Il-112V/Il-212 light military transport

GarryB wrote:... because those AN-26s and Yak-40s and L-410s are not getting any younger....

But the L-410s are manufactured in Russia now.

A source announced the continuation of flight tests of the Il-112V, 18.08.2021.

Source: Il-112V tests will continue on the third and fourth prototypes.

MOSCOW, August 18 - RIA Novosti . The flight test program of the Il-112V light military transport aircraft will continue, despite the plane crash in the Moscow region, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

"Currently, the second prototype of the Il-112V is undergoing strength tests at the stand, the third and fourth prototypes will be connected to flights. The third and fourth prototypes are expected to take off to continue flight tests next summer," the source said.

https://ria.ru/20210818/il-112v-1746159545.html

The plane looks great. Just build new engines.

The air force will never accept it as such anyway. An engine that burns like that in the air is a big no for any client.

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
That same engine is supposed to be used on Il-114 which is a civilian airliner so that's a bigger problem than it looks

The engines are different. The Il-112B uses a forced version of the engine from the Il-114-300

That is likely the source of the problem. Either build the right sized engines or go home. Forcing is a cost saving hack.

Meanwhile Ukr-tards are masturbating themselves silly with this tragedy. God I hate these losers.

Flight recorders found after Il-112V military transport plane’s crash in Moscow Region, 18.07.2021.

According to the source, the deciphering process will begin in a special laboratory on August 19.

MOSCOW, August 18. /TASS/. Two flight recorders were found at the crash site of an Il-112V military transport plane in the Moscow Region, according to law-enforcement agencies who spoke to TASS on Wednesday.

"Two black boxes, the flight data and voice recorders, have been found. They are damaged and slightly burnt but can be deciphered, according to preliminary data," a spokesman said.

The deciphering process will begin in a special laboratory on August 19, he confirmed.

On August 17, an Il-112V military transport plane crashed during a training flight. The disaster occurred just 1.5 km from Kubinka airfield outside Moscow. The crew of three, including flight commander, merited test pilot and Hero of Russia Nikolai Kuimov, died. A criminal case has been opened on charges of violating flight safety and aircraft operation rules (part 3, article 263 of Russia’s Criminal Code).

https://tass.com/emergencies/1327437

Source: Il-112V fell into a tailspin before the crash due to a broken feather vane system. 

An Il-112V military transport plane went into a tailspin before crashing in the Moscow region due to a broken propeller vane system. This was reported to TASS on Wednesday in the law enforcement agencies.

"After the plane's engine caught fire, the right engine's feather vane system failed, a negative thrust occurred, the car spun and it fell into a tailspin" – the source said. He explained that the activated propeller vane system could have allowed the plane to land, since the burning engine would have turned off.

"The plane was going strictly along the glide path of landing at the Kubinka airfield, the wind course was counter," the law enforcement agencies reported. According to the source, 42 seconds passed from the moment the engine caught fire to the collision with the ground. "The plane burned in the air for 30 seconds" – the source said.

Earlier, the source said that the cause of the plane crash could be a surge, destruction of the engine, ingress of its elements into the fuel system and, as a result, a fire. The emergency services clarified that the cause of the fire in the second (right) engine could be the ingress of oil into the combustion chamber.

Source: 

kvs wrote:

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
That same engine is supposed to be used on Il-114 which is a civilian airliner so that's a bigger problem than it looks

The engines are different. The Il-112B uses a forced version of the engine from the Il-114-300

That is likely the source of the problem.   Either build the right sized engines or go home.   Forcing is a cost saving hack.

Meanwhile Ukr-tards are masturbating themselves silly with this tragedy.   God I hate these losers.

Throwing stones and living in glass houses. Everyone has crashes. Usually when Russia has a bad accident, it is not long before a Nato has a crash of their own.

JohninMK wrote:It came down quite suddenly. Maybe the pilots, recognising their fate, rather than bringing it down in a residential area, spotted a clear space and went for instant death rather than burning alive in a wreck whilst saving other's lives. However it happened it was a sad end. RIP.

Is it possible to cut fuel supply to turboprops BTW? If yes, does it help with slowing the fire from spreadin to the fuel tanks?

