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Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
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par far
jhelb
Isos
PapaDragon
miketheterrible
flamming_python
lancelot
11 posters
Can India invade and conquer Pakistan
lancelot- Posts : 1705
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Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Even if they did how would they pacify the riots which would happen afterwards? The whole reason Pakistan broke off from India in the first place was because it had a Muslim majority vs Hindu majority India. You would get funding to dissidents from all sorts of Arab nations everywhere. Plus Pakistan has nukes, and China is basically their ally. China shares a border with both and could easily come to Pakistan's aid if it really came to it. Although I think they would stick to material support unless it became really dire.
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lancelot wrote:Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Even if they did how would they pacify the riots which would happen afterwards? The whole reason Pakistan broke off from India in the first place was because it had a Muslim majority vs Hindu majority India. You would get funding to dissidents from all sorts of Arab nations everywhere. Plus Pakistan has nukes, and China is basically their ally. China shares a border with both and could easily come to Pakistan's aid if it really came to it. Although I think they would stick to material support unless it became really dire.
Besides the Kashmir region conflict, why do they hate each other, again?
flamming_python- Posts : 8295
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This whole thing goes back to the times of the Mughals and whatever. When the British left the Indian subcontinent, things went back to the times they were before them. Or tried to. Because before the British, it was the Muslim Mughals who dominated India
Pakistan is a nation which defines itself according to Islam and as a defender of Muslims, not according to its ethnic makeup. India is always worried that Pakistan can incite discontent and separatism within it, with Kashmir being the frontier, but if Kashmir is given up, then Pakistani influence can extend further, and inevitably will attempt to.
I don't think Pakistan itself is purposefully expansionist as such, it's just a consequence of how it defines itself as a nation. Which in turn is also unavoidable otherwise it could itself break up according to ethnic lines. More than anything in regard to the Pashtuns. The Pashtuns in the north were never happy about the Durand line defining the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan as it divided them as a people. Pakistan in turn has always tried to export Islamism to Afghanistan since the later's king was deposed so that that country has a unifying ideology with Pakistan itself and there won't be any problems for it.
So everyone is kind of a hostage of circumstances.
Pakistan is a nation which defines itself according to Islam and as a defender of Muslims, not according to its ethnic makeup. India is always worried that Pakistan can incite discontent and separatism within it, with Kashmir being the frontier, but if Kashmir is given up, then Pakistani influence can extend further, and inevitably will attempt to.
I don't think Pakistan itself is purposefully expansionist as such, it's just a consequence of how it defines itself as a nation. Which in turn is also unavoidable otherwise it could itself break up according to ethnic lines. More than anything in regard to the Pashtuns. The Pashtuns in the north were never happy about the Durand line defining the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan as it divided them as a people. Pakistan in turn has always tried to export Islamism to Afghanistan since the later's king was deposed so that that country has a unifying ideology with Pakistan itself and there won't be any problems for it.
So everyone is kind of a hostage of circumstances.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7403
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flamming_python wrote:This whole thing goes back to the times of the Mughals and whatever. When the British left the Indian subcontinent, things went back to the times they were before them. Or tried to. Because before the British, it was the Muslim Mughals who dominated India
Pakistan is a nation which defines itself according to Islam and as a defender of Muslims, not according to its ethnic makeup. India is always worried that Pakistan can incite discontent and separatism within it, with Kashmir being the frontier, but if Kashmir is given up, then Pakistani influence can extend further, and inevitably will attempt to.
I don't think Pakistan itself is purposefully expansionist as such, it's just a consequence of how it defines itself as a nation. Which in turn is also unavoidable otherwise it could itself break up according to ethnic lines. More than anything in regard to the Pashtuns. The Pashtuns in the north were never happy about the Durand line defining the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan as it divided them as a people. Pakistan in turn has always tried to export Islamism to Afghanistan since the later's king was deposed so that that country has a unifying ideology with Pakistan itself and there won't be any problems for it.
So everyone is kind of a hostage of circumstances.
I'm assuming you don't have much experience working Pakistanis. Most of them are diehard fanatics. All you read is calling Hindus "piss drinkers" regarding how cow pee is drank (not often).
Muslims were not native to Hindustan/Bharat. That all came from Muslim conquest. Add in the "mountain of skulls" and burying non Muslims in the walls they built, I would say the Indians (Hindus and Sikhs) have every right not to trust them. Pakistan consists of what is more or less rape babies and forced converted.
When Ghandi gave up ancestral land to make a "land for muslims", he willing let others stay which later started to make more problems. Give an inch, take a mile.
