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franco
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magnumcromagnon
ALAMO
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Mir
walle83
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lancelot
limb
GarryB
Isos
52 posters
Russian Navy: Status and News #6
ALAMO- Posts : 7075
Points : 7165
Join date : 2014-11-25
Mir- Posts : 3506
Points : 3508
Join date : 2021-06-10
Actually they are building more Zumwalts but they are sooo stealthy we can't see it! 
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ALAMO- Posts : 7075
Points : 7165
Join date : 2014-11-25
It still would be progress, for a country that is masquerading SM6 missiles for "hypersonic weapon", to put some food for own shitstream, admit.
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Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
Points : 1014
Join date : 2016-11-13
RTN wrote:U.S builds 2 Virgina Class SSN a year. From this year we will build 3 SSNs a year. Arleigh Burke and Zumwalt class destroyers are being build @ 1 every year. What are you even talking about.lancelot wrote:The Chinese are the world's largest shipbuilder. Larger than South Korea or Japan. So it is hardly surprising they can build a ship quickly.
And no the US is nowhere near the top 3.
At the moment the 2/year sub is a stretch.
And that isthe current speed of the Russian shipbuilding, so building only that much keep up with Russia, and whats about China : D
RTN- Posts : 743
Points : 718
Join date : 2014-03-24
Location : Fairfield, CT
Cancelled yes. But how long did it take for the US to build just one such ship. Two years.caveat emptor wrote:Isn't Zumwalt cancelled?
Every single upcoming surface combatant and submarine will be build within 2-3 years.
If Chinese systems are indeed so good as the paid Chinese trolls of this forum claim then why are China's major clients like Saudi Arabia, UAE Pakistan queuing up outside Pentagon to buy U.S weapons.
Mir- Posts : 3506
Points : 3508
Join date : 2021-06-10
Pakistan is indeed a major Chinese client, but Saudi-Arabia and UAE have always been major US arms buyers and seems to buy a few "foreign" hardware just to maintain good relations.
lancelot- Posts : 2872
Points : 2870
Join date : 2020-10-18
Mir wrote:Pakistan is indeed a major Chinese client, but Saudi-Arabia and UAE have always been major US arms buyers and seems to buy a few "foreign" hardware just to maintain good relations.
Those are US protectorates. Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
Krepost- Posts : 741
Points : 743
Join date : 2021-12-08
The Nestrashymyy.
Fully repaired. Fresh coat of paint will be applied when winter is over.
Fully repaired. Fresh coat of paint will be applied when winter is over.
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Dima- Posts : 1222
Points : 1233
Join date : 2012-03-22
Considering the situation that Russia is facing today, w.r.t the onslaught of white colonial forces, there is an urgent need for augmenting the surface fleet of the navy, without which Russia is likely to find itself in a difficult position to challenge harassment of Russian shipping and blockades.
Recent incident of the French hijacking Russian vessels is just one example. If that's not an eyeopener, yet another one is the statement by Macron of this crisis/war to continue for many years to come. If this is still not an eyeopener, there is nothing that can be done other than to, either surrender or embrace the MAD.
Russia policy makers and supporters & well wishers need to understand that the "world war" has already begun and this onslaught on Russia is going to continue for years to come, if the current situation doesn't already escalate to N-exchange with mutual destruction. In which case, there is nothing more to worry about.
I'm again saying, there is no time to waste. Concentrate on adding surface combatants.
What Russia needs urgently are not ships that are silver bullets, which are good to have, but Russia needs ships which are capable to hold their ground at multiple areas of operation.
I have been talking about it for many years and after the 2014 crisis as well. Can't find the earlier posts, so digging up one of my posts from 2016 to make my points again. Quoting a part of it..
Recent incident of the French hijacking Russian vessels is just one example. If that's not an eyeopener, yet another one is the statement by Macron of this crisis/war to continue for many years to come. If this is still not an eyeopener, there is nothing that can be done other than to, either surrender or embrace the MAD.
Russia policy makers and supporters & well wishers need to understand that the "world war" has already begun and this onslaught on Russia is going to continue for years to come, if the current situation doesn't already escalate to N-exchange with mutual destruction. In which case, there is nothing more to worry about.
I'm again saying, there is no time to waste. Concentrate on adding surface combatants.