Its really worrying that russia cannot produce larger turboprop engines. Putting new turboprop engines would take 10-15 more years which is unfeasible. Is there a way for Russia to buy chinese light transport aircraft, or just their copies of the ivchenko Al-20 which is more powerful than the tv3-117?

limb wrote:

JohninMK wrote:It came down quite suddenly. Maybe the pilots, recognising their fate, rather than bringing it down in a residential area, spotted a clear space and went for instant death rather than burning alive in a wreck whilst saving other's lives. However it happened it was a sad end. RIP.

Is it possible to cut fuel supply to turboprops BTW? If yes, does it help with slowing the fire from spreadin to the fuel tanks?

Its really worrying that russia  cannot produce larger turboprop engines. Putting new turboprop engines would take 10-15 more years which is unfeasible. Is there a way for Russia to buy chinese light transport aircraft, or just their copies of the ivchenko Al-20 which is more powerful than the tv3-117?

Wow, another dumb post by limb.

Now on ignore list.

miketheterrible wrote:

limb wrote:

JohninMK wrote:It came down quite suddenly. Maybe the pilots, recognising their fate, rather than bringing it down in a residential area, spotted a clear space and went for instant death rather than burning alive in a wreck whilst saving other's lives. However it happened it was a sad end. RIP.

Is it possible to cut fuel supply to turboprops BTW? If yes, does it help with slowing the fire from spreadin to the fuel tanks?

Its really worrying that russia  cannot produce larger turboprop engines. Putting new turboprop engines would take 10-15 more years which is unfeasible. Is there a way for Russia to buy chinese light transport aircraft, or just their copies of the ivchenko Al-20 which is more powerful than the tv3-117?

Wow, another dumb post by limb.

Now on ignore list.

It seems like the turth is too painful.

Show me a russian turboprop engine in development in the same class as the rolls royce  AE2100 for example.  

What options do the Russians have, oh genius procurment planner? Keep using obvious forced TV3-117 versions? Magically poofing a 4000-5000hp modern indigenous turboprop engine before 2030?


Engines take a lot of time to develop and produce from scratch, even simple ones with proven technology.  Also the PD-8 has been in development since the early 2010s from the PD-14 and  still hasnt been tested in flight. Even an enlarged modification of the TV3-117  would take a substantial amount to design and test, given it takes a long time to get the PD-8, PD-18 and PD-35 ready. That's not counting international safety certification time, though this doesnt apply to military aircraft.

Good thing light transports are a lower priority, and combat aircraft development is going to plan.

A safety feature during engine fires is to cut off hydraulic and fuel lines to the engine that is burning to cut the fuel to the fire so to speak.

Why didnt the pilots cut the fuel supply?

No point going back to old obsolete crap... spending money going backwards to something they wont produce is money wasted...

By that logic the motorsich M55 and M70 are also obsolete crap, but theyre modernized by saturn to be technologically competitive again.

limb wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

limb wrote:

JohninMK wrote:It came down quite suddenly. Maybe the pilots, recognising their fate, rather than bringing it down in a residential area, spotted a clear space and went for instant death rather than burning alive in a wreck whilst saving other's lives. However it happened it was a sad end. RIP.

Is it possible to cut fuel supply to turboprops BTW? If yes, does it help with slowing the fire from spreadin to the fuel tanks?

Its really worrying that russia  cannot produce larger turboprop engines. Putting new turboprop engines would take 10-15 more years which is unfeasible. Is there a way for Russia to buy chinese light transport aircraft, or just their copies of the ivchenko Al-20 which is more powerful than the tv3-117?

Wow, another dumb post by limb.

Now on ignore list.

It seems like the turth is too painful.

Show me a russian turboprop engine in development in the same class as the rolls royce  AE2100 for example.  

What options do the Russians have, oh genius procurment planner? Keep using obvious forced TV3-117 versions? Magically poofing a 4000-5000hp modern indigenous turboprop engine before 2030?

It is clear that you do not read this thread before posting.

A couple of pages ago, in the last post of page 16 (post 400) I posted exactly about that.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
By the way, Russia is working on engines for both aircrafts and helicopters of 4000-5000 hp (similar power as the g222/c27J and C130 engines).

https://en.topcor.ru/15348-rossija-gotovitsja-k-sozdaniju-aviadvigatelja-novogo-pokolenija-pdv-4000.html

limb wrote:
Is it possible to cut fuel supply to turboprops BTW? If yes, does it help with slowing the fire from spreadin to the fuel tanks?