You can even see how former Hindu land becomes Muslim and its forced. Indonesia is such an example. Fears in India is well justified as they fear their culture will be wiped out entirely - a culture over 6k years old.
Pakistan is definitely expansionist. They tried with Iranian territory, they successfully done it to Afghanista territory and Belochistan is fighting for independence. Just look at East Pakistan (Bangladesh). That was rather very recent when it became a country. They fought for independence against Pakistan. Yet these same people (Bangladeshies) try their luck in Myanmar and cry foul when the Bhuddists fought back.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 12787
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Theoretically if they really commit to the project it would be doable
But it would be costly as hell and definitely not worth the blood and treasure
Isos- Posts : 10612
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Pakistan has nuks so no.
jhelb- Posts : 1056
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No! If India tries to do that then Arab nations will support Pakistan and more importantly China will get directly involved. India can't fight against China. China's economy is 5x that of India's.Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Already China has drawn up plans to carve out several smaller countries out of India.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-should-disintegrate-india-strategist-399631
par far- Posts : 3348
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Why would India want Pakistan? Pakistan is a bigger shithole than India.
The Pakistani economy is in the gutter.
The Pakistani economy is in the gutter.
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flamming_python- Posts : 8295
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jhelb wrote:No! If India tries to do that then Arab nations will support Pakistan and more importantly China will get directly involved. India can't fight against China. China's economy is 5x that of India's.Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Already China has drawn up plans to carve out several smaller countries out of India.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-should-disintegrate-india-strategist-399631
That's like, an article from 2009
No-one's demented enough to seriously consider such a plan in Beijing
ALAMO- Posts : 4443
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I will judge this.
India is a shithole big enough, to have no need for another shithole.
India is a shithole big enough, to have no need for another shithole.
GarryB- Posts : 35735
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All these white western people casting judgements on India... I have friends who visited India and had a good time... had a friend who visited London and got her throat cut in the street outside her apartment.
Obviously you people are heathens if you like to throw stones so much...
The fundamental premise is totally ignorant of the situation anyway... Pakistan and Bangledesh (East Pakistan) and India are separate countries for lots of very clear and concrete reasons.... creating chaos in all three countries to join them up makes no sense at all and would be like the British demanding direct rule over all her former colonies like New Zealand and Australia and Canada and the US of A... to which we would all tell them to **** off.
Obviously you people are heathens if you like to throw stones so much...
The fundamental premise is totally ignorant of the situation anyway... Pakistan and Bangledesh (East Pakistan) and India are separate countries for lots of very clear and concrete reasons.... creating chaos in all three countries to join them up makes no sense at all and would be like the British demanding direct rule over all her former colonies like New Zealand and Australia and Canada and the US of A... to which we would all tell them to **** off.
lyle6- Posts : 1624
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India mopped the floor with Pakistan in the couple of wars they fought so my money's on India. Doubly so, because India also gave us a surprisingly excellent Yennefer. Jai Hind! 
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jhelb- Posts : 1056
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The Chinese do long time planning. Last year they invaded India and India couldn't do a thing.flamming_python wrote:That's like, an article from 2009
No-one's demented enough to seriously consider such a plan in Beijing
So if they have said that in 2009 that's what they are planning. This would be a good thing. Pakistan needs to be disintegrated too.
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miketheterrible wrote:flamming_python wrote:This whole thing goes back to the times of the Mughals and whatever. When the British left the Indian subcontinent, things went back to the times they were before them. Or tried to. Because before the British, it was the Muslim Mughals who dominated India
Pakistan is a nation which defines itself according to Islam and as a defender of Muslims, not according to its ethnic makeup. India is always worried that Pakistan can incite discontent and separatism within it, with Kashmir being the frontier, but if Kashmir is given up, then Pakistani influence can extend further, and inevitably will attempt to.
I don't think Pakistan itself is purposefully expansionist as such, it's just a consequence of how it defines itself as a nation. Which in turn is also unavoidable otherwise it could itself break up according to ethnic lines. More than anything in regard to the Pashtuns. The Pashtuns in the north were never happy about the Durand line defining the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan as it divided them as a people. Pakistan in turn has always tried to export Islamism to Afghanistan since the later's king was deposed so that that country has a unifying ideology with Pakistan itself and there won't be any problems for it.
So everyone is kind of a hostage of circumstances.
I'm assuming you don't have much experience working Pakistanis. Most of them are diehard fanatics. All you read is calling Hindus "piss drinkers" regarding how cow pee is drank (not often).
