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    GarryB

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    Palma system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:28 am

    The IRSTs didn't create pictures, they detected and locked on discrete targets and could be used to direct the seeker of a missile (IR or SARH at the time and now ARH) to a target. It could also direct the radar to that target without the radar having to scan for the target.

    For close range targets the ranging could be done in radar silence using a laser but in the early models that was only to about 8km.

    For Mig-29M I believe the laser ranging extended to about 14-15km and with the Mig-35 it is 20km for air and 25km for ground target ranging and marking.

    In naval use I would suspect the radar will be used for detection as it has full 360 degree all weather day and night coverage with electronic scanning it could scan the entire 360 degrees around the vessel in a millisecond... because nothing needs to move... it would just be radar elements turned on and off.

    Any object of interest would result in the optical ball turning to view and a powerful zoom lense no doubt used to examine the threat and identify whether it is an incoming cruise missile or a cessna or UAV or whatever.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:34 pm

    PALMA AIR DEFENSE MISSILE/GUN SYSTEM
    Author: Oleg Korotkov, Anatoly Karpov, Vladimir Kopylov

    Oleg Korotkov - general designer of special engineering, Doctor of Science, academician of RARAN
    Anatoly Karpov - chief of a complex
    Vladimir Kopylov - chief of external economic affairs department

    Military Parade,  No. 6, 2011

    Development of the highly effective naval air defense systems, capable to repel the swarm attacks of anti-ship missiles (ASM), has not reduced an urgency of development and manufacture of air defense small caliber artillery systems. Moreover the systems of this class have been advanced and fitted up by small-size short-range anti-aircraft missiles (SAM). It is determined by larger or smaller probability that cruise missiles will no be knocked down even by the most perfect missile systems.

    The reliable defense of such expensive armament as the warship may be ensured only by "reshooting" the penetrated missiles on the last defense line. In some cases, when the air defense missile system cannot be placed on the ship because of limitations on permissible mass or due to its excessively high cost, the small caliber artillery system fitted up by SAM is the only and simultaneously very effective self-defense weapon. The role of the air defense systems containing in their structure the small caliber artillery system is important for both ship defense in straits, narrows, protected waters, and for repelling the piracy attacks. The concept and main principles of the reviewed Palma air defense system were elaborated by developers headed by Arkady Shipunov,Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, with the direct participation of many leading specialists of the Navy and industry. This system was developed by JSC Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau (KBtochmash) being a part of JSC "RPC "High-precision complexes" holding company in close cooperation with FSUE KBP, JSC Tulamashzavod, JSC Amethyst Design Bureau and other leading enterprises.

    The concept of "Palma" system structure foresaw the follows:


    - use of combined armament that includes small caliber rapid-fire guns and small-size high-precision SAM;

    - application of high-precision electro-optical control system (EOCS) in combination with shipborne radar station control unit (SRSCU) in backup mode in extremely adverse weather conditions;

    - provision of complete automation of combat performance;

    - ensuring all-round ship defense by including up to four firing modules (FM) in the system structure (Fig.1);

    - provision of use this system on the mobilized ships and ashore by means of its own detection radar (DR) and gyrostabilization systems (GSS) incorporated into the base complete equipment and through the development of container-based design version;

    - provision of integration with ship-borne DR, GSS and SRSCU in case of use on the Navy ships and boats;

    - development of the system with provision for the creation of large modernization potential ensuring a capability of qualitative improvement by the subsequent upgrades.

    The developed concept has reflected in the base principles of system construction:


    1. As armaments of firing models are used two AO-18KD rapid-fire modernized cannons guns with link-less ammunition feed, increased projectile muzzle velocity and with essentially increased service life and also highly effective eight Sosna-R light hypersonic SAM.

    Main technical characteristics of firing module:


    Armament:

    - artillery:
    two 30mm AO-KD guns with an ammunition load of 1500 rounds;

    - missile:  
    eight Sosna-R SAM

    Control system :  
    automatic EOCS, by shipborne 5P-10 RCS in backup mode

    Distance of target defeat, km    
    0.2 - 10

    Altitude of the target defeat, km  
    to 5.0

    Time from target designation till engagement, sec
    5

    Weight with an ammunition load and secondary power sources, t  
    7.4


    2. Armament and surveillance and target designation radar are installed directly on artillery mount on "the same axis" to exclude the errors caused by ship strains.

