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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:50 pm

    Russian MoD got serial production MIG-35s in 2019 and 2020. And, i believe they didn't have AESA, as it still wasn't ready back then. Considering that, there were no follow up orders in the last 5 years, is  everything one needs to know about opinion military has in regard to these planes.
    IMO, they should use airworthy MIG-29s, as they  already have them, for help with battling Ukrainian drones and missiles over Russian territory behind front lines. And keep Sukhoi planes for frontline  duty. That's all.


    Last edited by caveat emptor on Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:14 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mir wrote:

    BTW - we all know why it took so long to develop aircraft throughout the 90's. However my point is that all those designs are now dated - and this includes the Su-35 as well as the Mig-35.

    Not really.
    Boeing has just rolled out a "brand new gamechanger" - a pimped-up F-15.
    Is it dated? Very Happy

    Actually it is.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:24 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:Russian MoD got serial production MIG-35s in 2019 and 2020. And, i believe they didn't have AESA, as it still wasn't ready back then. Considering that there was no follow up orders in the last 5 years is  everything one needs to know about opinion military has in regard to these planes.
    IMO, they should use airworthy MIG-29s, as they are already have them, for help with battling Ukrainian drones and missiles over Russian territory behind front lines. And keep Sukhoi planes for frontline  duty. That's all.



    It looks like the MiG-35 is not very much appreciated or needed by the Russian MoD. It was an aggressively pushed propaganda agenda by the former MiG CEO, who now works for Sukhoi. The war in 2022 put a stop to all of this.

    The biggest joke is that, according to MiG fans, there are manned production lines for MiG-35 and all details are in mass production. Yeah, right. No need to start a new project or have massive engineering and skilled workforce. They just stand by waiting until the MoD finally reads this forum and understands what's best for them!




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    Post  GarryB Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:23 am

    Once again I never said that the Su-75 is a carbon copy of the Su-57.

    I appreciate what you are saying... they don't have to invent new parts, this new light plane shares commonality with the larger heavier aircraft, which means it doesn't have to be designed and developed from scratch, but as has been said by myself and others the configuration is different.

    Those control surfaces above the engine intakes... levicons I think they are called... essentially canards but without all the problems of canards, plus and those horizontal tail surfaces and that wide flat underbody with two spaced engines with TVC.... it is different compared with the Su-75s current and previous configuration.

    Even the wing planform looks different, and the roles and uses of the aircraft are likely to be different meaning flight performance and profiles are going to be different too...

    This is not Su-57 passed all the tests so we wont bother testing the Su-75, plus I suspect the new light 5th gen fighter is going to be reoriented to have a more multirole task list with a lot more looking for smaller air targets and also ground targets.

    This plane is your light numbers plane which might find itself chasing down incoming guided weapons of all type, and probably drones too... even if it does not shoot them all down itself, it will be using its radar and datalinks to friendly forces so that any nearby air defence units can use its data to shoot down air threats it might not have been able to detect from its position.

    I like the aircraft... it is just not ready and wont be ready for 8 to 10 years and that is assuming the countries that invest in it can decide the important stuff and haggle for 3 or 4 years before splitting up into separate versions of the plane in groups.

    - they have actually used the wing design of the Su-57 for the Su-75.

    It hasn't flown yet, they don't have a wing design yet, but even if they did without the horizontal tail surfaces and without the levicons and without the body lift from the two spaced engines the aerodynamics is going to be totally different, and they are going to have to test it with and without ordinance or material in each and all of the internal weapon bays as well as external ordinance... they have a lot of work ahead of them.

    The MiG-35 is in service.

    What I said was that they used some components from the Su-57 design (as above) - including the engine and undercarriage. As for internal systems and subsystems - we'll I would bet that most of those are copied straight from the Su-57 design.

    Which would be a good thing from production perspectives, but a bad thing from a design perspective. If you take half the engine out of a big heavy muscle car and put half the engine and transmission and other drive train components from that big car into a small car unless you scale it down the axles are going to poke out and the wheels are going to look ridiculous. If the Big Muscle car essentially had two V4 engines creating a V8 type engine then putting one V4 into the smaller car makes sense but most of the other things wont make sense because the smaller car is smaller.