What Russia needs urgently are not ships that are silver bullets, which are good to have, but Russia needs ships which are capable to hold their ground at multiple areas of operation.
I have been talking about it for many years and after the 2014 crisis as well. Can't find the earlier posts, so digging up one of my posts from 2016 to make my points again. Quoting a part of it..
https://www.russiadefence.net/t5090p25-udaloy-and-sovremennyy-destroyers#162807 wrote:The result of distributing the production of nuclear and conventional power plants between Russia and Ukraine is for all of us to see with Russian Navy starved of conventional propulsion units. Since N-propulsion represented the cream of the system, Soviet Russia mainly bothered about developing these units and associated systems inside Russia leaving the conventional units mainly to Soviet Ukraine.
From whats been talked about in other naval threads, the first of the Russian gas turbines for the frigates and destroyers will only arrive post 2020 which is way too late for a navy that kept its hope on arresting the capability decline on its 6 x 11356 and 6 x 22350 frigates.
And what if even the projected 2018-2020 target for gas turbines gets delayed? Doesn't Russian navy want any frigates or destroyers?
In this scenario, my humble opinion is to revisit the Pr.956 destroyers with the required modification (which anyway wont be time consuming and can run in parallel to procurement & hull laying) and order atleast 6 units (preferably 12) which can start entering service 5 years from now.
Dima- Posts : 1222
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Join date : 2012-03-22
In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one. The white colonial forces will look at tightening control in the Baltic and harass Russian shipping around the world considering Russian navy have a CRITICAL SHORTAGE of surface combatants.
1) Adding 12 - 24 units of Pr.956 by retaining the KVG based steam propulsion unit, but with new VLS configuration.
2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8750p300-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-3#363569
Need to restart the production of Pr.11356 at Zaliv, Baltisky, as well as Yantar.
I'm not considering the Pr.22350, coz its construction is still monopolized by the worst shipyard in Russia.
Below ones are even better, considering it will be from an ongoing smooth production line. Payment through natural gas.
3) 12-24 unit of Type-054A. The below one is the newer version with a universal VLS.
4) 12 units of Type-054A. EMERGENCY TRANSFER of these ships from PLAN service. The fastest route to fill shortage of escorts and for deployment.
Any talk of cost, etc in this case are rubbish and not worth the time wasted on it, Coz these are very critical needs.
Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.
.
1) Adding 12 - 24 units of Pr.956 by retaining the KVG based steam propulsion unit, but with new VLS configuration.
2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8750p300-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-3#363569
Need to restart the production of Pr.11356 at Zaliv, Baltisky, as well as Yantar.
I'm not considering the Pr.22350, coz its construction is still monopolized by the worst shipyard in Russia.
Below ones are even better, considering it will be from an ongoing smooth production line. Payment through natural gas.
3) 12-24 unit of Type-054A. The below one is the newer version with a universal VLS.
4) 12 units of Type-054A. EMERGENCY TRANSFER of these ships from PLAN service. The fastest route to fill shortage of escorts and for deployment.
Any talk of cost, etc in this case are rubbish and not worth the time wasted on it, Coz these are very critical needs.
Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.
.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Join date : 2016-11-06
I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.
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Dima- Posts : 1222
Points : 1233
Join date : 2012-03-22
Yes. That's the correct approach when building in Russia.
But that's just not enough. Also, Russian shipyards will take some time to get back to the pace required. That's why orders need to be placed with Chinese shipyards for a sizable number of Type-054A as well.
But on an urgent basis, there need to have an emergency transfer of 12 Type-054A frigates from the Chinese service in say 6 months time. Nothing lower and nothing higher, coz then PLAN will face shortage facing USN/allies
But that's just not enough. Also, Russian shipyards will take some time to get back to the pace required. That's why orders need to be placed with Chinese shipyards for a sizable number of Type-054A as well.
But on an urgent basis, there need to have an emergency transfer of 12 Type-054A frigates from the Chinese service in say 6 months time. Nothing lower and nothing higher, coz then PLAN will face shortage facing USN/allies
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
Dima wrote:In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one. The white colonial forces will look at tightening control in the Baltic and harass Russian shipping around the world considering Russian navy have a CRITICAL SHORTAGE of surface combatants.
1) Adding 12 - 24 units of Pr.956 by retaining the KVG based steam propulsion unit, but with new VLS configuration.