    3. For target acquisition according to target designation and for target tracking and armament aiming the system uses the specially designed high-precision ECM-pro-tected automatic electro-optical control system (EOCS) unified with EOCS of Sosna SAM.

    4. The structure of EOCS contains a full set of the necessary information channels placed on gyrostabilized platform allowing use it round of clock and in adverse weather conditions. In extremely adverse weather conditions the system is controlled by 5P-10 ship-borne radar control system.

    5. The EOCS has increased jamming immunity due to using information channels with narrow fields of sight and application of special signals processing algorithms in the automatic control unit of target acquisition and tracking, considering the target signatures. Besides, it is impossible to distort laser spot-beam rider guidance or to flash an optoelectronic sensor of a flying missile by the similar laser beam.

    6. High performance of SAM is attained due to high accuracy of missile guidance, circle diagram of proximity fuse, overlapping of guidance errors by kill zone, and also due to short flight times to the target.

    7. High accuracy of SAM guidance is ensured through small errors of target tracking, high accuracy of laser-guidance system, large available lateral g-load of missile and due to application of special control algorithms realized in the microcomputer onboard a missile.

    8. High engagement effectiveness of artillery armament is realized due to high accuracy of laying

    Main characteristics of EOCS:


    Operating modes: Target acquisition:
    automatic, semiautomatic, inertial external target designation, independent automatic, sector search

    Range of pointing angles, in azimuth/angle of sight, deg.:
    ± 178 / -20 ... 82

    Maximum angular rates and accelerations, deg/sec / deg/s2:
    50/150

    Field of view, deg:
    - TV system 2.0хx3.0 / 6.5х9.0

    - Thermal image channel  
    2.2х2.7 / 6.7х9.0

    Distance of a taking into target autotracking at (max.range of visibility =15 km, p=80 %), km:


    - Airplanes / helicopters / cruise missiles


    16 ... 30 / 10 ... 14 / 8 ... 12


    - Armour installations  
    8

    Measured distance, km:  
    up to 20

    Accuracy (MSE):

    - stabilization, mrad  
    0.07

    - finding of coordinates and distances, mrad/m  
    0.2/5.0

    - laying of laser range finder
    0.1

    - Laying of information field of laser-beam control channel, mrad  
    0.08 ... 0.12



    the cannons, small dispersion and a large density of fire.

    9. Automatic, inertial and semiautomatic laying modes are realized in a system. High automation of combat performance processes is attained owing to application of modern algorithms, and also due to information processing and decision making system, allowing to exclude the necessity of permanent operator participation in the fast flowing combat performance processes. In the semiautomatic mode which is used mainly in difficult countermeasures environment the system is controlled by operator.

    Structurally the firing module is comprised of an artillery mount with gear system and electro-optical control system.

    Sosna-R SAM consists of main propulsion stage, separated engine and detachment point. The SAM placed and stored in the transport-launching container (TLC) and launched from it. The missile has small acceleration time and is characterized by high aeroballistic efficiency.

    The combined control system is used for missile guidance - a radio command system and high-precision ECM-protected laser-beam guidance after engine detachment and missile injection into a sight line.

    The electro-optical system control (EOCS) ensures the target detection, automatic acquisition, tracking, measuring of angular coordinate and distance, and also laying of an information field of laser-beam control channel to the target at any time in the conditions of jamming and natural noise, including against the background of clouds, terrain features and horizon line.

    EOCS consists of following blocks (Fig.3):

    - electro-optical tracking system,

    - digital computing system

    - operator panel,

    - power panel.

    The trials of Palma system in fullscale conditions on the ship of Project "Gepard 3.9" have confirmed very high accuracy of targeting and have allowed to defeat the shown targets by the first missile or by first string of burst (Fig.2). An insertion in an angle of photo shows the warhead blasting at the target.

