Mach 2.5 for the R-27 v.s. Mach 4 for the AMRAAM?
And how much R-27AEs does Russia actually have?
The R-27E has a much bigger rocket motor than the basic R-27.
Head on range for E model R-27s is 130km from high alt high speed launch.
The R-27E was designed for the Su-27 and is widely deployed in at least 4 variants, including the ET (IR BVR), ER (SARH BVR), EP (ARM for aircraft radars BVR), and the modified version for use over water for the Su-33.
The R-27 is currently likely the most common Russian BVR missile in service even today.
Lol, high speed launch, yeah, so subtract 30% off from that 130 km and we get: just over 100 km!
I know that we're talking maximum range here, but if the US test fired our AMRAAMs in outer space it's range would be marked with hundreds of miles.
So why not cancel R-77 and integrate whatever good came out of it to R-27?
Because the R-27s huge front butterfly wings make it tricky to carry internally. The R-77 with its tail grid fins folded forward is ideal for internal carriage.
But...they're just wings...I'll lob off deltas and smack on some potato mashers, sounds simple.
But, they don't.
Says you. The Russians aren't stupid. Most current export customers of Russian fighters wont care about internal carriage so the only difference between the R-27 and the R-77 is that the R-27ET is bigger and heavier and much longer ranged and passive IR guided... absolutely ideal for those planes that try to run.
But as Vlad said, they aren't the bit maneuverable? How do you even expect to catch a F-35 if your end game kill box is tiny?
You know, you should come to America, become a comedian, and make lots of money. You're a funny man. Here's my flow chart of your thought pattern.
Don't want to sound mean but I would say the same about you except your chart would be:
Merica= better than everything else in the world.
F-35 is best in the world... there is no situation where an F-35 could fail. Experience at fighting bunnies tells me that merican planes are the best in the world and nothing even on the drawing board can defeat what merica will have in service in Maybe 4 years time.
Russia doesn't need planes to reach New York. America is a non issue. It is a huge boxer that likes picking on kids. We Russia is not a boxer and isn't particularly fit, but he has a hand gun and I really don't think he would have any problem using it to shoot the boxer in the hip or shoulder if that boxer starts throwing real punches.
Lol, then you should obviously read this thread again because I haven't said that the F-35 was invincible but only not susceptible to the tactics you're using. And obviously you should read my posts more clearly because I already said in a thread far far away that we're out matched by Russian Nukes, AShMs, and Ballistic missiles. So before you actually go try prodding my skin, read.
You gonna try to spam missiles again? We have more!
You just don't get it do you?
There is no chance of a direct conflict between Russia and the US simply because each one will not know when the other will go for the throat so both will be on a hair trigger and if you overstep the mark it will go nuke... and you really can't be sure what that mark actually is... only they do... when you step on it.
But...you suggest that a conflict will occur in so many posts...other wise you wouldn't have brought up S-400s against B-2s, because I can understand Buks/Tors/Pantsirs v.s. B-2s because those medium-short range SAMs would be the first line of defense for a country like Iran against a country like the US, but when you brought in the S-400 it was a total Russianization. But my point still stands, our B-2s have the range, it's missiles (JASSMs) have the range, and it's payload is large enough to handle Buks/Tors/Pantsirs. What one should do is purchase Aircrafts with uber IRSTs like the Su-35 to handle B-2s instead of using a surface force.
No freedom for the oppressed eh?
Screw the oppressed. If they want freedom and rights then let them fight for them. It is not my job or your job for that matter to save the world.
Non-interference eh? And you say we are blind.
Right, and you think I ever supported that?
Not saying you did, but question why you seem so certain a regime that will do that on your behalf will tell you the truth about the F-35 and F-22 for that matter. They cost trillions of your tax dollars... they are hardly going to say "sorry, Russia isn't a threat and stealth planes are not worth sh!t against terrorists or in the war on drugs." "No refunds". Please vote for us next election... it is a two party system and they Oked these white elephants too.
Uh, you should watch MSNBC then. On that matter, Russia is only the supplier, because Colombian cartels have been looking for weapons that can take down our Enforcement troops for a long time, getting Iglas or advanced SAM isn't making us comfortable.
See: Soviet Union
Estonia goes, "WHY?1"
Latvia goes, "WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?!"
