Egyptian Air Defense Forces

GarryB wrote:Very hard question.

Enormous number of variables involved.

Biggest... who is operating the F-35 and who is operating the Pechora 2M.

With the right passive sensors and the right tactics almost anything could be shot down, but then any fixed target can be overwhelmed too.

GarryB wrote:Well first thing is first, any conflict between Egypt and Israel and you can kiss goodbye all of those American military toys you operate like the tanks and aircraft, because in any conflict with Israel the US will side with Israel no matter who started it.

Having said that the upgraded Pechora can engage targets as small as 0.2 m square. I would expect any exported F-35s wont even have the RCS of US F-35s let alone their F-22s so the system might be able to engage... particularly from the side or rear from a reasonable distance.

The real issue is mobility. Pechora was not mobile at all in its original version which means it could be located by satellite and both engaged by assets on SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) missions and avoided by aircraft attacking targets.

The upgraded version has alternative optical guidance plus it is more mobile. Obviously a mobile system that sits in one place for years without practise of moving is no better than a fixed system.

Egyptian forces need to practise moving and train properly to get the most out of the system. Ironically the fact that the system is based on the SA-3 and looks ancient is an advantage though it limits how far the system can be upgraded, it also means that it will ben uderestimated too.

The best defence from attack is to have the ability to attack right back and be able to hit the enemy harder than they can hit you.
SAMs are nice, but IsKANDERs would be better.

IronsightSniper wrote:Best thing to do against any Israeli F-35s would be to make sure they don't even know where they are because first thing Israelis always do is do SEAD spam so you can dream about your other Air-defenses later. It won't be inconceivable that they'll start their SEAD ops withlow- flying Helis to kill your Radars, which I think you can beat by camping mediocre air defenses near them, such as ZU-23-2 or any of their missile bearing variants, near your radars to protect them against Apaches and their sorts. As Garry says, export F-35's will have a larger all-aspect RCS then the one's we're buying for ourselves. However, considering that the Home-built F-35 we're getting will have an RCS of about -30 dbs or .001 m2 on the Front aspect, you can assume that the Exports will have a bigger one, maybe .01 m2. In that case, the SA-3 would relatively close to the F-35, and due to the relatively low kinetic performance of the F-35, that wouldn't be much of a problem (unless the Israelis plan to supercruise everywhere). So, place your Gun-based AAs close to your radar assets to protect against Helis, SA-3s and other Missile based SAMs farther out but only fire when the signal is strong, consistent, and you are damn sure it's actually a F-35.

Of course, if you do manage to shoot down the F-35, maybe Carlo Kopp will just stroke off all the articles he has written against the F-35 and banter to us for F-22s. If enough crap gets thrown around, maybe we'll actually restart production and development of the Raptors, and if we do sell Raptors to Israeli, just buy S-400s, and lots of them.

IronsightSniper wrote:Best thing to do against any Israeli F-35s would be to make sure they don't even know where they are because first thing Israelis always do is do SEAD spam so you can dream about your other Air-defenses later. It won't be inconceivable that they'll start their SEAD ops with low-flying Helis to kill your Radars, which I think you can beat by camping mediocre air defenses near them, such as ZU-23-2 or any of their missile bearing variants, near your radars to protect them against Apaches and their sorts. As Garry says, export F-35's will have a larger all-aspect RCS then the one's we're buying for ourselves. However, considering that the Home-built F-35 we're getting will have an RCS of about -30 dbs or .001 m2 on the Front aspect, you can assume that the Exports will have a bigger one, maybe .01 m2. In that case, the SA-3 would relatively close to the F-35, and due to the relatively low kinetic performance of the F-35, that wouldn't be much of a problem (unless the Israelis plan to supercruise everywhere). So, place your Gun-based AAs close to your radar assets to protect against Helis, SA-3s and other Missile based SAMs farther out but only fire when the signal is strong, consistent, and you are damn sure it's actually a F-35.

