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nomadski
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    Ex military firearms and their collector value today

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:15 am

    Ex military firearms and their collector value today Img_2310

    Found my old service weapon Cool

    Black one smack in the middle
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:06 am

    New Turkish grenade launchers belonging to Idlib militants

    Just a LAW 66mm rocket launcher... they are an old disposable rocket launcher widely used in the west.

    The side of it says HE rather than HEAT... is this a HE frag version?


    Note I deleted one post that had objectionable images posted on it.

    The forum rules state that images cannot be posted openly in threads that are not safe for work or might be objectionable.

    You can post image links to such images but those links must come with warnings about the photos the persons choosing to click on those links will be confronted with.

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    The Syrian and Russian armies entered the city of Sakhi el-Julan.

    I have a half dozen Mosin Nagant rifles, they cost between $50 and about $350, but now their prices are over $700.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Found my old service weapon Cool

    Black one smack in the middle

    Pretty similar to mine, except mine had a stock and was an AK-74
    avatar
    par far

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    Post  par far Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:27 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Found my old service weapon Cool

    Black one smack in the middle

    Does it work?

    You can use it to scare the security at the bank.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:52 am

    I think he meant he found a rifle that looked like his service rifle in that photo... they don't normally let you keep your service rifle when you period of service is over...
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:36 am

    I think there is a good market for Soviet era guns in the USA and Canada for hunting or home defence . I think that the SKS uses same round as AK47 . The 7.62x39 . I read that this round is useful for SKS , as hunting round for white tail Deer , for ethical clean kill around 165 meters . Reasonable distance to shoot without scopes . The mosin nagant is having , more of a long range gun for hunting at 400 meters or beyond . Good idea for Russian  company to recondition old guns and fit with plastic stock . But I found no decent scopes for them . With modern scope and reconditioned , could make tidy profit for North American market . Start up your own company . Mail order . Do they make rounds for mosin nagant ?
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:26 am

    nomadski wrote:I think there is a good market for Soviet era guns in the USA and Canada for hunting or home defence . I think that the SKS uses same round as AK47 . The 7.62x39 . I read that this round is useful for SKS , as hunting round for white tail Deer , for ethical clean kill around 165 meters . Reasonable distance to shoot without scopes . The mosin nagant is having , more of a long range gun for hunting at 400 meters or beyond . Good idea for Russian  company to recondition old guns and fit with plastic stock . But I found no decent scopes for them . With modern scope and reconditioned , could make tidy profit for North American market . Start up your own company . Mail order . Do they make rounds for mosin nagant ?

    There is a market for collectors but that's expensive guns to buy if you want actual russian one and not shitty knock offs. I own multiple Mosins of various types and AK's etc. So I know that market well.

    For killing deer, you can get a cheaper rifle that does the job more than fine.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:39 am

    So if the objective is simply to hunt using cheapest gun , then why prices going up for ex-military Soviet arms ? I think people buy guns not simply to hunt , but also as objects they value for it's brand name and reliability and workmanship and history . People buy expensive Nike trainers , where a 10 Dollar pair of sneakers would do ! This venture can start with little or no Capital and needing one or two part time employees . The Chinese already make the plastic butt stocks that one could buy and I have seen modern scopes fitted to them . So it is only a matter of inspection and assembly , needing few tools etc . NDT and  Bluing can be done at home with kits and there are a lot of ex-military arms rusting away .....
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:09 am

    In the 1980s and 1990s they were less than $300 NZ dollars in the shops and the ammo was the cheapest by quite a margin too because the Mosins are machine gun calibre rifles.

    Over time the new batches have dried up and the prices have increased... remember New Zealand had enormous numbers of old 303 rifles left over from WWI and WWII and the vast majority of those had their heavy wooden stocks cut down and the barrels were often slightly shortened for use as hunting rifles and they are here still on a massive scale, though the 303 ammo is much harder to come by and the hunting stuff is quite expensive... a couple of dollars a shot or more.