    FSUE Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau actively expands the potential of Palma system and also makes efforts to ensure its leading positions in this class of weapons.


    The main technical characteristics of missile:


    Distance and altitude of impact zone, km  
    up to 10.0 / to 5.0
    Total weight of warhead, kg    
    6.9
    Contact-proximity fuse  
    laser fuse with the circular diagram
    SAM weight, launching / in transport-launch container, kg
    30.6 / 42.0
    Caliber before and after SAM detachment, mm  
    132 / 72
    SAM length in flight / in transport-launch container, mm  
    2317 / 2400

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    GarryB

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    PALMA AIR DEFENSE MISSILE/GUN SYSTEM

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:25 pm

    Yes, I am getting a little behind in my voting as there is so much new stuff that I like being posted...

    I'll vote for the Palma system post first as the photo at the bottom is interesting... Smile
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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:55 am

    Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?

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    Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:32 pm


    George1 wrote:Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?


    No George , it is practically the unique hard kill anti-torpedo defence system now operative worldwide, naturally it mantain also a close range anti-submarine/saboteur capability




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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:14 am

    The Russian navy is far ahead of the Russian Army and Air Force.

    Austin... perhaps you should learn a bit about the Sigma system?
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:58 am





    1 - Commander's automated workstation (ARM)
    1a - Helmsman's workstation
    1b - Watch officer's ARM
    2 - Navigator's ARM
    3 - Database unit
    4 - BCh-7 commander's ARM
    5 - AD chief's ARM
    6 - Data exchange unit
    7 - ASW/radio awereness operator's ARM
    8 - BCh-7 plotter ARM
    9 - Close air and surface control unit
    11 - Aircraft combat control operator's ARM
    12 - System control operator's ARM
    13 - Radar link unit
    14 - Electrical system units

    To explain what is BCh-7: In the Russian Navy, an individual ship's TO&E is divided into Battle Stations (BCh) and Battle Services (Sl). Each BCh and Sl can also be divided into divisions, groups, sections, watches and so on.

    Battle Stations:

    BCh-1: navigation
    BCh-2: missile-artillery
    BCh-3: mine-torpedo
    BCh-4: communications
    BCh-5: propulsion
    BCh-6: aviation
    BCh-7: radar control

    Battle Services:

    Sl-H: NBC protection
    Sl-M: medical
    Sl-S: supply

    *******************************************************************************
    Every ship will get this system from carrier down to Corvette.
    Even the Buyan gunboat for the Caspian Sea Flotilla has Sigma... though it is the Domestic version rather than the export system.

    It is a battle management and communications system that combines data from multiple sources to form an air/sea/underwater picture of the space around the various vessels.

    This means a Corvette fitted with Redut could launch a 400km range SAM at a target it has no chance of detecting itself, but can receieve data about the target from a platform located closer to the target to allow the interception to take place.

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    The Russian navy is far ahead of the Russian Army and Air Force.

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:Austin... perhaps you should learn a bit about the Sigma system?

    I am aware of it for a long time , I believe a variant of it will be on our Groshkov carrier Vikramaditya

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    Seems this is the future CIWS for Russian Navy

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:52 am

    Seems this is the future CIWS for Russian Navy

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/6231/

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    Naval weapons systems

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:16 pm

    Just had a discussion on how SS-N-16 works , it seems that when the SS-N-16 Veter is fired and reaches its destination , the torpedo is dropped down and then it enters the water and does a spiral movement downward.

    The spiral movement is to ensure a 360 degree search as it moves down with its sensors and once a target is found , it torpedo moves in the direction of target.

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    If the torpedo misses the target , its does a rerun at the target.

    If true its quite impressive.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:27 pm

    Austin wrote:Just had a discussion on how SS-N-16 works , it seems that when the SS-N-16 Veter is fired and reaches its destination , the torpedo is dropped down and then it enters the water and does a spiral movement downward.

    The spiral movement is to ensure a 360 degree search as it moves down with its sensors and once a target is found , it torpedo moves in the direction of target.

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    If the torpedo misses the target , its does a rerun at the target.