Of course, if you do manage to shoot down the F-35, maybe Carlo Kopp will just stroke off all the articles he has written against the F-35 and banter to us for F-22s. If enough crap gets thrown around, maybe we'll actually restart production and development of the Raptors, and if we do sell Raptors to Israeli, just buy S-400s, and lots of them.

ahmedfire wrote:
thanx for informations ,,can you explain the meaning of( camping mediocre air defenses) ??
i think we protect radars very well and make good mobility to systems ..

nightcrawler wrote:
A very good reply. One thing we haven't discussed is the ability of Israel to deploy SLAM [Stand-Off Land Attack Missile] agianst high value assets like Radar installtions; in this case Egyptians may have trouble tracking/hitting them with SA-3///

Although, I don't have a very current knowledge on Egyptian Air Defense equipment, and Wikipedia isn't helping at all, so it would be nice to know what type of SAMs you guys have besides SA-3s and ZU-23-S.

ahmedfire wrote:

Although, I don't have a very current knowledge on Egyptian Air Defense equipment, and Wikipedia isn't helping at all, so it would be nice to know what type of SAMs you guys have besides SA-3s and ZU-23-S.

i'll give you what i know,,,

# sinai 23:it has 6 eagle eye systems and 2 cannons and the system is fixed on M113 armored personnel carrier..

# tyer elsabah : egyptian version of SAM 2 (tyer elsabah has new good speed and engage radar)


# AMOUN system: egyptian self product with cooperation with italy: it's upgraded version of sky guard..(we sell some of it to kuwait that used in gulf war and succeeded to hit the iraq cruise missiles unlike patriot pac 2 that can't do that)..


# HAWK 2,3




#chaparrel system...


# crotale system



# patriot pac 2,3 from america



# SAM 2,3,6 and 9....
sam 6 (igla)


# BUK M (russia)


#Tor M1(upgraded)



#SLAMRRAM...


#pechora 2M...



#for the cannons > we have alot of types that we manufacture like ZU-23s and more...

#we have avery good collection of radars >2d and 3D and we use c4i to connect and integrate all these systems ...we have alsi airborne planes(E2c)...

# negotiations to get s400 and su 35....

what do you think now?

ahmedfire wrote:i have aquestion here
the radar of pechora 2m is VHF radar and can detect aplane from 50 miles !! so what is the point here ? i have aradar that can detect atarget from 50 miles but the rocket of pechora has only 35 km range???
how can i take the advantage of the 50 miles when i have only arocket with 35 km???
or using data link btween radar of battery and another far missiles ??

Well to be fair to my people, AMOUN shot down a UAV with a Sparrow 7M, it was only a test fire, unlike the Patriot which saw real action in real combat conditions against multiple targets, so we didn't do that bad.

As for my evaluation of the Egyptian Air Defenses now, I think you'd do fine against export F-35s and SLAMs. The combination of Buks, Tors, SLAMRAMs, etc, would create a nice thick net of no-go zone for Israeli planes. Just remember to keep your electronics fresh and new, your people nice and trained, because all the Israelis need to know are where your high-value Air-defense assets are (your Buks, Tors, Patriots, etc), and you can kiss them bye bye. A Zu-23-S, no matter how much missiles you put it on them, will do no good against the F-35.

Creating a data link between radar and farther off missiles would put your Radar assets in danger of an Anti-radiation missile strike. Typically, a stealth plane flying over your skies will know when they are being illuminated with radar. They will usually not care for it, however. They will care for it when the plane tells them you have fired an SARH missile, which would allow them time to maneuver, deploy decoys, etc. With the 50 mile maximum detection range, you'd have much less range to actually detect a stealth aircraft. Still, however, if the enemy doesn't think you're engaging them yet, let them get closer, so your missile has less time to impact, and thus, they'd have less time to maneuver. That extra detection range is there just so you can get your stuff ready or notify your peers so they can get a shot too.

Creating a data link between radar and farther off missiles would put your Radar assets in danger of an Anti-radiation missile strike.

SOC wrote:Have any images of the Egyptian Buks ever surfaced?

SOC wrote:Those are all SA-6 Kub/Kvadrats, I'm looking for SA-11s!

GarryB wrote:

Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment

Hahahahahaha... SOC will still not be pleased... that is SA-17...   

Nice pictures though... thank you for posting.  

GarryB wrote:

Oh ,sorry i didn't see your comment

Hahahahahaha... SOC will still not be pleased... that is SA-17...   

Nice pictures though... thank you for posting.  

GarryB wrote:

Oh sorry Embarassed  , i really confused about some SAMs pictures , i'll search again Smile

Sorry my friend... I was just being silly... SA-11/SA-17... only SOC would notice the difference...   

Thanks for the photos and please feel free to post them as you get them.

I do hope Egypt will prosper and develop in a healthy and positive way for Egyptians.