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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    Shadåw
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Shadåw on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:12 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Loiter near an enemy ship with a subsonic cruise missile... are you serious?

    Not really a ship but around land targets , Since Block 4 has MMW radar it can very well image a land target among clutter and while they loiter they also gather intelligence and relay it in real time via satcom or a UAV.

    Its more like Loiter , Gather Intelligence and then pounce on the target which were seems very critical from the intelligence gathered.

    Its a nice capability to have basicly they act like UAV closer to enemy but with ability to attack as well.

    Good luck with that Very Happy Very Happy

    Shooting practice.

    I`m going to assume this will only be used on incompetent 3rd world armies rather then any modern, well trained and equiped force?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:22 am

    As mentioned a subsonic missile emitting MMW radar energy will not be a problem for a modern defence.

    If you want a MALE or HALE then send one.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:08 pm

    Anybody know what the status is on the Russian Paket-E/NK anti-torpedo defense system?? Question

    TR1
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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:09 pm

    Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.

    That's good, i thought the project was abandoned. Surprised

    Any other ships or just the 20380?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:32 pm

    22350 is also going to use the Paket.
    Not sure about anything else, but that is quite a lot of ships as is.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:07 am

    Actually I remember discussing the Paket system a while back and the person I was chatting to had concluded that the Paket system had been selected by the Russian Navy as the way forward.

    As far as anti torpedo systems go the Russians had the RBU series of depth charge throwers that launched a range of rocket types in the path of torpedoes including jammers, floating mines, and depth charges in the path of the incoming torpedoes... these rockets could also be used against divers and enemy submarines.

    The problem is that these rocket systems weren't very stealthy as they were not retractable.

    I have seen a ship design drawing I think Austin posted of a light patrol boat that seemed to have a vertical launch system that included small calibre rockets so they might be going to vertical launch alternatives, but I suspect the higher kill ratio of a Paket system against an enemy torpedo has been chosen for its cost effectiveness and stealthiness over the old RBUs.


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    Russia to Develop Naval Equivalent of U.S. Aegis Defense System

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:36 pm

    Russia is set to develop a sea-based missile defense program similar to the U.S. Aegis system, a senior defense industry official said on Friday.

    Aegis, designed to intercept ballistic missiles at the post-boost phase and prior to reentry, is part of the U.S. national missile defense strategy.

    “This task has been assigned to [the defense] industry,” said Anatoly Shlemov, head of the state defense contracts department at the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    Aegis analogs are being developed at companies affiliated with PVO Almaz-Antei [an air defense concern],” he said.

    He declined to elaborate citing the classified nature of the topic.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20120831/175538466.html

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:31 am

    Actually that is not true... AEGIS is a naval based battle management system that takes data from sonar, radar and other sensors and combines them into a subsurface, surface, and air picture to help defend carrier battle groups at sea.

    Only recently has it acquired any ABM capability.

    The Russian Navy equivalent of AEGIS is called Sigma and pretty much does the same thing of combining data from subsurface, sea, land, air and space assets to provide a complete picture of the battlespace and can be used to direct the defence of assets.

    Even the smallest new Russian Corvette is being fitted with Sigma and the standard cruise missile VLS and SAM VLS systems. A tiny Corvette could use data from a carrier 500km away to launch a 400km range SAM at a target 300km away from the Corvette and 200km from the carrier using data from the carriers AWACS aircraft... not many other corvettes have that capacity.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:09 am

    Well, interesting stuff. Smaller Brahmos-M is in the pipe and Su-30 will be able to carry 3 of them, and Mig-29 two as opposed to

    one Brahmos-A, Su-30 can carry.

    The development of a smaller version of the supersonic missile "Brahmos"

    20/02/2013 A joint Russian-Indian company BrahMos Aerospace began to develop a smaller version of the supersonic missile "Brahmos", said a source close to the Ministry of Defence of India.

