Its Pottery.
![Razz](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_razz.gif)
Why do you consider they are selling for a quarter the price?
They are selling it at market prices, adjusted by lots of factors, political included.
Cooperation in the energy sector alone is big leverage for Russia's foreign policy, and of course that there is some truth behind the statement about "weaponizing pipelines".
Hell, the Aurus project would not be possible without cooperation with BMW.
The whole turbine business is being developed along with Siemens.
All the success of Lada, or Gaz Group lately, is a matter of cooperation with Renault.
It is European lobbyists responsible to calm things down, as they have billions in pipelined projects.
Why screw it?
pfftt... What is Berlin going to do? Cry? Have a tanty? Stop buying gas and just accept the reality of needing to load shed entire cities when the electrical grid loses steam in Winter?
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GarryB wrote:
Because for Germany the alternative is shipped American gas which is four times more expensive... which is why they only show token interest in it most of the time.
GarryB wrote:
By putting it onto ships they can expand the countries they can sell it to countries less hostile to Russia that could benefit from cheaper gas sources. They developed a ship that could take on normal gas and liquefy it as it takes it on board so it can carry much larger volumes of gas than if it just compressed it, but it can deliver its gas to ports where they receive normal gas rather than liquified gas so they don't need complex and expensive infrastructure at their ports to accept liquified gas like Germany is having to do to please the US.
Win Win. They made a ship to deliver gas to Kaliningrad without needing expensive new infrastructure to be built.
GarryB wrote:
There is stability in a pipeline where margins can be reduced and it still makes sense, but western governments are actively seeking to damage Russia so cooperation just adds strings they can cut and adds to the damage they can do.
Russia should look to Asia instead of Europe.
GarryB wrote:
It was all explained rather well by Alexander Mercouris, when he said this agreement with Germany and the US is basically corruption... Russia is to subsidise the Ukranian economy and that money is to be spent on renewable energy technology... essentially Germany pressures Russia to keep transit gas through the Ukraine and the Ukraine will spend that money on renewable energy technology... which they will obviously buy from Germany because they don't have any...
The real amusing thing is the German officials talking about negotiating with Russia from a position of power... Russia is now more powerful than it has been in the last 30 years and during that time the only pressure Russia responded to was under Yeltsen, but under Putin even when Russia was relatively weak such use of power from the west did not get the results they wanted, and is even less likely to be effective now.
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The real issue is, that LNG you can buy on spot transaction, so in some cases, it can be less expensive than the long-term contracted one, delivered via the pipe.
What makes a difference is the cost of regasification.
But it is not 1/4.
As maybe you have not noticed that this is exactly what they are doing, loading a streamline of LNG tankers and sending those worldwide.
US including Laughing
And there is already a full LNG terminal at Kaliningrad for several years.
"Asia" is a word with extreme buoyancy. First, you need tons of investments applied there, when all that infrastructure already exists here in Europe. And this is what they are doing now, still, your suggestion is that they should cease the cooperation with the existing customers?
What do you think, how long will Europe kneel towards the US, which is getting weaker each day?
And Poland is next in line to lost transit fees, too. Yamal can be a closed-end at Belarus at any moment when NS2 will start to operate.
All the barking towards South Stream ended up in adjusting the pipeline route, ending up in Turkey, left the previously considered as a beneficiary Bulgaria, and forced all the countries there to speed up own pipes construction, to connect to the TurkStream on time.
Poland 'expects' to participate in Nord Stream 2 certification after failing to stop Russian pipeline project
GarryB wrote:
The ship they use to deliver gas to Kaliningrad does that itself.
GarryB wrote:
No, it is a million times more expensive, because it will create a dependency on an unreliable and dishonest supplier called the United States of America who would rather see Europe freeze and stop production than use Russian gas for energy.
GarryB wrote:
Not enough to be able to walk away from NSII...
GarryB wrote:
Ditch hostile enemy countries who openly admit to doing everything in their power to harm Russia, and supply honest customers wanting to trade on equal terms with affordable energy to help them grow their economies.
GarryB wrote:
How can Europe ever be independent again... it is a whipped pack of dogs that thinks they are in charge and that the collar end of the leash is where they are.
Who cares about Europe, they just want to follow... in a decade or two they will be taking orders from Israel... they would want to take orders from China but I don't think China would want to take on the task of house training them... so much work to do for so little potential reward...
GarryB wrote:
Can't see Belarus being happy about that with their loss of transit fees.
