Russian Civil Aviation: News

Firebird wrote:

Austin wrote:Russian "Air Force One" Il-96 Takeoff at Berlin Tegel Airport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN9nJiEvEWE

Its a shame that there seems to be a "gap" emerging in Russian long haul/wide body civillian jet production. I dont think they'll keep producing the Il-96, atleast not in numbers.

Yet both Ilyushin and Antonov(ok part Ukrainian, by numerous measures) have fantastic abilities in large civillian areas. MS-21 and the Superjet look like terrific 21st century airliners, but ofcourse are smaller.

I wonder what will happen in the larger passenger and cargo civillian( and related military) production area? In comparison to the work Airbus needed to do on the A-380, I think Russia could build an equivalent with absolute ease. And it would be a potent symbol of Russian expertise on a world level. After all, the Boeing 747 is still making money, many decades after introduction..

No way Russia could make an A380 equivalent with ease.

Modernizing military transports like AN-124 is one thing, making a huge competitive airliners is completely different.
Il-96 has barely sold, there is a reason it is being phased out.

They made the right approach with Superjet- start small and avoid direct competition with the big dogs.

I also hope they continue (without China) work on short range regional widebody for high capacity routes. That is a non-existent category of planes, so no established competitors.

We should have as many simultaneous projects as possible in every class, and with as many partners as possible.
Even if some of them end up competing with one another, its no biggie.

The main thing is that that way, our engineers and factories will gain more experience in a quicker amount of time; even if some of the ventures fail - the experience remains.
And with more partners; that just means splitting the risk and investment; allowing more such projects to be going on simultaneously, and learning a trick or two from foreign colleagues

flamming_python wrote:We should have as many simultaneous projects as possible in every class, and with as many partners as possible.
Even if some of them end up competing with one another, its no biggie.

The Economics of Scale wont allow them to build many simultaneous projects if they dont have customers to justify these , this is not the Soviet Union.

Only if the project has good market prospects and Russian aviation industry as technical ability to deliver then the project will get funded by government and privately.


What ever sells and sells in numbers is good for Russian Aviation Industry thats the way they can gather core competency and make them more competitive.

A Nice Short Video "Tupolev 9 Decades of Russian Aviation History"

https://youtu.be/YqCKGyI7aFU

Some footage of Tu-204SM cockpit in action , they call that epilot

Austin wrote:

flamming_python wrote:We should have as many simultaneous projects as possible in every class, and with as many partners as possible.
Even if some of them end up competing with one another, its no biggie.

The Economics of Scale wont allow them to build many simultaneous projects if they dont have customers to justify these , this is not the Soviet Union.

Only if the project has good market prospects and Russian aviation industry as technical ability to deliver then the project will get funded by government and privately.


What ever sells and sells in numbers is good for Russian Aviation Industry thats the way they can gather core competency and make them more competitive.

The ventures should be started and initial investments, R&D, etc... should be carried out, that's what I mean.

Of course the production capacities should only be set up for a given project if it catches enough interest and preliminary sales agreements to justify it - that goes without saying.

TR1 wrote:

Firebird wrote:

Austin wrote:Russian "Air Force One" Il-96 Takeoff at Berlin Tegel Airport

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN9nJiEvEWE

Its a shame that there seems to be a "gap" emerging in Russian long haul/wide body civillian jet production. I dont think they'll keep producing the Il-96, atleast not in numbers.

Yet both Ilyushin and Antonov(ok part Ukrainian, by numerous measures) have fantastic abilities in large civillian areas. MS-21 and the Superjet look like terrific 21st century airliners, but ofcourse are smaller.

I wonder what will happen in the larger passenger and cargo civillian( and related military) production area? In comparison to the work Airbus needed to do on the A-380, I think Russia could build an equivalent with absolute ease. And it would be a potent symbol of Russian expertise on a world level. After all, the Boeing 747 is still making money, many decades after introduction..

No way Russia could make an A380 equivalent with ease.

Modernizing military transports like AN-124 is one thing, making a huge competitive airliners is completely different.
Il-96 has barely sold, there is a reason it is being phased out.

They made the right approach with Superjet- start small and avoid direct competition with the big dogs.

I also hope they continue (without China) work on short range regional widebody for high capacity routes. That is a non-existent category of planes, so no established competitors.

