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    Fate of Russia's old birds.

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    d_taddei2

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    what will Russia do with its L-39's

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:26 am

    Hi all, with the Russia now receving the Yak 130 and the number increasing fairly quickly, what will Russia do with its fleet of roughly 200 L-39's?????

    Depending on the state of them they could be sold or given to poorer nations, or some put into reserve and the rest scrapped. I suppose they could also be used for various tests like unmanned aircraft tests, and target tests.

    Whats people views on this? has anyone heard any news on this?
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    d_taddei2

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    Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:10 am

    Hi all, wonder if anyone can share any information on what Russia has done or will do with its older fixed wing and rotary aircraft.
    for example the likes of:

    SU-17
    SU-24 (280, 70% to be replaced by SU-34)
    SU-25 (195, 80 to be upgraded)
    SU-27 (being upgraded)
    MIG-21
    MIG-23 (500 in reserve)
    MIG-25
    MIG-29

    TU-22 (107, 30 being upgraded)
    TU-95
    TU-160 (16, 10 being upgraded)

    L-39 (200, being replaced by YAK-130)

    MI-2
    MI-24 (298, includes some MI-35M approx 28)



    I know some of these are either way too old to be useful and some are still in service but are old and aging aswell as some being upgraded like SU-24, SU-25, SU-27 but only half of the fleet or less. I thought that maybe it would be for Russia to sell some of these aircraft cheap to poorer nations especially the likes of the L-39 would be ideal air forces on a shoe string budget. But no doubt Russia will either scrap them or store them intil they become rusting heaps of metal, seems to me to be a waste. I think Russia must have the largest stock pile of weapons, vehicles and aircraft in the world it just seems to horde them.

    So any information on any fate of any of these or anything else you can think of would be.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:12 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, wonder if anyone can share any information on what Russia has done or will do with its older fixed wing and rotary aircraft.
    for example the likes of:

    SU-17
    SU-24 (280, 70% to be replaced by SU-34)
    SU-25 (195, 80 to be upgraded)
    SU-27 (being upgraded)
    MIG-21
    MIG-23 (500 in reserve)
    MIG-25
    MIG-29

    TU-22 (107, 30 being upgraded)
    TU-95
    TU-160 (16, 10 being upgraded)

    L-39 (200, being replaced by YAK-130)

    MI-2
    MI-24 (298, includes some MI-35M approx 28)



    I know some of these are either way too old to be useful and some are still in service but are old and aging aswell as some being upgraded like SU-24, SU-25, SU-27 but only half of the fleet or less. I thought that maybe it would be for Russia to sell some of these aircraft cheap to poorer nations especially the likes of the L-39 would be ideal air forces on a shoe string budget. But no doubt Russia will either scrap them or store them intil they become rusting heaps of metal, seems to me to be a waste. I think Russia must have the largest stock pile of weapons, vehicles and aircraft in the world it just seems to horde them.

    So any information on any fate of any of these or anything else you can think of would be.

    My understanding has always been that it is very hard to buy the old stuff from the Russians. The reason, in my opinion, is different from what is sometimes mentioned in certain circles which attribute it to economical "considerations".

    My view is that the nonexportable Russian systems almost always have nonexportable technologies that simply are too advanced and/or too secret for release to the rest of the world. That even applies to very very old systems. As an example, an export model Su-27 can be exported, but a retired nonexportable MiG-21S still can't.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:29 pm

    In the recent top gun like training competition at least 10 L-39s were used as targets.

    I also know that they have converted a few other types as flying drones including the MiG-23M.

    The interesting thing is that because they are not expected to last very long the restrictions on flight and speed performance can be loosened so they can fly faster and higher than the original specs allowed.

    Remember sales of older aircraft would have limited appeal if the parts and support is not available to keep them operational.

    An existing user of equipment might find it useful, but a new user would struggle I suspect to get up to speed and use even older equipment to its potential any time soon.


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    Nagumo

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    MiG-23 in Russian Air Force

    Post  Nagumo on Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:59 pm

    Hallo. I have any question. Is two-seater MiGs-23UB still in service in Russia? Fighter-bomber variants was retiered in 1997, pure fighter variants in 1999 and two-seaters ?
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    medo

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:04 pm

    As I know, they are all retired and placed in reserve.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:26 pm

    Only version of the MiG-23 still in service/use would likely be the M-23, which is a remotely operated drone conversion of the MiG-23 fighter for use in training air defence forces, navy and army forces.