    With Europe having Russia under embargo we only get occasional shipments of Russian ammo which is the cheapest... 7.62x39mm is about $18 a box for hunting ammo... soft nose stuff. It is actually pretty hard to get Mosin ammo these days, but eventually the embargo will end and the flood gates will open again I hope.

    There were certainly no cheaper rifles in the 1980s, but these days you can't get semi auto military rifles these days.

    A Mosin, if you can get a decent one is as good as any 30 calibre western hunting round like the 308 winchester or 30-06 to most reasonable distances... but obviously these are military rifles designed for military accuracy so 3-4 MOA generally.

    My preferred deer rifle is a modified 1944 carbine with a suppressor on it you can fire safely without ear protection...

    Many people buy ex military rifles for hunting but ruin them by cutting down stocks and making changes that ruins any collector value... the rifle I put a suppressor on was a $65 rifle I originally bought for parts but after I scrubbed all the rust off it I found it was not in bad condition. $150 for a plastic stock and another $100 for a kit to cut the bold handle and replace it with an angled handle and a scope mount that was drilled and tapped to the receiver to take normal scopes and I had a rather decent, if very loud rifle, so I was thinking about suppressors for most of my guns so I took a leap and got one fitted for more than I had already spent on the entire rifle but it was very much well worth it...

    I have other rifles I didn't modify, an American made 303 and a few other Mosin rifles and carbines and they have tripled in value in the years I have had them.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:47 pm

    nomadski wrote:So if the objective is simply to hunt using cheapest gun , then why prices going up for ex-military Soviet arms ? I think people buy guns not simply to hunt , but also as objects they value for it's brand name and reliability and workmanship and history . People buy expensive Nike trainers , where a 10 Dollar pair of sneakers would do ! This venture can start with little or no Capital and needing one or two part time employees . The Chinese already make the plastic butt stocks that one could buy and I have seen modern scopes fitted to them . So it is only a matter of inspection and assembly , needing few tools etc . NDT and  Bluing can be done at home with kits and there are a lot of ex-military arms rusting away .....

    Not many people going to buy an expensive Mosin to hunt with is the point (sure you might find a few guys out of countless others who will). If you want a hunting rifle there are far cheaper options that are better than a gun that old. That is how it works in the states anyways other countries of course will be different.

    I said there is a market for them if you were listening, just that the market isn't for hunters but collectors. If you start modifying the gun with foreign parts etc it loses an immense amount of value.

    Collectors love their guns pure, as they were made with matching serial numbers. I for example will not buy an expensive gun for collecting purposes unless all the serials match and all parts are original. I have spent for example ten's of thousands of collars on an MG-42 that served in a Wermacht unit that fought American forces in France, do you think I would drop that much money on such a rare gun unless it was all original and didn't have matching numbers? hell no. I get offers averaging at 70k plus for that MG-42
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:36 pm

    These days in the west Mosin rifles are scarce and increasing in value, but in the 1980s and 1990s they were super cheap as was the ammo... in fact it was cheaper at the time than 303 ammo here so I bought a few of them.

    In terms of sporting rifles most decent sporting bolt action rifles will be 5-6 times the price... but obviously much more accurate and lighter to carry around the place.

    These days they are harder to find which increases the price which makes them less interesting for a cheap hunting rifle option... first of all because they are not cheap any more.

    They were made in enormous numbers so I doubt they are anywhere close to running out... even in Russia they are still selling Nagant revolvers in all sorts of forms and calibres.

    A large gun sales company tried to pull a fast one here in New Zealand... they had 1907 carbines for sale and they were only about $800... which is an astounding price if they were legitimate, but they are not. They only made a few hundred thousand 1907 carbines and they made them from period Mosin rifles, so there should not be any 1907 carbines with 1891/30 front sights or rear sights, and certainly none with round receivers, so it was pretty obvious from the beginning they were fake, but then again for someone like myself who as a couple of 1944 carbines and a 1939 carbine it is about my only chance of getting all the carbines... but in the end I didn't bother.

    The same company was also modifying the rifles to make sniper rifles which they could charge more for, which is just dishonest.

    In this day and age I am looking for a single shot rifle with removable barrel/chambers so I can have a range of different calibres all in the same rifle that can fit in a backpack... might suggest it to Kalashnikov...

