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    WW II discussion

    Mir
    Mir


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    Post  Mir Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:00 pm

    pukovnik7 wrote:
    Actually, work on Tiger started in 1937., due to a call for a heavy "breakthrough vehicle". It was then revised and accelerated due to experiences in France with British Matilda II and French Char B1 heavy tanks. Final revision to design - which included replacement of 7,5 cm cannon with 8,8 cm one and a significant further weight increase - was due to T-34 and KV-1, but that does not make Tiger a direct response to KV-1.

    German tanks that were a direct response to Soviet designs were Panther (a response to T-34) and Tiger II (a response to the IS series).

    I think it would be fair to say that German intelligence failed big time. They not only underestimated the total number of Soviet tanks that was available at the start of the war, but they also had no idea that the T-34 and KV-1's even existed despite the fact that they were already being produced.

    At the start of the war German tanks were poorly armed and had terrible armour. The only tank of note was the PzIV but it was produced in small numbers as an infantry support tank.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:50 pm

    The initial success of the Nazis was due to the superior organization of the Germans and the inferior organization of their opponents.
    There is a tendency to attribute their success to high tech. An example is the supposed total mechanization when in fact they still
    used horses.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-wwii-german-army-was-80-horse-drawn-business-lessons-from-history/

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    pukovnik7
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    Post  pukovnik7 Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:18 am

    kvs wrote:The initial success of the Nazis was due to the superior organization of the Germans and the inferior organization of their opponents.
    There is a tendency to attribute their success to high tech.   An example is the supposed total mechanization when in fact they still
    used horses.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-wwii-german-army-was-80-horse-drawn-business-lessons-from-history/


    I'd say most important piece of equipment in German arsenal early in the war was radio. All German tanks had it, while during Battle for France and early in invasion of USSR, Allied tanks usually had one radio per every 4 to 5 tanks.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:11 am

    Final revision to design - which included replacement of 7,5 cm cannon with 8,8 cm one and a significant further weight increase - was due to T-34 and KV-1, but that does not make Tiger a direct response to KV-1.

    The reason the Tiger got that last revision was because the 88mm gun was not 100% reliable against the KV-1... there was a situation where a KV-1 stayed behind at an arterial road fork on soft terrain where driving tanks off road was simply not an option. The KV-1 held up the german unit for critical days where they would send in their tanks with 50mm guns and short 76mm guns which didn't do anything, and 88mm guns were destroyed being moved up along with their trucks. They tried satchel charge attacks on the tracks and the gun barrel at night only to be repelled by machine gun fire from the tank. Eventually they managed to distract the KV with an attack by light tanks and were able to set up an 88mm gun and fired 6 rounds to silence the KV. When they approached they found only two of the 88mm rounds even penetrated the tank and the machine guns opened up on them. Apparently a german solider managed to throw hand grenades into an open hatch to eventually defeat the vehicle.

    This was from German records.

    I think it would be fair to say that German intelligence failed big time. They not only underestimated the total number of Soviet tanks that was available at the start of the war, but they also had no idea that the T-34 and KV-1's even existed despite the fact that they were already being produced.

    After WWI the Germans and Soviets secretly cooperated in a range of fields including armour design but that cooperation and assistance ended in 1933 when Hitler seized power.

    There was no cooperation after that.

    The non aggression pact is a non aggression pact... you would not need a non aggression pact with an ally.

    At the start of the war German tanks were poorly armed and had terrible armour. The only tank of note was the PzIV but it was produced in small numbers as an infantry support tank.

    Even with poor armour and not so great guns they were well laid out with the clear roles for each crewman without overloading them with jobs. A gunner just fired the gun, the loader loaded the round the commander told him to load, the driver drove, the commander looked for threats and targets and commanded the vehicle... telling the driver where to go and the gunner what to shoot and the loader what ammo to load.

    The initial success of the Nazis was due to the superior organization of the Germans and the inferior organization of their opponents.

    Coordination of their forces was important... their air force was essentially their tank artillery support, while their actual artillery walked miles behind... the armour rushed ahead and found gaps in fronts and punched through... any powerful position was bypassed and left for infantry and artillery to reduce, while the armour moved forward and took out enemy rear positions and support and supply train...

    The Germans didn't have half tracks till much later in the war and there is a reason no one uses half tracks these days... they are awful.

    I'd say most important piece of equipment in German arsenal early in the war was radio. All German tanks had it, while during Battle for France and early in invasion of USSR, Allied tanks usually had one radio per every 4 to 5 tanks.

