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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    medo
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:37 pm

    I still think Pantsir is more suited to replace old AK-630 and Kashtan systems, than Klinok. After all, Klinok is naval Tor system and Tor-M2 is in equal level with Pantsir. It is cheaper to upgrade Klinok radar to Tor-M2 level and put Tor-M2 missiles in launchers, than redesign construction of ships to place Pantsir in place of Klinok. It is more wise to place UKSK and Redut systems on new ships than redesigning old ships, which doesn't have that long life time left. Udaloys with Klinok upgraded to Tor-M2 level will be still well armed ships.
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    GarryB
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    BTW I was reading some more about the the naval Pantsir-S1 and the navy official said they were going to replace the OSA/Klintok class missiles in Navy service.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:43 am

    It could replace both Klinok and AK-630.

    Klinok... the system, was quite expensive and took a while to fully enter service.

    For quite some time the ships with it operated without the radar tower which made it non operational.

    For older ships that are not stealthy the Pantsir-S1 is a significant step up in that it can hit targets out to 20km in range, and up to 15km in altitude while being able to hit targets 2m above the waves. That is no longer a short range SAM... altitude wise that is BUK but with better low altitude performance.
    The potential to use the unified Hermes missiles with radio command inertial guidance and some form of terminal homing like IIR or MMW radar the range could actually be greatly extended and include ground targets.

    There is no reason why a Pantsir-S1 turret could not be made stealthy, though the launcher will never be as stealthy as the Klinok launcher the turret and radar and optics could be made more stealthy.

    It is quite common for navy radar systems to be fitted ball covers to protect them from the environment (ie sea spray and wind etc)... it would not be a huge step to mount a phased array radar inside a ball fairing that could be filled with exotic gasses that could be ionised by running a powerful electrical current through it. ...ie plasma stealth.

    The thing is that Pantsir-S1 can be a short range SAM and CIWS and with guns is more flexible... you can't fire a warning shot with Klinok.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:34 pm

    PALMA AIR DEFENSE MISSILE/GUN SYSTEM
    Author: Oleg Korotkov, Anatoly Karpov, Vladimir Kopylov

    Oleg Korotkov - general designer of special engineering, Doctor of Science, academician of RARAN
    Anatoly Karpov - chief of a complex
    Vladimir Kopylov - chief of external economic affairs department

    Military Parade, No. 6, 2011

    Development of the highly effective naval air defense systems, capable to repel the swarm attacks of anti-ship missiles (ASM), has not reduced an urgency of development and manufacture of air defense small caliber artillery systems. Moreover the systems of this class have been advanced and fitted up by small-size short-range anti-aircraft missiles (SAM). It is determined by larger or smaller probability that cruise missiles will no be knocked down even by the most perfect missile systems.

    The reliable defense of such expensive armament as the warship may be ensured only by "reshooting" the penetrated missiles on the last defense line. In some cases, when the air defense missile system cannot be placed on the ship because of limitations on permissible mass or due to its excessively high cost, the small caliber artillery system fitted up by SAM is the only and simultaneously very effective self-defense weapon. The role of the air defense systems containing in their structure the small caliber artillery system is important for both ship defense in straits, narrows, protected waters, and for repelling the piracy attacks. The concept and main principles of the reviewed Palma air defense system were elaborated by developers headed by Arkady Shipunov,Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, with the direct participation of many leading specialists of the Navy and industry. This system was developed by JSC Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau (KBtochmash) being a part of JSC "RPC "High-precision complexes" holding company in close cooperation with FSUE KBP, JSC Tulamashzavod, JSC Amethyst Design Bureau and other leading enterprises.

    The concept of "Palma" system structure foresaw the follows:


    - use of combined armament that includes small caliber rapid-fire guns and small-size high-precision SAM;

    - application of high-precision electro-optical control system (EOCS) in combination with shipborne radar station control unit (SRSCU) in backup mode in extremely adverse weather conditions;

    - provision of complete automation of combat performance;

    - ensuring all-round ship defense by including up to four firing modules (FM) in the system structure (Fig.1);

    - provision of use this system on the mobilized ships and ashore by means of its own detection radar (DR) and gyrostabilization systems (GSS) incorporated into the base complete equipment and through the development of container-based design version;

    - provision of integration with ship-borne DR, GSS and SRSCU in case of use on the Navy ships and boats;

    - development of the system with provision for the creation of large modernization potential ensuring a capability of qualitative improvement by the subsequent upgrades.

    The developed concept has reflected in the base principles of system construction:


    1. As armaments of firing models are used two AO-18KD rapid-fire modernized cannons guns with link-less ammunition feed, increased projectile muzzle velocity and with essentially increased service life and also highly effective eight Sosna-R light hypersonic SAM.

