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    Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:22 am

    Has Squal ever been deployed on Russian subs post USSR?

    I believe no.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:36 am

    Why wouldn't it be?

    AFAIK they are successful weapons that are fairly widely deployed.

    Note these are not the HTP powered torpedoes that destroyed the Kursk, AFAIK Shkval torpedoes are not powered by HTP, which is better known as hydrogen peroxide.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:08 pm

    Anybody know what the status is on the Russian Paket-E/NK anti-torpedo defense system?? Question
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:09 pm

    Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:Paket is used on the 20380 operationally.

    That's good, i thought the project was abandoned. Surprised

    Any other ships or just the 20380?
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    TR1

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:32 pm

    22350 is also going to use the Paket.
    Not sure about anything else, but that is quite a lot of ships as is.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:07 am

    Actually I remember discussing the Paket system a while back and the person I was chatting to had concluded that the Paket system had been selected by the Russian Navy as the way forward.

    As far as anti torpedo systems go the Russians had the RBU series of depth charge throwers that launched a range of rocket types in the path of torpedoes including jammers, floating mines, and depth charges in the path of the incoming torpedoes... these rockets could also be used against divers and enemy submarines.

    The problem is that these rocket systems weren't very stealthy as they were not retractable.

    I have seen a ship design drawing I think Austin posted of a light patrol boat that seemed to have a vertical launch system that included small calibre rockets so they might be going to vertical launch alternatives, but I suspect the higher kill ratio of a Paket system against an enemy torpedo has been chosen for its cost effectiveness and stealthiness over the old RBUs.
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    George1

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    Russia to Develop Naval Equivalent of U.S. Aegis Defense System

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:36 pm

    Russia is set to develop a sea-based missile defense program similar to the U.S. Aegis system, a senior defense industry official said on Friday.

    Aegis, designed to intercept ballistic missiles at the post-boost phase and prior to reentry, is part of the U.S. national missile defense strategy.

    “This task has been assigned to [the defense] industry,” said Anatoly Shlemov, head of the state defense contracts department at the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    Aegis analogs are being developed at companies affiliated with PVO Almaz-Antei [an air defense concern],” he said.

    He declined to elaborate citing the classified nature of the topic.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20120831/175538466.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:31 am

    Actually that is not true... AEGIS is a naval based battle management system that takes data from sonar, radar and other sensors and combines them into a subsurface, surface, and air picture to help defend carrier battle groups at sea.

    Only recently has it acquired any ABM capability.

    The Russian Navy equivalent of AEGIS is called Sigma and pretty much does the same thing of combining data from subsurface, sea, land, air and space assets to provide a complete picture of the battlespace and can be used to direct the defence of assets.

    Even the smallest new Russian Corvette is being fitted with Sigma and the standard cruise missile VLS and SAM VLS systems. A tiny Corvette could use data from a carrier 500km away to launch a 400km range SAM at a target 300km away from the Corvette and 200km from the carrier using data from the carriers AWACS aircraft... not many other corvettes have that capacity.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:02 pm

    Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study
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    Viktor

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:10 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Anybody know the status of the naval version of Pantsir-S1?? study

    I believe its in the pipeline.

    Pancir-S1 is for ADS is still in Ashuluk on a testing ground and a new version is about to enter service with new radar.

    Together with Tor-M1-2.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:22 pm

    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.

    I think AshMs like the klub and very long range high calibre torpedos are far more useful than submerged rockets.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:43 pm


    I honestly dont think the shkval is an effective weapon now and wont be in the future due to:
    1. its extremely short range. A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.
    2. Its too noisy and will emmediately uncover the submarines approximate location.



    And anyone here honestly hope that your opinion will be totally shared by US Navy Command and those of its allied nations ,it would be a true dream realized Very Happy
    Unluckily i honestly believe that they share the opinion exactly opposite to yours.....



    1) Shkval-E torpedo offered on international market is not only a vastly downgraded version of the first model of VA-111 (capable moreover to hit only surface units ) but also show an immensely simplified propulsion section just to prevent anyone to obtain ,from samples of this export version ,any technical information useful for develop, at its own time, a supercavitating torpedo version even only on par with the first domestic version.