GarryB wrote:
That new ship they built in 2019 that takes on and liquefies the gas and can then gasify the liquid when it gets to the place it is delivering is going to mean Kaliningrad is good for gas no matter who turns off the pipes leading to them... otherwise it is not a Russian problem really...
GarryB wrote:
Honestly, I would just say there is not enough gas, lets just close down these pipelines to Europe and Germany can either buy french nuclear power, or set up exercise bicycles and get their unemployed and illegal migrants pedalling...
GarryB wrote:
In the case of NSII it is countries that have nothing to do with the new line that are bleating because their tantrums and misdeeds in the past that disrupted gas delivery and indeed outright theft, means they have been bypassed but they should count themselves lucky that Russia continues to pump gas through their pipes... they really don't deserve it at all.
Instead of a sincere apology making all this fuss necessary and promises to be more responsible in the future we have them demanding payments whether gas goes through their pipes or not...
This is what I mean... they couldn't stop it, so they want to join and **** it up from the inside.Poland 'expects' to participate in Nord Stream 2 certification after failing to stop Russian pipeline project
An obvious no.
higurashihougi wrote:![]()
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https://www.rt.com/business/530904-nord-stream-poland-certification/
Poland 'expects' to participate in Nord Stream 2 certification after failing to stop Russian pipeline project
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Where are all the Murican ideas undermining the Russian energy projects? Where is Nabucco?
So what you are saying, is to dump it, right?
Well, your perspective is kinda bizarre, I must tell you sitting just in the middle of Europe.
And Russia is one of the main customers, making this whole process an elegant way to subsidize them.
It is nothing unusual, this type of tanker is not something extraordinary.
Your advice can be shortened to the opinion, that they should stop using the infrastructure they already have, some of it back from the Soviet times, costing some $200 bln in total, stop making money on it, leave the extraction on the biggest reservoir they have on Yamal that is already running, and stop the cooperation with the customers they do business with for 40 years. And invest some $100 bln to the developing markets on the other side of the continent.
Did I miss something from this brilliant advice?
That is their problem, not Russias one.
There is hardly any international law granting this, same as the fine put on Gazprom by Poland's antimonopoly agency means nothing.
NS2 is a fact, and all the puppets must deal with that. Master is not holding the lines anymore.
My opinion is, that even if Ukraine will get a bone with no marble, it will be taken back by the Germans with the dog attached to it Laughing
And that will happened very soon, you can take it for granted.
Garry, it looks like Gazprom heard you. A long article but the Russians are starting to flex their muscles and put the screws on Europe.
The EU is about to learn a lesson re biting the hand that heats you.
Conveniently the article leaves out the critical detail that EU-tardia's regulations prevent Gazprom from contracting more than 50% of its export pipeline capacity.
So Gazprom is under no obligation to ship any extra just because EU-tardia now wants it. Eat shit EU-tardia.
What do you think Europe will do with that dilemma?
GarryB wrote:
Yeah, that guy failed to murder you so just keep doing normal business with him and his bitches and give them more time to get it right...
GarryB wrote:
Redirect it to better behaved customers with manners and tact.
GarryB wrote:
Europe is not friend of Russia and all its rhetoric and public statements talk about sanctions and talking to Russia from a position of power to bring them into line... the line it seems is subservient resource bitch to the west that does as it is told and has no opinions of its own... without ever mentioning what is in it for Russia... no sanctions? They are used to them now... they replaced what they missed.
GarryB wrote:
But it is more use than pipes to Germany that by EU regulation they can only use half of...
GarryB wrote:
Well, no... in European terms I am suggesting a pivot away from angry and ungrateful Europe and a shift towards the largely untapped markets of Africa and central and south America and Asia. Building ships to carry the product means you can supply any region you choose and you can adapt who gets the energy... you talk about billions spent in infrastructure... half of that going to the EU cannot be used by EU law... how inefficient and stupid of them, but if they are not interested then delivering the goods to other countries makes sense and also delivering less to a commercial enemy is a good thing too.
GarryB wrote:
The problem is that Russia is not dealing with rational people... there will be plenty in Brussels who think that is a brilliant idea and lets put Orcs on the committee too to really keep those Russians in line... as you point out it is a pattern supported by the EU right to the top and throughout all its legal structures that Russia needs to support the Ukraine and Poland and anyone else with their hands out.
Sometimes, I can not get rid of a feeling, that you are discussing the things just "to discuss", no matter how pointless it is
This redirecting requires billions of investments, years to build the capacity, years to develop the market, and will end up just the same - dependence on the east direction in opposite to the west one. This is why that is the last thing they will do.
