Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+38
Rodion_Romanovic
thegopnik
Krepost
Lennox
GarryB
JohninMK
Mir
magnumcromagnon
TMA1
limb
Backman
AZ-5
Rasisuki Nebia
Podlodka77
mnztr
Coffin Corner
headshot69
wilhelm
hoom
Arkanghelsk
Kiko
dino00
LMFS
PapaDragon
franco
d_taddei2
Hole
Arrow
AMCXXL
Gomig-21
lyle6
owais.usmani
Russian_Patriot_
Maximmmm
George1
Dorfmeister
ALAMO
miketheterrible
42 posters

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    mnrck
    mnrck


    Posts : 70
    Points : 74
    Join date : 2016-02-10

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  mnrck Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:21 am

    owais.usmani wrote:

    Very Happy
    Beautiful!

    GarryB, zepia, JohninMK, owais.usmani, lyle6, 11E and Belisarius like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 1265
    Points : 1265
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  lyle6 Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:11 pm

    God bless every curve, love all the angles Embarassed

    owais.usmani and Belisarius like this post

    Gomig-21
    Gomig-21


    Posts : 487
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2016-07-17
    Location : Boston USA

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:43 am

    Always been impressed with not only the smooth curves on this thing, but the girth of the wings are really something. I suppose they need as much internal fuel storage as they possibly could get for those long, high altitude bombing missions. Bet those wings pack a lot of gallons (or liters I guess) in them.

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 FaAsGAYWYAAlVlk?format=jpg&name=large

    GarryB, George1, Big_Gazza, thegopnik, Mir and Broski like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 7068
    Points : 7056
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Hole Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:11 pm

    Tons of fuel.  Wink

    Gomig-21 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33954
    Points : 34472
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:09 am

    148 tons of fuel AFAIK...

    But obviously not all in the wings...

    Gomig-21 and owais.usmani like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4768
    Points : 4768
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  LMFS Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:58 am

    GarryB wrote:148 tons of fuel AFAIK...

    But obviously not all in the wings...

    The blended wing-body is crucial for fuel capacity:
    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Tu-16010

    GarryB, George1, Gomig-21, lancelot, TMA1 and Mir like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2143
    Points : 2147
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Mir Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:25 pm

    Another major plus of the blended wing design was the aerodynamic lift it created, which were "discovered" with the design work on the Su-27.

    GarryB, Gomig-21 and TMA1 like this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 4768
    Points : 4768
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  LMFS Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:38 pm

    Exactly, it allows to increase the internal volume compensating some of the extra drag with additional lift. Interesting in the Tu-160 is how massive that transition section between fuselage and wing is and that they managed to make it work from an aerodynamic perspective on such a huge plane flying 2 M. The Tu-160 is indeed a master piece of engineering.

    GarryB, Gomig-21, owais.usmani, lancelot, TMA1 and Broski like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2143
    Points : 2147
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Mir Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:58 pm

    LMFS wrote:The Tu-160 is indeed a master piece of engineering.

    I'll drink to that! Very Happy

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 01-07f10

    GarryB, George1, Big_Gazza, Gomig-21, LMFS, lancelot, TMA1 and Broski like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33954
    Points : 34472
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:05 am

    Another major plus of the blended wing design was the aerodynamic lift it created, which were "discovered" with the design work on the Su-27.

    The body lift effect using engine pods was originally from the MiG-29 design... the first Su-27s didn't look the way they do now and was modified to look rather more like the MiG-29 after the first prototypes were tested and shown to not be as good as expected.

    The MiG-29 shaped Su-27 is the success it is today because of body lift and that stinger tail also improves aerodynamics as does its swan nose which the MiG does not have...

    The Tu-160 would make an interesting flying wing if you pushed its nose back into its body and cut the tail off...
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1309
    Points : 1311
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  lancelot Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:52 pm

    The Tu-160 was only possible after several Soviet programs like the one for the SST i.e. SuperSonic Transport the Tu-144.
    Initially it used the same engines in the prototype but later they came up with the NK-32 engine. This was an engine of a power and capacity the West couldn't match back then. It used a modern afterburning turbofan cycle and is proof of the superiority of Soviet metallurgy in jet engines back then. The B-1 bomber, the closest analog, was downgraded to a subsonic aircraft with engines of half the power level of the Tu-160. That US engine, with half the power, was the engine core used to design the CFM56 series of engines as used in the civilian Airbus A320.

    If you wanted to, you could make an F-35 analog with an engine derived from the NK-32. The F-35 engine and B-21 Raider engines have similar power (125 kN dry vs 137 kN dry) but are of way later design.

    The Tu-160 was originally designed by Makeyev OKB but then handed out to Tupolev since they had more experience with actually building aircraft of the type.
    The Tupolev design for the competition was way simpler. It lacked variable geometry wings for example.