    2) Even this vastly downgraded unguided export version of the first model of VA-111 can represent a simply deadly weapon ,without any peer among competitors in the hands of a proficient operator.
    The weapon ,in facts, assure the destruction of the attacked targets in spite of any defensive torpedo counter-measure on board for the simple reason that ,in virtue of its enormous speed ,it can literally proceed toward the computed intercept point in a totally unguided way (therefore totally immune to any soft-kill countermeasure) and still prevent the engaged ship to avoid the impact in any way; also the immensely more advanced and faster guided version can initiate the terminal , completely inertial, engagement phase toward the intercept point far outside the range of any anti-torpedo defensive countermeasure.
    The only real defensive countermeasure against those class of weapons is represented by active anti-torpedo hard-kill defensive systems such as "Paket" ,anyhow with reduced threat's suppression chances; but ,at today ,exactly as for VA-111 torpedo, don't exist any western corresponding to Paket hard kill defensive system. Wink )



    A seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval.


    Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Dozen of different systems could be used to attempt to engage an enemy submarine .....if detected in first instance and....if detected long enough .
    Several of those systems, wanting only to talk of conventional means, are hundreds of times more efficient than an Sh-60 (used mostly to deploy sonobuoys screens or to remotely investigate a "contact" at a speed of....170-180 km/h Laughing

    Do you know, if you receive a remote contact from a sonobuoys barrier or a bottom MAD sensors or thermo-differential detector or even a distant submarine or ship, two or three RPK-7 "Veter" or 91R1 "Kalibr" going toward the coordinates at more than 1800 km/h or 2400 km/h have several hundreds of times more chances to destroy the detected enemy submarine before the contact go lost.

    Returning to the real range of detection of enemy submarines (outside national sea areas covered by overlapping sensor systems) results obtained by the entire ASW screens of US NAvy CVBGs against even the most outdated foreign conventional submarines -several of which vastly inferior even to export models of first version ok Kilo class - are ......not perfectly encouraging.





    This is a cute photo taken by the......Oberon-class !!! .... HMAS "Onslow" submarine of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Carl Vinson" ,just before executing its simulated "kill" from ....300 yards after having surpassed totally undetected the surface and submarine screen of the CVBG










    This is USS "Enterprise" ,in all its beauty, kindly eternalized by a photo from a German Type 206A












    This instead is a lovely closing salutation ,before the kill, from the much more modern Type 212, SMG "S. Todaro" to the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS "Theodore Roosevelt" ,just seconds after having engaged also a destroyer of its escort Wink







    And so on with Australian Collin class, Chinese Song class , Dutch Zwaardvis-class etc…..

    With VA-111-E (export version) torpedo any submarine, in the same conditions and operation time, would have been perfectly capable to engage the entire CVBG instead of one or two at maximum, with the absolute certainty ,not only that none of the attacked ships would have been capable to neutralize in any way the menace , but that the immensely reduced time for the target's destruction and the lack of need for any wire guidance wouldn't have conceded to them any window for execute a counter attack on the submarine .


    "seahawk helicopter would destroy the submarine long before its in range to fire the shkval".......oh yes, yes, of course. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:04 pm

    like a boss Cool
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

    Another doubt about russian weapons capability once again destroyed for good Very Happy
    However If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:18 pm




    If an oliver perry FFG, P-3 orion, etc. do eventually locate a soviet submarine(lets say schuka-1 for example)and release the AS torps what kinds of countermeasures do the sovietsailors have at their diposal? Will we see the paket in the yasen and lada class?


    Paket ?

    Likely you have completely lost mine point in calling Paket hard kill defensive system in the argumentation : Paket is required for neutralize SUPERCAVITATING torpedo, with speed in exceeds of 220 kn, against which neither maneuvering, neither soft kill countermeasures can achieve any effect.
    At today a pr. 971 would never have the problem to confront a supercavitating torpedo for the simple reason that no "enemy" Navy has any of them in theirs inventory.

    Returning to your question, i find it very strange because, by now, is a commonly accepted fact that, on average, Russian nuclear submarine's survivability is MUCH, MUCH GREATER than all theirs western counterparts.