It is possible to cut, and it does help with slowing the fire spread. Though the fire wasn't the main problem here. It's the feathering system that is.

limb wrote:
Its really worrying that russia cannot produce larger turboprop engines. Putting new turboprop engines would take 10-15 more years which is unfeasible. Is there a way for Russia to buy chinese light transport aircraft, or just their copies of the ivchenko Al-20 which is more powerful than the tv3-117?

It's not that they can't produce turboprop (NK-12 for example). It's whether an engine like that would fit their need or not. The point with prop engine is that theoretically it has the highest efficiency due to the bypass ratio and all that, but it's only suitable for short range flight profile and thus only medium-low class transporter. They already have the turbofan-powered IL-76 and An-124 and the developing Slon to fill medium-heavy classes. For low-class transporter, they are developing this Klimov engine after all.

limb wrote:
Show me a russian turboprop engine in development in the same class as the rolls royce  AE2100 for example.  

Answered above

limb wrote:
Engines take a lot of time to develop and produce from scratch, even simple ones with proven technology.  Also the PD-8 has been in development since the early 2010s from the PD-14 and  still hasnt been tested in flight. Even an enlarged modification of the TV3-117  would take a substantial amount to design and test, given it takes a long time to get the PD-8, PD-18 and PD-35 ready. That's not counting international safety certification time, though this doesnt apply to military aircraft.

Good thing light transports are a lower priority, and combat aircraft development is going to plan.

I don't really know where you got the PD-8 development started in early 2010s. Also, you are saying that the PD-14, PD-8 and PD-35 are only modifications of each other. But the thing is, they're not. That's like saying the RD-180 is only a 2 combustion chamber version of RD-170. They are very different. But yes, long dev time indeed

Why didnt the pilots cut the fuel supply?

How do you know he didn't. Cutting the fuel supply does not stop the fire entirely. Also fire wasn't the main problem.

By that logic the motorsich M55 and M70 are also obsolete crap, but theyre modernized by saturn to be technologically competitive again.

what are m55 and m70 engines?

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

limb wrote:

Show me a russian turboprop engine in development in the same class as the rolls royce  AE2100 for example.  

What options do the Russians have, oh genius procurment planner? Keep using obvious forced TV3-117 versions? Magically poofing a 4000-5000hp modern indigenous turboprop engine before 2030?

It is clear that you do not read this thread before posting.

A couple of pages ago, in the last post of page 16 (post 400) I posted exactly about that.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
By the way, Russia is working on engines for both aircrafts and helicopters of 4000-5000 hp (similar power as the g222/c27J and C130 engines).

https://en.topcor.ru/15348-rossija-gotovitsja-k-sozdaniju-aviadvigatelja-novogo-pokolenija-pdv-4000.html

Note, according to this article of August 2020, the plan would be to have the first prototype ready by 2025. That means then probably at least a couple of years of ground tests before it can be put on an airplane.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/9271731

Concerning tv7-117 the power is more than enought for the size and payload of the aircraft.

According to the published data, the c27J max takeoff weight is about one third more than the il112v (circa 32000 kg  for the c27J Vs about 21000 kg) and a max payload of about 11 tons Vs a payload of about 5 tons of the c27J.

Furthermore, the power difference is not that big
The Rolls-Royce AE2100-D2A turboprop on the C27J is rated at 3,458 kW (4,637 hp), while the Klimov TV7-117ST turboprop of the il112v is rated at 2,610 kW (3,500 hp).

Note: the engines on the easa c295 are actually less powerful than the one on the il112v (about 2000 KW (circa 2700 hp).

The TV7-217 engines (and maybe the propeller pitch change system) possibly need some important changes if there are safety issues, but this does not mean that they are not powerful enough.

The black boxes of the Il-112V that crashed in the Moscow region were deciphered. The information is not subject to disclosure, the law enforcement agencies told us.

Earlier, the source said that both black boxes were burned and damaged, but specialists managed to read the information in the special laboratory.