2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t8750p300-russian-special-military-operation-in-ukraine-3#363569
Need to restart the production of Pr.11356 at Zaliv, Baltisky, as well as Yantar.
I'm not considering the Pr.22350, coz its construction is still monopolized by the worst shipyard in Russia.
Below ones are even better, considering it will be from an ongoing smooth production line. Payment through natural gas.
3) 12-24 unit of Type-054A. The below one is the newer version with a universal VLS.
4) 12 units of Type-054A. EMERGENCY TRANSFER of these ships from PLAN service. The fastest route to fill shortage of escorts and for deployment.
Any talk of cost, etc in this case are rubbish and not worth the time wasted on it, Coz these are very critical needs.
Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.
.
Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).
11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects
And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type). In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....
Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries
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Dima- Posts : 1222
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Join date : 2012-03-22
I left out those shipyards for a specific reason. The specific reason being the workforce. The entire workforce will need to be sanitized before any construction can be started which might take time. Even then, some might filter in.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).
11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects
And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type). In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....
Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries
The problem with restarting construction in those shipyards without sanitizing could result in the someone gutting the ships under construction. It would be devastating if such a thing happen when the ship is at its final stages.
These shipyards will be added bonus for sure. But not critical. The most important thing is Zorya. Russia has enough shipyards including Zaliv nearby.
Once Russia manages to get these under control and in proper shape, the production can start. Not just for the 11356, 1164 (Yes!, shall elaborate later) and a parallel production for M90FR.
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GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Location : New Zealand
In my view few options that Russia needs to consider and act upon on an urgent basis, considering ships take time to arrive and the current crisis/war is going to be a long drawn one.
Hang on Dima... Micron said this would be a long drawn out thing... he also said Assad had to go...
The Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan and Putin can pull out of the Ukraine any time they like.... there is no requirement or commitment to stay for 20 years.
I do agree that the pivot away from the west will require extra investment and acceleration in their navy so that will be a bonus.
2) 12 - 24 units of Pr.11536. This should start once Zorya-Mashproekt comes under control of Russian forces.
That would anchor them in the Ukraine and for what?
The cost of restoring the production facilities in the Ukraine would cost more than the ships you would be building.
Let the Ukrainians rebuild their own shipyards and give them civilian vessels to build...
Russian Navy needs to start adding, at the least, 24 proper ocean going surface combatants of Frigates and Destroyer class in the next 3-5 years. The best start would be with the option 4.
I don't see that happening... we don't know what sort of problems these designs might be having... their propulsion systems might be awful... and most systems wont be compatible with Russian naval systems which would limit their usefulness.
But that's just not enough. Also, Russian shipyards will take some time to get back to the pace required. That's why orders need to be placed with Chinese shipyards for a sizable number of Type-054A as well.
I don't agree. Even 24 destroyers available now could not cover the worlds oceans... the west could simply monitor their locations and harrass ships where there is no close Russian navy presence.
I would ramp up frigate and corvette production and start to lay down some destroyers but it will be upgraded previous gen ships that will do the international work... the corvettes will free up the older larger vessels that could be upgraded better suited to long endurance long range missions with modest armament upgrades so older weapons can be retired to streamline the MIC.
What will stop the French from doing this sort of thing is doing it to them... perhaps even in places where illegal drugs or weapons supplies might be found so prosecutions could delay the release of the ships for very long periods.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
Dima wrote:I left out those shipyards for a specific reason. The specific reason being the workforce. The entire workforce will need to be sanitized before any construction can be started which might take time. Even then, some might filter in.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Well, once Nikolaev is in (Novo)russian hands, Russia can manage and rebuild the infrastructure there and assign the shipyards there to be temporarily managed by the main russian shipyards (like it has been done in Crimea).
11356 frigates would be a nice restarting points for the former communara61 shipyard (the one the built the Slava class cruisers), while russian shipyards in the Baltic sea can concentrate on the newer projects
And maybe instead the other shipyard (the one that used to build aircraft carriers), could be slowly restored and start at least at the beginning with landing ships (e.g. modified 11711 type). In addition there is another large civilian shipyard in Nikolaev and another one in Kherson....
Good for building oil tankers and cargo ships to improve trade with Asia and South American countries
The problem with restarting construction in those shipyards without sanitizing could result in the someone gutting the ships under construction. It would be devastating if such a thing happen when the ship is at its final stages.