    Wing mirrors and ash trays would be fine but the windows might need to be scaled down or the little car might end up looking like a glasshouse.

    BTW - we all know why it took so long to develop aircraft throughout the 90's. However my point is that all those designs are now dated - and this includes the Su-35 as well as the Mig-35.

    The aircraft of HATO are all dated too, you don't need an X wing fighter to do the jobs these aircraft need to do.

    The F-15EX is indeed a pimped up somewhat stealthy F-15, and yes the design is dated - but like the Mig-35, the Su-35, the F-15EX IS NOT obsolete. There is a difference you know.

    The sole reason why the US is buying retro is because they can't put the F-22 back in production - so they will use this interim design until their 6th gen is available.

    So it is OK for the USAF leader of the free world with bottomless pockets when it comes to war and spending on military aggression... who knows what their military budget will be this year and add on the CIA budget for wars and starting wars around the world it will be over 1 trillion dollars and remain high while they replace all the stuff the Russians have destroyed in Ukraine and Syria.

    The US does not have a 6th gen fighter ready to put into serial production.

    Well guess what... Russia does not have a light 5th gen fighter to put into serial production either, and Russia needs a cheap numbers fighter more than the west does...

    Also their 5th gen fighters proved to be extremely expensive to produce (never mind maintain). If they want them to be more affordable, they will have to buy Chinese copies, but as you know, the US is planning for a war against the PRC - which complicates matter somewhat.

    So if the USAF is rejection the western worlds only production 5th gen fighter (F-35) and is putting 4th gen fighters back into production then doesn't that mean the MiG-35 and Su-35 are not dated at all and showed good forethought as they are both in serial production yet remain cheap to buy and do not break the bank in operational costs.

    AND quite notably the very first F-15EX was delivered to a Air National Guard unit in Portland a couple of days ago

    So it is clearly not a new direction they want to head in... it is a gap filler that is more affordable than aircraft that are not ready yet.

    Sounds familiar.

    @GarryB It's funny to see you say it's not a real plane because it foesn't fly. You said exactly the opposite for the two Mig models that are just toys exposed in a meeting.

    We know Sukhoi is looking for export customers and they have told us the Su-75 has not flown yet.

    MiG have not said whether their aircraft prototypes, which they presented as models have flown yet or been built as prototypes or are about to enter serial production too.

    Absence of information is not evidence of anything.

    That's because those are models from MiG

    When Sukhoi got the contract to make the heavy 5th gen fighter we now know as the Su-57 it was said MiG would make the light fighter... it was also said because funding was not available for everything and anything that they would start funding the light 5th gen fighter when the heavy 5th gen fighter entered serial production.... the Su-57 is in service and has entered serial production.

    And, i believe they didn't have AESA, as it still wasn't ready back then.

    It is an operational aircraft... such things are generally not reported. What any of us believes is not really relevant, but if they made 200 I would say a couple might have experimental AESA radars for development purposes while the rest had conventional radars till the new AESA designs were operating properly and performing better than the much cheaper existing types.

    With them only making 6 planes I would guess they were making 36 and were going to put AESA radars for testing on 6 of them and then realised that it was a very important part of the plane so why not just make 6 and focus on getting that AESA radar developed and working properly and then once it works decide whether to put these aircraft into full serial production to get numbers (which is what a light fighter is for), or to wait for the next gen 5th gen light fighter from MiG or Yak or even Sukhoi if their plane turns out to be the best.

    Considering that, there were no follow up orders in the last 5 years, is everything one needs to know about opinion military has in regard to these planes.

    There would not be follow up orders until they had taken the time to actually test them and fully evaluate their performance in a number of different situations and roles.

    IMO, they should use airworthy MIG-29s, as they already have them, for help with battling Ukrainian drones and missiles over Russian territory behind front lines. And keep Sukhoi planes for frontline duty. That's all.

    Most problems with AESA radars is production related... they wont make big leaps in performance and quality without having them in service in decent numbers.

    It is only when you have to make millions of AESA elements that new materials and better more efficient ways of making them are found to speed up production and reduce the dud rate.

    It will be expensive to begin with but over time the price will drop dramatically and the quality and performance will improve and they will be putting them on everything... including AAMs and Air to Ground missiles.

