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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    coolieno99

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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  coolieno99 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:55 pm

    AK-630-M2 dual Gatling guns CIWS

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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:39 am

    Is it me or did you only post text?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:51 am

    I see the vids, so perhaps it is you.

    You aren't tuning in from behind a firewall that blocks content are you?

    (Nice vids BTW coolieno99 )
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:07 am

    Dunno, but I can see the videos fine now. Nice vids too.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:39 am

    Some scribbling done by me when I was 10 years younger Laughing

    Modern Torpedoes And Countermeasures

    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-4/joseph.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:51 am

    Nice, though I would add that in addition to decoys and depth charges the RBU-1000 can also launch proximity mines in the path of incoming threats.

    The system can also be used against divers as well.

    I remember reading based on the systems fitted to new ships that the RBU-1000 has been largely supersceded by the PAKET which is basically a torpedo that homes in and destroys incoming torpedoes... a sort of anti torpedo torpedo... Individually more expensive but more capable... a bit like comparing 23mm cannon shells from a ZU-23 with an Igla SAM... the 23mm cannon shells can be used against a range of targets including ground targets but overall the SAM is more effective over a wider range in its primary role and so works out cheaper and easier to use.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:14 am

    Garry we dont know the name of the system but radar is from Phazotron and EO is Sphere-02 gyrostabilized optic-electronic observation device

    http://www.eng.npo-karat.ru/catalog/11-5/
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:16 am

    Clearly separate products mounted together so they can both benefit from good fields of view up high somewhere.

    Makes sense.

    I would expect that in an air defence setup the EO ball would be used to ID targets detected with a radar as it would not be good for search functions.
    (ie it would take too long to give a 360 degree scan of the airspace around the ship so a threat could close in and hit the ship without the ball ever looking in the right direction in time... It would make rather more sense to use radar to detect targets and then use this optics ball to have a closer look in TV or IR to ID the target... and AESA with 4 antenna covering 360 degrees could scan in every direction around the ship in less than half a second if you want to... anything it detects of interest the EO ball can be directed to have a closer look.)
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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:02 pm

    It is clear, that Sphere-02 have enough windows for day TV, thermal imager, laser range finder, IR missile locator and laser missile guidance system. In combination with AESA radars, this FCS complex could actually work with different type of air defense missiles, like radar guided missiles (ARH, SARH), IR guided, radio guided (radar could send radio guiding signals), laser guided missiles and at the end also CIWS guns. It all depends on the programmed parameters in its computers.

    As it use naval Sphere-02 EO ball and is shown in naval exhibition, this could be a ship based system placed on a place of search radar for Kashtan CIWS. But this doesn't mean, this complex could not be used in land based air defense. It could excellently work with SHORADs like Morfei, Pantsir, Tor-M2 or older as well as AA guns like Sosna with Sosna-R missiles or maybe Shilka in closed loop and could make them effective C-RAM system.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:37 am

    Indeed the fact that it is not type specific suggests it has more potential rather than less.

    Following reductions and limitations of systems to reduce the types in service there might be a bit of a fight to narrow down the types of systems used to make it easier to manage and operate.

    The positioning high up in the mast however suggests to me that it might be more intended as an independent surveillance device that is quite widely deployed on relatively small boats and up to larger vessels too.

    The combination of IR and radar would be more expensive than just radar alone but the combination of capabilities makes it far more potent than when used alone or separately.

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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:25 am

    I personally more think this complex will be both in one, air space surveillance and targets engagement as FCS system for air defense unit on ship or on ground. If it is only for surveillance, than EO ball doesn't need so many windows and could use cheaper ball with only TV and TI in it. AESA radar for sure could do both air space surveillance and target tracking with missile guidance. Also EO ball could do visual ID as well as tracking target and missile guidance in passive mode or in heavy jamming. That way could reduce number of radars on the ship and consumption of energy, what could make ships cheaper and same or more effective as they are now.