Lithuania goes, "THIS IS ILLEGAL!"
Seriously, do I have to go on?
Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were Soviet Republics and plenty of Russians suffered under the soviet system too... how about an apology from the Baltic states?
Or better yet, they are little countries like Haiti and Grenada. Big countries like Russia and the US don't need to respect their rights of sovereignty and they certainly don't need to respect their borders... unless they develop nuclear weapons.
Because Russians were the dominants in the Soviet system? And you just keep avoiding my questions, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, etc, all fairly large countries, oppressed by the Soviet system led by Russians, yet you're asking for an apology? Yeah, right.
Imagine, Israeli air space.
Israel is tiny. A few bio weapons and they would collapse.
Bio weapons are for those who can't fight an honorable war. And who'd be the better man then?
I'm just saying man, if Egypt wants good fighters, they should be good boys and buy from America.
Fixed for ya...
I'm just saying man, if Egypt wants good fighters, they should be good b!tches and buy from America... or else feel the economic and political isolation that America can impose on a country that rejects it.
Yet the OP of this thread has a computer and Egypt is still a bad boy to us? Lol, if you want good fighters, buy from America or Sukhoi, MiGs are shit.
lol, such an uncreative mind are you? It was a metaphor, which means: "The concept of understanding one thing in terms of another."
I know what a metaphor is. Mustangs are still over rated junk.
Which is again, irrelevant.
What I meant was, your launch platform isn't as relevant as what you're launching.
I know what you meant. It doesn't make you right however.
A C-5A Galaxy could be fitted with an enormous radar and hundreds of AMRAAMs but it is simply not able to go fast enough or fly high enough to give its missiles extra reach. In comparison a Mig-31 flying at Mach 2.84 at 20,000m could kill a C-5 Galaxy at 200km without problems using an R-37 missile.
Or do the same with a B-1B, it works.
But again, your problem is that you are saying that high altitude and high speed is everything for a missile, which I'd agree if we were in Space, but we're not. Put R-37s on that C-5 and it'd kill the MiG-31 anyways.
Never learned the Scientific method? Get a larger sample size. The AMRAAM has been used successfully against a handful of crafts.
Who cares about sample size. This was a real engagement against a real target. Perfectly valid.
Science cares about sample size. Unless you reject science and substitute it for propaganda?
Who says were firing one? Oh yeah, S-300s can shoot 10 targets, well we'll just shoot more! At the end of the day, our launch platforms are unharmed while you're at our mercy, we'll eventually have victory.
Actually a S-300 battery could probably deal with about 50 targets, and that is ignoring the other missiles supporting them like Pantsir which carries 12 x 12km range SAMs and has two 30mm cannon too.
The point is that to fire lots of missiles you will need lots of platforms and those platforms will have to operate from somewhere... a somewhere the Russians could easily attack in revenge against an attack against Russia.
Perhaps you've read one too many Soviet manuscripts. "Putin said it can kill 50 targets, why did it only kill 10!? THOSE LIARS!" Vlad posted a video of a news story of a S-300 killing 10 targets in however much time, that can be confirmed, what you're saying, isn't.
"Somewhere" is usually home or the sea, because we have the reach of a Superpower.
Egypt has Buks, Tors, and Patriots. Nothing JASSMs can't handle.
Even OSA (SA-
can deal with subsonic cruise missiles. TORs and BUKS and even Patriots would eat JASSMs for breakfast.
Oh sure, if you were to put low-frequency long band radars to anything, you might see a reduced RCS JASSM, but by then it'd be about 50 km out and there'd be about 100 more behind each one. Good luck!
But it's all for defense! If I have to buy a gun from a criminal I'd buy it!
Now you say the US is a criminal? Most law abiding countries don't buy from criminals when they can. They often choose not to accept what their enemies will allow them to have but instead try to buy from neutral countries that treat them like adults. They could buy Rafales.
lol, stop shoving words into my mouth because you obviously missed the metaphor.
The Criminal whom I'm referring to was Russia, which you've obviously missed by cropping out my statement.
I'm afraid of Egyptian pilots getting killed because people like you lied to them.
Yeah, cause you just care about egyptian pilots...