    Those guys that dress up in period uniforms at airshows and things and reinact battles of the past might buy some... you can still get blanks, though even blanks can be dangerous and you need to be careful. Not many things you can own these days and say this was made during WWII and was probably used during that conflict... A lot of collectors will specialise, like some might only buy Finnish Mosins for example.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:45 pm

    "....In this day and age I am looking for a single shot rifle with removable barrel/chambers so I can have a range of different calibres all in the same rifle that can fit in a backpack... might suggest it to Kalashnikov..."

    I saw on TV , an American gunsmith , who replaced the barrel on Ak47 , into a longer barrel with good machining close tolerances and using quality rounds , was able to achieve marksman type performance ( 400 meters and above ) with this gun . A shorter magazine and redesign of rear grip into a rifle grip , will give a streamlined hunting Rifle that will compete well with other hunting Rifles at lower cost . A limited Run will prove market viability . Good suggestion go ahead......
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    Post  Mir Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:18 pm

    nomadski wrote:"....In this day and age I am looking for a single shot rifle with removable barrel/chambers so I can have a range of different calibres all in the same rifle that can fit in a backpack... might suggest it to Kalashnikov..."

    I saw on TV , an American gunsmith , who replaced the barrel on Ak47 , into a longer barrel with good machining close tolerances and using quality rounds , was able to achieve marksman type performance ( 400 meters and above ) with this gun . A shorter magazine and redesign of rear grip into a rifle grip , will give a streamlined hunting Rifle that will compete well with other hunting Rifles at lower cost . A limited Run will prove market viability . Good suggestion go ahead......

    I have a CBC small caliber single shot rifle that can interchange barrels from .22 hornet to a 410 shotgun.
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    Post  nomadski Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:04 pm

    I think for practical purposes in hunting , it becomes too time consuming and difficult to change barrels in situ , it is possible of course , but becomes expensive , too expensive for average hunter going out in season to hunt particular game , for which they have a licence . Also The optics becomes complicated , perhaps needing two or three scopes !  The American special forces made a sniper with three interchangeable barrels . The idea was that they could use ammo captured from enemy , and they did not need to carry as many .

    An ethical hunter , should not need scopes . Sure you can get a powerful Rifle and scope to kill at 1000 meters , while the Deer is dreaming of the morning mist . But there is no pride in that . Yet an Ak 47 or 74 , can be modified easily , as in this video , to compete in the market . But why just think about Rifles ? All ex-military stuff can be sold in civilian market . For example old trucks can be converted to electric drive and sold ......

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o1vKuZqEpgo

    This guy has similar ideas .
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:16 am

    These days Remington rifles are the main choice for deer hunters in the states and they are cheap to get, very good power, range and ACC, another one would be Ruger 10/22's.

    It depends on the type of ex military stuff, you cannot just sell anything from the military. There are rules and regulations about that.

    Hunters tend not to like platforms that they have to modify, they just want a simple gun that does the job and is a decent rifle that's all.
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    Post  nomadski Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:38 am

    The antique market is a very small market for collectors and enthusiast . I remember wearing or buying a heavy winter jacket , ex-Soviet , that I bought in the 80's . I think the Soviets or some other country , designed their Tractors , so that engines could be used for Tanks also . Well this is the reverse process . All ex-military stuff has uses in civilian market . Even if it is scrap value . Take the Tank . Can range finder be used for land survey and construction ? Or the Radio be used for Rural police ? The catering Van , can be sold to charity groups working in disaster relief work as mobile soup kitchens . And many vehicles converted to electric drive and sold to fire departments or delivery company in towns . The Americans are converting some Humvee into electric drives . Tank engines reconditioned have many uses . If I had a choice of buying a hunting Rifle for $ 1000 and a hunting AK for $ 500 , or $ 750 , then I would go for AK . I may even pay more for it , since a proven reliable toughened design , works in ice and mud .....cheap Ammo .The budding entrepreneurs in Russia , can probably buy these second hand , very cheap . Fit new barrel and modern stock and have very good profit margin .
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:27 am

