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Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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Benya
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  Benya on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:12 pm

Arsenal Machine Building Plant to deliver 22 AK-176MA Naval Gun Systems to Russian Navy

A total of 22 upgraded AK-176MA guns designed for the advanced Project 22160 patrol ship and Project 22800 corvette will be delivered to Russia’s Navy before 2020, the press office of Russia’s Arsenal Machine-Building Plant said.


The AK-176MA naval gun system prototype. Picture by JSC "Arsenal Machine-Building Plant". (via flotprom.ru)

"Before 2020, the Arsenal Machine-Engineering Plant is expected to deliver 22 upgraded AK-176MA Mod. 01 guns to the Navy," the press office said.

"The first upgraded gun has been dispatched to the Zelenodolsk Shipyard [in the Volga area] to be mounted on the Project 22160 lead ship Vasil Bykov,"
the press office added.

The plant developed the upgraded version of the gun on its own initiative. The upgraded gun has completed field tests.

"All requirements indicated by the Navy in the tactical specifications have been met. The AK-176MA gun’s laying accuracy and grouping of shots have more than doubled, the laying speed has been increased considerably and the weight has been decreased to less than nine tons," the press office said.

The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels.

It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

"Russia’s Navy has received the advanced 76.2mm shipborne gun comparable with foreign-made analogs and superior to them by some characteristics," the press office added.

Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/march-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5002-arsenal-machine-building-plant-to-deliver-22-ak-176ma-naval-gun-systems-to-russian-navy.html



It can be also used to replace obsolete artillery systems of ships built earlier.

Well, AFAIK there are a multitude of Russian Navy ships currently in service that are using AK-176/AK-176M guns (most corvettes and some Ropucha-class landing ships), but I think that rearming them with this new AK-176MA would be only practical if they would be kept in service for at least 10-15 years, but that is highly unlikely.

New guns/weapon systems should only be equipped on newer ships in my opinion.
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:50 pm


...
The advanced AK-176MA gun is designed for littoral ships and is expected to be mounted on the Project 22160, 22800, 12418 and 23550 vessels. ...

OK so we have:

2x 12418 (those 2 with Uran missiles they are finishing)

2x 23550

6x 22160

That leaves 12 for 22800 so we can hope to see 12 Karakurts laid down until 2020. Just my guesstimate...
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:28 am

The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too.

They have developed guided 57mm shells so guided 76.2mm shells should be fairly easy to make too. that would allow greater engagement ranges against point targets like Anti ship missiles and other threats.

If some ragheads try to use a boat laden with explosives to attack a Russian ship there is nothing like a 76.2mm shell smacking them with twice the mass of a 57mm shell. (76.2mm shells have 6kg projectiles, while the 57mm rounds are 2.8kg projectiles...)


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PapaDragon
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:20 pm

GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too........

Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  Isos on Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:09 pm

PapaDragon wrote:
GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too........

Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.

Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:17 pm

Isos wrote:.....

Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.

Not a bad idea, they would get some good AA coverage on the cheap. Karakurts and Buyans are bit light on AA segment.

In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.
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Benya
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  Benya on Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:34 pm

PapaDragon wrote:

OK so we have:

2x 12418 (those 2 with Uran missiles they are finishing)

2x 23550

6x 22160

That leaves 12 for 22800 so we can hope to see 12 Karakurts laid down until 2020. Just my guesstimate...

Good estimate thumbsup It totally makes sense.

GarryB wrote:The new guns are more accurate, can be aimed faster, and the gun mount itself is much lighter...

At 9 tons, the new gun is 7.5 tons lighter than the older model which weighs about 16.5 tons... that is almost half the weight... a difference that would allow rather more ammo to be carried...

Clear for me. Since it's lighter, it can be mounted on lighter vessels.

GarryB wrote:It would make sense to upgrade existing vessels with this new gun... and new gun control sensors to make it more effective too.

... but not ships like Molniya/Tarantul-class corvettes and older Ropucha-class landing ships, which are/will be nearing decommissioning.

GarryB wrote:If some ragheads try to use a boat laden with explosives to attack a Russian ship there is nothing like a 76.2mm shell smacking them with twice the mass of a 57mm shell. (76.2mm shells have 6kg projectiles, while the 57mm rounds are 2.8kg projectiles...)

Well, a quick-firing 57mm gun like the Mk 110 made by BAE Systems, with airburst ammo would do the job quite good as well, a 76mm would be quite an overkill against a small motorboat.

PapaDragon wrote:Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

Pretty soon all missile boats of the Fleet will be replaced with Karakurts. They already have 2 shipyards beavering away at them at full speed. Should they add third into the mix we could see plenty of light ships going into early retirement.