It's better than you whom only care for Russia and not for the sake of the world. :attention
MiGs are crap, get Sukhois or F-15s.
F-15s... they can't have. I have told you, you naughty little sand country somewhere near the pyramids of some Geeza. The Russians have offered Migs. Egypt turned its back on the Soviet Union some time ago and as far as Russia is concerned it might do it again so I really don't think they will be offered the latest stuff straight away. BUK and TOR were in service in the 1980s and are not exactly new either.
Jeez, I didn't realize you thought Egypt was stagnant and didn't improve or worsen relations with other countries because they could buy F-15s if they did 7 little favors.
Yay! Proliferated world! Anthrax spores for everybody!
Back to your time out Garry.
Anthrax? Kiddy stuff... more like weaponised Ebola.
Or maybe the Andromeda strain? Yeah, I lost my tin foil hat for a bit.
Didn't Indian planes get melted down into kills by USAF pilots? They aren't complaining now, but that's just because they want to stay friends.
AFAIK Indian pilots kicked USAF ass and won over 90% of the simulated engagements... even without using their radars in their proper modes to keep their frequencies secret.
Should check some testimonials. The IAF (Indian Air Force) got literally melted down and turned into FOD for future adversaries.
Never heard of welding?
What... no band aids?
Couldn't afford them Putin said
For the sake of mobility! You, Russian, know of mobility!
Hahahahaha... the Merkava 4 could gain another 5 tons and the mobility would not suffer because it was not very mobile to begin with.
Quit joking around, you obviously never had 5 tonnes on you before.
BECAUSE IF OUR WEAPONS WORKED FINE LIKE PUTIN SAID, WE WON'T NEED A GUN RIGHT?
Guns on a fighter are not backup. Try firing a warning shot in peacetime to make a civil airliner land when all you have are missiles.
IMO, should of just bought radios. Oh wai- we do. So again, learn the word, "Redundancy".
Yet whenever I say and prove something that Russia did wrong or are doing wrong, you automatically accuse the US as being the wrongdoers? You aren't really mending the situation by getting pay back.
No country has clean hands. The problem I have is the west preaching to the rest of the world. How do you think the west got so rich and powerful? By pinching stuff off the natives... that is how. The ME never went through an industrial revolution, they never understood fully what Europe was doing with all that black liquid stuff they craved so much. Of course much of it was done centuries ago... but it makes embarassing reading.
But we've already apologized to the Natives, and what I've been saying all along is that Russia hasn't apologized to the CIS, as far as I know that is. What you've done is instead of answering my questions you just skipped over them to attack me and make me answer instead of for yourself.
You misunderstood my previous statement, here's a dumbed down version: "The lifestyle of US = bad guy and RUS = Good guy is not the life style for me, and I think you should dump it". Never recommended any other life style, but I think it's best not to have a hero or a villain as both the US and RUS has done wrong that has yet to be mended.
How about I explain it to you in plain terms.
I am the athiest here. I don't believe in good and evil as such. Humans are capable of either and good people can do bad just as bad people can do good.
I don't hate America. I would have to care about America to hate it and I honestly don't think about America very much at all.
I don't think Russia is pure and innocent either, but one of these two countries seems to have decided it is the world police. It seems to think it has the right to impose its political system on other countries, that international law does not apply to it yet it will demonise other countries for not meeting its very high standards without ever considering whether it meets its own standards itself.
If the US disappeared completely off the Earth tomorrow I would not miss it. I don't know it and quite frankly it doesn't appeal to me enough to make me want to get to know it.
Even if it did practise what it preached I don't think we'd ever be close friends because it is a little preachy and likes to show off by demanding it has the best. My computer is not the best latest super dooper computer in the world and that really isn't a problem for me. My dick is not so tiny I have to compensate by having the biggest or best... which reminds be of a fitting joke... a huge biker goes into a prostitutes room and drops his trousers and out pops a tiny penis maybe 1cm long. The Hooker takes one look and blurts out "Who is that supposed to satisfy."
To which the biker replies "Me."