    If true its quite impressive.


    Yes Austin this is an explicative image from the maker.





    The type of guidance and target acquisition is not too different from that of 91RE1 of Klub missile family

    Yes ,it is a truly impressive weapon that ,like the 91RE1 ,has stil today no corresponding abroad and opening virtually countless tactical solutions and capabilities ,simply out of reach for any enemy devoid of a similar system.
    The only real defect of the RPK-6/7 torpedo ,at least its older version, is a reduced probability to hit in very shallow waters ,but this is a problem common for almost all air delivered light torpedo.



    Last edited by Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:32 pm


    This is a video of a salvo launch of two RPK-7



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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:53 am

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    To be able to operate in active search mode, it already has the components necessary to act passively.

    You have two ears. Together you can use them to find the sources of sound... A telephone rings in a messy bedroom you use a combination of the direction the sound is coming from in relation to your two ears and you physically move to make the sound appear louder... as long as it keeps on ringing you will eventually locate it.

    The torpedo has active sonar homing, which means it has a mechanism to make a noise and a mechanism to detect the reflection of that noise and its precise direction. To use it in passive mode is simply to have it listen for noises and not ping itself... if it hears something it analyses the signal to see if it is a target or a whale, or something natural. If it is identified as a target using a library of target signatures, then it starts up its motor and heads towards the noise.

    If it doesn't it might ping to see what is there.... if it detects a large object it accelerates and attacks.

    Yes ,it is a truly impressive weapon that ,like the 91RE1 ,has stil today no corresponding abroad and opening virtually countless tactical solutions and capabilities ,simply out of reach for any enemy devoid of a similar system.

    Not strictly true. The US had the Subroc and the ship launched equivalent Asroc, and they were planning its replacement called Sea Lance, but the quietening technology of Soviet and then Russian subs made it pointless without a nuke warhead, so it was cancelled.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:28 pm


    The US had the Subroc and the ship launched equivalent Asroc,

    GarryB SUBROC and ASROC aren't in any way weapons equivalent to RPK-6/7 series neither to 91R series of ASW missiles.


    ASROC/SUBROC series were unguided ,subsonic, rocket propelled systems armed at maximum with very light torpedo (only in the surface version) uncapable of any type of area search/engagement function and with range of 15,8 Km in the '70 years version and 22 Km in the 1993 RUM-139 Vertical Launch version; the submarine version -UUM-44-,as well specified by Norman Friedman, was even worse at the point that ,for its complete lack of any capability of point engagement and its very low reliability its only possible employment would have been area saturating attacks using nuclear warheads .

    Even only the antediluvian end of '60 years Метель -SS-N-14- was vastly superior to ASROC in practically any cardinal parameter ,but also here even attampt to talk of a comparable system would be completely wrong.
    The Метель was a far more complex and efficient system , capable to point engage both submarines following a 400 m cruise altitude, at over 55 Km of distance (three times and half the engagement range of the ASROC operative in the same years..) with terminal area serch function and surface targets following a sea-skinning profile at 15 m of altitude


    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/rastrub/rastrub.shtml


    and they were planning its replacement called Sea Lance, but the quietening technology of Soviet and then Russian subs made it pointless without a nuke warhead, so it was cancelled

    Also the failed UUM-125 Sea Lance project,if ever realized,in '90 years would have been vastly inferior ,in any cardinal parameter ,against the end of '70 years RPK-7 Very Happy Very Happy


    Reality is ,obviously, much simpler : Exist miltary-scientific sectors wherein URSS/Russia was/is vastly head of Western nations (and similar products into examination pertain just to one of those sectors) and others (such as data processing systems or UAV technology) where is true the opposite ; in those sectors the gap is so wide that attempt to find exact corrispectives on a side or the other conduct to Kafkaesque assuptions .

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:41 pm

    I knew they were inferior... Smile

    But they are also supersonic ballistic rockets that deliver a torpedo to a distant target.

    There is also the Australian Ikara, which was similar to SS-N-14, though inferior in range and with no anti ship secondary capability (ie radar and IR guidance for anti ship use).

