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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:28 pm


    The US had the Subroc and the ship launched equivalent Asroc,

    GarryB SUBROC and ASROC aren't in any way weapons equivalent to RPK-6/7 series neither to 91R series of ASW missiles.


    ASROC/SUBROC series were unguided ,subsonic, rocket propelled systems armed at maximum with very light torpedo (only in the surface version) uncapable of any type of area search/engagement function and with range of 15,8 Km in the '70 years version and 22 Km in the 1993 RUM-139 Vertical Launch version; the submarine version -UUM-44-,as well specified by Norman Friedman, was even worse at the point that ,for its complete lack of any capability of point engagement and its very low reliability its only possible employment would have been area saturating attacks using nuclear warheads .

    Even only the antediluvian end of '60 years Метель -SS-N-14- was vastly superior to ASROC in practically any cardinal parameter ,but also here even attampt to talk of a comparable system would be completely wrong.
    The Метель was a far more complex and efficient system , capable to point engage both submarines following a 400 m cruise altitude, at over 55 Km of distance (three times and half the engagement range of the ASROC operative in the same years..) with terminal area serch function and surface targets following a sea-skinning profile at 15 m of altitude


    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/rastrub/rastrub.shtml


    and they were planning its replacement called Sea Lance, but the quietening technology of Soviet and then Russian subs made it pointless without a nuke warhead, so it was cancelled

    Also the failed UUM-125 Sea Lance project,if ever realized,in '90 years would have been vastly inferior ,in any cardinal parameter ,against the end of '70 years RPK-7 Very Happy Very Happy


    Reality is ,obviously, much simpler : Exist miltary-scientific sectors wherein URSS/Russia was/is vastly head of Western nations (and similar products into examination pertain just to one of those sectors) and others (such as data processing systems or UAV technology) where is true the opposite ; in those sectors the gap is so wide that attempt to find exact corrispectives on a side or the other conduct to Kafkaesque assuptions .

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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:41 pm

    I knew they were inferior... Smile

    But they are also supersonic ballistic rockets that deliver a torpedo to a distant target.

    There is also the Australian Ikara, which was similar to SS-N-14, though inferior in range and with no anti ship secondary capability (ie radar and IR guidance for anti ship use).

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 am

    While the concept of SS-N-16 is sound for stand of target engagement , its probably high time they develop a Son of SS-N-16 using the modern electronics/solid fuel and propulsion plus most importantly newer Torpedoes like Fizik-2.

    Since it seems like 533 mm TT will be the standard and 650 mm will fade away , it would make sense to move to modern variant of SS-N-16.

    We really know so less on what is going on Torpedo front these days.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:57 am

    Austin... I am surprised at you...

    One member of the Club family delivers Torpedoes to a range of 40km for the ship launched model and 50km for the sub launched model.

    Every modern Russian ship with a UKSK system will be able to use it...

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:40 am

    I know about Klub but I am talking about the big long range ones with 533 mm Torpedoes , Klub carries a small torpedo APR-3 series which are smaller 350 mm torpedoes.

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/521/

    http://militaryforces.ru/weapon-2-35-212.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

    AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

    My point related to 533 mm Torpedo for SS-N-16 like weapon was not related to its warhead size which is sufficient which i agree but compared to 350 mm weapon a 533 mm weapon would have bigger sensors and can have better processing capability to sniff out silent submarine plus it would afford longer range and higher speed compared to smaller weapon.

    Some interesting Torpedo development that can be worth considering are the Black Shark and F21 both are 522 mm weapon

    Check it out

    Black Shark http://www.wass.it/WASSWEB/brochure/black_shark.pdf
    F21 http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/dti/2011/02/01/DT_02_01_2011_p20-283026.xml

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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:26 am

    No 533mm torpedo can move as fast through water or as "silently" as a rocket travelling through the air.

    It makes rather more sense to use a smaller torpedo and simply try to drop it closer to the target.

    The problem is that a 21 inch torpedo is already very large and heavy so a rocket stage needed to carry that 50km or more will mean it will be rather long and heavy and a bit larger calibre than the original torpedo.

    If they still used their 650mm torpedo tubes then it would be a good option for their Subs but I don't think they are continuing to use them in their new vessels.

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    Russian SSN

    Post  Austin on Sat May 05, 2012 6:30 am

    Garry from what we could see in Club class weapon , the rocket torpedo has been standardised with 533 mm Rocket Torpedo carrying 350 mm Torpedo , which is good.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 pm



    Boris Obsonov ,General Director of Tactical Missile Corporation, announce at Гидроавиасалоне-2012 that plans to increase both range and speed of the already outstanding underwater missile-torpedo "Squall" are actually in work in response to ever increasing interest ,by part of potential international buyers, toward this advanced weapon.


    http://vz.ru/news/2012/9/7/597040.html


    Other interesting points touched are the finished works for the export version of both the greatly improved models of air-lauched high speed anti-ship missile- Kh-31-AD- and antiradar missile Kh-31PD



    The last word , obviously to the development of Hypersonic Missiles defined by Boris Obsonov (....in the same way of any other knowledgeable, technical responsible in military field Rolling Eyes ) a truly crucial segment with immeasurable potential benefical returns in the Aerospace Civil sector.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:49 pm

    So what is the next generation Squall is Russian Navy working on , I mean not the export model but what RuN uses , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:37 pm

    , will it have guidance , higher speed and range ?


    Yes, its speed will be increased over that of the domestic version (superior to 500 Km/h) so will its range


    will it have guidance



    Will ? Sometime i remain surprised that some "notions" could become so rooted in common immaginary (for effect of an odd, foundless information repeated over and over ) even when it result completely irreconcilable not only with any rational inference ,but even only with mere common good sense.