OK by "with ease", is a relative term.I mean Russia is at the forefront of aviation technology BUT hasnt kept pace in the civillian field with noise and fuel efficiency in some areas. Nor does it have the worldwide servicing and sales infrastructures someone like Boeing have.

Not that long ago, Airbus has hardly anything. The western world was dominated by
Boeing and planes that hadnt really changed much in tech over a long time.

Imagine how much easier it would have been for Airbus if they had the expertise of Ilyushin, Tupolev and Antonov.

Air aviation isnt just a source of income. Its necessary for national pride, national security, a skilled workforce, and also utilising what Russia is a world leader in.
Its not like the production of say dishcloths or bicycle tyres.

Russia can produce cheaper than the EU and the US. And I believe it can produce better as well.

Whilst some of the Warsaw Pact countries have run away, other countries are now more open to alliance with Russia. And perpetual problems( eg West Ukrainians) can be dragged back into the fold, utilising their own Russian backed skills eg Antonov.

It will be interesting to see these other widebody projects. The Ekojet looks an amazing concept, and it'll be interesting to see how that develops too.

Austin wrote:

flamming_python wrote:We should have as many simultaneous projects as possible in every class, and with as many partners as possible.
Even if some of them end up competing with one another, its no biggie.

The Economics of Scale wont allow them to build many simultaneous projects if they dont have customers to justify these , this is not the Soviet Union.

Only if the project has good market prospects and Russian aviation industry as technical ability to deliver then the project will get funded by government and privately.


What ever sells and sells in numbers is good for Russian Aviation Industry thats the way they can gather core competency and make them more competitive.

When one door closed, new doors opened. Russia is now in the WTO and can export with greater ease to new friends and partners. Aviation should be as natural to Russian export as oil, gas and vodka, IMO.

PS sales and support is always intertwined with political and relational issues. Many countries have no desire to buy from NATO countries or even China - so Russia or a joint venture with Russia is the natural option - as happened in the past. And then EU partners will also appear eg if its them producing wings, engines, components or whatever.

flamming_python wrote:

Austin wrote:

flamming_python wrote:We should have as many simultaneous projects as possible in every class, and with as many partners as possible.
Even if some of them end up competing with one another, its no biggie.

The Economics of Scale wont allow them to build many simultaneous projects if they dont have customers to justify these , this is not the Soviet Union.

Only if the project has good market prospects and Russian aviation industry as technical ability to deliver then the project will get funded by government and privately.


What ever sells and sells in numbers is good for Russian Aviation Industry thats the way they can gather core competency and make them more competitive.

The ventures should be started and initial investments, R&D, etc... should be carried out, that's what I mean.

Of course the production capacities should only be set up for a given project if it catches enough interest and preliminary sales agreements to justify it - that goes without saying.

It would be a sad state of affairs if Putin or whoever turns up at the G20 etc in a Boeing rather than a Russian jet. With military crossover, I dont think Russia offering 4, 5, maybe 6 airlines is that hard. The global winners perhaps will be Superjet, MS-21 and *perhaps* 2 or more others (inc widebody longhaul). I wonder where things will be in 12 years time..

The lost decade of 90's and 2000 has hit Russian Civil Aviation industry badly.

It no more has captive market of former Soviet Republic and Friendly States that would purchase its Civil Aircraft.

Now Russia has to compete with the best in industry so it is that much difficult coming back after a lull of 2 decades.

It would take another 2 decades for Russian Civil Aviation industry to make a mark in world market

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/02/21/249687.html

In the interview linked about it says Superjet has 40 % Russian parts and MS-21 will have 60 % Russian components , the rest all are foreign ones.

Good News for IL-96 and Tu-204SM program

The total volume of agreements on deliveries of Russian planes to Cuba is $ 650 million

The total volume of the two agreements on supplies of Russian planes to Cuba is 650 million dollars. The Head of Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov told reporters after Russian-Cuban talks.

"Only the total amount for the supply of aircraft about 650 million dollars, - he said. - This two agreements for three An-158 /, three Il-96-400 / and two Tu-204SM."

