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    Il-112V/Il-212 light military transport

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Il-112V/Il-212 light military transport  - Page 24 Empty Re: Il-112V/Il-212 light military transport

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 15, 2023 6:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Essentially the Il-212 would be a 12-15 ton payload capacity aircraft that can probably fly rather further than the An-26 or An-72 could manage.

    If a lighter model is deemed useful then a later turboprop in the 4-5K hp range could be used to complete the Il-112 design to fully replace it properly.

    The irony is that you guys should be happy because an Il-112 with PD-8 jet engines in the over wing position gives you everything you were complaining that the Il-112 didn't deliver and could only get from foreign types.

    Will they even want an An-26 replacement after getting the Il-212?

    Probably they will still want an An-26 replacement, because the aircrafts would be in different class (for payload, range and speed).

    It would be a similar difference between the il-76 and the An-22 (or an eventual il-106) and between the An-22/il106 and the An-124.

    In the occasions when you just need the payload and range capabilities of a an-26 and the desired cargo fits inside of the cargo bay of the smaller airplane it would be cheaper to use an aircraft of the size of a an-26 (like a military cargo version of a TVRS-44 Ladoga or the iranian derivative of the an-140) than to use a il-212.

    This is especially true, since a military cargo version of the Ladoga with rear ramp could be ready before 2027.

    By the way, I am curious to know if there will be  more commonalties between the nacelle and installation of the PD8 engine in the Be-200 and in the il-212.

    As a comparison, the over the wing installation of the D-436 engine of the Be-200 is quite different from the one of the D-36 engine if the An-72/74

    As far as the engine for the an-26 replacement, a 4000-5000 hp engine (like the planned PDV-4000) is not needed for such aircraft (but of course it would be needed and useful for other platforms).

    The An-26 had only a 2800 hp engine, and both the TVRS-44 Ladoga and the an-140 have engines with about 2400 hp (TV7-117CT-02 for the Ladoga and TV3-117 for the An-140).
    The il-112 needed much more power because it was considerably "fattier" than either airplane and than the An-26.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:06 am

    AFAIK Il-214 was a design of transport plane offered to cooperation with India. The project didnt kick off after all.  il-214 was to be powered by PD-14.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between il-214 concept and il-212 press releases were talking about?



    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-667.html


    @GARRYB

    I dont think Russian AF can wait next 15.20 years to replace aged An-26 fleet. Perhaps transport version of TVRS will be the only way?


    http://www.take-off.ru/item/4450-uzga-predstavlyaet-rampovuyu-gruzovuyu-versiyu-tvrs-44
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:52 am

    Il-214 is supposed to use the PD-14M engine. Over twice the power of the PD-8 engine.
    It is going to be an aircraft about the size of an An-12 or C-130 Hercules. A competitor to the KC-390.

    This Il-212 aircraft is going to be much smaller in comparison. Roughly the size of an An-72 or C-27J.

    As for the TVRS-44 I am unsure of the future of an aircraft which is based on a foreign aircraft design, the Czech L-410, with an unproven engine like TV7-117ST. Might as well put the An-140T back into production at that point. And that is a disaster of a plane. This is not that far fetched since it was produced at Aviakor until not that long ago and is still a program in progress at Iran.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:30 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:AFAIK Il-214 was a design of transport plane offered to cooperation with India. The project didnt kick off after all.  il-214 was to be powered by PD-14.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between il-214 concept and il-212 press releases were talking about?

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-667.html


    The il-214 was the previous designation of the il-276, at the time when it was proposed as a joint effort to India. It was supposed to share many parts with the il-76 and use  either PS90 or PD-14M engines, but its proposed performance on the paper (payload and range) were very lacklustre. Much worse than the KC-390 (and to the point that it would be almost better to ask the Chineses to help resetting a production of a modernise An-12 (since they still produce it under another name)

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    I dont think Russian AF can wait next 15.20 years to replace aged An-26 fleet.  Perhaps transport version of  TVRS will be the only way?

    http://www.take-off.ru/item/4450-uzga-predstavlyaet-rampovuyu-gruzovuyu-versiyu-tvrs-44


    Very interesting link, I wrote many times about a military cargo version of the TVRS-44 with rear ramp, considering it an almost natural derivative, like the An-26 from the An-24, nice to see that it was already officially proposed.