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    Nagumo

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Nagumo on Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:34 pm

    M-23, these version of Mig-23 i don't Know. Any photo?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:29 am

    I can't find any pics, but it should look exactly like a MiG-23.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:45 am

    They basically use any model plane they have in storage, fit it with remote control equipment so it can be flown remotely.

    The specs I have for the M-23 say the near ground top speed can be raised from 1,350km/h for the manned version to 1,440km/h in the remote controlled model.

    High altitude speed goes from Mach 2.35 of the manned version to Mach 2.5 in the unmanned model.

    G load is increased from 8 for the standard manned model to 12 on the unmanned model.

    Externally they look like the plane they were based on.


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    Mike E

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:57 am

    GarryB wrote:They basically use any model plane they have in storage, fit it with remote control equipment so it can be flown remotely.

    The specs I have for the M-23 say the near ground top speed can be raised from 1,350km/h for the manned version to 1,440km/h in the remote controlled model.

    High altitude speed goes from Mach 2.35 of the manned version to Mach 2.5 in the unmanned model.

    G load is increased from 8 for the standard manned model to 12 on the unmanned model.

    Externally they look like the plane they were based on.
    So basically they are the MiG equivalent of the unmanned F-4's...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:19 pm

    Pretty much...

    Though looking at some of the photos from VOSTOK2014 of some of the ground targets there are plenty of shots of L-39s and MiG-25s being blown to bits... I wonder how many MiG-23s will be there now or next?


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    d_taddei2

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    MIG-25 is it still in service??????

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:10 am

    hi all, i read an article about the MIG-25 and that Russia has retired the aircraft, is this true? i cant find the article again and havent seen anything else on the net saying so.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:01 am

    The MiG-25 has long been replaced by the currently in service MiG-31, and its respective variants.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:26 pm

    The interceptor models are long gone, but there were a few recon models in reserve for a while after the interceptors were retired.


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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:13 am

    that's a real shame, they are superb aircraft, does anyone know if theres plans to replace MIG-31 as they are also getting old, I know some were being modernised but are set to be retired late 2020's which really isn't that long way away when you think how long it would take to design, test, ands produce a similar aircraft.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:57 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:that's a real shame, they are superb aircraft, does anyone know if theres plans to replace MIG-31 as they are also getting old, I know some were being modernised but are set to be retired late 2020's which really isn't that long way away when you think how long it would take to design, test, ands produce a similar aircraft.

    They plan to redesign the MiG-31 into some Mach 4+ interceptor, the MiG 4.3 or something.

    In the meantime they're modernizing the current models into the MiG-31BM variant, to serve I guess until the new variant is ready for production.
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:23 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:that's a real shame, they are superb aircraft, does anyone know if theres plans to replace MIG-31 as they are also getting old, I know some were being modernised but are set to be retired late 2020's which really isn't that long way away when you think how long it would take to design, test, ands produce a similar aircraft.

    They plan to redesign the MiG-31 into some Mach 4+ interceptor, the MiG 4.3 or something.

    In the meantime they're modernizing the current models into the MiG-31BM variant, to serve I guess until the new variant is ready for production.


    thanks for the info. Does anyone how many they are upgrading a year? I find it really hard to find any info on the numbers and progress of Russian upgrades on things such as the SU-24, Su-25, SU-27, MIG-31, TU-22m3, TU-95, and TU-160, (I have seen varying reports that say 1 or 2 TU-160 have been upgraded). If anyone has any info on the above please share.
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    GarryB

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    Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:34 pm

    It is very difficult to say... from what I have read the Su-25SM is an upgrade of the Su-25 and will be used till the future prospective CAS replacement aircraft is ready...

    I would expect most of the Su-24 upgrades have been made, and I thought the strategic aircraft had already had upgrades but information recently about another upgrade for the Blackjack makes me think otherwise.. unless the new upgrade is just new engines.

    Just off the top of my head there can only be 15 Tu-160 upgrades, they were going to upgrade something like 60 Tu-22M3s and 100 MiG-31s.

    The strategic aircraft are stopgaps till the PAK DA is ready in the early 2020s, while the MiG-31 upgrades will be replaced by a MiG-41 that will likely have scramjet engines and roughly double the flight speed of the MiG-31. Keep in mind that early claims about the PAK DA was that it would be hypersonic, but now it will be subsonic to reduce costs and presumably make it more cost effective potentially as a MPA and inflight refuelling aircraft, and perhaps AWACS and/or JSTARS.... and possibly a civilian airliner.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  eehnie on Tue May 09, 2017 12:39 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, with the Russia now receving the Yak 130 and the number increasing fairly quickly, what will Russia do with its fleet of roughly 200 L-39's?????