    nomadski wrote:The antique market is a very small market for collectors and enthusiast . I remember wearing or buying a heavy winter jacket , ex-Soviet , that I bought in the 80's . I think the Soviets or some other country , designed their Tractors , so that engines could be used for Tanks also . Well this is the reverse process . All ex-military stuff has uses in civilian market . Even if it is scrap value . Take the Tank . Can range finder be used for land survey and construction ? Or the Radio be used for Rural police ? The catering Van , can be sold to charity groups working in disaster relief work as mobile soup kitchens . And many vehicles converted to electric drive and sold to fire departments or delivery company in towns . The Americans are converting some Humvee into electric drives . Tank engines reconditioned have many uses . If I had a choice of buying a hunting Rifle for $ 1000 and a hunting AK for $ 500 , or $ 750 , then I would go for AK . I may even pay more for it , since a proven reliable toughened design , works in ice and mud .....cheap Ammo .The budding entrepreneurs in Russia , can probably buy these second hand , very cheap . Fit new barrel and modern stock and have very good profit margin .

    1. Tanks have to be made before a specific year before they can be purchased in all cases it is highly illegal to drive them on roadways, then you have a few other dozen problems to tackle assuming the state you even live in permits ownership of these vehicles.

    2. It might have uses but that doesn't make it legal to sell or be owned.

    3. Why waste money on a tank ranger finder for this purpose? Assuming it can even be repurposed you can buy cheaper alternatives that work better for such a task.

    4. Police stations just do not buy random radios....

    5. You can buy some old hummers yes.

    6. An AK? bruh good luck finding a good AK for 750 bucks lol, you can find unreliable knock-offs sure but those things malfunction a lot. Just because the name says "AK" doesn't mean it's a reliable AK, depends on who made it. Even crappy Bulgarian AK's in the US go for like 1700. Meanwhile, I can buy a Ruger 10/22 for like 350 dollars and it's more accurate and just as reliable.

    7. Do you live in the US? if not you have no idea what you are talking about.

    8. The market is not small at all.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:31 pm

    To be clear when I said I wanted a single shot rifle I could change calibres, I didn't mean I would go into the bush with the rifle and three or four different calibres of ammo and three or four different types of ammo.

    When shooting on private property quite often I will have certain animals that I would be hunting... like wild goats, but if I came across rabbits or pests like possums or stoats or ferrets or weasels then obviously I would be interested in killing those too... just because it is better for the environment here if those types of animals were not around.

    Having a 410 barrel and a 7.62x39mm barrel is interesting, but also limiting here because department of conservation rules do not allow shotgun calibres to be used on their land.

    Shooting on back blocks over a period of a few days a few rabbits each day are a good source of meat to improve the food supply without having to carry a lot in.

    Equally if I am just going walking being able to pack a 7.62x39mm calibre single barrel rifle means if I come across pigs or small deer then I can get rid of a pest and have a bloody good few feeds.

    I handed in an FN FAL (L1A1) and a chinese AK and a chinese M4 carbine... I have a 303 that has been converted to 7.62x39mm chamber, but I currently don't have any rifles in 308 winchester or 223 remmington... being able to buy a barrel in each calibre instead of having to buy two different rifles is more appealing to me... and means I can shoot rabbits in Central Otago out to 300m or so with the 223 if need be... it is a centrefire so I can use it on DOC land.
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    Post  nomadski Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:20 pm

    I saw on TV a type of single shot Rifle . It was very very simple . Consisting of the barrel and the Round was mounted in the removable bolt to the rear . You had to fit the Round into the detachable bolt and then insert it into the rear end of barrel and lock it by bolt action . This then primed the standard trigger . You could possibly do this with help of machinist friend , if you had the design . Use existing barrels and make bolt action receivers in CNC machine . All barrels fit into same stock and trigger mechanism . I wish I knew name of gun , but It was what I think you are looking for . It exists ! You could then put three barrels and few rounds in back pack and kill anything from Rabbit to T-Rex .