    "Weight of the new missile will be 1.5 tons, length - about six feet - the source ITAR-TASS. "It will be for the Su-30MKI and MiG-29, however, for this and for other military vehicles that are in service or to be taken by the Air Force of India, including aircraft Rafale and Mirage 2000" - he said. However, he stressed that it is not a missile "Brahmos" airborne ("BrahMos-A"), the test to be held later this year. "This is a different missile, - he explained. - If the Su-30MKI can install only one missile "BrahMos-A", then "BrahMos-M - three. MiG-29 - it will be possible to establish two missile" BrahMos-M. " According to him, "BrahMos- M "will be first tested at 1.5 - 2 years. Its range also be about 290 km. According to the newspaper VIEW, January 9, in the Bay of Bengal command warship of the Indian Navy successfully launched the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile "Brahmos". rocket flew 290 kilometers (almost maximum range) and by doing "double maneuver in the form S" hit the ship-goal at the level of one meter above the waterline, the source said, adding that the ship was "broken through." In October, the first deputy director of the NGO Engineering Alexander Dergachev said run an anti-ship cruise missile "Brahmos" submarine-scheduled for the end of 2012. Dergachev reminded that the missile "Brahmos" is designed to be versatile, able to start as a marine and surface and underwater vehicles, with a slope of 15 to 90 degrees, and from the ground. Machinery NGO representative said that by surface missile "Brahmos" is armed with 10 ships of the Naval Forces of India, each of which is eight to 16 missiles of this class. Russian-Indian joint venture "BrahMos "(NGO Organization Engineering and Defence Research and Development of India), established in 1998, specializes in the creation of supersonic missile ship and shore-based. missile "Brahmos" is designed to engage a wide range of marine purposes. It is characterized by high-range (up to 290 km) , hypersonic speeds (up to 2.8 m), a powerful combat load (250 kg), and low signature to radar. missile, whose weight in the base case is three tons, can be adjusted in height from 10 meters to 14 thousand . meters with respect to the trajectory. in new rocket into practice the principle of "fire - forget" - a goal she finds herself. According to experts, this unique missile, which would have the supersonic speed and a similar range in the world yet.

    http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=138477


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 am

    I wonder what the point is.
    There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:02 pm

    Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:10 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study

    I believe its in the pipeline.

    Pancir-S1 is for ADS is still in Ashuluk on a testing ground and a new version is about to enter service with new radar.

    Together with Tor-M1-2.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:57 am

    I wonder what the point is.
    There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

    Agreed... the French and Germans spent years talking about an anti ship missile that would be about 800kgs, would fly at Mach 2 with a 90kg warhead... they changed their minds several times and changed the name of it several times too but never actually got anything actually flying in the end.

    In comparison the Soviets got the anti ship and anti radar Kh-31 into service and have managed to make it lighter and faster and cover a greater range than was envisioned by the European missile design.

    There is no real benefit to creating a smaller Brahmos if it is going to replicate the performance of the Kh-31... it would make rather more sense to make a smaller Brahmos II hypersonic missile for tactical fighters and perhaps even helos and perhaps also a surface launched model for corvettes and perhaps conventional subs...

    I remember seeing a photo that claimed to be a reduced size Kh-35 uran for smaller vessels over shorter ranges, which would certainly be useful, but a hypersonic missile would be even more useful.

    I guess the main point of a smaller and lighter Brahmos would be to allow large numbers to be fired more rapidly to overwhelm the defences of any vessel/group of ships/land based target.

    A missile designed to fit in the rotary internal launcher of the Backfire would certainly be useful... especially as that would mean the Blackjack should be able to hold 24 such weapons if needed in a conventional strike mission...


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  eridan on Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:11 am

    How is a missile which has same range, same speed and 2-3 times smaller warhead for 2-3 times more missiles per aircraft not worth it? And how does that fall into same category as even the most advanced kh31 missile, which still falls short in range compared to that. Making a smaller brahmos for air launch makes perfect sense. Current air launched variant, even if it is a bit lighter than regular variant, is really too much of a missile for 90% of possible missions. Plus there is the whole saturation of target thing which may prove worth the extra cost if it means actually getting some missiles to the target, even in those remaining 10% of the missions. Even an undetonated missile can serious endanger a ship, let alone coupled with 100 kg warhead. 300kg warheads are often overkill, especially so if it means having less individual missiles carried and launched.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:22 pm

    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

    I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:51 am

    TR1 wrote:I wonder what the point is.
    There is already Kh-31 with extended range for example.

    Kh-31 is a decades old design that has been upgraded and re-upgraded. It can not be upgraded much more. While the Brahmos is new and has much more future potential. I bet the smaller missile, if it indeed is produced, will have a superior range compared to Kh-31 and be just as fast.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:04 am

    How is a missile which has same range, same speed and 2-3 times smaller warhead for 2-3 times more missiles per aircraft not worth it?