    Main technical characteristics of firing module:


    Armament:

    - artillery:
    two 30mm AO-KD guns with an ammunition load of 1500 rounds;

    - missile:
    eight Sosna-R SAM

    Control system :
    automatic EOCS, by shipborne 5P-10 RCS in backup mode

    Distance of target defeat, km
    0.2 - 10

    Altitude of the target defeat, km
    to 5.0

    Time from target designation till engagement, sec
    5

    Weight with an ammunition load and secondary power sources, t
    7.4


    2. Armament and surveillance and target designation radar are installed directly on artillery mount on "the same axis" to exclude the errors caused by ship strains.

    3. For target acquisition according to target designation and for target tracking and armament aiming the system uses the specially designed high-precision ECM-pro-tected automatic electro-optical control system (EOCS) unified with EOCS of Sosna SAM.

    4. The structure of EOCS contains a full set of the necessary information channels placed on gyrostabilized platform allowing use it round of clock and in adverse weather conditions. In extremely adverse weather conditions the system is controlled by 5P-10 ship-borne radar control system.

    5. The EOCS has increased jamming immunity due to using information channels with narrow fields of sight and application of special signals processing algorithms in the automatic control unit of target acquisition and tracking, considering the target signatures. Besides, it is impossible to distort laser spot-beam rider guidance or to flash an optoelectronic sensor of a flying missile by the similar laser beam.

    6. High performance of SAM is attained due to high accuracy of missile guidance, circle diagram of proximity fuse, overlapping of guidance errors by kill zone, and also due to short flight times to the target.

    7. High accuracy of SAM guidance is ensured through small errors of target tracking, high accuracy of laser-guidance system, large available lateral g-load of missile and due to application of special control algorithms realized in the microcomputer onboard a missile.

    8. High engagement effectiveness of artillery armament is realized due to high accuracy of laying

    Main characteristics of EOCS:


    Operating modes: Target acquisition:
    automatic, semiautomatic, inertial external target designation, independent automatic, sector search

    Range of pointing angles, in azimuth/angle of sight, deg.:
    ± 178 / -20 ... 82

    Maximum angular rates and accelerations, deg/sec / deg/s2:
    50/150

    Field of view, deg:
    - TV system 2.0хx3.0 / 6.5х9.0

    - Thermal image channel
    2.2х2.7 / 6.7х9.0

    Distance of a taking into target autotracking at (max.range of visibility =15 km, p=80 %), km:


    - Airplanes / helicopters / cruise missiles


    16 ... 30 / 10 ... 14 / 8 ... 12


    - Armour installations
    8

    Measured distance, km:
    up to 20

    Accuracy (MSE):

    - stabilization, mrad
    0.07

    - finding of coordinates and distances, mrad/m
    0.2/5.0

    - laying of laser range finder
    0.1

    - Laying of information field of laser-beam control channel, mrad
    0.08 ... 0.12



    the cannons, small dispersion and a large density of fire.

    9. Automatic, inertial and semiautomatic laying modes are realized in a system. High automation of combat performance processes is attained owing to application of modern algorithms, and also due to information processing and decision making system, allowing to exclude the necessity of permanent operator participation in the fast flowing combat performance processes. In the semiautomatic mode which is used mainly in difficult countermeasures environment the system is controlled by operator.

    Structurally the firing module is comprised of an artillery mount with gear system and electro-optical control system.

    Sosna-R SAM consists of main propulsion stage, separated engine and detachment point. The SAM placed and stored in the transport-launching container (TLC) and launched from it. The missile has small acceleration time and is characterized by high aeroballistic efficiency.

    The combined control system is used for missile guidance - a radio command system and high-precision ECM-protected laser-beam guidance after engine detachment and missile injection into a sight line.

    The electro-optical system control (EOCS) ensures the target detection, automatic acquisition, tracking, measuring of angular coordinate and distance, and also laying of an information field of laser-beam control channel to the target at any time in the conditions of jamming and natural noise, including against the background of clouds, terrain features and horizon line.

    EOCS consists of following blocks (Fig.3):

    - electro-optical tracking system,

    - digital computing system

    - operator panel,

    - power panel.

    The trials of Palma system in fullscale conditions on the ship of Project "Gepard 3.9" have confirmed very high accuracy of targeting and have allowed to defeat the shown targets by the first missile or by first string of burst (Fig.2). An insertion in an angle of photo shows the warhead blasting at the target.

    FSUE Nudelman Precision Engineering Design Bureau actively expands the potential of Palma system and also makes efforts to ensure its leading positions in this class of weapons.