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_HS_.50

    But with bolt coming out completely . Round hand loaded into bolt face and  not the ejection port . Fired cartridge remains in position and not ejected but extracted by bolt . Three bolts for three barrels and one stock and trigger mechanism .
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:00 am

    All ex-military stuff has uses in civilian market . Even if it is scrap value . Take the Tank . Can range finder be used for land survey and construction ?

    There will be a lot of old military gear that is likely to become available that would be useful in civilian markets... MTLB and even BRDM-2 and BTR type vehicles are generally amphibious and the tracked version have excellent cross country mobility as they are rarely as heavy as tanks which can occasionally sink in the mud.

    Tanks as such probably have limited value depending on your budget and intended use for them... they would be cheap to buy, but it would probably cost more than you paid for it to get it delivered to where you are... and depending on local rules most of the time they would need to be without weapons.

    Army vehicles includes bakeries and all sorts of kitchen type vehicles that are fully mobile so using them to provide mobile or temporary food sources is a sensible use for these vehicles without much conversion required.

    Amphibious vehicles could get you to a hunting area and then rather deeper inside that area than a conventional road vehicle could reducing the amount of actual walking required which means better able to bring back more meat for the family.

    The Americans are converting some Humvee into electric drives .

    Well that makes perfect sense in the US because both Humvees and electric vehicles are status symbols.... but Humvees are incredibly heavy and therefore really not suitable at all for efficient transport anywhere let alone conversion to electric drive. Get a willys jeep and turn it into an electric vehicle... it would be much more fun.

    If I had a choice of buying a hunting Rifle for $ 1000 and a hunting AK for $ 500 , or $ 750 , then I would go for AK . I may even pay more for it , since a proven reliable toughened design , works in ice and mud .....cheap Ammo .The budding entrepreneurs in Russia , can probably buy these second hand , very cheap . Fit new barrel and modern stock and have very good profit margin .

    Due to local laws at the time I had to remove the original wood work of my Chinese AK knockoff and put a plastic one piece stock on it (pistol grips on semi auto rifles are dangerous it seems) and I honestly preferred the original wooden feel over the plastic stock... unless it is custom made it often doesn't fit perfectly either.. which mine did not. I put an extra recoil pad just to make the stock longer but it still was not ideal.

    If you are using a decent AK then replacing the barrel is a waste of time and money... you can take the stock off and use a hunting like stock without making any permanent changes to the rifle so it does not change its value and over time if you keep all the original bits it will only become more valuable.

    30 shot mags are cheap and super reliable... never had any problems with mags because the feed lips are about 6mm thick and don't bend or twist... even when you use them to open a beer.

    Obviously they were banned here so I had a few cut down 5 and 7 shot mags which were utterly reliable too but surprisingly harder to use.

    With the 30 shot mags they are long so there was plenty of length to grab it in the palm of your hand and with the thumb operate the mag release and then rock the mag out of the rifle... with a 5 or 7 shot mag there is not enough magazine sticking down to grab so you need to use your entire hand to grab the mag and your thumb on your other hand cradling the rifle under your free arm to release the mag.

    Complete pain in the ass... but of course I followed the rules... as stupid as they are.

    As long as you use them out to 150m or 200m tops most decent AKs will be accurate enough... the main problem for most Americans is that they don't understand the rifle and they don't zero it properly... and they are probably not very good at using the iron sights properly either.

    6. An AK? bruh good luck finding a good AK for 750 bucks lol, you can find unreliable knock-offs sure but those things malfunction a lot. Just because the name says "AK" doesn't mean it's a reliable AK, depends on who made it. Even crappy Bulgarian AK's in the US go for like 1700. Meanwhile, I can buy a Ruger 10/22 for like 350 dollars and it's more accurate and just as reliable.

    Different places will have different prices... the fact that he lives in Iran suggests the prices will be rather different.

    Be aware that in the late 1980s and early 1990s the chinese had started making super cheap AKs and they were awful... to be clear the Chinese can make excellent fire arms to a very high quality but these rifles were made for export and were supposed to be as cheap as they could possibly make them, which means they will not shoot well with any ammo and you might even get stoppages...