Source: TASS Telegram channel

I think engine/prop going into reverse pitch is a less bad fault than if the wing controls had got damaged by the relatively short fire.
It was clear something caused a sudden loss of control.
Also notable that they were on final landing approach -> speed will have been down.
Twin prop planes get designed with a min-safe speed where the tail is able to cope with asymmetric thrust from an engine failure.
Having not just a failure but the engine going into reverse would be unlikely to be recoverable at low speeds.

hoom wrote:I think engine/prop going into reverse pitch is a less bad fault than if the wing controls had got damaged by the relatively short fire.
It was clear something caused a sudden loss of control.
Also notable that they were on final landing approach -> speed will have been down.
Twin prop planes get designed with a min-safe speed where the tail is able to cope with asymmetric thrust from an engine failure.
Having not just a failure but the engine going into reverse would be unlikely to be recoverable at low speeds.

Agreed. One engine tilting into reverse thrust near landing would be catastrophic. It makes sense now when seeing the footage. Wonder what that designer earlier on in this thread was so upset about? Has this engine had issues?

If it is a control issue such as an untimely thrust reversal, it could be a software problem in the FADEC module that they implemented for this aircraft. Due to the specific environmental and loading conditions of a military transport, they can't just re-use the one developed for the 114.

It reminds me of a similar fatal accident of the Airbus A400 Atlas a few years back. That plane's engines went on full idle in mid air due to an engine control firmware problem. And I think that was after it went into serial production, not during testing.

after it went into serial production, not during testing

Jebus

hoom wrote:

after it went into serial production, not during testing

Jebus

https://web.archive.org/web/20150511221623/http://airbusdefenceandspace.com/newsroom/news-and-features/9th-may-2015-18-30-accident-a400m-in-seville

Airbus Defence andSpace confirms that an A400M aircraft has been involved in an accident near Sevilla (Spain) Airport on May 09, 2015 around 13:00 local time.

The aircraft with the serial number MSN023, was making the first production flight and had departed from Sevilla Airport at 12:45 pm local time.
(...)

MSN023 was foreseen to be the third aircraft to be delivered to the Turkish customer. The formal delivery was scheduled for June 2015.

According to some of the public available data, the A400M programme had been plagued by persistent quality issues, both in the final assembly facility in Spain, and in Germany.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2015/06/03/airbus-says-3-of-4-engines-failed-in-spain-a400m-crash/

3 of the engines stopped, possibly due to control systems failures

Yeah that's very smart to do like NATO. Their new planes crash so Russia should build planes that crash too.

An open letter from the former and current leaders of PJSC "Aviation Complex im. S.V. Ilyushin "

bmpd
August 21st, 1:06

As the newspaper "Military Industrial Courier" writes , on August 17, 2021, the first prototype of the newest light military transport aircraft Il-112V, flying from Zhukovsky to Kubinka near Moscow, crashed near the village of Nikolskoye. The entire crew was killed.

The Il-112V aircraft has been created since 2003, but made its first flight only on March 30, 2019. Two years before the first flight, the Director General of the Aviation Complex. Sergei Ilyushin became Alexey Rogozin, the son of the head of Roscosmos Dmitry Rogozin. A number of specialists admitted that it was Alexei Rogozin's team that made a decisive contribution to the execution of work on the Il-112V, but there were also those who, on the contrary, linked the failures of recent years with his name.

Rogozin himself resigned from Ilyushin's company almost immediately after the first flight, Yuri Grudinin became the new general director, who was removed from office a year later and is currently under investigation. Landing in Zhukovsky after the flight from Voronezh of the first prototype of the Il-112V military transport aircraft (serial number 01-01, tail number "01 yellow", registration number RF-41400), 08/13/2021. Four days later, this aircraft crashed during a flight from Zhukovsky to the Kubinka airfield (c) United Aircraft Corporation PJSC


Flight tests of the Il-112V resumed only in March 2021, and a few months later a tragedy occurred near Kubinka. Nevertheless, there were again those who decided to use the tragedy to resolve political issues. So, the well-known journalist Andrei Karaulov published a video, blaming all the blame for the plane crash on Alexei Rogozin.




The editorial office of the newspaper "Military Industrial Courier" received an open letter from current and former employees of the Aviation Complex. S.V. Ilyushin. We publish it in full.


To the address of the Network edition "karaulovlife" (Certificate of registration El No. FS77-76011)

Karaulov A.The .