    lancelot wrote:
    As for the TVRS-44 I am unsure of the future of an aircraft which is based on a foreign aircraft design, the Czech L-410, with an unproven engine like TV7-117ST. Might as well put the An-140T back into production at that point. And that is a disaster of a plane. This is not that far fetched since it was produced at Aviakor until not that long ago and is still a program in progress

    The TVRS-44 is a derivative design from the L-610 prototype, but with many new changes, and it shares also some solutions with the An-140, with which it shares also the fuselage width.
    Aviakor also built the fuselage of the first two protypes of the TVRS-44, due to their experience with the An-140.

    The An-140T (with rear ramp) was never fully developed or produced, unless we consider the Iranian derivative which was presented a few months ago.

    Making the An-140T would require the same effort as an eventual TVRS -44T (with rear ramp).
    I just hope they will give it a better name :p

    As far as the TV7-117 engine, they need to fix it anyway also for the il-114 passenger aircraft, which is really needed.

    Furthermore, since in the TVRS-44 it will be only needed in the derated version (2400 for the passenger aircraft or 2600 hp for the military transport derivative), it should not be a problem.

    The issue with the TV7-117 was that its power could not be further increased to meet the needs of the much fattier il-112v and that it had some dangerous failure modes that caused the tragedy with the crash of the il-112V prototype.

    I am sure that the those safety issues have been corrected (or are being corrected right now).

    Otherwise the TV3-117 engine of the An-140 could be used as a fall back option

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:56 am

    Probably they will still want an An-26 replacement, because the aircrafts would be in different class (for payload, range and speed).

    The point is that a heavier plane does not need to be fully loaded so an An-72 with 10 ton payload capacity can do the job of an An-26, and in fact it could probably do a better job in the sense that a 5 ton payload delivered in an An-72 could be taken rather further and rather faster than could be managed with an An-26.

    This Il-212 they are talking about should be even better with perhaps the flight range to take 5 ton payloads over much bigger distances than the An-26 could manage.... perhaps 3,000km range flights with 5 ton payloads which actually might make it rather better than the lighter aircraft.

    Remember the body of the Il-212 is the body of the Il-112 so it can carry bulkier loads the An-26 can't carry already but now it will carry much more much further and also much faster.

    If they decide they do need a specialised An-26 replacement well they have the Il-112 design, so when engines that are powerful enough for a turboprop version are ready they can fill that gap then.

    I would say over time when a suitable engine is ready the Il-112 is ready to go and an above wing mounted PD-8 powered Il-212 actually makes good sense... lots of excess power allowing 5 ton payloads to be delivered to shorter airstrips with problems with foreign object ingestion basically eliminated... military airfields can have all the vehicles needed to service engines mounted that high... the same vehicle could be used by the Navy and Emercom for their A-42s and Be-200s... which also have above wing mounted engines.

    But this is for the military so I would think the Baikal would replace the An-2 for parachute training and light transport to rough airstrips and the Il-114 and Il-212 would fill the gap of the withdrawn An-26 and An-72s... they just need an An-12 replacement which I think could be a combination of Il-276 and Tu-330s now the Tu-214s are being produced in decent numbers.

    It would be a similar difference between the il-76 and the An-22 (or an eventual il-106) and between the An-22/il106 and the An-124.

    Except of the two a 12-15 ton payload Il-212 that keeps the Il-112 body means you can probably fit vehicles in it... the extra 6-10 ton capacity the new model has means a much wider range of more useful vehicles could be carried which the An-26 was not really much good for.

    The distances in Russia also means heavier longer ranged aircraft can be used to take lighter payloads greater distances, and it upper wing mounted engines make it good for rough airstrips and good short takeoff operations.

    I would think they could use the Il-212 for quite some time before they really noticed a lack of a smaller lighter aircraft... eventually a more powerful turboprop engine will become available... they are working on a few different types I think.

    In the occasions when you just need the payload and range capabilities of a an-26 and the desired cargo fits inside of the cargo bay of the smaller airplane it would be cheaper to use an aircraft of the size of a an-26 (like a military cargo version of a TVRS-44 Ladoga or the iranian derivative of the an-140) than to use a il-212.