    The main technical characteristics of missile:


    Distance and altitude of impact zone, km
    up to 10.0 / to 5.0

    Total weight of warhead, kg
    6.9

    Contact-proximity fuse
    laser fuse with the circular diagram

    SAM weight, launching / in transport-launch container, kg
    30.6 / 42.0

    Caliber before and after SAM detachment, mm
    132 / 72

    SAM length in flight / in transport-launch container, mm
    2317 / 2400

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    GarryB
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    PALMA AIR DEFENSE MISSILE/GUN SYSTEM

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:25 pm

    Yes, I am getting a little behind in my voting as there is so much new stuff that I like being posted...

    I'll vote for the Palma system post first as the photo at the bottom is interesting... Smile
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:55 am

    Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?

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    Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:32 pm


    George1 wrote:Paket ASW system is RPK-9 Medvedka?


    No George , it is practically the unique hard kill anti-torpedo defence system now operative worldwide, naturally it mantain also a close range anti-submarine/saboteur capability





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    Seems this is the future CIWS for Russian Navy

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:52 am

    Seems this is the future CIWS for Russian Navy

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/6231/

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 pm



    Boris Obsonov ,General Director of Tactical Missile Corporation, announce at Гидроавиасалоне-2012 that plans to increase both range and speed of the already outstanding underwater missile-torpedo "Squall" are actually in work in response to ever increasing interest ,by part of potential international buyers, toward this advanced weapon.


    http://vz.ru/news/2012/9/7/597040.html


    Other interesting points touched are the finished works for the export version of both the greatly improved models of air-lauched high speed anti-ship missile- Kh-31-AD- and antiradar missile Kh-31PD



    The last word , obviously to the development of Hypersonic Missiles defined by Boris Obsonov (....in the same way of any other knowledgeable, technical responsible in military field Rolling Eyes ) a truly crucial segment with immeasurable potential benefical returns in the Aerospace Civil sector.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:49 pm

    So what is the next generation Squall is Russian Navy working on , I mean not the export model but what RuN uses , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:37 pm

    , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?


    Yes, its speed will be increased over that of the domestic version (superior to 500 Km/h) so will its range


    will it have guidance



    Will ? Sometime i remain surprised that some "notions" could become so rooted in common immaginary (for effect of an odd, foundless information repeated over and over ) even when it result completely irreconcilable not only with any rational inference ,but even only with mere common good sense.

    The only version of "Shkval" devoid of guidance (simply because it would have provided foreign entities with a deep understanding of the technical principles at the basis of the VA-111's propulsion ) was the export version that ,in fact ,was limited to 7 km engagement range (the maximum allowing a similar unguided cavitating torpedo to retain any type of effective operational employment) and only against surface targets.

    This is a brief article with some historical facts on VA-111's development ,by Alexander Karpenko ,which could aid at realize as, already in Soviet times VA-111 ,in its advanced incarnations, was obviously never conceived as an unguided weapon .


    http://vpk-news.ru/articles/3990





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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:22 am

    Has Squal ever been deployed on Russian subs post USSR?

    I believe no.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:36 am

    Why wouldn't it be?

    AFAIK they are successful weapons that are fairly widely deployed.

    Note these are not the HTP powered torpedoes that destroyed the Kursk, AFAIK Shkval torpedoes are not powered by HTP, which is better known as hydrogen peroxide.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:08 pm

    Anybody know what the status is on the Russian Paket-E/NK anti-torpedo defense system?? Question
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:09 pm

    Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.

    That's good, i thought the project was abandoned. Surprised

    Any other ships or just the 20380?
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:32 pm

    22350 is also going to use the Paket.
    Not sure about anything else, but that is quite a lot of ships as is.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:07 am

    Actually I remember discussing the Paket system a while back and the person I was chatting to had concluded that the Paket system had been selected by the Russian Navy as the way forward.

    As far as anti torpedo systems go the Russians had the RBU series of depth charge throwers that launched a range of rocket types in the path of torpedoes including jammers, floating mines, and depth charges in the path of the incoming torpedoes... these rockets could also be used against divers and enemy submarines.

    The problem is that these rocket systems weren't very stealthy as they were not retractable.

    I have seen a ship design drawing I think Austin posted of a light patrol boat that seemed to have a vertical launch system that included small calibre rockets so they might be going to vertical launch alternatives, but I suspect the higher kill ratio of a Paket system against an enemy torpedo has been chosen for its cost effectiveness and stealthiness over the old RBUs.


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    Russia to Develop Naval Equivalent of U.S. Aegis Defense System

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:36 pm

    Russia is set to develop a sea-based missile defense program similar to the U.S. Aegis system, a senior defense industry official said on Friday.

    Aegis, designed to intercept ballistic missiles at the post-boost phase and prior to reentry, is part of the U.S. national missile defense strategy.

    “This task has been assigned to [the defense] industry,” said Anatoly Shlemov, head of the state defense contracts department at the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    Aegis analogs are being developed at companies affiliated with PVO Almaz-Antei [an air defense concern],” he said.

