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    WW II discussion

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    Post  BTRfan Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 am

    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.


    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 09, 2013 7:08 am

    Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.
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    Post  flamming_python Thu May 09, 2013 2:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

    I didn't say they were; I'm saying that they were the only ones blamed for everything which is an analogous situation to Germany post-WW1 IMO; we all know how that all ended up later.

    BTRfan wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.

    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.

    I think the Yugoslav wars could have been avoided too if everyone down there was just a little less.. insane
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    Post  BTRfan Thu May 09, 2013 6:18 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Well...the Serbs were not exactly candy themselves post Yugoslavia.

    I didn't say they were; I'm saying that they were the only ones blamed for everything which is an analogous situation to Germany post-WW1 IMO; we all know how that all ended up later.

    BTRfan wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:As to what concerns Germany

    Well no-one's excusing them - it's perfectly clear that they were stirring the pot just as much as everybody else.

    But what's also clear is that they were the only ones blamed for it, and in fact for everything; with all the war-guilt and reparations that drained their economy and everything else. They were given very humiliating and harsh peace terms in 1918 (albeit the terms that Germany themselves gave to the Bolsheviks in 1918 were scarcely any more fair); and it's perfectly reasonable to sympathise with them on these grounds because in fact they were solely blamed and punished for something that in fact was everyone's doing.

    As a modern analogy you can take for example Serbia and the Yugoslav wars, NATO bombings in 1999. Exactly the same sort of thing.

    World War One was unfortunate and could have been avoided if the various powers had been more understanding, more trusting, and more willing to rely on negotiations

    We cannot compare this at all to Serbia and the Yugoslav wars.

    The NATO bombing of Serbia was just an unprovoked act of naked aggression and one more step in the long Western game of isolating and dismantling Serbia.

    I think the Yugoslav wars could have been avoided too if everyone down there was just a little less.. insane




    I never could understand why the Serbs and Croats have been at each other's throats for centuries. Aside from minor religious and very minor ethnic differences, they are largely the same. They speak the same language [I'm sorry if it offends anybody but I cannot speak of a Serbian language or a Croatian language, it is Serbo-Croatian, just as English in the northern USA is English and English in the southern USA is English, the same language with small regional differences], and they are all Christians [granted Catholic vs Orthodox], and they have all suffered under foreign occupations throughout their history.


    From what I've seen, the Serbs have been ready to put the past behind them and move on, but the Croats like to throw jabs at the Serbs, such as recognizing Kosovo.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri May 10, 2013 4:29 pm

    BTRfan wrote:I never could understand why the Serbs and Croats have been at each other's throats for centuries. Aside from minor religious and very minor ethnic differences, they are largely the same. They speak the same language [I'm sorry if it offends anybody but I cannot speak of a Serbian language or a Croatian language, it is Serbo-Croatian, just as English in the northern USA is English and English in the southern USA is English, the same language with small regional differences], and they are all Christians [granted Catholic vs Orthodox], and they have all suffered under foreign occupations throughout their history.

    From what I've seen, the Serbs have been ready to put the past behind them and move on, but the Croats like to throw jabs at the Serbs, such as recognizing Kosovo.

    They fight and fought in the past because the region has always been conquered, exploited or influenced by multiple outside powers who employed peoples there to square off against one another; Croatia was always under the patronage of Catholic & Central Europe, Serbia the Russians, Bosniaks the Turks and now the Albanians by the Americans.

    Nowadays, the old wounds freshly reopened because of economic collapse that accelerated nationalism in the late 80s/early 90s, and America and Europe who had an interest in cracking apart Yugoslavia. The place folded like a pack of cards.

    Now the Croats and Albanians are being used as pawns by the West but they all fail to see the big picture.
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    Post  limb Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:27 pm

    https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-built-a-russian-fighter-jet-killer-and-stealth-is-irrelevant-2019-2

    Lets all laugh it this retarded gem of an article claiming that on virtue of "exceptional" ECM alone, the gripen will easily be able to destroy any russian fighter, no matter if paired with IADS or not. The justification? Not only just baseless marketing and anecdotes, but the claim that somehow Russian ECM is only optimized against US electronic warfare and somehow Swedish electronic warfare systems will have a field day in making Russian radars useless.