    This complex on the photo is seen relatively small and could be placed on ship mast or on truck or tracked vehicle in the place of turret for land version. We will see in what direction development will go.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:01 am

    Watching some of the videos of its use on the page Austin posted it seems most likely to be mounted on the mast of a ship and would be used in lieu of a pair of binoculars on the deck of the ship.

    The high magnification plus night and all weather capability would make it much better than binoculars on a ships deck especially if fully stabilised and well above sea spray height, with the added bonus of laser range finding capability.

    Just looking at the number of optics windows I would assume that the two large windows will be the Thermal and Digital optics cameras, while the remaining four optical ports are less obvious.

    The yellow sticker warning of laser radiation and the videos showing range to locked targets clearly suggest a laser range finder. This requires two optical ports, one to send the laser beam and one to detect the returning beam.

    The remaining two optical ports could be II and colour lower magnification ports, or they could include a laser beam for guiding laser beam riding missiles.

    It is perfectly possible that if it has laser ports incorporated into it that it could be used as an independent targeting system, so that for instance on a small patrol craft with a new 57mm automatic cannon that has an integrated optics system for lasing targets, if multiple targets appear the guns ability to fire several hundreds of shells per minute would not be matched by its laser systems ability to lase multiple targets at once so improved performance could be gained by perhaps facing the optics for the gun to one side of the ship to engage a threat and the mast mounted system at targets on the other side of the ship and have the gun fire a burst to each side to enable multiple targets to be engaged at once without needing radar emissions.

    You could probably have 2-4 of these optics turrets around the masts of the ship displaying their information on large screen displays on the bridge to give much better situational awareness for the captain... no more sneaking up on a ship even in harbour in a speed boat loaded with explosives...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:38 am

    BTW I was reading some more about the the naval Pantsir-S1 and the navy official said they were going to replace the OSA/Klintok class missiles in Navy service.

    So the new system will replace SA-N-4 and SA-N-9 systems.

    Makes sense to me as they offer a very low altitude intercept capability of 2m above the waves out to 20km.

    Interestingly this also suggests improved accuracy because the older missiles have proximity fuses set to about 5m which clearly can't be the case if it can hit targets 2m above the water.
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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    BTW I was reading some more about the the naval Pantsir-S1 and the navy official said they were going to replace the OSA/Klintok class missiles in Navy service.

    So the new system will replace SA-N-4 and SA-N-9 systems.

    Makes sense to me as they offer a very low altitude intercept capability of 2m above the waves out to 20km.

    Interestingly this also suggests improved accuracy because the older missiles have proximity fuses set to about 5m which clearly can't be the case if it can hit targets 2m above the water.



    I'm sure they will not install any new OSA or Klinok SAM system in any new ship, but newer naval Pantsir and naval version of Morphei ans Vityaz systems. But I doubt they will replace Osa and Klinok on existing ships with Pantsirs. I think new Pantsir could replace old Kasthan, while Osa and Klinok have radar stations and missile launchers on different places and Klinok is also vertical launched missile (naval Tor). Osa is too old system and is now two generations behind and it is a waste of money to work with them, but Klinok could be modernized to Tor-M2 level, which is no worse than Pantsir with similar capabilities.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:52 pm

    The ships they are looking at upgrading... is Kirov and Slava class vessels that have Klintok could have these systems replaced with Pantsir-S1.

    Given an overhaul and upgrade it makes no sense to keep old systems in service as they will become expensive over time both to maintain and upgrade.

    Makes rather more sense to replace them during overhauls with new systems.

    The enormous pedestal radar system for Klinok could be directly replaced with either a Pantsir-S1 turret directly, or a 5P-10 artillery fire control radar system turret which could direct a number of systems.

    It makes little sense to keep Klintok and Pantsir-S1 in service, the extra vertical launch space used by Klintok could be used for UKSK launchers or Redut launchers instead. The Klintok had a rotary launcher that allowed internal access and took up more internal space than needed.