    Actually it is.

    It is like the Su-35 and Su-30 are. Ironic that such dated aircraft are probably superior to most of the Euro canards that are slightly newer...

    The biggest joke is that, according to MiG fans, there are manned production lines for MiG-35 and all details are in mass production. Yeah, right. No need to start a new project or have massive engineering and skilled workforce. They just stand by waiting until the MoD finally reads this forum and understands what's best for them!

    MiG tends to get its components from different suppliers... radar, engines and other parts come from companies that don't do a lot of work with Sukhoi, which means the product ranges they have that go into MiG productions are not currently stretching their production capacity right now...

    If MiG was to thrash out 200 MiG-35s would there be 400 engines from Saturn to power them?

    Klimov could probably make that many in the time it takes to make that many planes... they have been making engines for Chinese planes and planes for Pakistan.

    Engines that are just modified RD-33s.

    The real biggest joke is that Mir wants to stop production of Su-57s so they can start making Su-75s... when they come flying off the production lines they will have to do all the testing and measurements before they hit the ground because it will be the first time they have flown. Razz

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    Post  lancelot Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:25 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:It looks like the MiG-35 is not very much appreciated or needed by the Russian MoD. It was an aggressively pushed propaganda agenda by the former MiG CEO, who now works for Sukhoi. The war in 2022 put a stop to all of this.

    The biggest joke is that, according to MiG fans, there are manned production lines for MiG-35 and all details are in mass production. Yeah, right. No need to start a new project or have massive engineering and skilled workforce. They just stand by waiting until the MoD finally reads this forum and understands what's best for them!
    The MiG-35 uses different suppliers than the Su-57. Engines, sensors, electronics, etc. So it is highly likely they could increase its production without impacting other weapons programs.
    The Sokol plant from what I understand is still upgrading MiG-31s to the MiG-31BM and other modernized standards. They are testing a MiG-31 with fly by wire. And they are making components for civilian aircraft. For example they are making airplane doors for the SJ-100 and the MC-21.
    https://ruavia.su/mig-31-interceptors-returned-to-the-russian-air-force-after-modernisation/
    https://ruavia.su/sokol-aircraft-plant-is-included-in-the-programme-of-cooperation-for-the-production-of-ms-21-aircrafts/

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:40 am

    GarryB wrote:This is not Su-57 passed all the tests so we wont bother testing the Su-75

    AND that is exactly why they are building prototypes right now.

    GarryB wrote:It hasn't flown yet, they don't have a wing design yet

    But they do have a wing design - have you not seen the static on display!? It came with wings attached. That wing design is the exact design that they have used on the Su-57.

    Even the "new" modified wing is still the same design with a bit added at the tail end.

    Have you heard of TsAGI? It's a huge facility where they do wind tunnel testing. Here they can determine the exact flight parameters of a particular design long before they start building an actual prototype. So I don't think the Su-75 will have any problems getting airborne.

    GarryB wrote:If you take half the engine out of a big heavy muscle car and put half the engine and transmission and other drive train components from that big car into a small car...

    I can definitely see the problem here...but fortunately they have installed a complete engine on the Su-75. We have to thank the Sukhoi designers for not making that little mistake! What a Face

    GarryB wrote:The aircraft of HATO are all dated too, you don't need an X wing fighter to do the jobs these aircraft need to do.

    They are in the process of replacing those dated aircraft (the F-16) with the F-35 that is apparently a 5th gen stealth fighter. Whether the F-35 is useless or not doesn't matter. What matters is, is that the Russians stay ahead of the game - esp since they have fewer numbers atm.

    GarryB wrote:Well guess what... Russia does not have a light 5th gen fighter to put into serial production either

    But they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but it will be ready in a few years from now. It makes no sense to invest in a Mig design that is not only dated, but cost nearly 50 million US$ a piece. Double the price of a Su-75 at 25-30 million! Why would you invest in it if you can get a brand new 5th gen fighter for half the price? I'm sure the new Defense Minister with his financial background would be able to come to the same conclusion.

    GarryB wrote:and Russia needs a cheap numbers fighter more than the west does
    Exactly my point above! The Mig is not cheap at all, but the Su-75 is. AND that's the export price. Just imagine how cheap the Su-75 will be for the Russians!