Muslims were not native to Hindustan/Bharat. That all came from Muslim conquest. Add in the "mountain of skulls" and burying non Muslims in the walls they built, I would say the Indians (Hindus and Sikhs) have every right not to trust them. Pakistan consists of what is more or less rape babies and forced converted.
When Ghandi gave up ancestral land to make a "land for muslims", he willing let others stay which later started to make more problems. Give an inch, take a mile.
You can even see how former Hindu land becomes Muslim and its forced. Indonesia is such an example. Fears in India is well justified as they fear their culture will be wiped out entirely - a culture over 6k years old.
Pakistan is definitely expansionist. They tried with Iranian territory, they successfully done it to Afghanista territory and Belochistan is fighting for independence. Just look at East Pakistan (Bangladesh). That was rather very recent when it became a country. They fought for independence against Pakistan. Yet these same people (Bangladeshies) try their luck in Myanmar and cry foul when the Bhuddists fought back.
Muslims are cowards and hypocrites. They have been hating on Israel and delegitimizing it for 70 years, yet aren't saying a peep when it comes to China's treatment of its Uighurs. Egypt is even aiding and abetting China in repatriating Uighurs back to China.
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lancelot wrote:Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Even if they did how would they pacify the riots which would happen afterwards? The whole reason Pakistan broke off from India in the first place was because it had a Muslim majority vs Hindu majority India. You would get funding to dissidents from all sorts of Arab nations everywhere. Plus Pakistan has nukes, and China is basically their ally. China shares a border with both and could easily come to Pakistan's aid if it really came to it. Although I think they would stick to material support unless it became really dire.
India's military is much larger than that of Pakistan and it has almost 5 times as many people, though
miketheterrible- Posts : 7403
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Moose wrote:lancelot wrote:Cinderblock108 wrote:Is India powerful enough to invade and conquer Pakistan
Even if they did how would they pacify the riots which would happen afterwards? The whole reason Pakistan broke off from India in the first place was because it had a Muslim majority vs Hindu majority India. You would get funding to dissidents from all sorts of Arab nations everywhere. Plus Pakistan has nukes, and China is basically their ally. China shares a border with both and could easily come to Pakistan's aid if it really came to it. Although I think they would stick to material support unless it became really dire.
India's military is much larger than that of Pakistan and it has almost 5 times as many people, though
During the Kargil war, India kept losing outposts due to running out of ammunition and having to retreat. Issue was bad then with different guns taking different ammunition. Situation is worst now with all different types of guns in service with different calibers.
GarryB- Posts : 35735
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They seem to be standardising on both the 7.62x39mm and the HATO 5.56mm rounds.... the former for urban conflict and the latter in more open areas which suggests mountain based units would be using 5.56mm calibre weapons while in urban areas they are going to produce AK-203s to replace their AKMs currently used in the role.
They are also licence producing Ka-226Ts which should allow them to perform rapid resupply to isolated posts fairly easily in the near future.
They are also licence producing Ka-226Ts which should allow them to perform rapid resupply to isolated posts fairly easily in the near future.
Isos- Posts : 10612
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They didn't sign the contract about the kamov helicopter local production. They will just buy 60 of them directly in Russia
Sujoy- Posts : 2112
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Purchase of Ka-226 has been cancelled because Ka-226 is powered by a French engine and CAATSA sanctions mean France won't export those engines to Russia.GarryB wrote:They are also licence producing Ka-226Ts which should allow them to perform rapid resupply to isolated posts fairly easily in the near future.
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GarryB- Posts : 35735
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I am actually pleased about that... nothing against India at all, but I was worried it might turn into a repeat of what happened with the Mil Mi-2 where it was produced in eastern europe mostly, which created complications in Russia because it became their primary light helo and killed all development of light helicopters because using the Mi-2 was political rather than pragmatic.
When it is pragmatic then different light helicopter types suited to different roles makes sense, but when it is political when a communist ally is building a helicopter of your design that might be threatened if Mil or Kamov can make competitor light helicopters that will turn out better...
Ka-226s should be made in Russia... the Russian engines for them will be ready soon and they can cut France and now India out of the production chain and just make them in Russia.
Those two statements contradict each other... if India are going to buy from Russia then what engine will they use?
If they are going to buy the 60 helicopters from Russia and then the engines from France, then why not get a contract to make helicopters and buy the engines from France?
If the aircraft they are getting from Russia have Russian engines then there is no problem is there?
Interestingly the new Russian engines are supposed to be rather more powerful than the French engines and allow the aircraft to operate at much higher altitudes... which was important to India wasn't it?