Following the talks, signed an option agreement for the supply of three An-158. Manturov explained that the three aircraft to be delivered in addition to those already in Cuba will receive this year. "The first one in March, in June, the second and third will deliver in August," - said Minister of Industry. Under the second agreement, Cuba will supply three Il-96-400, which will be remade from the cargo version of the passenger, and two Tu-204SM that Cuba will receive upon completion of testing and certification. In addition, agreements, according Manturova will deliver complete sets of spare parts to maintain the operation of the aircraft, which are already in Cuba.

Manturov added that all aircraft are transmitted in the lease.

Austin wrote:http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/02/21/249687.html

In the interview linked about it says Superjet has 40 % Russian parts and MS-21 will have 60 % Russian components , the rest all are foreign ones.

It depends on what they mean by "parts".
It seems that the fuselage and wings do not count as "parts".
Think of all the sheetmetal, bolts, rivets etc.

Austin wrote:In the interview linked about it says Superjet has 40 % Russian parts

I think it is better than China..
China started in Civil aviation in 2000 some time and still cannot sell even one aircraft(civil)..it has 10 times human resource and financial muscle what russia can put together now in civil space.... China's marketing is comparable to Boeing, Google etc..

Not to offend but just by showing 20-30 employees in Tupolev.. I dont know.. just shows the clear picture on the abysmal HR resources ..

TR1 wrote:They made the right approach with Superjet- start small and avoid direct competition with the big dogs.

I fully and that is the reason Russia has upstaged China .. other BRIC countries in civil aircraft.. good thinking..

Austin wrote:http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2013/02/21/249687.html

In the interview linked about it says Superjet has 40 % Russian parts and MS-21 will have 60 % Russian components , the rest all are foreign ones.

Try to find some info about how much Boeing/Airbus planes has Russian parts. And am sure they have quite a bit.

Boeing currently produces Titanium for it's aircrafts with the Rostech unit VSMPO-AVISMA, together operating the Ural Boeing Manufacturing JV .

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2472

The lost decade of 90's and 2000 has hit Russian Civil Aviation industry badly.

It certainly did, but lets not dwell on that... it is not 1995 with no prospects of a Russian government order... it is 2013 with a military that wants to buy Russian planes that can be used to perfect designs and subsidise costs so commercial airlines can start looking much more seriously and your products.

It no more has captive market of former Soviet Republic and Friendly States that would purchase its Civil Aircraft.

It is not some pariah... former soviet states and warsaw pact states have flown the coop and would rather buy an inferior western aircraft just to show their new allegiences than buy a good Russian aircraft which makes marketting to them nearly pointless, but there are plenty of countries out there who are neutral and want good planes.

Now Russia has to compete with the best in industry so it is that much difficult coming back after a lull of 2 decades.

Not 100% true at all, with the current massive investment in the Russian aerospace industry and new orders from the Russian military they can certainly jump start things relatively quickly, though it wont happen over night. With new investment and orders they can build new factories with new technology tooling and systems, new construction methods and can start working with much newer materials.

[qutoe]It would take another 2 decades for Russian Civil Aviation industry to make a mark in world market[/quote]

No funding for their small arms makers... no tradition of very long range sniping, yet their Orsis company is already producing a rifle that is very accurate to 1.5km. With a few super computers used by UAC they should be able to do all sorts of design and testing quickly and cheaply and with robot prototyping machines they should be able to make and test parts fairly rapidly too, and with government investment and military purchases I rather doubt they will have to wait til 2033 before we start noticing them on the world market...

We have seen plenty of examples of rapid re-industrialization after crisis and global conglomerates or industries forming that start to bring out some very high-tech and competitive goods
Japan, South Korea, West Germany, USSR, now increasingly China too.

In South Korea's and China's case they didn't have the advantage of the educated population and pre-WW2 industrial heritage that Germany and Japan had; yet in recent decades they have grown faster than anyone.

No reason why Russia can't claim/reclaim a lot of niches and sectors over the next decade.
In the case of large passenger jets it will take longer, but the main thing is the will for it and continued investment.

Most people dont understand what kind of effort and human resource it take to design build and market an aircraft and how civil market is time and cost sensitive.