    The math is simple. It's like two Ferrari's for the price of one Skoda. The Skoda design is dated but it can still get you from A to B. But heck I'll reluctantly have to take the two Ferrari's since they are on special!  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:55 am

    ... but you are putting all the eggs, to the same basket.

    Having an independent MiG design team with its historical cooperation and supply net gives you redundancy.
    What started the absurdity of US prices, was swallowing alternative suppliers by expanding Boeing monster.
    80 years ago there were a FEW potential suppliers capable of designing, producing, and delivering/maintaining a modern fighter jet.
    At the time, jet planes were being replaced each decade, with new designs coming out every 3-4 years, independently for AF, Navy and NG/Marine.
    The same was a situation in the Soviet Union - multiple design teams, competing with each other.
    Usually more at political and protege lever rather than technical, but still...
    Imagine that in the 50s, every project of a plane replacement was an open competition among 3-4 independent producers. Each having his own cooperative. Each being technically capable of providing top notch solutions.
    Was that a pro or a cone?

    And good luck transporting you new Ikea wardrobe with Ferrari Twisted Evil Laughing

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:01 am

    Well it is ONE basket - The United Aircraft Corporation.

    It is unfortunate but it is the reality in a market economy. If you can't compete you're out.

    Yeah man I would have loved that Skoda - but what can I do - business is business thumbsup

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:47 am

    Mir wrote:Well it is ONE basket - The United Aircraft Corporation.

    It is unfortunate but it is the reality in a market economy. If you can't compete you're out.

    Yeah man I would have loved that Skoda - but what can you do - business is business thumbsup

    It Is one umbrella, but each design buro has each own suppliers.

    Or you also suggest that Saturn should fagocitate Klimov, that
    Tikhomirov should take over Phazotron, etc etc.

    Furthermore business is often blind and does not care about the medium and long term consequences.

    Boeing and Lockheed can think that now that they have the monopoly in the US they are better off than in the past. I believe most Americans (including military pilots) regret not having other alternatives...

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 11:03 am

    Quite right, but the point is apparent here. Despite the "super secret models" that MiG displayed, they have been unable to produce anything NEW in over two decades. If they don't come up with something soon - they will disappear.

    They are barely holding on with the basic trainer design. A "nothing burger" by Garry's standards.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:45 pm

    And it is a government job to make them not to disappear.
    Every single country has a list of strategic enterprises that have to operate, no matter if those are profitable or not.
    Those will be subsidized if needed, as carry some important know how, or production facilities, or whatever.
    If you are to switch that all to the "market rules", you will find out one day that all the nitrocellulose is coming from China Laughing
    And you can yap all day long, but it won't change the reality that to increase the ammo production, you need to start with opening lines for very base components.
    Which is a chemical plant operating in chemical reactions you don't even have skilled personnel.
    And the last guy who dealt with technology is 70 years old Laughing
    So are the patents on hand - made in the 70s.
    Want to ask me if I am joking now? Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:18 pm

    Honestly I would love to see the Mikoyan OKB survive, but you can't be on the government's pay role and not do anything useful for decades.
    Well over here its not a problem at all! Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Jun 24, 2024 1:38 pm

    They kept floating, with not much central spending - my guess is that as a subcontractor.
    And still doing some R&D, no matter if we find it brilliant and progressive or stagnant, honestly.
    It is already something, I know companies where subsidies are measured with nine zero numbers to keep them on the surface without doing perfectly nothing. Too big to fall does not addressed solely to the financial system bro Very Happy

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:00 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    The MiG-35 uses different suppliers than the Su-57. Engines, sensors, electronics, etc. So it is highly likely they could increase its production without impacting other weapons programs.
    The Sokol plant from what I understand is still upgrading MiG-31s to the MiG-31BM and other modernized standards. They are testing a MiG-31 with fly by wire. And they are making components for civilian aircraft. For example they are making airplane doors for the SJ-100 and the MC-21.
    https://ruavia.su/mig-31-interceptors-returned-to-the-russian-air-force-after-modernisation/
    https://ruavia.su/sokol-aircraft-plant-is-included-in-the-programme-of-cooperation-for-the-production-of-ms-21-aircrafts/

    Then it's even worse!  then you need to build assembly lines, streamline processes and train people if you can find them... please tell me what exact difference is between Su-75 production and MiG-35 in terms of resources and time? i don't see much.  But it's not important, important is that MoD doesn't seem to see any necessity for MiG-35....