    Ironically this article takes a shit on US stealth, a big no-no in western military publications by claiming that proper ECM can make a fighter just as undetectable with proper ECM instead of overexpensive and conditionally detectable stealth.

    Do we actually know if the khibiny and L-Band aesa are inferior in jamming radar and datalinks than whatever gripen or eurocanards use?
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    Post  Isos Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:41 pm

    There is a story, never seen any proof, that says grippeb pilots were pissed off that eurfighter Typhoon won easily in war games against them sovthey switch switched their jammer in war mode and made the typhoon's radar totally useless.

    Europeans have the best scientists in the world and they have lot of money too.

    I wouldn't underestimate their EW systems.

    However some stupid claim. Even if they are very good that doesn't mean russian EW system are useless or bad. That doesn't also mean they can jamm russian IADS whichbuses tens of different frequency bands at the same time.

    Also in a war, fighters aren't the only thing you can use to destroy enemy fighters. Russia has kalibr and iskander against which Sweeds have nothing to counter them.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:42 pm

    limb wrote:https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-built-a-russian-fighter-jet-killer-and-stealth-is-irrelevant-2019-2

    Lets all laugh it this retarded gem of an article claiming that on virtue of "exceptional" ECM alone, the gripen will easily be able to destroy any russian fighter, no matter if paired with IADS or not. The justification? Not only just baseless marketing and anecdotes, but the claim that somehow Russian ECM is only optimized against US electronic warfare and somehow Swedish electronic warfare systems will have a field day in making Russian radars useless.

    Ironically this article takes a shit on US stealth, a big no-no in western military publications by claiming that proper ECM can make a fighter just as undetectable with proper ECM instead of overexpensive and conditionally detectable stealth.

    Do we actually know if the khibiny and L-Band aesa are inferior in jamming radar and datalinks than whatever gripen or eurocanards use?

    The Russians have been pioneering the field of ECM since the Port Arthur battle against Japan in the Russo-Japanese War. The West didn't really seriously investigate the merits of ECM until post-WW2, and you can't recover 40 years of lag overnight, and surprise they haven't!

    The whole idea that Sweden has superior ECM over the US is amusing because:

    1.) They haven't invested anything in the ball park of what the US invested in ECM, and they're not in the same universe as the Russians for that matter. The Federation has Murmansk-BM units located in the Kola Peninsula (where the Murmansk namesake is located), which is a ECM complex with 5,500km range, and in the right conditions upwards of 8,000km range. Sweden is literally at point-blank range of Murmansk-BM at only a couple hundred km's away. If a ECM complex is capable of being effective at 8,000km away, imagine how powerful it would be within 'relative' spitting's distance!?!

    2.) Gripen's parts are sourced from all over the EU, and mostly NATO nations. The propagandist who wrote that article really thinks the US doesn't know Gripen's capabilities, no doubt they're getting kickbacks for their Stockholm Syndrome. If it was really superior to Uncle Sham's aerial ECM capability, they would prevent it's export at all costs! Safe to say the articles author is a dim-witted jackass!

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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:03 am

    To be fair the west and the Soviets don't have any monopoly on talent and brains, but EW was rarely mentioned by SAAB before tests showed it was inferior in other areas compared with its rivals.... remember this isn't about winning wars... this is about winning export contracts and selling planes.

    The fundamental difference is that for HATO their fighters and AWACS aircraft ARE their IADS and they perform both defence and attack functions, so a Russian capacity to shoot down AWACS aircraft and damage air fields and HQs and comms centres is critical to both the defence and attack capacity of HATO.

    Normally we see the attack capacity because they choose opponents that cannot respond in kind... Saddam in Desert Storm was a shock because he could launch Scuds and they were helpless... it was only the fact that the modified Scuds were even less accurate than normal export Scuds and that they didn't have the Intel or C4IR to direct the missiles to better effect that rendered it less important.

    An enemy like Russia will seriously damage any strike attack into Russian territory because its IADS includes ground based systems that are effective. Russia has been expanding its SAM and air defence gun capacity with every upgrade increasing the number of ready to fire missiles and making the small defence missiles both capable but also cheap enough to produce and use in enormous numbers... TOR and Pantsir are command guided relatively cheap to use missiles... the west has no equivalent.