    I would agree it would be cheaper but how often would that be exactly and is it enough to justify having an extra aircraft type in service?

    They might find the Il-212 does everything the An-26 does but over more useful flight distances and to shorter airfields and it gets it there faster and is able to fly over bad weather instead of through it.

    It might end up costing a little bit more on some trips but with other trips it might work out rather better where double the capacity allows two payloads to be carried in one aircraft, or allows one payload to be carried to the destination in one hop instead of multiple hops because it could take more fuel.

    The extra engine power probably increases the safety margin on short air strips too.

    This is especially true, since a military cargo version of the Ladoga with rear ramp could be ready before 2027.

    But the Ladoga uses the TV7-117ST-02 that the Il-114 was going to be using in exactly the same passenger role for the Armed forces.

    They don't need a replacement for that, it is just cargo for which they prefer a high wing layout for which the Il-112 was intended.

    They inflated the fuselage to allow the loads they wanted to be able to carry, which probably include vehicles, which meant they needed increased engine power and the uprated engines to give it decent performance are not materialising so they are going for a PD-8 jet powered model.

    They don't need a 5 ton cargo version if they have the An-26 passenger replacement in the Il-114.

    As a comparison, the over the wing installation of the D-436 engine of the Be-200 is quite different from the one of the D-36 engine if the An-72/74

    The engine placement on the amphibian aircraft was to use the wing as a barrier to the sea spray so it was actually over the fuselage more than the wing and probably didn't create any benefit in terms of thrust divergence. In comparison the engines on the Il-212 and An-72 will be placed on top of the wing so the trailing wing surfaces deflect the attached exhaust air flow when they are deployed to create downward thrust and a lifting force...

    As far as the engine for the an-26 replacement, a 4000-5000 hp engine (like the planned PDV-4000) is not needed for such aircraft (but of course it would be needed and useful for other platforms).

    The increased internal volume of the Il-112 means higher drag so increased thrust would be a benefit, plus the extra power allowing an increase in payload that could be payload or could be more fuel for better range options would certainly not hurt the design.

    The il-112 needed much more power because it was considerably "fattier" than either airplane and than the An-26.

    It was fatter so it could carry more bulky payloads that the other aircraft you mentioned cannot carry which is why the Il-112 is needed.

    I suspect it is intended to carry some of the new vehicles they have been showing like that small four wheel vehicle carried by a Hip helicopter.

    Such a payload would be useful for a plane able to operate from stretches of road or firm grass.

    AFAIK Il-214 was a design of transport plane offered to cooperation with India.

    It was also called the MTA and was supposed to replace the An-12, but they couldn't agree so the Russians decided to stop it and they were focussing on a scaled down Il-476 to do the job which would create commonality as it would be very compatible with the larger aircraft.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between il-214 concept and il-212 press releases were talking about?

    There is no relation, the Il-212 is an Il-112 with the two small 3,500hp propeller driven engines replaced by two PD-8 turbofans... which is a relatively massive increase in power.

    The new aircraft will have the engines placed above and behind the wing like they are on the An-72 to allow the aircraft to operate from short rough airstrips with reduced risk of sucking in dirt and muck that could damage the engines on takeoff or landing.

    I dont think Russian AF can wait next 15.20 years to replace aged An-26 fleet. Perhaps transport version of TVRS will be the only way?

    The Il-114 is moving ahead just fine AFAIK and it is only the Il-112 cargo plane that has the problem, whose solution appears to have been sorted... it certainly wont take 10 years to beef up the fuel system and the hydraulics and fit a new wing with jet engines on it.

    They might need to revise the undercarriage to allow operations at heavier weights but that is not a huge issue... it is all digital...

    As for the TVRS-44 I am unsure of the future of an aircraft which is based on a foreign aircraft design, the Czech L-410, with an unproven engine like TV7-117ST. Might as well put the An-140T back into production at that point. And that is a disaster of a plane. This is not that far fetched since it was produced at Aviakor until not that long ago and is still a program in progress at Iran.

    I suspect the civilian airlines will be buying the Ladoga simply because it is what they want in a locally made design that is sanction proof and they can't buy foreign aircraft anyway. They might look at the Il-114 but I suspect the Ladoga appears to be more of what they were using before made in Russia.