    Mir wrote:Quite right, but the point is apparent here. Despite the "super secret models" that MiG displayed, they have been unable to produce anything NEW in over two decades. If they don't come up with something soon - they will disappear.

    They are barely holding on with the basic trainer design.  A "nothing burger" by Garry's standards.

    For last almost 2 decades MiG-35 is the best fighter didnt you know? neither did MoD lol1 lol1 lol1


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:06 pm

    ALAMO wrote:They kept floating, with not much central spending - my guess is that as a subcontractor.
    And still doing some R&D, no matter if we find it brilliant and progressive or stagnant, honestly.
    It is already something, I know companies where subsidies are measured with nine zero numbers to keep them on the surface without doing perfectly nothing. Too big to fall does not addressed solely to the financial system bro Very Happy  

    They won't fail. They're part of UAC and yes, there is R&D going on - both to keep the MiG-31 up to date but, first of all, to design/test/make the MiG-41. That is one of the reasons, in my opinion, behind the lack of interest in the legacy MiG-35. Would you take engineers from the MiG-31/41 lines to build a low output rate MiG-35?

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:28 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    The MiG-35 uses different suppliers than the Su-57. Engines, sensors, electronics, etc. So it is highly likely they could increase its production without impacting other weapons programs.
    The Sokol plant from what I understand is still upgrading MiG-31s to the MiG-31BM and other modernized standards. They are testing a MiG-31 with fly by wire. And they are making components for civilian aircraft. For example they are making airplane doors for the SJ-100 and the MC-21.
    https://ruavia.su/mig-31-interceptors-returned-to-the-russian-air-force-after-modernisation/
    https://ruavia.su/sokol-aircraft-plant-is-included-in-the-programme-of-cooperation-for-the-production-of-ms-21-aircrafts/

    Then it's even worse!  then you need to build assembly lines, streamline processes and train people if you can find them... please tell me what exact difference is between Su-75 production and MiG-35 in terms of resources and time? i don't see much.  But it's not important, important is that MoD doesn't seem to see any necessity for MiG-35....

    Then the question is: are the MiG-29M/MiG-35 assembly lines in Sokol separated from those of the mig31 modernisation?

    Probably yes, since in the past mig 29 and mig31 were produced at the same time.

    Aviastar had separated production lines for An-124 and Tu-204, irkut has separated production lines for MC-21 and su-30 and Knaapo has separated and independent production lines for SSJ100 and Su-35/su-57.

    Second question.
    Are there enough trained fitters and manufacturing engineers for the job?
    If not, they just need to train more. If someone has already experience in the sector they do not need 1 year to become competent with that particolar aircraft.

    If there is a lack of personnel, including aircraft fitters, they need to train more anyway because they will be needed for other projects and when the mig-35 assembly is finished they can easily be transferred to newer projects (including the mug uts trainer or later the mig41) in Sokol or even given the possibility to go to another plant to work on a different project, if they want.

    They won't fail. They're part of UAC and yes, there is R&D going on - both to keep the MiG-31 up to date but, first of all, to design/test/make the MiG-41. That is one of the reasons, in my opinion, behind the lack of interest in the legacy MiG-35. Would you take engineers from the MiG-31/41 lines to build a low output rate MiG-35?
    The mig 41 is not in production. The kind of personnel you need in the mig41 development phase is different by the one from production.

    It is not that you put the aerodynamic or structural engineer to be the fitter.

    You may have designers who have also experience in manufacturing, but in that case they will be manufacturing engineers or build planners, not fitters who actually do the manual jobs.

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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3 - Page 2 Empty Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    The MiG-35 is in service.


    with whooping 6 pieces! So if Su-75 will have 6 porotypes there will be a hards choice for you right?






    BTW - we all know why it took so long to develop aircraft throughout the 90's. However my point is that all those designs are now dated - and this includes the Su-35 as well as the Mig-35.