    Russia has more different types of operational SAM systems than the rest of the world combined and they are all used together to form a defence system that would be very hard to challenge...

    HATOs advantage in aircraft numbers on the face of it makes them seem to be at an advantage, but a closer look you realise their SAM networks don't really exist and are certainly not integrated and working together in any meaningful way.

    In comparison a single flight of four Su-35s take off to meet an incoming flight of 48 Typhoons and you expect a massacre, till you realise the four Su-35s are operating together with a mobile battery of S-400s that starts launching missiles based on target information from a dozen ground based radar systems including over the horizon radars that tracked the Typhoons since they got airborne... the Su-35s are not there to shoot down the Typhoons... they are there to monitor the engagement and deal with any stealthy low flying cruise missiles the Typhoons might launch. The Typhoons start getting shot down before they are 300km away from the Su-35s... how much better will a Gripen do?

    BTW a Gripen might be able to jam a radar on a fighter aircraft like a Typhoon but the jamming signal can be used to direct an R-77 or R-27EP... which means the jamming wont continue for long... plus the Gripen would be incapable of jamming in the L band the Su-35 has mounted in its wing roots which can be used to locate the jamming Gripen and send home on jam missiles to defeat...
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:06 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Europeans have the best scientists in the world

    Well ofcourse Europe does, all of the best scientists live in Russia, the last independent nation in Europe.

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:35 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Europeans have the best scientists in the world

    Well ofcourse Europe does, all of the best scientists live in Russia, the last independent nation in Europe.

    Very funny Rolling Eyes .

    Nazi made the biggest discoveries in the 20th century. Most of military tech is still based on their work.

    Pretty much all the biggest brains in science were from Europe (Einstein, Tesla, Newton...).

    Any guy that has a scientist diploma will tell you that.

    Soviet had very good scientists because the system pushed for good schools and an educated population, I doubt it is still the same in Russia. Just the exemple of Chess game shows you that russians are not at the level of soviets anymore.

    Let's be clear I'm not saying they don't have smart people. I'm just saying that europeans have contributed much more to sciences than russians and they are very well able to design an EW system.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:18 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Very funny Rolling Eyes .

    Nazi made the biggest discoveries in the 20th century. Most of military tech is still based on their work.

    Is this a joke? sure they made a few breakthroughs despite their absurd inefficiency, but do you not think that "Most of military tech" is stretching that a bit too far?

    Pretty much all the biggest brains in science were from Europe (Einstein, Tesla, Newton...).

    Any guy that has a scientist diploma will tell you that.

    I love old Europe just as much as any non liberally retarded European, but the sad truth of it is that Europe flushed itself down the toilet and is now irrecoverable.

    Your scientific community is not what it once was.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:33 pm

    The Nazi's were known for junk-science more than anything, and their race science said Slavic people were inferior to Germanic people.....surprise surprise, by the end of 1945 the great Slavic power (The USSR) ended up curb stomping the great Germanic power (Nazi Germany) to the point where Germany has yet to recover their former military greatness. Nazi's have been falsely attributed for "flying wings", when in reality a Soviet engineer by the name of Boris Cheranovsky flew the first 'Flying Wing' (the BICh-3) back in 1926.

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:40 pm

    Is this a joke? sure they made a few breakthroughs despite their absurd inefficiency, but do you not think that "Most of military tech" is stretching that a bit too far?

    Jet engines for aircraft, ballistic missiles, guided anti ship missiles, crypted machine (enigma) for communication, blitz krieg, nuclear power...

    And many more are still the basis for modern military tech.

    I love old Europe just as much as any non liberally retarded European, but the sad truth of it is that Europe flushed itself down the toilet and is now irrecoverable.

    Your scientific community is not what it once was.

    Today it's hard to compete with US budget so a lot go there. But european scientists are still very good. Much more publications than russians.

    The Nazi's were known for junk-science more than anything, and their race science said Slavic people were inferior to Germanic people.....surprise surprise, by the end of 1945 the great Slavic power (The USSR) ended up curb stomping the great Germanic power (Nazi Germany) to the point where Germany has yet to recover their former military greatness. Nazi's have been falsely attributed for "flying wings", when in reality a Soviet engineer by the name of Boris Cheranovsky flew the first 'Flying Wing' (the BICh-3) back in 1926.