    The irony is that the USSR probably had as many radios as Germany did, but they had 10 times as many tanks so one in 9 tanks with a radio... meaning the commanders vehicle had a radio.

    Having radios in vehicles sounds important but actually having better optics and better guns would be more valuable... Aircraft would benefit more from having radios than most tanks would.

    What would you expect them to use the radios for? Look out behind you... there is a German tank... In the dust and smoke of a battle you are not going to know where everyone in your tank unit is.... so how is a radio going to help... apart from letting you hear the screams of crews getting killed?

    Having three man turrets with a gunner and a loader and a commander is much more use than having a radio.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:36 am

    The Germans had a radio operator (do not remember if it was per unit or per tank, I think it was per unit) which had two radios. One in the frequency of the other tanks, and another in the frequency of the air force. So they could call for air strikes directly from the tanks.

    I do think the Tiger was clearly influenced by the KV-1. The fighting in France reinforced the need for a large tank, but it was the KV-1 which set the standard. The original German heavy tank prototype was a lot smaller and had a smaller caliber gun. If you also look at the date of introduction of the Tiger it was clearly after Barbarossa, over a year afterwards. It did not have the redesigned sloped hull like the Panther because they had to rush it into production and there was no time to redesign it. They eventually did it on the Tiger II.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:50 pm

    In the Russian agriculture thread we have the claim that Stalin's treatment of Poles at the start of WWII was as unmotivated crime.
    This is revisionism.   Over 60,000 Soviet POWs died in Polish captivity through neglect during their 1920 invasion of the USSR.    This
    was the Polish land grab of western Belorus and Ukraine that lasted until 1939 when Stalin and Hitler "divided" Poland.   More revisionist
    BS since the USSR got back the lands grabbed by Poland in 1920.   It did not split Poland down the middle as insinuated in the NATzO
    west.

    Soviet forces arrested assorted Polish police and not just officers.   These police were involved in the 1920 invasion and subsequent
    mistreatment of Belorussians and Ukrainians.  The revisionists make it sound like it was wholesale arrests of any Pole aside from the
    peasants.   The arrested individuals were transported for trials inside the USSR.  They were not summarily executed upon arrest.  
    After the Nazis started their war on the eastern front, they quickly moved east and grabbed millions of Soviet POWs and also the Polish
    officers in Soviet captivity who were still "en route".  

    The Katyn massacre was indeed a Nazi crime.   Forensic excavation of the various sites related to this atrocity showed that Polish
    officer badges were located in Nazi controlled territory concurrent with the mass killing.   These are excavations conducted by
    westerners and included nationalist Ukrainians.   These are not Russian fairy tales.   Such forensics are the only objective information
    about this event.   All the cold war yapping and Gorbie's admission based on forged documents mean jack shit.  

    Katyn is a cold war fake like the Holodomor.    The USSR was not into ethnic extermination for obvious reasons.   The NATzO west
    always tries to equate the Nazis and the Soviets.    We have wild claims about 60 million people killed by the Soviets in the USSR.
    Claims pulled straight from the ass without a shred of proof.   The civil war famine of the post revolution period and the collectivization
    famines of the 1930s (which occurred not just in Ukraine but on the Volga) are treated as an analog of the Holocaust.   The
    Holodomor "Holocaust" is such revisionist propaganda.   The role of farmers in destroying their crops and livestock is systematically
    omitted and instead the supposed sequestration of seed grains is used as evidence.   This is a fake story concocted to push a lie narrative.  

    What is more, the so-called Holodomor affected eastern Soviet Ukraine while the western part was part of Poland during the 1930s.  
    There are lots of ethnic Russians in the east of Ukraine.   But the revisionists want to everyone to believe that it was Russians
    ethnically exterminating Ukrainians.   So we have frothing at the mouth Banderites claiming that the ethnic Russians in the Donbass
    are squatters who moved in after the ethnic Ukrianians were killed off.   Pure blood libel of a claim.

    The Polish officers had no business in the western Ukraine and Belorus and it was their German allies (which they wanted as allies
    as per Munich in 1938) that did all the killing.   But the USSR gets smeared for retaking its own land and for a mass killing it did not
    commit.    

    I am sure that the current war in Soviet delineated Ukraine will be converted into some sort of Holocaust-like event.   Evil Russian
    killing pure Ukrainian innocents.   Because all of NATzO knows that there are no ethnic Russians in Ukraine.   A common theme,
    where Russia haters can't get their story straight.

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