So you're an Individualist. Understand this, if America were to dissapear tomorrow, Russia will replace us. If goes Russia, China will. Someone is always going to be the Superpower, whether you like it or not. That someone will always shove whatever Morals it has down your throat, whether you like it or not. Why is this? Because without one extreme, you will not recognize the other. America is also here to provide a reference point for morals, what is considered consensus and what is considered non sense. We are also here to provide mediation in the world, because whether you like it or not, a lot of people hate us, but many more adore us. We do not use that admiration for whatever belligerent purpose many accuse of us, because this same damn speech has been given over and over by the father of my father and the son of my sons. We have done bad things in the world, I've admitted it many times, and I'd admit it again. But how much good have we done? How much good have you've over looked? Many? None? Many people in Iraq might as well look in disdain at the trail of blood we've left behind but that is the short term no? How will they and their sons enjoy the life that we have left 10, 20, 30 years from now? They say Democracy is bad but for a country that has never had one it is a trial, and like many experiments before, there will be errors. Sure, you can say that their integration into a world of Democratic Capitalism is only going to exploit the poor and mobilize the rich but the true question is if they are content. Sometimes the ends justify the means and other times it doesn't. So bottom line, before you call us for what you think we are (a collection of rich, belligerent, interventionist racists who only look out for ourselves) then I can only ask you to look deeper into our people and our character.
Of course, you could of just always not asked the right people.
It is the west in the 21st Century... who cares what the people think... it is trial by media. Let big business media giants tell you what to think... 1984 came late. Don't think for yourself or someone will say "If you don't love it... leave". Or more cutting "If you are not with us then you are with the Terrorists!"
The problem with that is that the alternative is to listen to more media because your sources are mostly people educated by media anyways so if you want another Orwellian, you'd have to spend your life contemplating society in a forest.
Yes, and power their new society with massive Energy converters of the people! Laid upon the ground where villages once stood. Yeah, Afghanistan collapsed right after all those Communist thoughts and I have a feeling it's going to do the same to our Democratic ones.
America has found valuable minerals in the ground... it will at least keep a token presence there even just to extract that.
Of course for the Afghan people, US funding for bombs and weapons stopped the instant the Soviets left and there was no rebuilding assistence or support.
Which of course could be a good thing or a bad thing for Afghanistan.
The problem with that is that we weren't the ones in Hinds strafing.
Because what you're asking us is like asking Pakistan to rebuild Afghanistan after we leave because they funded most of their shenanigans.
You seriously need to visit America and have a chat or two with some folks here, your view of us is pretty damn similar to our view of Russians,
Your view isn't changing, I doubt mine would either.
Besides who wants to apply 3 months in advance and get finger printed and cavity searched just to visit US soil... no thanks.
So you'd much rather dump away a chance to look at the other side of the fence just because you don't want a hand up your ass? I would; I'd learn Russian, visit Russia, I'd learn Mandarin, visit China. Because my views change, they aren't going to be stagnant, and although I do admit my arguments do come off as hard headed, you yourself is hard headed so there's no point in being soft headed in this argument because the only way I'll punch a hole through the wall you've built is to be harder than the wall itself.
So, it was a, "we're good buddies, but we aren't being Communist" type of thing? Because US coming in there and talking shit isn't much of a cassus belli for: 1. Soviets invading 2. Soviets killing over a million people 3. Afghanis killing thousands 4. More Internet war porn.
Perhaps you might want to read up about it before making assumptions. The CIA didn't just pop in to Iran to suggest he take over for a while... and they didn't do it that way in Afghanistan either. Afghanistan was not a communist country but they weren't a democracy either. Their army was largely armed along a mix of legacy British (ie 303 rifles) and Soviet gear. After they had a few coups and had a few ambassadors and their families executed the Soviets were invited in to help with some problems.
It was basically a civil war largely funded by the US and Saudi Arabia that the Afghan government couldn't fight on their own so they asked for Soviet support. The resulting conflict lasted 9 years.
Which of course, as we know, ended in nothing. America intervened, Soviets intervened, and the resulting clash; nothing.
But the original point stands, Russia doesn't keep the very best for themselves and instead sends them to India.
Not really. Russia sold what people wanted to buy but couldn't afford to buy some stuff herself.
Well correction... chose not to spend money on their military till they had a few things sorted out first. Now most of those things have been sorted out and they are starting to buy the new stuff again, especially in priority areas like command, control, communications, computers, intell, and aircraft and new munitions.