    The 5km range of Morphei is a little disappointing but that article mentions that it uses active and passive guidance... perhaps suggests a combined IIR and ARH seeker?
    They have shown before seekers that combined passive radar homing sensors with active radar homing antennas... from memory the active radar homing range was 20-25km while the passive radar homing range was over 200km.

    Just read in a Russian news site that they are going to show their first UCAV at MAKS2011.

    I would think ATAKA, Kornet-M, and Krisantema-M would be the most likely and most useful armament for such a light platform (150-170kgs weapon payload).
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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:37 pm

    I still think Pantsir is more suited to replace old AK-630 and Kashtan systems, than Klinok. After all, Klinok is naval Tor system and Tor-M2 is in equal level with Pantsir. It is cheaper to upgrade Klinok radar to Tor-M2 level and put Tor-M2 missiles in launchers, than redesign construction of ships to place Pantsir in place of Klinok. It is more wise to place UKSK and Redut systems on new ships than redesigning old ships, which doesn't have that long life time left. Udaloys with Klinok upgraded to Tor-M2 level will be still well armed ships.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:43 am

    It could replace both Klinok and AK-630.

    Klinok... the system, was quite expensive and took a while to fully enter service.

    For quite some time the ships with it operated without the radar tower which made it non operational.

    For older ships that are not stealthy the Pantsir-S1 is a significant step up in that it can hit targets out to 20km in range, and up to 15km in altitude while being able to hit targets 2m above the waves. That is no longer a short range SAM... altitude wise that is BUK but with better low altitude performance.
    The potential to use the unified Hermes missiles with radio command inertial guidance and some form of terminal homing like IIR or MMW radar the range could actually be greatly extended and include ground targets.

    There is no reason why a Pantsir-S1 turret could not be made stealthy, though the launcher will never be as stealthy as the Klinok launcher the turret and radar and optics could be made more stealthy.

    It is quite common for navy radar systems to be fitted ball covers to protect them from the environment (ie sea spray and wind etc)... it would not be a huge step to mount a phased array radar inside a ball fairing that could be filled with exotic gasses that could be ionised by running a powerful electrical current through it.  ...ie plasma stealth.

    The thing is that Pantsir-S1 can be a short range SAM and CIWS and with guns is more flexible... you can't fire a warning shot with Klinok.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:33 pm

    BTW here is a photo of the Palma system with 30mm gatlings and SOSNA-R laser beam riding missiles and as you can see it has a lot of optical ports:



    The reason I post it is because it seems to have a similar number of optical ports as the system above and I also have a chart in Russian that describes the function of each optical port in the EO ball which is here:



    And I was hoping that if someone could translate the names of the ports we could perhaps work out what the optical ports on the Sphere system are.

    I am guessing that the larger two ports on the left is long range digital camera with high magnification on top and thermal sight below.
    I am also guessing that perhaps the middle two ports on the right side are probably for lasers for beam riding missiles and laser spot seeking missiles (Semi active laser homing) as well as for laser ranging.
    This leaves two ports... perhaps low light level television and a gionometer to track outgoing missiles?

    (Of course the ports in the Palma system are dedicated to search and track targets and guide laser beam riding missiles to targets so obviously there is no guarantee they will have any relation to the ports on the Sphere system... but I think it is interesting.)
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:47 pm

    My attempt at translation...

    Left

    1. Receiving channel for LRF
    2. Laser emitting channel for SAMs
    3. Thermal ch. for (??)
    4. Thermal channel for "bearing finder??" for SAMs

    Right

    1. Emitting channel for LRF
    2. Main Thermal channel
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    Gagydza

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Gagydza on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:15 am

    Cyberspec wrote:My attempt at translation...