    If you can get East German ones, or Russian ones or ones from Finland or South Africa (R4s) then they should be quality weapons.

    BTW when you say Ruger 10/22 I am guessing you mean a Ruger Ranch Rifle... bolt action, or a Mini 30 (7.62x39mm equivalent of the mini 14 in 223).

    You could then put three barrels and few rounds in back pack and kill anything from Rabbit to T-Rex .

    In very powerful calibres they often have single shot designs simply because you should be shooting at targets from enormous ranges.

    Heavy rifles for dangerous animals often have two barrels and you usually don't hunt alone so you get a few shots at the target before it rips you a new one.

    The sort of gun I am thinking of would be something similar to this:

    https://baikal.kalashnikovconcern.com/card/mp-18mh

    If you scroll down it shows the variations it comes in including 9mm pistol calibre in Makarov and Parabellum, as well as a range of other calibres.

    For instance the model number 10208 is in 223 Remington but comes with a spare barrel that could either be a 12 gauge with three inch magnum shell capacity or a 308 winchester calibre... which essentially means you can use HATO 5.56mm ammo or 7.62mm HATO calibre rounds with this rifle, though you would need to swap out the barrels.

    What I like is that they are break open weapons so you can walk with them broken open and obviously safe but if you see a target you can close the action and raise the rifle to your shoulder very quickly.

    The obvious problem for Russian rifle makers is their rules where you have to buy a shotgun or smoothbore weapon and then after five years of good behaviour you can get a rifle... well obviously buying a single barrel shotgun and being able to put any calibre rifled barrel on it would become a bit of a problem in legal terms.

    In some countries you are limited as to how many fire arms you can own so having a multicalibre rifle/shotgun would be rather useful.

    Obviously if you are shooting in thick bush then a single barrel rifle in 7.62 x 39mm for goat sized animals is ideal in terms of weight and cost, but shooting larger game and the calibre is simply not powerful enough... especially up in the mountains where you might be shooting at animals several hundred metres away.

    If you are wanting to shoot rabbits or pests at 300m then 223 is a good calibre, but at less than 80m then a .22lr will do the same job with much less weight and expense and fuss.

    If you could buy the base rifle for less than $500 and then buy different calibre barrels for say $100 to $150 each you could pick and choose what calibres you wanted.

    You could go further and have removable chambers so for instance the British 303 and the Russian 7.62 x 54mm Rimmed (their current sniper and machine gun calibre), as well as the Soviet 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev calibre pistol round and the Soviet 7.62 x 39mm SKS/AK calibre all have a 7.7mm calibre barrel ( about .311 inch), so with a small bag of screw in chambers you could use those four calibres in the same barrel.

    With it being a single barrel weapon with shotgun calibres you can get adapters that would allow a range of ammo to be used... you could have a 10 gauge barrel... which is a bad idea by the way... always check with your ammo suppliers to make sure you can get the ammo... it makes sense to stick to 12 gauge and 410 gauge as well as perhaps the 20 gauge as the most widespread and available calibres most of the time, but if you can get 10 gauge adapters for all the different calibres you will be fine... a 12 gauge firing in a 10 gauge barrel is just fine and will save you money too.

    A 12 gauge will be the most popular and easiest ammo to get hold of and you can get adapters for 12 gauge guns to allow smaller calibre ammo to be used, so 14 gauge, 16 gauge, 20 gauge, 32 gauge, and .410...

    (Note the gauge system is unusual in that the smaller the number the larger the calibre... except for the 410 which is the calibre of the barrel in inches (ie .410 of an inch. If you take 1 pound of lead and you divide it up into the number of the gauge then that is the diameter of the barrel... in other words if you take 12 lead balls the diameter of a 12 gauge gun barrel and melted them you would end up with 1 pound of lead... therefore the larger the number the smaller the fraction of lead being used. A 1 gauge weapon would fire a neat sphere of lead 1 pound in weight... which would be quite big and powerful.).
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:01 am

    Probably the closest thing to what I want is Rossi Wizard or Thompsen Contender... but obviously I want a Russian weapon.
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    Post  nomadski Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:20 pm

    This one I think.......is Russian .