    When there is a missile already in service with similar flight parameters... the latest model Kh-31 in the anti ship/anti radiation model has a flight range of 250km, a flight speed of about mach 3, yet weighs about 650kgs... the Mig-35 could probably carry at least 6 of them, perhaps 8.

    Redesigning it for scramjet propulsion could result in a significant increase in speed and range.

    Not suggesting a smaller lighter Brahmos is a bad idea... just saying it already exists in the form of the late model Kh-31.

    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

    The export model Shkval is unguided and is a short range self defence weapon that should be very effective as most counter measures take time to deploy.

    Shkval is but one tool in the tool kit... in a few years time submarines could be equipped with the sub equivalent of the 9M100, the land based version is called Morfei... it will be an imaging infrared guided missile with lock on after launch capability... that sea hawk has a very noisy engine...

    Longer range... better guidance... higher speed... it has a lot of potential.

    I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

    Think of it in terms of aircraft... as everyone moves to more stealthy aircraft designs, then the usefulness of long range missiles diminishes because there is no point in having 500km range AAMs if the enemy planes can't be detected till they are within 10km... in which case the Shkval suddenly becomes a very potent weapon.

    Kh-31 is a decades old design that has been upgraded and re-upgraded. It can not be upgraded much more. While the Brahmos is new and has much more future potential. I bet the smaller missile, if it indeed is produced, will have a superior range compared to Kh-31 and be just as fast.

    I really don't see how that can be true... the current model Kh-31s use new fuels and new ramjet engines and new materials... there is nothing in the design of the Yakhont that makes it a better missile apart from scale allowing a larger warhead.

    The new model Kh-31 anti ship version has a range of 250km in its export model... to scale down the Brahmos they would need to take out fuel and warhead and make a smaller seeker.... and basically make a Kh-31.


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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  eridan on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The new model Kh-31 anti ship version has a range of 250km in its export model... to scale down the Brahmos they would need to take out fuel and warhead and make a smaller seeker.... and basically make a Kh-31.

    That is all news to me. What credible link supports those numbers? All i've found so far is kh31ad version - http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/564/ where it claims 715 kg weight, 110 kg weight of warhead, 160 km max theoretical range. Practical ranges fired from 10 km altitude and with sea skimming last phase would be less, as also pointed out at the website. So where did 250 km figure come from? That is some newest version? kh31adm or whatever?

    And it is wishful thinking that mig29/35 would carry more than 4 such missiles in any real world mission.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:29 am

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/565/

    As you can see the airframes range has no problem with 250km.


    Anyways this "small" Barhmos is vaporware so far. When it actually appears, we can compare.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  eridan on Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:05 pm

    Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.

    Those same pages give actual, more useful ranges in practice, up to 160 km for actual antishipping range of actual antishipping variant. Why cling on a figure taken as theoretical maximum of an airframe? It is there black on white, why pick a different set of figures on purpose, figures that are not meant to be interpreted as practical range values?

    It is much more useful to have a missile that will stay below the radar horizon for the whole 300 km of its flight range than one that will have to be fired at 15 km altitude, at mach 1,5, then go into a climb and painfully glide to squeeze out all energy to reach 250 km, leaving no energy for course correction (which may not even be efficient if missile is fyling too high) no energy for end manouvers and overall little chance of doing its mission since it was flying over the radar horizon, in a straight and steady trajectory, and took some 5-6 minutes to do it all, exposing itself to the target and possible interceptors.

    A 1200-1500 kg brahmos-lite stands much better chances of actually completing its mission, and doing it from somewhat longer range.

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:43 pm


    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.



    And anyone here honestly hope that your opinion will be totally shared by US Navy Command and those of its allied nations ,it would be a true dream realized Very Happy
    Unluckily i honestly believe that they share the opinion exactly opposite to yours.....



    1) Shkval-E torpedo offered on international market is not only a vastly downgraded version of the first model of VA-111 (capable moreover to hit only surface units ) but also show an immensely simplified propulsion section just to prevent anyone to obtain ,from samples of this export version ,any technical information useful for develop, at its own time, a supercavitating torpedo version even only on par with the first domestic version.