It does not matter.
Europe is here. Russia is there. That won't change.
They deal for 40 years.
Deal with it
It was just clear for a long time, still did not kill the project.
Do you know better the profit margin than they do?
Bud, you are using words that no one uses in business.
The rationality of a political class is an issue indeed, but this is not a constant thing, but a variable.
What is constant, is a half+ billion rich market just around the corner, connected with infrastructure, and with almost half a century of mutual cooperation, that you recommend to dump down the toilet, because of some childish "grateful" bullshit.
By the way, here you have a last weekend cause explained, easily.
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GarryB wrote:
That money has already been spent.... do you think the Zvezda ship yard built with South Korean expertise to handle ships up to 350K tons dry weight was for fun?
Being able to ship product world wide will release them from their basic problem of dealing with the world through Europe which intentionally makes things harder and slower and more expensive.
GarryB wrote:
Here in New Zealand to buy Russian made ammo we go through traders in Germany and with trade sanctions we are not getting much at all. We haven't got trade sanctions against Russia... lets cut out the european middle man and buy their stuff.
GarryB wrote:
The rest of the world is out there for Russia to develop trade links with, europe is pushing Russia to look at those other options.... not developed to start with, but much greater potential for both parties to grow and develop and prosper.
GarryB wrote:
Unreliable, high risk, longer term they will be working hard on alternative products to remove you from their portfolio... active competitor and rival keen to sabotage your business with third parties.
GarryB wrote:
Sound right but it isn't. Western governments on the left or the right have been just as bad and actually compete with each other over who is tougher on Russia... which means there is little future for good relations and business ties for the near future until they stop being.
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franco wrote:Pipes are running out in Germany on the basis of Nord Stream 2
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Not sure what are you even talk about scratch
Building the fleet capable of transporting 200 bln m3 a year from scratch?
And you are saying, cose the pipes to EU, right?
Not sure if you have noticed, that you answered your suggestions.
You buy Russian stuff via a German supplier.
Does it sound funny to you, or not?
And what does it tell you about the "sanctions" and actual relations here in Europe?
But how it connects to your suggestion to quit 180bln m3 a year export to Europe?
All major European energy companies are connected with Russian partners, owning mutual concessions, common business, and common goals.
It was just a part of the US hegemony game, that they have already lost.
And that is the point. At the beginning of the 00s, we have witnessed increasing cooperation between Russia and the EU, which had to be destroyed from the US perspective.
This is when all the political and military activities around Russia arise, increasing pressure on the European political class. Georgian intrusion into South Ossetia was just one of the bricks used to build the wall between Russia and Europe. Poland and Romania were used to this, too.
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GarryB wrote:
Have you not been reading this thread... just one article a while back mentioned the largest independent gas supplier was increasing its gas tanker fleet from 16 ships to about 50 ships in the next few years... do you think other companies are cutting down their ship numbers?
GarryB wrote:
No, don't close the pipes to the EU though I suspect the first chance they get the US will create a situation where they are closed again and not from the Russian end again.
The simple fact is that the EU is a politically psychotic customer that might stop buying Russian energy if they think they can get away with another alternative and are desperately struggling to find an alternative energy source.
It is not something Russia should invest in to expand or expect to be there in the future.
They support and enable Ukrainian theft and dishonesty.
GarryB wrote:
New Zealand is a tiny economy at the bottom of the world... we get screwed like this all the time. Get on an apple and try to buy a song. Change your location to New Zealand and you will find an extra dollar added to the cost of any song you want to buy to download... it has nothing to shipping or packing and everything to do with distribution contracts and the way business is conducted in the world... the little countries pay more... assuming they can even get access in the first place.
GarryB wrote:
Why are you so pissy about Europe getting cut off... they want Russia to be the bad guy don't they.
GarryB wrote:
Ever since Russia has been working hard jumping through the anti Russian minefield of EU law.... much of which is written expressly to thwart them personally, do get more gas capacity to Germany and all they get is shit for it.
GarryB wrote:
I am not saying block the pipes, I am saying don't fight tooth and nail to fix problems that are Germany and the EUs and NOT RUSSIAN.
If there is not enough gas supply because the Ukraine has started stealing and the US has turned off NSII taps in protest then Russia can deliver gas via boats.... it is not that far... there will be delays... sue Kiev and Washington.
GarryB wrote:
The EU and US have declared Russia and China the enemy... those links can be gradually broken, whether from the wests side or from the Russian side, and Russia can look for cooperation and business partners from other countries instead.
GarryB wrote:
Did they?
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