They are also spending on their navy. They never stopped spending on strategic weapons and have managed to fill most of the gaps created by their early warning stations now being located in foreign countries with the break up of the Soviet Union.
All the while leaving the money in the hands of Russian fat cats while boys on the front line had to do with mediocre equipment? There's a reason why I supported the F-22, even though it might as well bankrupt us.
As a wise Croatian friend of mine said and is paraphrased, "Money is irrelevant when the quality is superior". So, until next year, my statement stands firm, "Russia has crap Sukhois, India has good Sukhois."
Well I think the Su-27SM is far superior to the original and in many aspects is not much different from the Su-30MKI. An R-77M will have the same flight parameters launched from both aircraft.
The Plane itself might be similar, but electronics are the Brains of the plane and Su-30MKIs are better in that aspect.
Wasn't directed at you, Russia in general (as if they're actually going to read this). But no, having your Internal components upgraded is not a new plane, simply a modernized one. We call those Upgrade blocks. A new plane is the PAK-FA, Su-35s are just modernized.
Russian design bureaus can call them what they like, it is the Russian military that actually makes the decision.
Personally I really don't care much what they call them... Talking about Su-27SM and Su-35S aircraft is quicker and easier and more straight forward than talking about block upgrades. Expecially when you have a Block 20 F-16 and give it most of a Block 60 upgrade except for parts from the Block 50 upgrade that results in performance on par with a block 40 F-16.
Because we don't call our block 60 F-16s F-16DM (deep modernization) just to make people want to the new version, we just scrap the old version and sell only the new one.
Which doesn't change a thing about how IFF works! If India has problem, Russia has too, time to send in the RPE (Russian Private Eyes)!
It is the electronic warfare suite that manages that stuff. The IFF equipment just sends signals and codes and enters the information into the EW suite.
Very simply you could point an IFF interrogator at an aircraft and send a signal and get a response. Obviously that can be used to track aircraft without using radar... simply by IFF automatic responses. Modern IFF systems are more cagey about who they reply to and when so as not to give themselves away and need to be set up properly. The Indians will not be using Russian codes and settings because they wont even know them. Even during the cold war the PVO, Frontal Aviation, and naval Aviation would not have the same IFF codes, radar frequencies, and missiles.
Of course, which leads to Team killing.
If they know they're pretty stupid, does that make them pretty stupid?
If they know they are stupid and they are right then you have to accept they are pretty stupid. If they are wrong they are pretty stupid to think they are stupid.
Why must you keep cropping my sentences?!
It was a rhetorical question if you didn't notice.
But we're not even communicating! You're the one with radars up!
One site might operate radars with half a dozen sites getting air picture information from those radars with their radars off.
Or 6 sites might take turns turning their radars on and then shutting down and moving. The options are extensive.
Or one site has radars up giving 6 sites their radar image so we just attack those 6 sites.
I can see it from below far away. Still have the initiative, waiting for it to turn it's back, AMRAAM!
And you assume he can't see you. With height he has the high ground advantage. His missile dives on you, while yours has to climb for him... and of course it all falls apart because aircraft operate without wingmen only in crap computer games where one plane can take on an entire airforce and win.
Because he can't see me...I've told you this Garry, so many times
Bullocks! We won Air dominance fair and square, we weren't going to do anything else, I swear!
And Russia trusts you... like Putin would trust Saakashvili with a knife to putins nutsack.
That's a bad analogy, it's like we're 2 boxers and I just knocked you out, so your Coach gives you a gun to shoot me, which is so unfair.
How will Russia be remembered? The ones that shot first, at the kid who threw punches.
I rather doubt there will be any around to remember.
Any that survive would have no way of finding out what happened. CNN would hardly tell the truth would it?
Ahahaha, my point has been proven exactly. Honor is something lost on you.
Hey, wait a minute, you don't have any sophisticated ground attack equipment do you? Oh right, that was those MiGs, tsk tsk, too bad they couldn't out run bullets.
What? The Su-34 is a dedicated striker like the F-15E. The Su-35 has just as much air to ground capability as the Su-30MKI. The Mig-33 probably has better capability but a more narrow range of ordinance.
But we're talking Su-35 v.s. MiG-29...the enemy is THAT way Garry!