When it is pragmatic then different light helicopter types suited to different roles makes sense, but when it is political when a communist ally is building a helicopter of your design that might be threatened if Mil or Kamov can make competitor light helicopters that will turn out better...
Ka-226s should be made in Russia... the Russian engines for them will be ready soon and they can cut France and now India out of the production chain and just make them in Russia.
They didn't sign the contract about the kamov helicopter local production. They will just buy 60 of them directly in Russia
Purchase of Ka-226 has been cancelled because Ka-226 is powered by a French engine and CAATSA sanctions mean France won't export those engines to Russia.
Those two statements contradict each other... if India are going to buy from Russia then what engine will they use?
If they are going to buy the 60 helicopters from Russia and then the engines from France, then why not get a contract to make helicopters and buy the engines from France?
If the aircraft they are getting from Russia have Russian engines then there is no problem is there?
Interestingly the new Russian engines are supposed to be rather more powerful than the French engines and allow the aircraft to operate at much higher altitudes... which was important to India wasn't it?
lancelot- Posts : 1705
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I personally find Klimov to be a bit of a mixed bag really. They fumbled around with the VK-800 for years with no end in sight. Their TV7-117 flamed out and caused the crash of the single Il-112 prototype. On the other hand they seem to have been able to get VK-2500 engine production going and even got the Al-222 engine in production. So they seem capable of producing Soviet era engine and even tweaking them somewhat like with the RD-33 variants. But their new engine designs have been a bit of a bust so far. I hope they get someone from Salyut/Saturn to clean house there or something like what happened at Aviadvigatel. Otherwise the much vaunted VK-800 and VK-1600 efforts might flounder.
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Sujoy- Posts : 2112
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I'm only quoting local media. Here is a link- India's "deep state" themselves suggested that Ka 226 is now stuck because of U.S sanctions.GarryB wrote:They didn't sign the contract about the kamov helicopter local production. They will just buy 60 of them directly in Russia
Purchase of Ka-226 has been cancelled because Ka-226 is powered by a French engine and CAATSA sanctions mean France won't export those engines to Russia.
Those two statements contradict each other... if India are going to buy from Russia then what engine will they use?
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/1477613316290019329?s=20
I will accept it, my use of the word "cancelled" in the previous post was incorrect. Maybe there is still a chance. However, Russia will have to find a Russian engine that can power the Ka-226.
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GarryB- Posts : 35735
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I personally find Klimov to be a bit of a mixed bag really. They fumbled around with the VK-800 for years with no end in sight.
Could possibly have been a little busy with the more important work of getting the new more powerful engine used in most Russian helicopters that replaced the engines formerly supplied by Motor Sich... not to mention the small jet engines for the new Russian jet trainers going too of course...
The Ka-27, Ka-50, Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-24 helicopter engines not only needed support but new replacement engines at the same time so making a new engine for the Ka-226 probably wasn't up very high on their priority list when supporting the engine the vast majority of Russian helicopters use and making an upgraded improved replacement for that engine might have kept them a little busy.
Their TV7-117 flamed out and caused the crash of the single Il-112 prototype.
Only one of them flamed out and if the auto feathering system had worked properly it should not have crashed at all.
New engines sometimes have issues.
On the other hand they seem to have been able to get VK-2500 engine production going and even got the Al-222 engine in production.
Almost like they had priorities that did not include the Ka-226... not a huge surprise really considering.
So they seem capable of producing Soviet era engine and even tweaking them somewhat like with the RD-33 variants.
You seem to think they show us everything they are doing... there is a plan for a 5th gen MiG-35 replacement that would need an RD-33 like engine in the 10-12 ton thrust range, which might be a 5th gen RD-33 or it might be a different engine... either way why do you think they would be telling us all about it?
But their new engine designs have been a bit of a bust so far.
China and Pakistan seem happy to put their RD-93 in a single engined fighter... suggests some confidence doesn't it?
I hope they get someone from Salyut/Saturn to clean house there or something like what happened at Aviadvigatel.
After all the years Saturn has been fucking around with ship propulsion systems I don't think they will be teaching anyone any time soon...
Otherwise the much vaunted VK-800 and VK-1600 efforts might flounder.
So what if they do... right now the VK-2500 and AI-222 are more important.
I'm only quoting local media. Here is a link- India's "deep state" themselves suggested that Ka 226 is now stuck because of U.S sanctions.
Are you going to cancel all upgrades to the Su-30MKI and also purchases of the S-400?
Because they are going to involve sanctions too...
And of course when you let the US dictate to you what you can or cannot buy your options wont get better, but they will get simpler...
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