Here are the goals of Russian Civil Industry

http://www.uacrussia.ru/en/corporation/startegy/

to achieve a 10% share in the world civil aviation market and more than a 50% share in the domestic market by 2025;
to achieve a level of 15-16% in the military aircraft market;

Anoher one from Medvedev

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20121123/177691566.html

Speaking at a goverment meeting, Medvedev said Russian airlines need to take delivery on around 1,300 aircraft in the period to 2020 and that obsolescence is an increasing problem. The average age of Russia's civil aircraft is 17 years, he added.

"In all, the state program plans production of 3,300 airplanes and 5,500 helicopters for civilian and military aviation, and also 33,000 aircraft-engines," he said.

Russia to supply Cuba with 8 planes worth $650 mln

HAVANA, February 22 (Itar-Tass) - The total volume of two agreements on supply of Russian planes to Cuba amounts to 650 million dollars, Russian Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov told journalists on the results of the Russian-Cuban talks.

“The total volume for supply of planes is about 650 million dollars,” he said. “These are two agreements for supply of three An-158, three Il-96-400 and two Tu-204SM planes.”

An option agreement on supply of three An-158 plane was signed. As Manturov explained, these are the three planes which will be supplied apart from those that Cuba will receive already this year. “The first of them will be supplied in March, the second - - in June and the third - - in August,” the ministry’s head added.

According to the second agreement, three Il-96-400 planes, which will be remade from the cargo version into passenger one, and two Tu-204SM, which Cuba will receive after tests and certification, will be supplied to Cuba. Besides, the agreements, according to Manturov, envisage the supply of spare parts for the maintenance of those planes which are already in Cuba.

Ilyushin Finance & Co will purchase 32 Bombardier CS300 aircraft

Russian leasing company Ilyushin Finance & Co (IFC) has signed an agreement with Bombardier on delivery of 32 CS300 aircraft, plus option for another 10 aircraft, Business-TASS reports with reference to the Director of Public Relations division of the Canadian airframer, Marc Duchesne.

According to him, “the amount of this contract is about $2,56 billion (at current list prices for CS300 jets).The deal is value datover $3,42 billion including options".

The agreement was signed by the CEO of IFC, Alexander Rubtsov, and the President of Bombardier Commercial Aircraft, Mike Arcamone, in the presence of the Russian Minister of Industry and Trade, Denis Manturov.

As noted by Marc Duchesne, the Russian delegation visited the Bombardier’s headquarter in Montreal and the CS300 assembly line in Mirabel, Quebec. "Pierre Beaudoin, President and Chief Executive Officer
Bombardier Inc., met with Denis Manturov", - Marc Duchesne added.

"CS300 aircraft has a great potential, - Mike Arcamone said at the signing ceremony. – These jets are well-suited for operation in large countries like Russia".

Alexander Rubtsov said that IFC has placed such a large order for foreign aircraft for the first time. According to him, besides CS300, IFC is going to purchase SSJ-100 and MS-21 aircraft.

United Aircraft Corporation will deliver 300 new aircraft to the Russian Ministry of Defense over the next two years

United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will deliver 300 new aircraft to the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) during a period from 2013 to 2015. The new contracts with the MoD should be signed soon, Interfax reports.

It was stated by the Director of the Directorate of Air Force programs UAC, ex-Commander-in-Chief of the Russian air forces, Vladimir Mikhailov. "The new contract should be signed in late February – early March", - he said.

"to achieve a 10% share in the world civil aviation market and more than a 50% share in the domestic market by 2025;"

Even this is very optimistic and unrealistic IMO.

TR1 wrote:"to achieve a 10% share in the world civil aviation market and more than a 50% share in the domestic market by 2025;"

Even this is very optimistic and unrealistic IMO.

I agree it will be a very uphill task and depends how well it will be funded too.

TR1 are you aware of what is happening with PS-90A3 engine ..aint hearing much

So is Cuba buying transport or civil IL-400 , some news says they will convert IL-96-400 from Transport to Civil ...doesnt makes sense , Can any body clarify ?

I agree it will be a very uphill task and depends how well it will be funded too.

I agree that are serious effort will be required but a 10% market share is achievable within 10 or so years.

Also, I think most people here underestimate the severity of the economic problems facing most western countries. They peaked back in the 1990's / early 2000's and I don't think they can reverse the decline process. If Russia plays the "game" right, it will become one of the biggest economic powers in European terms.