    The il-214 was the previous designation of the il-276, at the time when it was proposed as a joint effort to India. It was supposed to share many parts with the il-76 and use either PS90 or PD-14M engines, but its proposed performance on the paper (payload and range) were very lacklustre. Much worse than the KC-390 (and to the point that it would be almost better to ask the Chineses to help resetting a production of a modernise An-12 (since they still produce it under another name)

    From an Indian perspective, perhaps, but from a Russian perspective it makes sense for their An-12 replacement to be more like their Il-476 than to be like the old Soviet An-12.

    Very interesting link, I wrote many times about a military cargo version of the TVRS-44 with rear ramp, considering it an almost natural derivative, like the An-26 from the An-24, nice to see that it was already officially proposed.

    Who is going to fund it though... the Russian military have the Il-112 and they are putting jet engines on it to make it an Il-212... they are hardly going to ALSO fund a modification of Ladoga as well.

    As far as the TV7-117 engine, they need to fix it anyway also for the il-114 passenger aircraft, which is really needed.

    There is nothing wrong with the TV7-117 engines... if there was... well guess what... the Ladoga uses the same engine... the difference is that the Ladoga and Il-114 use the standard engine which works fine, rather than the uprated version the Il-112 was trying to use because of its enlarged shape to allow vehicles to be carried.

    Even if you put a rear ramp on a Ladoga the fuselage body is not big enough to take the vehicles they clearly want to carry for which the enlarged Il-112 was designed.

    If you want to enlarge the body then you might as well wait for the Il-212.

    Furthermore, since in the TVRS-44 it will be only needed in the derated version (2400 for the passenger aircraft or 2600 hp for the military transport derivative), it should not be a problem.

    It is a problem because even with a ramp it wont fit the vehicles they want to carry which was the whole reason behind the Il-112 in the first place.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Nov 10, 2023 6:02 am

    Il-112V turns into Il-212 with PD-8 engines
    https://youtu.be/ieO6NN_Tw6c

    So, they don't have an in-production turboprop with enough power for this plane.
    Good luck with this option!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:11 am

    They didn't have an engine of suitable power, they tried to boost the power of an existing engine used in helicopters which would be convenient because those helicopters will be in widespread use so having the same engine in Il-112V and Il-114 and Mi-38 makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately the Il-112V has a larger fuselage and needs more power to get the performance they want.

    The simplest solution is to upgrade the power of the engine but it seems that didn't work to a level of reliable and safe performance levels so they are converting it into a jet... no huge surprise considering they previously had the An-72 which is also a jet which is used in this role and was supposed to replace these other Antonovs too.

    Fitting a new all Russian jet engine is the sensible thing to do for now to get this aircraft ready and into service so those old worn out Antonovs can be withdrawn from service and replaced with something new and modern and safe.

    Having extra power is a good thing.

    In a few years time if other platforms require more powerful turboprop engines they might be able to revive the Il-112V in its current form with a new but more powerful and reliable engine, but I rather suspect the Il-212 will get the job done and the Il-112V wont be needed.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:12 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Even if you put a rear ramp on a Ladoga the fuselage body is not big enough to take the vehicles they clearly want to carry for which the enlarged Il-112 was designed.

    If you want to enlarge the body then you might as well wait for the Il-212.


    Furthermore, since in the TVRS-44 it will be only needed in the derated version (2400 for the passenger aircraft or 2600 hp for the military transport derivative), it should not be a problem.
    It is a problem because even with a ramp it wont fit the vehicles they want to carry which was the whole reason behind the Il-112 in the first place.
    The fuselage of the Ladoga has the same size as the an-140 which is only marginally narrower than the one of the an-26 (albeit quite narrower than the one of the "fatty" il-112).
    With a ramp it can still carry some classes of vehicles. Most vehicles that exceeded this width would have been anyway too heavy for an aircraft with 5 tons payload.

    Of course this will not be a problem for the il-212, since its payload will be most probably above 10 tons.

    What I meant is that a military cargo turboprop with rear ramp of the same size of the an-140 or of the Ladoga can still have its uses.
    Since they are building anyway Ladoga for civilian use, it could be acceptable to produce some more in a military cargo version:
    if Iran managed to do a military cargo version of the an-140 with rear ramp, for sure Russia can do the same, also considering that the Ladoga and the an-140 are sharing some parts and they have the same  fuselage size. Probably they can also obtain from Iran their study and data.