Open letter

Current and former employees of the Aviation Complex named after V.I. S.V. Ilyushin (PJSC "Il") and the Voronezh Joint-Stock Aircraft Building Company (PJSC "VASO"). A few days ago, an Il-112V plane crash occurred in Kubinka near Moscow, which claimed the lives of three of our comrades: Honored Test Pilot Hero of Russia Nikolai Dmitrievich Kuimov, Honored Test Pilot, Commander of the Order of Courage Dmitry Alexandrovich Komarov and onboard test engineer 1 class Nikolai Khludeev. Each of us and all Russian aviation suffered an irreparable loss.

The Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation has created a commission that must give an answer about the reasons and circumstances of the incident. However, on the day of the catastrophe, two videos were released for a wide audience on your YouTube channel, in which you put “responsibility for the death of the plane and the death of people” on one person - the former general director of PJSC “Il” Alexei Dmitrievich Rogozin. We declare that the information you are distributing discredits not only his honor and dignity, but discredits the work of thousands of specialists who worked at PJSC "IL", PJSC "VASO" and other enterprises of the industry.

You deliberately kept silent that Rogozin Alexey Dmitrievich was the CEO of PJSC Il only from 2017 to 2019 (after him another manager was replaced, and before him, since 2014, four more CEOs). With his leadership and with his direct participation, the Il-112V aircraft was able to successfully complete the first long-awaited flight on March 30, 2019. The flight was the result of the work of a large team and was carried out in full compliance with the requirements of the legislation, as evidenced by, among other things, the decisions of the chief designers, the flight test service of PJSC "IL", as well as the positive opinion of military representatives and all experts of the experimental aviation methodological council on flight tests at LII them. M.M. Gromov. The second flight of the Il-112V was completed without his participation exactly two years later - on March 30, 2021.

Almost all of your other statements are false, including that after the first flight, Hero of Russia Nikolai Dmitrievich Kuimov, “when he landed 40 minutes later, danced around the plane with happiness that he returned alive”.

Your speeches humiliate the people who worked on the Il-112V project, and may create a misconception among the relatives of the victims about the causes of the plane crash.

We suggest that you stop using the tragedy for personal or political purposes and voluntarily refute the information you have published. Otherwise, we reserve the right to apply to the court and the Prosecutor's Office with claims for defamation and protection of honor and dignity.

The letter was signed by:

Senatov S.D. - Chairman of the Primary Trade Union Organization "IL".
Buyakov S.F., in the past - chief designer, director of the branch of PJSC "IL" in Voronezh.
Irinarkhov V.M. - Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation.
Komarov A.N. - Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation, Hero of Russia.
I.R. Zakirov - Honored Test Pilot of the USSR, Hero of Russia.
AI Suponetsky, formerly head of the final assembly shop at PJSC VASO.
Yurasov S.P., formerly Managing Director of PJSC VASO.
Isaenko S.V., in the past - Executive Director of PJSC "VASO"
Anokhin AA, head of the branch of PJSC "IL" in Voronezh, in the past - technical director of PJSC "VASO".
PG Cherenkov, formerly First Deputy General Director of PJSC Il.
AI Prokofiev, Director, in the past - Deputy Chief Designer of PJSC "IL".
AA Talanov, in the past - Director of the Design and Technical Complex of PJSC "IL".
A. Rybin, formerly Deputy General Director of PJSC Il for Production.
Kakushadze T.R., in the past - Marketing Director of PJSC "Il".
Alekseev M.A., chief designer of the Il-114-300.
Arishin A.V., head of the ROC of the IL-76/78 program of PJSC Il.
Shuraev RS, head of the resource provision department of PJSC "Il".
IM Antonov, head of the department for managing the electronic description of the product, PJSC "IL".
DA Pavlyuchenkova, Process Engineer, Workshop for Mechanical Processing of Parts and Aggregates, PJSC Il.
Khasanov Baurzhan - foreman of the aggregate assembly shop of PJSC "Il".
VI Semenov, Director of UAC - Transport Aircraft.
V.R.Dukhonkin, formerly head of the department for the development of youth policy and human resources at PJSC "IL".
Bevzyuk I.A., in the past - Deputy General Director of PJSC "IL" for programs.
Bykov A.I., formerly director of the Il-112V program.


https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4375625.html

Before some notable forum members get spooked, we are talking about a different Rogozin here, right?