Maybe my estimate is a litlle bit far-fetched, but I think that if 3 shipyards would start spewing out Karakurts, at least 18-24 of them would be made for 2020-2024, and of course, they could (and hopefully will) build more, since there are plenty of Tarantul and Grisha corvettes to replace.

Isos wrote:Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun. Saar 5 doesn't have gun, just Phalanx and barak missiles. A new luncher for naval Tor can carry much more than the version on Udaloy which are very well protected but takes lot of space. Moreover, they are planning to buid them in great numbers so buikding one with gun and one without gun can do the job, so that both of them protect the other with its own systems. The guns for naval threaths and the tor against missiles and helicopters.

PapaDragon wrote:Not a bad idea, they would get some good AA coverage on the cheap. Karakurts and Buyans are bit light on AA segment.

In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.

In my opinion, an AK-630M2 "Duet" (which Buyan-M corvettes already have), and a naval version of the Tor SAM system (not the "Kinzhal" one) would be enough for Karakurts and Buyans, "Palash"/"Palma" are better for larger ships (frigates/destroyers/cruisers).
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:54 am

Honestly, given the speed that Karakurts are going into production, I would bet all those vessels that might need these new 76mm guns will be retired and replaced by then.

Depends on how long they want to keep their older vessels in service for... there is still a gap with larger vessels anyway so keeping a few extra lighter vessels makes sense.

These new corvettes can perform many missions previously performed by Frigates or larger vessels so the new corvettes can supplement the older larger vessels while the older corvettes continue the work they are doing for a bit longer.

Or they can do like Israeli and put on some of them Tor missiles instead of the big gun.

Would prefer them to put both big guns and missiles on their ships. The whole focus is standardisation, so arming some with missiles and some with guns defeats the purpose of standardisation.

Newer missiles are much more capable than older models so not having ten times more missiles is not as bad as it appears.

In fact, replacing guns with AA missiles and old AShM with Urans on those Soviet era boats would be very quick and cost effective option. Small ships like those don't really need guns since these days they will be used as support for other vessels anyway.

Combat experience seems to suggest that having more guns is better and not worse. After the Falklands war Soviet vessels were noted to have a lot more HMG positions around the super structure and bridges... I doubt taking away medium and heavy guns is a good idea.

Just like I think it is important to keep a 30mm cannon on the PAK FA, Su-35, and MiG-35.

Clear for me. Since it's lighter, it can be mounted on lighter vessels.

The Soviets/Russians already fitted light vessels with heavy guns... the Pauk class for example would probably have had a 57mm gun if it was a western development.

The new gun mounts means they can fit 100mm guns in ships that previously carried 76.2mm guns already.

... but not ships like Molniya/Tarantul-class corvettes and older Ropucha-class landing ships, which are/will be nearing decommissioning.

For ships serving 5-10 or more years it makes sense... for ships about to be scrapped of course it makes no sense.

Well, a quick-firing 57mm gun like the Mk 110 made by BAE Systems, with airburst ammo would do the job quite good as well, a 76mm would be quite an overkill against a small motorboat.

Anything too small to be engaged by a 76.2mm gun can be engaged with 30mm or small arms fire.

since there are plenty of Tarantul and Grisha corvettes to replace.

They likely wont replace old models one for one...

In my opinion, an AK-630M2 "Duet" (which Buyan-M corvettes already have), and a naval version of the Tor SAM system (not the "Kinzhal" one) would be enough for Karakurts and Buyans,

I agree, but I think a medium calibre gun is more useful than just adding more missiles. The latest model of the TOR system is rather capable...


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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  George1 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:43 pm

"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html


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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:32 pm

George1 wrote:
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

Even after all this time?
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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:52 am

PapaDragon wrote:
George1 wrote:
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

Even after all this time?

Sound like Borisov is reminding Almaz-Antey that this isn't the U.S and they're not General Dynamics nor Lockheed Martin.

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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  miroslav on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:52 pm

PapaDragon wrote:
George1 wrote:
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

Even after all this time?

I thought that the Sthil system was tried and tested. We saw plenty of videos it being used and the core of the system is in use for the last 25 years, I presume that the "only" things that the new Shtil system introduced was better and faster electronics, better missile maneuvering and tracking and vertical launch capability. But all of it is based on a platform that works for some time now.

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Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

Post  miroslav on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:54 pm

PapaDragon wrote:
George1 wrote:
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html

So neither Redut nor Shtil work?

Even after all this time?

Maybe the statement was just taken out of context.

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Redut and Shtil Naval Systems

Post  calripson on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:58 pm

There is ample evidence that there are significant operational problems with the Redut naval system and apparently Shtil as well. This begs the question: are the deployed Stereguschy class ships deployed with non-operational SAM systems ? It is a little odd that the land based systems appear to work but not the naval versions.

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