    As far as the more powerful turboprop engines, Russia is also working on the PDV-4000, a study for a new generation turboprop (aircraft engine) and turboshaft (Helicopter engine) with a power between 4000 and 5000 hp (similar to the Boeing C-130 and to the Alenia C-27J engines and a little bit more powerful than the An-12 engines). I have not heard additional news on this engine recently, so possibly it will be delayed due to to other priorities PD-8, PD-8V for the mi-26, PD-35, VK-650, VK-1600, etc

    Such engine could go either to a parallel turboprop aircraft in a similar class to the il-212, in a faster or larger version of the Il-114 passenger turboprop, or even in a potential 4 engines An-12 replacement, unless that aircraft would use 2 PD-8S turboprops derived from the PD-8V of the mi-26.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:28 am

    They didn't make the Il-112V the size and shape they did for fun... they understand bigger aircraft require more power so they are hardly going to make the fuselage bigger just for fun, this was a conscious choice that was made clearly to meet the requirements of the air force customer.

    With a ramp it can still carry some classes of vehicles.

    I would bet the Russian Air Force is not going to accept an aircraft design that accepts some of the vehicles and loads they want to transport.

    Most vehicles that exceeded this width would have been anyway too heavy for an aircraft with 5 tons payload.

    If that were true then this aircraft design probably would have been a jet from the start.


    What I meant is that a military cargo turboprop with rear ramp of the same size of the an-140 or of the Ladoga can still have its uses.

    The Il-212 seems to tick all the boxes so as long as it works an Il-112 would be redundant. The extra weight capacity could be used for extra fuel to extend range or not used at all to make the aircraft lighter to operate from shorter airstrips.

    Since they are building anyway Ladoga for civilian use, it could be acceptable to produce some more in a military cargo version:

    Why add a different type with different engines to the Russian military inventory?

    There is plenty of demand within the civilian customer market.

    if Iran managed to do a military cargo version of the an-140 with rear ramp, for sure Russia can do the same, also considering that the Ladoga and the an-140 are sharing some parts and they have the same fuselage size. Probably they can also obtain from Iran their study and data.

    But why? The IL-212 will do everything the Russian military requires so commonality with the AN-140 means nothing at all... what they should do is sell their An-140s to Iran so they can sell them to customers or use them for themselves and Russia can wash their hands of that design.

    As far as the more powerful turboprop engines, Russia is also working on the PDV-4000, a study for a new generation turboprop (aircraft engine) and turboshaft (Helicopter engine) with a power between 4000 and 5000 hp (similar to the Boeing C-130 and to the Alenia C-27J engines and a little bit more powerful than the An-12 engines).

    4,000hp is pretty close to the engines they were going to use in the 3,000-3,500hp range, but as I said... if the Il-212 works out then there probably is no requirement for an Il-112V.

    I have not heard additional news on this engine recently, so possibly it will be delayed due to to other priorities PD-8, PD-8V for the mi-26, PD-35, VK-650, VK-1600, etc

    As more engines enter serial production they will be free to start looking at engine gaps they could fill by modifying or upgrading existing engine types.

    An An-70 type engine would be interesting for the VDV of course, but not really a high priority right now.

    Such engine could go either to a parallel turboprop aircraft in a similar class to the il-212, in a faster or larger version of the Il-114 passenger turboprop, or even in a potential 4 engines An-12 replacement, unless that aircraft would use 2 PD-8S turboprops derived from the PD-8V of the mi-26.

    Now that they are going with the Il-212 I would think the chances of the Il-276 are actually higher than ever, and if they mount the engines above the wing so they can operate on rough airstrips then all the better.

    The Il-276 is the quickest and easiest An-12 replacement option available, but of course Tupolev would argue the Tu-330 would be a useful aircraft too, which I would very much agree with.

    Making a new An-12 is not a option when there are two Russian options based on aircraft already in service that would improve commonality with existing types.
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    Post  George1 Mon Jan 01, 2024 12:30 pm

    Sergei Chemezov, General Director of the Rostec State Corporation interview part:

    — Previously, the project of the Il-112V military transport aircraft was suspended due to the disaster, what are the prospects for this project now?