    He declined to elaborate citing the classified nature of the topic.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20120831/175538466.html
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:31 am

    Actually that is not true... AEGIS is a naval based battle management system that takes data from sonar, radar and other sensors and combines them into a subsurface, surface, and air picture to help defend carrier battle groups at sea.

    Only recently has it acquired any ABM capability.

    The Russian Navy equivalent of AEGIS is called Sigma and pretty much does the same thing of combining data from subsurface, sea, land, air and space assets to provide a complete picture of the battlespace and can be used to direct the defence of assets.

    Even the smallest new Russian Corvette is being fitted with Sigma and the standard cruise missile VLS and SAM VLS systems. A tiny Corvette could use data from a carrier 500km away to launch a 400km range SAM at a target 300km away from the Corvette and 200km from the carrier using data from the carriers AWACS aircraft... not many other corvettes have that capacity.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:02 pm

    Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:10 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study

    I believe its in the pipeline.

    Pancir-S1 is for ADS is still in Ashuluk on a testing ground and a new version is about to enter service with new radar.

    Together with Tor-M1-2.
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:22 pm

    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

    I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:43 pm


    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.



    And anyone here honestly hope that your opinion will be totally shared by US Navy Command and those of its allied nations ,it would be a true dream realized Very Happy
    Unluckily i honestly believe that they share the opinion exactly opposite to yours.....



    1) Shkval-E torpedo offered on international market is not only a vastly downgraded version of the first model of VA-111 (capable moreover to hit only surface units ) but also show an immensely simplified propulsion section just to prevent anyone to obtain ,from samples of this export version ,any technical information useful for develop, at its own time, a supercavitating torpedo version even only on par with the first domestic version.

    2) Even this vastly downgraded unguided export version of the first model of VA-111 can represent a simply deadly weapon ,without any peer among competitors in the hands of a proficient operator.
    The weapon ,in facts, assure the destruction of the attacked targets in spite of any defensive torpedo counter-measure on board for the simple reason that ,in virtue of its enormous speed ,it can literally proceed toward the computed intercept point in a totally unguided way (therefore totally immune to any soft-kill countermeasure) and still prevent the engaged ship to avoid the impact in any way; also the immensely more advanced and faster guided version can initiate the terminal , completely inertial, engagement phase toward the intercept point far outside the range of any anti-torpedo defensive countermeasure.
    The only real defensive countermeasure against those class of weapons is represented by active anti-torpedo hard-kill defensive systems such as "Paket" ,anyhow with reduced threat's suppression chances; but ,at today ,exactly as for VA-111 torpedo, don't exist any western corresponding to Paket hard kill defensive system. Wink )



    A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.


    Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Dozen of different systems could be used to attempt to engage an enemy submarine .....if detected in first instance and....if detected long enough .
    Several of those systems, wanting only to talk of conventional means, are hundreds of times more efficient than an Sh-60 (used mostly to deploy sonobuoys screens or to remotely investigate a "contact" at a speed of....170-180 km/h Laughing

    Do you know, if you receive a remote contact from a sonobuoys barrier or a bottom MAD sensors or thermo-differential detector or even a distant submarine or ship, two or three RPK-7 "Veter" or 91R1 "Kalibr" going toward the coordinates at more than 1800 km/h or 2400 km/h have several hundreds of times more chances to destroy the detected enemy submarine before the contact go lost.

    Returning to the real range of detection of enemy submarines (outside national sea areas covered by overlapping sensor systems) results obtained by the entire ASW screens of US NAvy CVBGs against even the most outdated foreign conventional submarines -several of which vastly inferior even to export models of first version ok Kilo class - are ......not perfectly encouraging.





    This is a cute photo taken by the......Oberon-class !!! .... HMAS "Onslow" submarine of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Carl Vinson" ,just before executing its simulated "kill" from ....300 yards after having surpassed totally undetected the surface and submarine screen of the CVBG










    This is USS "Enterprise" ,in all its beauty, kindly eternalized by a photo from a German Type 206A












    This instead is a lovely closing salutation ,before the kill, from the much more modern Type 212, SMG "S. Todaro" to the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Theodore Roosevelt" ,just seconds after having engaged also a destroyer of its escort Wink







    And so on with Australian Collin class, Chinese Song class , Dutch Zwaardvis-class etc…..

    With VA-111-E (export version) torpedo any submarine, in the same conditions and operation time, would have been perfectly capable to engage the entire CVBG instead of one or two at maximum, with the absolute certainty ,not only that none of the attacked ships would have been capable to neutralize in any way the menace , but that the immensely reduced time for the target's destruction and the lack of need for any wire guidance wouldn't have conceded to them any window for execute a counter attack on the submarine .


    "seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval".......oh yes, yes, of course. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:04 pm

    like a boss Cool
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

    Another doubt about russian weapons capability once again destroyed for good Very Happy
    However If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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