    The aircraft of HATO are all dated too, you don't need an X wing fighter to do the jobs these aircraft need to do.

    of course  F-22 is dated yet still better than MiG-35 in every aspect.  F-35 is made 120/per year?  is better too. And new 6 gen NGAD / FA/XX is way beyond MiG-35 it's like you opt in 1940 to increase production of I-153 against Me-109. Not go for Yak-1





    The US does not have a 6th gen fighter ready to put into serial production.

    Well guess what... Russia does not have a light 5th gen fighter to put into serial production either, and Russia needs a cheap numbers fighter more than the west does...

    No, but you can be sure that before any MiG-35 would be made in numbers, 6th generation is already there. As for the light fighter, exactly - that's why the Su-75 is the answer.





    Considering that, there were no follow up orders in the last 5 years, is  everything one needs to know about opinion military has in regard to these planes.

    There would not be follow up orders until they had taken the time to actually test them and fully evaluate their performance in a number of different situations and roles.

    so actually MiG 35 is NOT operational but only in testing?  taking into account dated avionics...



    GB wrote:
    Actually it is.

    It is like the Su-35 and Su-30 are. Ironic that such dated aircraft are probably superior to most of the Euro canards that are slightly newer...

    But of course they are, the difference is they are mass produced atm, there are facilities, contractos, workers and engineers to make them.




    GB wrote:
    The biggest joke is that, according to MiG fans, there are manned production lines for MiG-35 and all details are in mass production. Yeah, right. No need to start a new project or have massive engineering and skilled workforce. They just stand by waiting until the MoD finally reads this forum and understands what's best for them!

    MiG tends to get its components from different suppliers... radar, engines and other parts come from companies that don't do a lot of work with Sukhoi, which means the product ranges they have that go into MiG productions are not currently stretching their production capacity right now...


    number of engineers and workers is finite and pretty small. Production lines are undermanned and empty. Processes are not in place. But if thsi is no  problem for you it's ok but seems it is for the Russian MoD





    Engines that are just modified RD-33s.


    to again how many with thrust vector were made? 60 for naval aviation and 6 for MiG-35 in last 2 decades? im sure they could make 400 in years. Or maybe not?


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3 - Page 2 Empty Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:42 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    Then the question is: are the MiG-29M/MiG-35 assembly lines in Sokol separated from those of the mig31 modernisation?

    Probably yes, since in the past mig 29 and mig31 were produced at the same time.

    I would assume yes, they are. This mean they are empty and none is there. Nothing is made there for the last 5 years.





    Second question.
    Are there enough trained fitters and manufacturing engineers for the job?
    If not, they just need to train more. If someone has already experience in the sector they do not need 1 year to become competent with that particolar aircraft.


    If somebody has experience, then why is Sukhoi desperately hiring new unskilled people if there's an abundance of skilled technical staff? That's one of biggest problems. Machines and subcontractors is the other one.




    If
    there is a lack of personnel, including aircraft fitters, they need to train more anyway because they will be needed for other projects and when the mig-35 assembly is finished they can easily be transferred to newer projects (including the mug uts trainer or later the mig41) in Sokol or even given the possibility to go to another plant to work on a different project, if they want.

    are you serious?
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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:56 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    to again how many with thrust vector were made? 60 for naval aviation and 6 for MiG-35 in last 2 decades? im sure they could make 400 in years. Or maybe not?

    If you're talking about MiG then it is much worse than you think. None for the naval Mig-29K and none for the Mig-35. There is only one Mig-29 fitted with TV's and that is the Mig-29OVT development aircraft. TVC is however optional for the Mig-35 but no takers so far. Neutral

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    If somebody has experience, then why is Sukhoi desperately hiring new unskilled people if there's an abundance of skilled technical staff? That's one of biggest problems. Machines and subcontractors is the other one.

    Because for many years they had less work and money and in the recent past Irkut has taken a lot of qualified personnel from other plants (justly so because they offered a much better pay and more interesting work).

    Each large company, especially if working in strategic sector for the state, has the duty to train new workers.
    This includes also 19years old guys straight out of school or could even be a young mason (provided he has finished school) and has the capabilities, who want to try a career in aerospace.