    This was designed at the peak of the so called "Breznev Stagnation". It is evidence that the Soviet Union wasn't as outdated technologically as some people would like you to think. To a large degree the problem is that technology often was not distributed across design bureaus and even less to the civilian sector.
    The overhang of the defense sector over the civilian economy kept increasing and hence we get the stagnation period.

    There was also severe duplication of designs in the Union sometimes, for example, in terms of performance this engine can easily replace the Lotarev D-18T as used in the Ruslan. The Union often did this to promote competition within their own industry but the Soviets simply lacked the economic heft to continue doing multiple concurrent expensive programs like that.

    LMFS, Mir and Broski like this post

    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2143
    Points : 2147
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Mir Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The body lift effect using engine pods was originally from the MiG-29 design... the first Su-27s didn't look the way they do now and was modified to look rather more like the MiG-29 after the first prototypes were tested and shown to not be as good as expected.

    The MiG-29 shaped Su-27 is the success it is today because of body lift and that stinger tail also improves aerodynamics as does its swan nose which the MiG does not have...

    I don't know about your sources but unfortunately the info above is not correct at all. The opposite is actually true!

    The first drawing of the Su-27 came about in 1970 and was mostly made by Vladimir Antonov - the main Sukhoi designer at the time.
    Three OKB's took part in the competition to design a 4th gen fighter. Yakolev presented a Yak-45, Mikoyan the Mig-29 and Sukhoi the Su-27.
    Below you can see the preliminary drawings and how they were presented initially. Here you can clearly see the Su-27's layout was far more advanced than the other two competitors. You can also see that the Mig design had the intakes on the side and looked somewhat similar to the Anglo/French Jaguar! Yak actually withdrew its design at the first meeting and Mig went back for a redesign and came back with a new model at the next meeting which closely resembled the Sukhoi layout.

    All screenshots are from the Wings of Russia series >>

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Yak45-10

    This is Mig's second attempt after they saw the Sukhoi design in model form >>

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Mig29-12

    Sukhoi's Vladimir Antonov's first drawing of the Su-27 made in 1970 (sorry bad quality) >>>

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Su-27-10

    George1, Big_Gazza, ALAMO, zepia, LMFS, lancelot and Broski like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33954
    Points : 34472
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:03 pm

    I don't know about your sources but unfortunately the info above is not correct at all. The opposite is actually true!

    The drawings are cute but both aircraft first flew in 1977 and the Su-27 was radically different from the current model and went through some serious changes in shape to go from the T-10 to the T-10S...

    If you look at the actual prototypes it was the Sukhoi plane that was not right and needed a redesign to get it fit for purpose...
    Mir
    Mir


    Posts : 2143
    Points : 2147
    Join date : 2021-06-10

    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Mir Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The drawings are cute but both aircraft first flew in 1977 and the Su-27 was radically different from the current model and went through some serious changes in shape to go from the T-10 to the T-10S...

    Now I know you've had some serious trouble in the past identifying Soviet aircraft but does this preliminary drawing of the Mig-29 look anything like the Mig-29 we know today?
    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Mig29-13

    Compared to say this! Laughing
    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Mig-2913

    But I guess they probably look the same to you Laughing

    GarryB wrote:If you look at the actual prototypes it was the Sukhoi plane that was not right and needed a redesign to get it fit for purpose...

    Not really. There were two major issues with the T-10 prototype. The first problem was that the electronics was too heavy for the aircraft. They had to come up with lighter and better designed electronics to improve the aircraft's weight issue. This was actually predicted by Sukhoi himself - he knew it beforehand. Well the Soviets did manage to rectify that issue fairly quickly in the end judging by the Su-27's aerial displays in the West!

    The second issue was that the prototype experienced heavy vibration at angles of attack greater than 10 degrees - but other than that the first flight went great. The famous test pilot Vladimir Ilyushin, who made the first test flight, described the aircraft as the first aircraft he knew that was smarter than him. The issue with the vibration dictated the redesign (mainly the wing) - and NOT the Mig-29!  Laughing

    Now what they've learned from the Su-27's wind tunnel models, before any prototypes were produced (when the Mig-29's own wind tunnel models still looked like the drawing above! Smile ) - was the lift effect of the blended wing design. The same blended wing concept that was implemented on the tu-160.
    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Tu160-12

    That concept was also implemented on the Mig-29 but only after they saw the Su-27 design. It has absolutely nothing to do with engine pods but hey GarryB.net knows better than the Soviet designers themselves! Wink

    GarryB wrote:The body lift effect using engine pods was originally from the MiG-29 design
     Twisted Evil

    George1 and Broski like this post


    Sponsored content


    Tu-160 "White Swan" #2 - Page 6 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan" #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:13 am