    — All new projects in the aircraft industry are always associated with a certain degree of risk. So it was, is and will be all over the world. This is why tests are needed to identify critical aspects and make the aircraft reliable and safe. Our army needs a new transporter; today work is underway in this direction. The aircraft is supposed to be modified for other engines; the option of using PD-8 jet engines is being considered. The available reserves for the Il-112V will be taken to the maximum. Previously, the new military transport aircraft will be labeled Il-212. There is an understanding that it is necessary to increase the carrying capacity of the machine; it should be possible to operate the aircraft from unpaved and unprepared runways, including in Arctic conditions.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4788899.html

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    Post  Kiko Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:34 pm

    Shoigu announced the date for the appearance of a new aircraft for the army, the Il-212, 03.05.2024.

    Shoigu: a prototype of the Il-212 aircraft will appear by the end of 2026.

    The new light military transport aircraft Il-212 should replace the An-26 and An-72, it is being developed by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).

    The production of a prototype of the new light military transport aircraft Il-212 is planned to be completed by the end of 2026, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a thematic conference call.

    Currently, the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) is developing the Il-212 with a PD-8 turbojet engine, which will replace the outdated An-26 and An-72.

    The minister noted that the new transport aircraft will have a greater payload capacity and flight range, as well as ease of refueling and maintenance.

    https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/05/03/2024/65e6fb1c9a79471e56767544

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:52 pm

    www.rbc.ru wrote:The aircraft will retain as much of its avionics and avionics as its predecessor, as well as the fuselage in general. At the same time, it will receive PD-8 turbojet engines instead of TV-117S turboprop engines. Accordingly, the aircraft’s wing and landing gear will be redesigned, and new fuel and hydraulic systems will be installed,” an informed source told RIA Novosti .

    At the end it is a completely new aircraft.

    I hope they call it Cheburaska.
    They are changing everything except the fuselage (which was already wider than the one of the An-72).

    • An-72 Cargo compartment dimensions =
      9 x 2.2 x 2.15 m

    • Il-112v The cargo hold is 8.4 m long, 2.45 m wide and 2.42 m high


    They could maybe also make the airplane a bit longer to have more internal space and longer cargo area, since the il-112v prototype was 24 m long, while the An-72 28 m long.

    The Ukrainian An-178 (an-158 derivative, which is itself a stretched aAn-74 derivative with under the wing engines) has a cargo hold of 16.6 x 2.4 x 2.4 m.

    This is mainly due to the increased length of the aircraft (32 m Vs 24m of the il-112v and 28m of the an-72)

    The EASA C-295 has the same length of the il-112v prototype, but a longer cargo hold (12.69 m) mainly thanks to fuselage with lower height and width.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:58 pm

    The PD-8 engine has over twice the power of the turboprops they were using. It makes no sense to keep the airframe dimensions the same. And with a turbofan engine the aircraft can have a higher cruise speed. So the straight wing doesn't make any sense.

    You would need a smaller turbofan, like one based on the Al-55 engines, to have the same power level.
    A PD-8 engine has about the same power level as a 10,000 hp turboprop. An Al-222 turbofan version would have about the same power level as a 5,000 hp turboprop. An Al-55 turbofan version would about the same power level as a 3,000 hp turboprop.

    It is going to be a complete redesign, no matter what Shoigu thinks.

    Putting the engines on top of the wing like on the An-72 is also a stupid idea. It is considered one of the design failures of the An-72 as it makes engine maintenance much more difficult. The supposed lift benefits due to the Coanda effect were also never proven in practice. It failed to show the supposed benefit in wind tunnel testing and in practical use.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:12 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/sergej-shojgu-prodolzhaetsya-sozdanie-samolyota-il-212/

    Sergei Shoigu: the creation of the Il-212 aircraft continues
    03/05/2024, 17:44

    During a thematic conference call with the leadership of the Russian Armed Forces, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said that the development of the Il-212 light military transport aircraft, which will receive PD-8 engines, continues. These aircraft will replace the aging An-26 and An-72 fleet, Shoigu said.