    As an example airbus offers apprenticeships for such candidates which last a few years and train the new apprentice into a skilled worker. Some of these programmes also give to some of the apprentices even the possibility to pursue a technical degree.


    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    there is a lack of personnel, including aircraft fitters, they need to train more anyway because they will be needed for other projects and when the mig-35 assembly is finished they can easily be transferred to newer projects (including the mug uts trainer or later the mig41) in Sokol or even given the possibility to go to another plant to work on a different project, if they want.

    are you serious?

    Of course, now in Russia there is a large need of skilled workers in the aerospace sector and each firm should contribute to their training.

    It is not that they can make them from thin air in 2030.

    The same thing should happen in the shipbuilding industry.


    Question, how can MiG think about producing mig41 in a few years if the situation is so dire?

    In that case a subvention for an order for a few dozen Mig35 can help also train and retain personnel and slowly increase also the request for their supply chain.
    Otherwise if the request comes abruptly later we see all kinds of retards, like for the increase of product rate of Tu-214 from Kazan or the issues with the shipbuilding suppliers for several new project for the russian navy.


    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3 - Page 2 Empty Re: MiG-29/ΜiG-35 Fulcrum: News #3

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:16 pm

    NGAD got cancelled 2 days ago, the USAF is switching to F15X and F35 for their loyal wingman project

    There’s just nothing to prove that su75 will cost 25 million and MiG35 will cost 50 million, more made up cope by fanboys

    Obviously MiG35 will be cheaper as it is not a 5th gen plane

    If you can have a working su75 with AL51 and some new AESA radar we have not heard of yet, then by all means, order it

    But it’s not going to happen in the next decade, and it’s not going to happen for cheap - they need to focus on su57 production and possibly even raising the order from 76 to 150 or even 200

    If you gonna have a 5th/6th gen aircraft might as well make it the best one

    As USAF realized with F22 and NGAD debacle , it was never possible for them to forego F22 and now they have to work with F15X

    For Russia they shouldn’t just stop at 76 su57 , they could end up like the US - with a much worse light 5th gen plane that can’t do what su57 does and then have to settle for Su35X2

    Just keep su57 lines open and get your own fighter numbers higher by using MiG35

    If your biggest threats will be F35 and F15X, you already have su57 + S70 for them, and then MiG31 for kinzhal and AWACS/Tanker killer and then su35 and su30 for lower threat

    MiG35 would be for simpler patrol and defense missions and occasional bomb/missile truck duty nearby to its bases

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:39 pm

    The figures I referred to are official export price tags. In 2011 the Mig-35 was priced at 45 million. Its a tad bit more expensive now. Recently I saw it priced at 48.6 million. By now it should be very close to 50.

    Sukhoi officially quoted 25-30 million. One can expect the Russian to pay less but the overall margins would be be similar.

    As far as the NGAD goes. If you have a trillion US at your disposal and you still have to cancel something that should be an urgent requirement, then you have a much bigger problem going on. Btw - they also dropped their vaunted hypersonic missile and they have huge problems with the MAX. To me it does appear that the US has run out of skilled engineers and designers.

    That's the price you pay for endless wars and importing unskilled labour.

    Same thing happens when you sit on your ass for decades.

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    Post  Arrow Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:47 pm

    The US canceled NGAD. Shocked

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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 24, 2024 4:33 pm

    I don't think it's cancelled yet but there is some tough decisions to be made for either a yes or a no. It's sort of hanging on by it's nails.
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jun 24, 2024 4:41 pm

    Mir wrote:I don't think it's cancelled yet but there is some tough decisions to be made for either a yes or a no. It's sort of hanging on by it's nails.

    It’s dead, even US fanboys are weeping

    And yes they gave up due to the failure of the Tech Refresh III

    They couldn’t do a software update because of the bugs inherent to the C language used

    They should have stuck with ADA but it seems this will be the excuse to stop F35 production

    They do this all the time

    That’s why this alarm over “1000” f35 is a joke

    Without tech refresh III they will cancel it just like they cancel NGAD

    MiG35 is not needed to fight 1000 non existent F35 with non working software, nor vaporware NGAD

    It’s needed for a practical and low end mission

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