    The reasons contributing to that are several ,among which:


    1) Significantly higher depth limit
    2) Significantly higher speed and maneuverability
    3) Double hull construction
    4) Employment of higher yield steel ( AK-29 and Ak-32 steel since plain Cold War against the HY-60 and 80 used by US Very Happy )
    5) Extensive employment of titanium/titanium alloys
    6) Much greater reserve buoyancy
    7) Higher compartmentalization
    Cool Significantly lower magnetic signature
    9) Superior level of automation and systems redundancy
    10)Greater propulsion reactor's density (reduced chance of hit and of critical propulsion failure)

    If we talk of the Akula class named in your question, we must add to what up said also:

    1) Presence of the unique -not foreign analogues- MG-74/74M or MG-104 multispectral programmable decoy, capable to perfectly mimic submarine signatures, movements and behavior for more than an hour !!
    2) Hydrodynamics polymers delivering systems (to greatly enhances ,momentarily, submarine outer hull's hydrodynamics coefficient so to avoid enemy torpedo eventually not seduced/outranged)


    Just to provide a measure of the difficulty to hit a submarine proceding at high speed and great depth, is sufficient to remember that an APR-3/3M rocket propelled torpedo (also here we talk of a weapon with absolutely not western analogue) used also in anti-submarine variant of "Kaliber" missile, with a terminal engagement speed of about 100 knot ,about 2 times and half the speed of a Mk-46 torpedo..., and with significantly more powerful warhead than Mk-46 too, can engage targets with a maximum speed of 43 knot when this target proceed at depth greater than 290 m(naturally at the grow of the depth the Pk decrease accordingly)


    But all of what said obviously make no difference for the US, for no other reason that the unique nations it attack (in big NATO coalitions ,always enjoying crushing numerical advantage and ,very often, only after years of insulating international embargo) are only immensely inferior ones equipped with few export versions of weapon systems 30-35 years older. Razz Razz




    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:52 pm



    Next generation -5th- torpedo "Ломонос" and new generation of anti-torpoedo countermeasure МГ-124 "Бериллий" to be introduced within four years ; other programs in advancement too.



    http://www.almaz.info/3124.html



    Very likely the introduction of Pr. 885M, improved Yasen class, will follow the state test acceptance of those new generation weapons and defensive systems.



    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:04 pm

    Nice Post Mindstorm , Was missing you in action for some time , Welcome back

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:59 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    2) Hydrodynamics polymers delivering systems (to greatly enhances ,momentarily, submarine outer hull's hydrodynamics coefficient so to avoid enemy torpedo eventually not seduced/outranged)

    Those polymers system were known to be in development and Norman Polmar has hinted at it in this book but these systems were never operationalised on any submarine most certainly on Schuka/Akula class for sure.


    I should add here though Soviet/Russian submarine has many qualities that were non appreciated by Western Defence Journal types but professional in US who were not biased did appreciate qualities that russian submarine had lik greater depth , speed , energy , non-acoustic sensors.

    Most if the weakness in these areas where over come by west with Sea Wolf and Virginia class submarine which had similar depth , greater speed and other qualities that Soviet submarine enjoyed.

    Acoustically Speaking Akula class were equal or even superior to LA class and other western SSN but Sea Wolf and Virginia were acoustically far superior specially at high speed.

    Russia would come on par with most modern US submarine with Yasen class and perhaps Yasen-M might even give it some advantage acoustically speaking against most modern Western SSN.

    Ofcourse if the entire Zircon-S and 5th gen torpedo program is sucessful then 885M will be a different beast.
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    TR1

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    Paket anti-torpedo hard kill system

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:41 pm

    Learn something new every day - the Paket apparently is the only anti-torpedo hard kill system that uses its own torpedoes to hit incoming targets, in service anywhere in the world.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:35 am

    But that can't be right... the super sophisticated western navies have everything and the Russian and Soviet Navies had nothing.

    For decades the Soviets/Russians have had anti torpedo capability with their RBU depth charge launcher systems specifically designed for anti torpedo use. Now they are adopting the PAKET to the same role so they will have even better performance in terms of anti torpedo protection.... ho hum. russia

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Hachimoto on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:08 am

    @TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:18 pm


    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?


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    NickM

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  NickM on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:@TR1 Can you post some information about this anti-torpedo system specially the characteristic you mentioned please ?

    The the AN/WSQ-11 Surface Ship Torpedo Defense System on board US ships can detect any type of torpedos . A combination of Tripwire DCL , The hard-kill Anti-Torpedo Torpedo , SLQ-25A can destroy any incoming torpedo .

    Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    Austin

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    Re: Naval Weapon Systems & Technology

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:47 pm

    NickM wrote:Not to mention the Aegis Combat system that can nullify any incoming cruise missiles . No other country has anything remotely close to the Aegis and third world countries like China & India are at least a generation behind.

    US cruisers , destroyers are therefore immune to any missile or torpedo threats.

    lol! lol! Laughing Laughing

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