These shipyards will be added bonus for sure. But not critical. The most important thing is Zorya. Russia has enough shipyards including Zaliv nearby.
Once Russia manages to get these under control and in proper shape, the production can start. Not just for the 11356, 1164 (Yes!, shall elaborate later) and a parallel production for M90FR.
Is the Slava class (project1164) cruiser Ucraina anchored in Nikolaev in acceptable state to be completed and modernised? I thought the hull was not in the best shape....
As far as the workforce, it will take a while to build it up, but they can start train new people and bring some workers from other parts of Russia in the meanwhile to help speed up the process.
lancelot- Posts : 2872
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Join date : 2020-10-18
Do not get your panties in a knot. While I would be ok with Russia ordering some Type 054A or Type 075 ships from China I think you are worrying about this too much. Russia's merchant marine is kind of in the small side. And any dealings with companies like Maersk can be replaced with the largest shipping company in the world. The Chinese COSCO. Let HATO try to impound COSCO ships. COSCO owns the largest container terminal in Los Angeles area (also only fully automated one). If they just stop processing cargo it will make US transport bottleneck get exponentially worse and you might see riots in the US when shelves become even more empty. Oh and forget paying the Chinese with gas the flow is still kind of small. It would likely be done with oil.
Russia should have had expanded Gorshkov class frigate construction to three shipyards instead of just one yesterday. They still have time to do it.
Russia should have had expanded Gorshkov class frigate construction to three shipyards instead of just one yesterday. They still have time to do it.
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GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Russia should have had expanded Gorshkov class frigate construction to three shipyards instead of just one yesterday. They still have time to do it.
I would guess the reason they haven't is because they have an upgraded enlarged design being laid down for testing... they laid down the original and tested it and used it for a bit and the upgraded enlarged version is the changes they wanted to the design.
In that situation I would think they couldn't mass produce these ships till they know the changes and improvements they made work and it now does what they want better and more efficiently.
So you want to expand production... which do you start producing in three shipyards?
The new untested one, or the old ones they clearly wanted to upgrade?
I would say take the time to get it right or you might end up like the USN with 3 useless Zumwalts and 17 useless LCS ships that need replacing despite their enormous costs.
For China, knowing that Russia will have large volumes of gas they no longer want to send to the EU, they might start expanding their use of gas... it is much cleaner burning than the coal fired power stations they normally rely on, and likely cheaper too.
The cheap energy in the form of gas is shifting from Europe to Asia... the implication on production costs will be interesting to see and the Middle East and US operators selling to the Asian market will be priced out of the game and will all have to shift to the European market to make their money.
Lots of European industries wont survive, while others will struggle on very low margins... but they will blame Russia of course...
Krepost- Posts : 741
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NEWS FROM SEVMASH
Krasnoyarsk (Yasen class) and Generalissimus Suvorov (Borei class) are preparing to go to sea.
Krasnoyarsk (Yasen class) and Generalissimus Suvorov (Borei class) are preparing to go to sea.
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
Points : 2591
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
At night on March 10, 2022, a detachment of Pacific Fleet ships was seen at the entrance to the Sangar Strait.
Later they passed the strait, moving southwest towards the Sea of Japan.
"Адмирал Пантелеев"
"Совершенный"
"Громкий"
"Гремящий"
"Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов"
"Игорь Белоусов"
Later they passed the strait, moving southwest towards the Sea of Japan.
"Адмирал Пантелеев"
"Совершенный"
"Громкий"
"Гремящий"
"Герой Российской Федерации Алдар Цыденжапов"
"Игорь Белоусов"
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Lurk83- Posts : 124
Points : 128
Join date : 2021-02-23
miketheterrible wrote:I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.
I don’t see why they couldn’t have china build hulls of Russian design with supervision from inspectors from Russian shipyards and maybe even engines (if it’s an existing Russia design then should be able to rengine it with Russian engines later during upgrade if necessary) and just fit out all weapons and electronic systems once the hills have been handed over to Russian shipyards. Surely this would speed things up significantly?
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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why would they need that?Lurk83 wrote:miketheterrible wrote:I would be all for Russia building Chinese ships so long as they use Russian weapons and electronics.
