be used as lead in fighter trainers for the PAK FA pilots


    I had this thought, but I wouldn't be suprised if they followed the USAF model instead. We (and this admittedly works for us given the number of airframes we've got to mess with) take a pilot, put him/her into training. After basic flight school, you're going either into the fighter/bomber track, which means off to T-38s, or the heavy track, which means off to I forget what. Once you finish advanced flight training, your first assignment is to a training unit. For the F-22, for example, you go to Tyndall AFB. There your sole job is to learn how to fly and fight the Raptor. After that, it's off to an oeprational unit. If you change airframes, you merely go to that jet's training unit. My dad did this when he went from F-4s to A-10s; he went for a few months to the A-10 training unit at Davis-Monthan before ending up at RAF Alconbury.

    If you don't have the airframes to do that, the simplest solution is what the F-117s did. They had three squadrons, one of which was the training squadron. You got assigned there first to learn the jet, then off to one of the two operational squadrons.

    I haven't paid much attention to the ORBAT of the RusAF recently, but I think they do something similar to the first, except they consolidate training for multiple types at one location.

    And I think the MiG-29 was compatible with the R-27T and R-27P, they just weren't employed often.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:15 pm

    And I think the MiG-29 was compatible with the R-27T and R-27P, they just weren't employed often.

    No, the early Soviet and Warsaw Pact Mig-29s and the monkey model export mig-29s were not compatible with the T, P or R models.

    One of the features of the Mig-29S was that it added R-27ER and R-27T and R-27ET missiles to the types that could be carried. Previous models could only carry R-27R, and R-60M and R-73 when the latter became available.

    Less sure about the secretive P model, the R-27P might have been an option but the R-27EP would have stood out with its larger rocket motor...

    If the Su-30SM is being bought as a cheap numbers aircraft and trainer then it would be no surprise that they would spend money buying lots of airframes... that would be the point of the cheaper aircraft.

    You don't get something for nothing of course... they will be less capable than the Su-35s.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:14 am

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Another 30 Su-30SM ordered.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:17 am

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Russian MoD sign a contract with Irkut to buy second batch of 30 Su-30SM, so now they have 60 Su-30SM on order. So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:47 pm

    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.

    well i guess that from all new types, su-35, su-30, su-34 some will go in Liptsek main training base. Dont forget that for su-34 the order is 124, and zelin said number could reach 140.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:39 am

    TR1 wrote:http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/19/su30sm/

    Another 30 Su-30SM ordered.

    While we are awaiting new orders for MIG-35/M2 here we go out of nowhere 60 brand new Su-30SM.

    I guess this is not the last of the shock we will see in coming years Very Happy

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 am

    I suspect this may not be all as well - for VVS...not to speak of Navy, which is supposed to get some as well (though basing aircraft in Ukraine is becoming increasingly difficult).

    What will be very interesting is how many birds can Irkut deliver before 2016 is up.
    If all 60....MOD will go for more I think.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:58 am

    Of course one could also look deeper into this and say that the Su-30SM is a more expensive aircraft than an Su-27SM, which suggests the VVS is interested in capability rather than focussing on just price.

    This bodes well for the decision as to whether they go for Mig-29M2 or Mig-35 options... the latter both more capable, but also more expensive.

    To be honest I am totally biased, but think that the best replacement for a Mig-29 unit is a Mig-35 unit and that a mix of single and two seat Mig-35s will be much more useful than an all Flanker fleet.

    Besides all those MIG factories and contractors that are basically just eeking a living on the Mig-29K production orders would be more effciently used producing Mig-35s... which should lead to expertise that could eventually result in a light 5th gen fighter for Russia. There is lots of talk of 6th gen fighters being unmanned, but until they enter service I think Russia should be looking at manned cheaper lighter stealth fighters to get numbers.

    It is a myth that the range and carrying capacity of an Su-35 allows it to do the work of two Mig-35 because one Flanker can only ever be in one place at one time, while two Migs can operate as a loose pair that cover each other and share data etc etc.

    I would think the Su-30SM would be a much more suitable replacement for Su-24s in naval service than a modified Su-34.

    In fact the Su-30SM would be a replacement for the Su-24 and the Su-27 as a sort of F-18 that replaces the Intruders and Tomcats, except in this case there is no reason why with a big radar and RVV-BD missiles that the Su-30SM could not be very much like an F-14D as an interceptor.

    Introduction of the Su-30SM as a naval Su-24 replacement would relieve pressure on Su-34 production which would then just need to replace a portion of land based Su-24s.

    Lets face it the Su-34 is a far more capable bomber than the Su-24 and with Tu-22M3M and Tu-160M and Tu-95MSM there will be no shortage of deep strike capacity for the Russian military.


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  AJ-47 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.

    The SU-30SM looks to me as a perfect multirole fighter like the F-4 in the old days, and should have a place by itself.
    About the numbers, maybe it’s only the 2nd batch, and the 3rd batch might be for 36 fighters.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  Shadåw on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So it become clear, that Su-30Sm will not be only for training, but also for independent squadrons.

    Hard to say... if they want to use them as trainers then they will need quite a few in service to train existing pilots to prepare them for the service entry of the Su-35s.

    If they are to be used separately as replacements for Su-27s then that will be shown by how they are deployed.

    Very simply if each Su-27 unit gets 4-6 Su-30s then we can assume their purpose is to prepare pilots in those units for the introduction of Su-35s.

    60 aircraft is a very strange number to order for equipping units... 48 or 96 would be more appropriate, as shown by Su-35 orders.
    Hm...only logical thing would be be this.



    60 - 12 = 48 so 48 for the Russian Air Force and 12 for the Russian Black Sea fleet? <rubs head> but it says its specifically for the Russian Air Force, so yeah odd number indeed, time will show in that regard when the deliveries will begin.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:25 am

    Well perhaps they break the numbers down this way... 48 aircraft for one unit to replace the Su-27s, and the 12 remaining aircraft are split into three units for training the pilots for the Su-35s they are going to be receiving shortly...


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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:26 am

    GarryB wrote:Well perhaps they break the numbers down this way... 48 aircraft for one unit to replace the Su-27s, and the 12 remaining aircraft are split into three units for training the pilots for the Su-35s they are going to be receiving shortly...

    That is how I see it.

    However, the separate orders for 30 (as opposed to 24) is weird.

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:41 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/21/vvo/

    Eastern military district in 2012 receive 10 Su-30 and Su-25 SM. Any informations how many Su-30 they got and which version? Irkut build 2 Su-30SM, but I doubt they go to eastern military district. KNAAPO build more Su-30M2 for RuAF?

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    Re: Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:21 pm

    Journalists being dumb.
    4 Su-30M2 were built, no more.

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