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdbIE8w2JbU&feature=emb_imp_woyt

    Looks like in comment section on next video , adapters allow greater flexibility .


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ysgt1MepgA&feature=emb_imp_woyt

    And :

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gear-review-short-lane-gunadapters-stack-n-pack-kit-for-12-gauge-shotguns/

    And :

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2cqAvTKmA

    Etc....
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:23 am

    The chamber inserts for the shotgun rounds are actually very effective, but most of the other inserts tend to be pistol calibres and are often not really long enough to get good energy from the cartridges the fire.

    With an over and under weapon like that Russian gun you can have a 7.62x39mm insert in the 12 gauge barrel so you get two shots at a target, but honestly I would prefer to have a gun almost exactly the same but with a couple of changes.

    First that it would fold in half... don't want to fire it folded in half... but it would fit in a backpack better folded in half and I don't want it to ever go off in my backpack so some sort of safety that prevents it from firing while folded would be ideal.

    Second having two barrels is nice for a quick follow up shot if needed, and ejectors to throw out the shell cases after you fire is handy too.

    Having some sort of frame the barrels and chambers are mounted on that allows the barrels to be removed and swapped around would be good and being able to pick and choose calibres, so I can have only centre fire cartridges for shooting on department of conservation land, while when duck shooting or shooting on private property I can have shotgun and or rimfire calibres too.

    New types of electronic rifle scopes allow different barrel lengths and calibres so you would probably need one of those to keep all those barrels zeroed, but then at the short ranges I would be using it a red dot sight bore sighted would be fine for any smoothbore barrel and rimfire, perhaps an iron sight system built in to the frame that can be made modular for the different barrel options.

    The local gunshop had that Russian rifle in 223, with both barrels being 223, and they also had a few with 22 magnum and a 410 gauge shotgun which is interesting because I don't currently have any rifles or shotguns in either calibre, but they also have another gun in .22lr and 410 which would be cheaper to feed, but I already have several 22s.

    Note with 22 rimfire you can shoot 22 short, 22 long, and 22 long rifle from the same guns, though semi autos might not feed rounds it was not specifically designed for it will fire them safely. The 22 Magnum rimfire or 22 winchester magnum rimfire is not the same calibre chamber so you shouldn't fire 22 short or 22 long or 22 long rifle in them and the 22WMR wont load into those smaller calibre guns either because the chambers are not compatible.

    Equally with 223 you can fire military 5.56mm HATO ammo, but you should not use 223 remmington in a firearm chambered for the military round because the hunting rounds can be loaded to hotter pressures that might not be safe in a military weapon.

    Same for 308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm HATO.
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    Post  nomadski Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:44 am

    I think your needs are that the Rifle be Russian , capable of firing different rounds for different animals and be compact enough for a back pack . So if it was me , I have to find out what animals are available in New Zealand that I hunt regularly , and how close I can get to them and what size round I need . This will give me the length of barrel ( minimum ) that I need for particular round . Then I could probably shorten barrel length , without loosing too much on power . I would then fit new butt stock that is telescopic or folding . So total length comes down to minimum barrel length . I would not bother with adapters , as you said length too short for smaller calibre . Save my money and buy three barrels . Use more powerful rounds magnum .

    So then is your budget . The single barrel Baikal , means you can carry three or four barrels . Shortened . Without using adapters . But you must order telescopic or foldable stock . The manufacturer could do this or local Gunsmith . The double barrel Baikal can be shortened too and new stock fitted , by Gunsmith . Electronic scopes as you said means all rounds can be fired and lightweight . You pays your money and takes your choice . Everything else being equal , I go for the single barrel Baikal with four barrels shortened . Use skill and camouflage to get closer to animals . Alternatively use traps if you can , for birds and Rabbits . Carry a Cane / fishing Rod for fly fishing streams and keeping balance on mountain Roads .Also discreet . More protein .

    Hollow walking stick can carry single barrel of Rifle , and act as walking aid and act as shooting upright gun rest , with right shape handle attachments . Overall best most discreet useful solution . Use Baikal single shot long barrel . No mods needed . Receiver and butt stocks fit into back pack .