    Without the help of US and winter soviets would have lost. Thry couldn't compete with german war production, more advanced technology and tactics.

    Nazi were fighting alone against UK, US and USSR at the same time.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:24 pm

    Isos wrote:Without the help of US and winter soviets would have lost. Thry couldn't compete with german war production, more advanced technology and tactics.

    Nazi were fighting alone against UK, US and USSR at the same time.

    Wow what a load of crap... do some research buddy

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:09 pm

    Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    Germany much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis and they were very close to create nuclear bombs. Soviets needed on the other hand to wait for US traitors to give them nuks.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:19 pm

    Isos wrote:Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    Nazi were much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis and they were very close to create nucler bombs.

    Not going to discuss with CNN level arguments Isos. The only rational explanation for such dumbed-down notions is nothing but good old Western arrogance, it seems it got ingrained in some people's DNA so deep that it became unconscious. It is the West that will need rehabilitation to become functional and reality based again, so correcting such misconceptions it is ultimately your problem.

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:23 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    Nazi were much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis and they were very close to create nucler bombs.

    Not going to discuss with CNN level arguments Isos. The only rational explanation for such dumbed-down notions is nothing but good old Western arrogance, it seems it got ingrained in some people's DNA so deep that it became unconscious. It is the West that will need rehabilitation to become functional and reality based again, so correcting such misconceptions it is ultimately your problem.

    Your hate for US makes you see Russia as a wonderfull country. Guess what ? It is not. I'm just realistic.

    The other one says they have the best scientists but shows no proof of that.

    You say Soviet could compete alone against Nazi when it wasn't the case and I showed you numbers and facts about that.
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    Post  Finty Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:23 pm

    Isos wrote:Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    Germany much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis

    Really? The Soviets weren't completely powerless, after all they were able to move their tank factories to behind the Urals and bring forward Siberian troops whilst jerry screwed up with overextended supply lines.

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    Post  Isos Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:33 pm

    Finty wrote:
    Isos wrote:Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    Germany much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis

    Really? The Soviets weren't completely powerless, after all they were able to move their tank factories to behind the Urals and bring forward Siberian troops whilst jerry screwed up with overextended supply lines.

    I never said they were powerless without US. I said they helped and the winter helped but they still lost 25 million people.

    Now take out the US help of tens of thousands of aircraft and tanks and also the shipements of raw materials that helped build soviet stuff and also imagine germans were fighting only USSR on one front and not half of the world then IMO they would have won against soviets.
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    Post  LMFS Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:43 pm

    Will leave it to someone with more free time to debunk all that second grader level arguments for the umpteenth time, really...
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    Post  kvs Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:28 am

    LMFS wrote:Will leave it to someone with more free time to debunk all that second grader level arguments for the umpteenth time, really...

    It is the typical western rewriting of history. In a couple of centuries WWII will be case as a war between the holy west and the evil Russians
    where the Russians lost.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:34 am

    Nazi made the biggest discoveries in the 20th century. Most of military tech is still based on their work.

    No they didn't.

    German tanks weren't any better than Soviet or American tanks... they just used better tactics initially, but everyone learned those new tactics eventually which is when they started to lose.

    Most Nazi technology was rubbish and cost them more than it gained.

    Pretty much all the biggest brains in science were from Europe (Einstein, Tesla, Newton...).

    If they had been born in Africa or South America they would still have been just as smart, but lack of access or recognition would have limited their potential.

    Any guy that has a scientist diploma will tell you that.

    A western educated person will tell you white europeans are smarter but only because white europeans are arrogant self centred racists.

    For all their wonderful invention they have done more to damage the world than anyone else in history.

    Just the exemple of Chess game shows you that russians are not at the level of soviets anymore.

    Playing chess does not pay the bills... and computers are better at that mundane shit anyway.

    Let's be clear I'm not saying they don't have smart people. I'm just saying that europeans have contributed much more to sciences than russians and they are very well able to design an EW system.