    Left

    1. Receiving channel for LRF
    2. Laser emitting channel for SAMs
    3. Thermal ch. for (??)
    4. Thermal channel for "bearing finder??" for SAMs
    Number 3 is television guidance system.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:20 am

    Thanks for that guys:
    So we have... in no specific order, two ports for the optical laser range finder (LRF) for transmitting and receiving the laser, a laser emitting port for laser beam riding missiles (LTM or laser target marker), a television port... presumably for the operator to use in combination with a set of cross hairs and auto tracking software to find and lock targets, a thermal channel for "bearing finder" for SAMs is a goniometer port that tracks the actual position in the field of view of launched missiles so their deviation from the target can be calculated by the guidance system and the needed course corrections for the missile can be transmitted to the missile to get it on target.
    (note the goniometer is for command guided missiles only as beam riding missiles work out where they are in the laser beam and manoeuvre themselves onto the point of aim.)
    The main thermal channel would be used like the TV channel in adverse weather conditions, at night, or to see through some types of camouflage or some types of smoke or even light vegetation.

    So
    LRF = 2 ports
    LTM = 1 port
    DTV = 1 port
    Goniometer = 1 port
    Thermal Imager = 1 port

    The goniometer and thermal imager ports don't need optically transparent lenses so they can look gold coloured or even white or black because not only do they not need to be transparent to visible light it is often better if they aren't as it prevents distractions.
    The digital TV sight will often have a telescopic lens that is not that large, thermal imager often have a large surface area in comparison.

    So taking all this and looking at the new EO system based on looking at the system for the Palma system the laser emitter is a small port while the laser receiver is larger. The biggest is the thermal port... so my guess would be this:



    The main thing I am not totally sure of is whether the DTV and LTM are around the right way.

    The larger port I have marked for the DTV could be a very large aperture laser that is used for target marking for semi active laser homing weapons (ie a laser spot is projected on to the target and weapons from the ship or other platforms can use that to guide on to) or a much less powerful beam for laser beam riders like SOSNA-R.

    If we look at the advertisement photo on the site above for the EO system it is shown mounted on one side of the mast near the funnel suggesting there would be another positioned on the other side to give a complete field of view coverage. If both can mark targets and can be used to identify objects in the water or in the air then they greatly increase the ships potential to protect itself.

    For instance on a ship with a 57mm gun mount and a Pantsir-S1 turret or two these optic turrets could mark incoming anti ship missile from a higher angle, seeing targets further out and clear of sea spray for guided 57mm cannon shells, so with the 57mm gun pumping out shells at 120 rounds per minute and with at least two optical EO systems on the mast together with the 4-5 targets per minute the Pantsir-S1 can engage with missiles and guns... plus with the accuracy of a laser range finder a small ship can have a formidible close in defence capacity even ignoring any medium SAMs it might have.

    A Goniometer can measure deviation between the line of sight and an IR emitting object... which is normally a missile. It could easily be the cannon shells from a Duet turret with IR tracer elements in their tail, so it could assist in that engagement too.
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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:13 am

    I think DTV is marked correctly, because it is very similar to DTV used in Pantsir-S1.

    It looks like Zhuk AESA radar is actually working design, that it will be used on the ship and in KA-52 helicopter. Interesting is, that in all platforms (Mig-35, Ka-52 and Steregushy slass corvettes) Zhuk radar works with EO/IR complex, what could mean that radar electronic itself could use data from EO complex and comparing pictures and than give picture on display and to central computer. That could make system faster and more immune on electronic warfare.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:52 am

    Good work
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:28 am

    That would make its operation similar to the IRST/radar setup in the Soviet 4th gen fighters like the Mig-29 and Su-27 in the sense that they could work together against targets.

    An optical system will always have better angular tracking accuracy than a radar because the radar centre of an object is not necessarily the actual centre of an object and from some angles some shapes have radar centres that are not even part of the aircraft.

    In many ways the best compromise is to use and optical system to track close targets and use the radar for ranging. With the angular information from the the optical system the radar beam can be steered very accurately so no scan to find the target is needed, which limits the radars use to a ranging pulse of relatively low power... pretty much the same as a LPI mode but with any type of radar.
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    medo

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:29 pm

    True, but I'm not sure if radar in Mig-29 and Su-27 could itself use IRST picture and compare it with its own, or they independently show their picture on the screen and pilot compare them. But of course Radar/IRST combination is not something totally new.

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