    2) Even this vastly downgraded unguided export version of the first model of VA-111 can represent a simply deadly weapon ,without any peer among competitors in the hands of a proficient operator.
    The weapon ,in facts, assure the destruction of the attacked targets in spite of any defensive torpedo counter-measure on board for the simple reason that ,in virtue of its enormous speed ,it can literally proceed toward the computed intercept point in a totally unguided way (therefore totally immune to any soft-kill countermeasure) and still prevent the engaged ship to avoid the impact in any way; also the immensely more advanced and faster guided version can initiate the terminal , completely inertial, engagement phase toward the intercept point far outside the range of any anti-torpedo defensive countermeasure.
    The only real defensive countermeasure against those class of weapons is represented by active anti-torpedo hard-kill defensive systems such as "Paket" ,anyhow with reduced threat's suppression chances; but ,at today ,exactly as for VA-111 torpedo, don't exist any western corresponding to Paket hard kill defensive system. Wink )



    A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.


    Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Dozen of different systems could be used to attempt to engage an enemy submarine .....if detected in first instance and....if detected long enough .
    Several of those systems, wanting only to talk of conventional means, are hundreds of times more efficient than an Sh-60 (used mostly to deploy sonobuoys screens or to remotely investigate a "contact" at a speed of....170-180 km/h Laughing

    Do you know, if you receive a remote contact from a sonobuoys barrier or a bottom MAD sensors or thermo-differential detector or even a distant submarine or ship, two or three RPK-7 "Veter" or 91R1 "Kalibr" going toward the coordinates at more than 1800 km/h or 2400 km/h have several hundreds of times more chances to destroy the detected enemy submarine before the contact go lost.

    Returning to the real range of detection of enemy submarines (outside national sea areas covered by overlapping sensor systems) results obtained by the entire ASW screens of US NAvy CVBGs against even the most outdated foreign conventional submarines -several of which vastly inferior even to export models of first version ok Kilo class - are ......not perfectly encouraging.





    This is a cute photo taken by the......Oberon-class !!! .... HMAS "Onslow" submarine of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Carl Vinson" ,just before executing its simulated "kill" from ....300 yards after having surpassed totally undetected the surface and submarine screen of the CVBG










    This is USS "Enterprise" ,in all its beauty, kindly eternalized by a photo from a German Type 206A












    This instead is a lovely closing salutation ,before the kill, from the much more modern Type 212, SMG "S. Todaro" to the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Theodore Roosevelt" ,just seconds after having engaged also a destroyer of its escort Wink







    And so on with Australian Collin class, Chinese Song class , Dutch Zwaardvis-class etc…..

    With VA-111-E (export version) torpedo any submarine, in the same conditions and operation time, would have been perfectly capable to engage the entire CVBG instead of one or two at maximum, with the absolute certainty ,not only that none of the attacked ships would have been capable to neutralize in any way the menace , but that the immensely reduced time for the target's destruction and the lack of need for any wire guidance wouldn't have conceded to them any window for execute a counter attack on the submarine .


    "seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval".......oh yes, yes, of course. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes



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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:04 pm

    like a boss Cool

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

    Another doubt about russian weapons capability once again destroyed for good Very Happy
    However If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:15 pm

    eridan wrote:Ballistic range is irrelevant here. Missiles for s300 complex were tested in late 80s going over 300 km in pure ballistic profiles. Aim-54 could reach 300 km in a ballistic profile when properly launched but that is an useless figure.

    Those same pages give actual, more useful ranges in practice, up to 160 km for actual antishipping range of actual antishipping variant. Why cling on a figure taken as theoretical maximum of an airframe? It is there black on white, why pick a different set of figures on purpose, figures that are not meant to be interpreted as practical range values?

    It is much more useful to have a missile that will stay below the radar horizon for the whole 300 km of its flight range than one that will have to be fired at 15 km altitude, at mach 1,5, then go into a climb and painfully glide to squeeze out all energy to reach 250 km, leaving no energy for course correction (which may not even be efficient if missile is fyling too high) no energy for end manouvers and overall little chance of doing its mission since it was flying over the radar horizon, in a straight and steady trajectory, and took some 5-6 minutes to do it all, exposing itself to the target and possible interceptors.

    A 1200-1500 kg brahmos-lite stands much better chances of actually completing its mission, and doing it from somewhat longer range.
    The Brahmos will most certainly not be achieving 300km range if it is flying low for the entire flight path.

    Why would the AS variant not be able to do 250km, when the anti-radiation variant can do that much vs smaller targets?
    Mind you these are all export range figures. Would not be shocked in the least that the Russian anti-ship variant can hit past 250km assuming a favorable launch profile.

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