I don’t see why they couldn’t have china build hulls of Russian design with supervision from inspectors from Russian shipyards and maybe even engines (if it’s an existing Russia design then should be able to rengine it with Russian engines later during upgrade if necessary) and just fit out all weapons and electronic systems once the hills have been handed over to Russian shipyards. Surely this would speed things up significantly?
Russia needs money for its own shipyards and employment for its people. Hull building is the easiest part, as long as you have space in a shipyard and trained workers.
Well, now (after this war will end) 3 large shipyards in Nikolaev and one in Kherson (all of them were able to build large ships, even if 2 of them were only dedicated to civilian use even in Soviet time) will be available and inside a new novorossian state, even if the shipyards are in a dilapidated condition.
It would be preferable to spend a couple of years to do the same thing that has been done to the Crimean shipyards in order to bring them up to proper shape. And then possibly ordering ships from there. Bringing back Nikolaev to its former glory (shipyards and naval engineering academy) would for sure help with winning the hearts of the local inhabitants...
Possibly they can recover first one of the yards and have it initially produce new equipment for the others ( e.g large cranes) while they rebuild the infrastructure and train new workers.
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GarryB- Posts : 39672
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Would not fit in with their desire to denazify and demilitarise the Ukraine.
There is no reason to massively increase the size of the Russian fleet, the west is not at the point where it is even considering sinking Russian ships because they would lose that game... there is a hell of a lot more civilian and military western surface ship traffic than there is Russian and Russia has lots of submarines.... and missiles that can reach out and touch anything.
Russian corvettes would be harder for the west to sink than some of their destroyers... an as I said... the west has more to lose in this than Russia.
Over time Russias civil maritime fleet will expand and will need escorts to some regions, but they don't need surface action groups complete with aircraft carriers for that.
A destroyer and a support ship would be fine... especially if the support ship was a military vessel that carried anti sub helicopters and drones as well as supplies to keep the destroyer operating for long periods.
This larger destroyer design will also help in that regard too.
Those new direct hit to kill anti drone and anti munition (artillery shell or Grad rocket) missiles in the 10-20kg weight with a proximity fuse and its own terminal homing for precision and carried in enormous bundles of 100s of missiles would be an excellent way of dealing with all sorts of odd attacks and situations.
There is no reason to massively increase the size of the Russian fleet, the west is not at the point where it is even considering sinking Russian ships because they would lose that game... there is a hell of a lot more civilian and military western surface ship traffic than there is Russian and Russia has lots of submarines.... and missiles that can reach out and touch anything.
Russian corvettes would be harder for the west to sink than some of their destroyers... an as I said... the west has more to lose in this than Russia.
Over time Russias civil maritime fleet will expand and will need escorts to some regions, but they don't need surface action groups complete with aircraft carriers for that.
A destroyer and a support ship would be fine... especially if the support ship was a military vessel that carried anti sub helicopters and drones as well as supplies to keep the destroyer operating for long periods.
This larger destroyer design will also help in that regard too.
Those new direct hit to kill anti drone and anti munition (artillery shell or Grad rocket) missiles in the 10-20kg weight with a proximity fuse and its own terminal homing for precision and carried in enormous bundles of 100s of missiles would be an excellent way of dealing with all sorts of odd attacks and situations.
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lancelot- Posts : 2872
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The US has way more nuclear attack submarines. While they would have losses they would still win on that front.
In fact that seems to be their plan. Just look at this BS about selling nuclear attack submarines to Australia.
The Chinese will start to crank up their nuclear attack submarine production soon. But it would take them like two decades to get parity there.
Assuming the Chinese don't mess up the program in the first place.
In fact that seems to be their plan. Just look at this BS about selling nuclear attack submarines to Australia.
The Chinese will start to crank up their nuclear attack submarine production soon. But it would take them like two decades to get parity there.
Assuming the Chinese don't mess up the program in the first place.
Dima- Posts : 1222
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Its always good to see the chap coming home, more so, after those disturbing news about it getting hit with Ukranian rockets (not impossible) and sunk. But it definitely was a bit too worrying coz the least I would like to see is Russia, who already have a critical shortage of ships, loosing one.
RFN Vasiliy Bykov (368) Entering Sevastopol harbour on 16-03-2022.
RFN Vasiliy Bykov (368) Entering Sevastopol harbour on 16-03-2022.
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