    Depending on the state of them they could be sold or given to poorer nations, or some put into reserve and the rest scrapped. I suppose they could also be used for various tests like unmanned aircraft tests, and target tests.

    Whats people views on this? has anyone heard any news on this?

    I think is likely that many of them go to Syria. It is a well known aircraft in the country that all pilots know to drive, and also continues being their trainer aircraft for new pilots. At same time, these aircrafts are being used for combat roles.
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    medo

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  medo on Tue May 09, 2017 9:52 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, with the Russia now receving the Yak 130 and the number increasing fairly quickly, what will Russia do with its fleet of roughly 200 L-39's?????

    Depending on the state of them they could be sold or given to poorer nations, or some put into reserve and the rest scrapped. I suppose they could also be used for various tests like unmanned aircraft tests, and target tests.

    Whats people views on this? has anyone heard any news on this?

    I think is likely that many of them go to Syria. It is a well known aircraft in the country that all pilots know to drive, and also continues being their trainer aircraft for new pilots. At same time, these aircrafts are being used for combat roles.

    In Russia many L-59 trainers are used by civil aero clubs and schools. So most probably majority of them will be demilitarized and given/sold to civil users and private acrobatic teams.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  eehnie on Wed May 10, 2017 7:27 am

    medo wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, with the Russia now receving the Yak 130 and the number increasing fairly quickly, what will Russia do with its fleet of roughly 200 L-39's?????

    Depending on the state of them they could be sold or given to poorer nations, or some put into reserve and the rest scrapped. I suppose they could also be used for various tests like unmanned aircraft tests, and target tests.

    Whats people views on this? has anyone heard any news on this?

    I think is likely that many of them go to Syria. It is a well known aircraft in the country that all pilots know to drive, and also continues being their trainer aircraft for new pilots. At same time, these aircrafts are being used for combat roles.

    In Russia many L-59 trainers are used by civil aero clubs and schools. So most probably majority of them will be demilitarized and given/sold to civil users and private acrobatic teams.

    Advantages for Syria and Russia of the help with L-39:

    - Nominally the L-39 is a trainer aircraft, not a combat aircraft. It makes the things easier in the diplomathic side.
    - This is the cheapest aircraft with some combat capability available to help. The economic balance of the help is in the side of the L-39 over every Russian combat aircraft.
    - The help with L-39 allows to Russia to help to keep the Syrian Air Force working, without weaken the Russian own air power.
    - It would allow to Syria to keep other more powerful aircrafts in order to rebuild its air forces in the future. In fact Syria has been doing it with the extensive use of their L-39 (for combat purposes) and MiG-21.
    - Unlike other cases, Syria knows very well the aircraft as the main trainer of the country since decades.
    - It would allow to Syria to relaunch their programs for formation of new pilots.
    - The use of the training aircrafts in combat missions, helps to reduce the necessary training of new pilots in Syria until to have them prepared for combat missions.
    - The L-39 has enough service ceiling to avoid every man-portable air defense, and heavy towed air defense artillery. If the US and/or their allies want to shut-down them out of the Syrian airfields, will need expensive missiles of heavy air-defense systems.
    - It is difficult for the US (not credible) to blame the L-39s of big massacres, and as consequence the L-39 gives low room to justify bigger intervention of the US.

    Disadvantages for Syria and Russia of the help with L-39:

    -
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    George1

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:06 am

    MiG-27s to Libya

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2656046.html

    That could be a use of Russia's old birds. As military assistance to Middle East's civil war parties friendly to Russia


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    GarryB

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:59 pm

    They also have MiG-29s and Su-27s in storage which would be easier to get into service and easier and cheaper to operate and maintain and offer rather better performance.

    Simple upgrades could make them cheap to operate and effective with inexpensive munitions.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  eehnie on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:They also have MiG-29s and Su-27s in storage which would be easier to get into service and easier and cheaper to operate and maintain and offer rather better performance.

    Simple upgrades could make them cheap to operate and effective with inexpensive munitions.

    Russia needs the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the reserve. No need to waste them before the right moment.

    Even needs the MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27 and Su-17/20/22 in the reserve.

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