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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:15 am

    The walking stick idea is clever but I would doubt it would be legal here, plus it would be difficult to aim.

    There is a Russian rifle that is a long barrelled stocked revolver and the revolver cylinder is removable so you can have a cylinder for .22lr that will also fire 22 long and 22 short rounds, but you can swap out the cylinder for a 22 magnum cylinder... the bullets are the same diameter so you can use the same barrel but the chambers are different so the different cylinders would sort that out. A folding stock and about a 50cm barrel would be ideal... the 22lr is cheap and plentiful and great for rabbits and possums... a box of 50 rounds fits in the palm of your hand and is very light and it will kill cleanly out to 70-80m or so but most of the time I would try to get the range under 40m. The 22 magnum is effective to about 120-140m for those gun shy rabbits in flat open areas in Central Otago and it would just be a question of carrying the extra cylinder and a few extra rounds for the more powerful round.

    For my other weapon, I agree a single barrel will be the lightest and simplest... most of the animals I would be hunting could be taken with 7.62x54mm calibre rounds, but even that would be a powerful round for goats and pigs and small deer in the bush where the distance to the targets is less than 80m.

    I would probably go with a 7,62x54mm barrel and a 7.62x39mm barrel and a 12 gauge shotgun barrel where they are allowed.

    With regard to adapters, for the most part they are most useful if you carry a pistol as a sidearm because you could use your pistol ammo too.

    In my case the only adapters that would make sense for me would be for different shotgun calibres.

    A 12 gauge is noisy and has a kick and puts a lot of pellets downrange when you fire it.... having an adapter for a 410 would not make it cheaper, but much more comfortable to fire and for many targets they wont even notice the difference.

    Though there are what are called mini shells that are 12 gauge shotgun shells that are about half the length of normal 12 gauge shells with reduced propellent and reduced payloads that can be used against light targets that are a bit closer without obliterating them... less recoil and you could probably carry a few more as shot gun ammo is bulky.

    410 shells are not cheaper, but slim and lower recoil and still get the job done with practise.

    In that description for those single shot/barrel Russian guns it mentioned a version that came with a 223 barrel and either a 308 winchester barrel or a 12 gauge barrel.... my ideal gun therefore would be a version that came in 7.62x39mm calibre with a 7.62x54mm and a 12 gauge barrel too... and then I could have that rifle and the revolver rimfire.

    The revolver rifle btw is a 9 round cylinder in both versions... so both models can have 9 rounds loaded ready to fire.

    I was talking to a friend of mine that lives up central Otago... he said this American guy came to see him one day... he had come over to New Zealand for some trout fishing and was told to go to Rotorua in the north island, but he was coming all this way so he insisted on coming down to the south island too... he spent a week in Rotorua shoulder to shoulder with other trout fishermen and didn't get much, and came down to the south island and found pub near a big river and asked if anyone was a trout fisherman... the pub owner sent him to visit my friend and he agreed to take him out fishing. The American guy (sorry I don't remember his name) asked if there would be anyone else on the river... my friend said if you could see anyone else on the river they were too &*^% close...

    They had the whole river to themselves and his only regret was spending a week in the north island...

    Anyway... they had plenty of time to tell tall tails and they got to talking and one of the stories he mentioned was when he was a kid he was playing down by the river with his rimfire revolver (pistol not rifle) and an older boy came up to him and bet him he couldn't hit a log in the river 6 times in a row. He knew what he was planning so he fired six shots into the log. The older boy suddenly got less friendly and said if he didn't hand over the revolver that he would beat him up, so he fired a bullet passed his ear... he said he never saw anyone run so fast in his life... .22 rimfire rounds are slim and this particular revolver was modelled to look a bit like a large calibre revolver so the cylinder was rather large and it had 12 or 15 shots ready to fire... a piece of information that older boy learned the hard way... Twisted Evil It could just as easily cost him his life.

    Even if it was a Nagant revolver... used by the Russians and then the Soviets and still in use today... it is a seven shot weapon because the 30 cal bullets are slim.

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