    According to him, the new transport aircraft will be distinguished by increased payload capacity and flight range, ease of refueling and maintenance. In addition, it will be able to use unpaved, unequipped runways, and also operate in Arctic latitudes.

    “The United Aircraft Corporation has already begun developing a technical design for the aircraft. The production of a prototype is planned for the end of 2026,” added Sergei Shoigu.

    “The IL-212 is conceived as the IL-112, but with jet engines from the Superjet. They promise to produce it in two and a half years, so the first flight could take place in 2027. Based on the experience of other aircraft, testing will take about three more years. Thus, from 2030, the Il-212 will be able to begin entering service with the troops,” Alexey Rogozin, the former head of Il PJSC, commented on the Russian Aviation website. He noted that the first An-26 will be 50 years old by this time; the aircraft made its first flight on May 21, 1969.

    On October 13, 2023, it became known that the Russian military department plans to create a new light military transport aircraft to replace the Il-112V turboprop project, which will be significantly redesigned and will receive a new name Il-212. The fundamental difference is the replacement of TV7-117ST-02 engines with PD-8 bypass turbojet engines. The Il-212 will retain as much of its avionics and avionics as its predecessor, as well as the fuselage in general. The wing and landing gear, fuel and hydraulic systems are expected to be seriously reworked.

    It was reported that the engines would be installed above the wing, like the An-72, to ensure the operation of the new aircraft from unprepared runways and unpaved airfields. Range, payload and cargo compartment dimensions will change due to more powerful engines.

    It is a new aircraft, they will only take some lessons learnt and maybe some fuselage parts from the il-112v, but that is all.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:05 am

    The PD-8 engine has over twice the power of the turboprops they were using. It makes no sense to keep the airframe dimensions the same.

    Twice the power but the Il-112s engines were underpowered, so not massively overpowered.

    And with a turbofan engine the aircraft can have a higher cruise speed. So the straight wing doesn't make any sense.

    They said the wing would be improved.

    You would need a smaller turbofan, like one based on the Al-55 engines, to have the same power level.

    But it was underpowered which is why they are moving to turbojets in the first place.

    Putting the engines on top of the wing like on the An-72 is also a stupid idea. It is considered one of the design failures of the An-72 as it makes engine maintenance much more difficult.

    Experience with the An-72 led to design of the rear of the aircraft to allow maintenance on top of the aircraft with the sides of the engines opening out on both sides and being designed to be walked upon so you didn't need a lift to raise you up to the level of the engines.

    The engine location is also used on the A-40 and Be-200 aircraft.

    The original problem was that no airfield equipment could be raised up that high to allow work to be done on the engines as most were designed for engine pods that hung below the wings.

    It is a new aircraft, they will only take some lessons learnt and maybe some fuselage parts from the il-112v, but that is all.

    Cargo size and capacity, and range and payload size will all be improved... sounds like a good deal... nothing worse than a plane with short range or lacks capacity, which many were complaining about in regard to the original Il-112V design.

    This all sounds positive to me.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:15 pm

    @Lancelot

    Not sure why do you complain - this aircraft is supposed to address RuAF requirements not yours. In Russian MoD there are experts regarding aircraft building too as well as RuAF potential users. They need updated concept of An-72? so be it.


    You claim that the An-72 had no advantages regarding STOL? did you check it vs other aircraft similar class?
    High placed engines? looks like aircaft can land of worse airstips. More power in engines even shorter takeoff...

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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:52 pm

    Possible visualization of the Il-212 military transport aircraft as a hybrid of the Il-112V and An-72 with two PD-8 engines
    Il-112V/Il-212 light military transport  - Page 24 10580810

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4807350.html

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:33 am


    You claim that the An-72 had no advantages regarding STOL? did you check it vs other aircraft similar class?

    The An-72 was a good aircraft and I seem to remember a few members suggesting they put it back into production.

    Well the Il-212 is the best of both worlds.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:02 am



    At about 2 minutes 35 seconds there is a piece on the Il-212 which says the aircraft will be based on the Il-112 but with PD-8 engines mounted above the wing for short field operations.

    It says a prototype of the Il-212 with PD-8 engines in an overwing configuration will appear at the end of 2026. Its development should be faster because they are making changes for the engine change but otherwise keeping most of what is already developed.

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