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 am

    While the concept of SS-N-16 is sound for stand of target engagement , its probably high time they develop a Son of SS-N-16 using the modern electronics/solid fuel and propulsion plus most importantly newer Torpedoes like Fizik-2.

    Since it seems like 533 mm TT will be the standard and 650 mm will fade away , it would make sense to move to modern variant of SS-N-16.

    We really know so less on what is going on Torpedo front these days.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:57 am

    Austin... I am surprised at you...

    One member of the Club family delivers Torpedoes to a range of 40km for the ship launched model and 50km for the sub launched model.

    Every modern Russian ship with a UKSK system will be able to use it...

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:40 am

    I know about Klub but I am talking about the big long range ones with 533 mm Torpedoes , Klub carries a small torpedo APR-3 series which are smaller 350 mm torpedoes.

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/521/

    http://militaryforces.ru/weapon-2-35-212.html
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

    AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

    My point related to 533 mm Torpedo for SS-N-16 like weapon was not related to its warhead size which is sufficient which i agree but compared to 350 mm weapon a 533 mm weapon would have bigger sensors and can have better processing capability to sniff out silent submarine plus it would afford longer range and higher speed compared to smaller weapon.

    Some interesting Torpedo development that can be worth considering are the Black Shark and F21 both are 522 mm weapon

    Check it out

    Black Shark http://www.wass.it/WASSWEB/brochure/black_shark.pdf
    F21 http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/dti/2011/02/01/DT_02_01_2011_p20-283026.xml

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:26 am

    No 533mm torpedo can move as fast through water or as "silently" as a rocket travelling through the air.

    It makes rather more sense to use a smaller torpedo and simply try to drop it closer to the target.

    The problem is that a 21 inch torpedo is already very large and heavy so a rocket stage needed to carry that 50km or more will mean it will be rather long and heavy and a bit larger calibre than the original torpedo.

    If they still used their 650mm torpedo tubes then it would be a good option for their Subs but I don't think they are continuing to use them in their new vessels.

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    Russian SSN

    Post  Austin on Sat May 05, 2012 6:30 am

    Garry from what we could see in Club class weapon , the rocket torpedo has been standardised with 533 mm Rocket Torpedo carrying 350 mm Torpedo , which is good.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 pm



    Boris Obsonov ,General Director of Tactical Missile Corporation, announce at Гидроавиасалоне-2012 that plans to increase both range and speed of the already outstanding underwater missile-torpedo "Squall" are actually in work in response to ever increasing interest ,by part of potential international buyers, toward this advanced weapon.


    http://vz.ru/news/2012/9/7/597040.html


    Other interesting points touched are the finished works for the export version of both the greatly improved models of air-lauched high speed anti-ship missile- Kh-31-AD- and antiradar missile Kh-31PD



    The last word , obviously to the development of Hypersonic Missiles defined by Boris Obsonov (....in the same way of any other knowledgeable, technical responsible in military field Rolling Eyes ) a truly crucial segment with immeasurable potential benefical returns in the Aerospace Civil sector.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:49 pm

    So what is the next generation Squall is Russian Navy working on , I mean not the export model but what RuN uses , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:37 pm

    , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?


    Yes, its speed will be increased over that of the domestic version (superior to 500 Km/h) so will its range


    will it have guidance



    Will ? Sometime i remain surprised that some "notions" could become so rooted in common immaginary (for effect of an odd, foundless information repeated over and over ) even when it result completely irreconcilable not only with any rational inference ,but even only with mere common good sense.

    The only version of "Shkval" devoid of guidance (simply because it would have provided foreign entities with a deep understanding of the technical principles at the basis of the VA-111's propulsion ) was the export version that ,in fact ,was limited to 7 km engagement range (the maximum allowing a similar unguided cavitating torpedo to retain any type of effective operational employment) and only against surface targets.

    This is a brief article with some historical facts on VA-111's development ,by Alexander Karpenko ,which could aid at realize as, already in Soviet times VA-111 ,in its advanced incarnations, was obviously never conceived as an unguided weapon .


    http://vpk-news.ru/articles/3990






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