    The only version of "Shkval" devoid of guidance (simply because it would have provided foreign entities with a deep understanding of the technical principles at the basis of the VA-111's propulsion ) was the export version that ,in fact ,was limited to 7 km engagement range (the maximum allowing a similar unguided cavitating torpedo to retain any type of effective operational employment) and only against surface targets.

    This is a brief article with some historical facts on VA-111's development ,by Alexander Karpenko ,which could aid at realize as, already in Soviet times VA-111 ,in its advanced incarnations, was obviously never conceived as an unguided weapon .


    http://vpk-news.ru/articles/3990





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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:22 am

    Has Squal ever been deployed on Russian subs post USSR?

    I believe no.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:36 am

    Why wouldn't it be?

    AFAIK they are successful weapons that are fairly widely deployed.

    Note these are not the HTP powered torpedoes that destroyed the Kursk, AFAIK Shkval torpedoes are not powered by HTP, which is better known as hydrogen peroxide.


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    George1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:40 pm

    First Submarine-Launched BrahMos Missile to Fly This Year

    First launch of submarine-based Russian-Indian cruise missile BrahMos will be carried out by the end of the current year, director of BrahMos Aerospace Dr. Sivathanu Pillai told ARMS-TASS at the 23-rd international exhibition Euronaval-2012.

    "We're going to perform the first submarine-based version of the missile by underwater testing platform by the end of the current year", Pillai said.

    As for him, that test launch will be a significant milestone in the BrahMos program, because right after that Indian Navy is to decide whether to arm India's prospective non-nuclear submarine with those missiles.

    According to a representative of the Rubin Design Bureau, Russia is ready to offer Amur-1650 submarine armed with either Club or BrahMos missile system.

    "So far, Indian partners have not brought up integration of BrahMos system into Amur-1650 which is participating in the Indian Navy's tender for prospective submarine 75I", said Andrei Baranov, deputy director of Rubin bureau for foreign economic activities.

    Presently, Russian project of the sub is equipped with Club missiles, well known in Indian Navy and launched by horizontal torpedo tubes. But if Indian partners desire to integrate vertical-launch attack missile system BrahMos, Russia is ready to redesign the project, Baranov said.

    "BrahMos will be placed inside Amur-1650 submarine as an additional compartment with vertical launchers", explained the Rubin's spokesman.

    "Amur and BrahMos are well-compatible, and we have worked hard on the submarine-missile architecture. So, if Indian party wants this sub to have BrahMos missiles, that would improve chance of Rosoboronexport in the 75I tender", he stressed.

    On the other hand, he added that issuing of the 75I tender had been postponed several times. According to the latest information, the tender can be announced in the next year, Baranov said.

    State-led JSC Rosoboronexport will offer perspective non-nuclear submarine Amur-1650 with air-independent powerplant for India's tender for procurement and license production of six non-nuclear subs.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16238
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:08 pm

    Anybody know what the status is on the Russian Paket-E/NK anti-torpedo defense system?? Question
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:09 pm

    Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.

    That's good, i thought the project was abandoned. Surprised

    Any other ships or just the 20380?
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:32 pm

    22350 is also going to use the Paket.
    Not sure about anything else, but that is quite a lot of ships as is.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:07 am

    Actually I remember discussing the Paket system a while back and the person I was chatting to had concluded that the Paket system had been selected by the Russian Navy as the way forward.

    As far as anti torpedo systems go the Russians had the RBU series of depth charge throwers that launched a range of rocket types in the path of torpedoes including jammers, floating mines, and depth charges in the path of the incoming torpedoes... these rockets could also be used against divers and enemy submarines.

    The problem is that these rocket systems weren't very stealthy as they were not retractable.

    I have seen a ship design drawing I think Austin posted of a light patrol boat that seemed to have a vertical launch system that included small calibre rockets so they might be going to vertical launch alternatives, but I suspect the higher kill ratio of a Paket system against an enemy torpedo has been chosen for its cost effectiveness and stealthiness over the old RBUs.


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    George1

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    Russia to Develop Naval Equivalent of U.S. Aegis Defense System

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:36 pm

    Russia is set to develop a sea-based missile defense program similar to the U.S. Aegis system, a senior defense industry official said on Friday.

    Aegis, designed to intercept ballistic missiles at the post-boost phase and prior to reentry, is part of the U.S. national missile defense strategy.

    “This task has been assigned to [the defense] industry,” said Anatoly Shlemov, head of the state defense contracts department at the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    Aegis analogs are being developed at companies affiliated with PVO Almaz-Antei [an air defense concern],” he said.

    He declined to elaborate citing the classified nature of the topic.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20120831/175538466.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:31 am

    Actually that is not true... AEGIS is a naval based battle management system that takes data from sonar, radar and other sensors and combines them into a subsurface, surface, and air picture to help defend carrier battle groups at sea.

    Only recently has it acquired any ABM capability.

    The Russian Navy equivalent of AEGIS is called Sigma and pretty much does the same thing of combining data from subsurface, sea, land, air and space assets to provide a complete picture of the battlespace and can be used to direct the defence of assets.

    Even the smallest new Russian Corvette is being fitted with Sigma and the standard cruise missile VLS and SAM VLS systems. A tiny Corvette could use data from a carrier 500km away to launch a 400km range SAM at a target 300km away from the Corvette and 200km from the carrier using data from the carriers AWACS aircraft... not many other corvettes have that capacity.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:02 pm

    Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study
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    Viktor

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:10 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study

    I believe its in the pipeline.

    Pancir-S1 is for ADS is still in Ashuluk on a testing ground and a new version is about to enter service with new radar.

    Together with Tor-M1-2.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:22 pm

    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

    I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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