    Except the west does not develop weapons and systems for war... they make them for peace time and for imperialism... they were more interested in machine gunning blacks so they could steal their resources, so WWI was actually a surprise. It is one thing to fire machine guns at pygmies armed with grass and sharpened fruit... it is completely another when several million German soldiers armed with machine guns and artillery every bit as good as yours stepped in to view... but you just kept marching your troops forward into the bullets... it is OK... they are all dead... our artillery has killed them... you know when they fire artillery at your positions you take cover and wait for the shelling to stop and then go man your machine guns and wait for them to march towards you... you are so smart and intelligent that you don't think they do the same when you shell their positions...


    Jet engines for aircraft, ballistic missiles, guided anti ship missiles, crypted machine (enigma) for communication, blitz krieg, nuclear power...

    Most countries were already working on jet engines for aircraft and also ballistic missiles. Encryption was not new then either and many countries had their own version of Blitzkreig including the Soviets and the British.... and when did the nazis ever have nuclear power?

    And many more are still the basis for modern military tech.

    None of which was uniquely invented by the Nazis.

    Today it's hard to compete with US budget so a lot go there. But european scientists are still very good. Much more publications than russians.

    Publications... that is what you are basing it on.

    Without the help of US and winter soviets would have lost.

    By the time US help had arrived they had already survived the most difficult period... if only there were some europeans who could use their superior brain power and put up a real fight... but there were none.

    Thry couldn't compete with german war production, more advanced technology and tactics.

    There was not a single piece of technology the Germans had that was superior to Soviet equipment that could operate in the field.

    Nazi were fighting alone against UK, US and USSR at the same time.

    The Nazis were fighting the Soviets... the UK did fuck all and the rest of europe immediately surrendered.... and the US fought the nazis in Africa... not much use at all.

    Do it yourself. US shiped lot of stuff like thousands of planes and tanks but most importantly raw materials.

    None of which arrived before the Soviets stopped the Germans at the gates of Moscow in December 1941.

    And that material was SOLD to the Soviets... none of it was free.

    USSR lost 25 millions people during that war.

    The Germans brutally genocided about 18 million civilians... the soldiers lost on both sides was similar... about 10 million each.

    Germany much stronger than them on 1 vs 1 basis and they were very close to create nuclear bombs. Soviets needed on the other hand to wait for US traitors to give them nuks.

    Germany was no where near nuclear bombs and had no heavy planes to deliver anything that could be made bomb like.


    You say Soviet could compete alone against Nazi when it wasn't the case and I showed you numbers and facts about that.

    Russia can obliterate Germany with both its hands tied behind its back.

    I never said they were powerless without US. I said they helped and the winter helped but they still lost 25 million people.

    If the US wants credit they should have launched D day in 1942 when it might have made a difference instead of being a mad scramble to get to Germany before the Soviets did.


    Now take out the US help of tens of thousands of aircraft and tanks and also the shipements of raw materials that helped build soviet stuff and also imagine germans were fighting only USSR on one front and not half of the world then IMO they would have won against soviets.

    Obsolete planes and tanks that were awful, yet had to be paid for, if the Soviets had lost then the UK would be gone and the US too because beating the Soviets would have allowed Japan to get access to more resources with their new soviet allies...

    All the Germans had to do was take Moscow... you know... like that French midget did... we know how that worked out don't we?

    Blame the winter all you want but cold weather is cold weather and both sides have to deal with that... was the weather particularly warm in Vietnam when the French left and then the Americans left?

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    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:40 am

    It is very much the immersion in bullshit effect... just after WWII ended all the western allies knew that the Soviets carried most of the heavy lifting to win the war... but over time the percentage who knew the truth has diminished to the point where celebrations at the defeat of Germany in WWII results in France inviting Germany but not Russia to the commemorations.

    Stupid easily led sheeple... but the centre of civilisation and culture and morality... or they will kill you.

    The Nazis acted with enormous morality and culture and sophistication... that is why they worship them to this day...

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:05 pm

    90% of soldier days of the Wehrmacht were spent at the Eastern Front, and that considers the late self invitation of US to the party in 1944, when the Germans were being steamrolled by the Red Army and were sending teenagers to the front... enough said. If you just know the Western inventions and feats, then of course all has been done by the West. We are getting increasingly retarded, and proud of it Rolling Eyes

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