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    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Serious lack of air defence systems...

    I agree it could be better, but there seems ample space to add more options. The Pantsyr-M is still a better option that what they did on the Ivan Gren.
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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:44 am

    Nice touch though with two models of the ka-65 Minoga on board. Cool

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 13 Ka65-m10

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    Post  Hole Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 13 Fawala10

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    Post  xeno Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:30 pm

    Original size please... if possible...
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    Post  xeno Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:41 pm

    No need, found it...
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    Post  Mir Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:15 pm

    The bridge areas provide for good all round visibility - excellent from a safety point of view.
    It also seems as if the two lifts have been significantly enlarged from the older model Hole posted.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:14 am

    Besides, if we take a Chinese 071 type to compare, they have 2x RAM-like systems and 2x plain gun CIWS. Here you can see a double Pancyr, that combines both, so it has the same number of missile system, same gun systems - only combined. And the missiles are about 5-7x the range.

    In that case though the Chinese are copying western levels of air defence and not Soviet... isn't ironic that the air power focussed west is very lax when it comes to air defence for ground and naval forces... they expect their air power to be there and to get the job done.

    The Soviet and Russian Army and Navy generally expect to be left on their own with no air support and arm their forces to expect to have to defend themselves accordingly.

    I guess that there is some nice VLS system hidden somewhere we can't see.

    When I first saw drawings of this ship those... what appear to be crates in front of the island were coloured blue and appeared to be a vertical launch system, but on this model appear to be rather strange shallow crates... unless they are recessed into the deck... and why would they be?

    The drawings also showed similar blue "launch bins" on each corner of the deck... I mean if you look at the Kuznetsov the launch bins for the old Kinzhal don't take up a lot of space and new modern versions would take up even less and instead of fitting four sensor mounts, one in each corner of the island they could perhaps put them in each corner of the deck out of the way. Using just a grid array of launch tubes with the newer missiles they could easily carry them in large numbers all ready to fire... super cheap command guided missiles which are rather accurate in their current versions... and something they could retrofit to smaller vessels and the Kuznetsov itself as well.

    Nice touch though with two models of the ka-65 Minoga on board.

    I remember in the 1990s seeing models from the 1970s that were to represent what the Kuznestov and Ulyanovsk classes were going to look like and they both showed MiG-23Ks. I think it might have made a rather good carrier based plane actually, but the Su-33 and the MiG-29K made more sense for the real carriers of course... just like now the Su-57 and a new smaller aircraft would make more sense moving forward too for their next gen fixed wing carriers.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:16 am

    Maybe make these nuclear powered and replace the two masts smoke stacks with Redut launchers... Twisted Evil

    Good real world test for NPPs they will be using on destroyers and cruisers soon...

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    Post  Mir Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:50 am

    GarryB wrote:

    I remember in the 1990s seeing models from the 1970s that were to represent what the Kuznestov and Ulyanovsk classes were going to look like and they both showed MiG-23Ks. I think it might have made a rather good carrier based plane actually, but the Su-33 and the MiG-29K made more sense for the real carriers of course... just like now the Su-57 and a new smaller aircraft would make more sense moving forward too for their next gen fixed wing carriers.

    Yes those were actual projects but were later canceled (including the Mig-23K). The Kuznetsov and Ulyanovsk were later projects.

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    Post  Hole Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:15 pm

    The ship will stay away from the coast most of the time, that´s why it carries helicopters and landing craft/AVC´s. But additional AD weapons will come in containerized form if the mission requires it.
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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:10 pm

    https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/uspeshno_zversheny_zavodskie_ispytaniya_podrulivayuschego_ustroystva_moschnostyu_1_mvt.html

    The tests took place in Nizhny Tagil on February 10. The thruster was manufactured by Ship Propulsion Complexes for the project 23900 ship.

    The tests were attended by representatives of the customer from the plant. Butoma, Kerch, department of transport support and maritime register.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:11 am

    The ship will stay away from the coast most of the time, that´s why it carries helicopters and landing craft/AVC´s. But additional AD weapons will come in containerized form if the mission requires it.

    At the very least a ship needs to be able to defend itself, or at least contribute to that defence... this is supposed to be a warship and most gun mounts are fully dual purpose systems that can be very useful in various different situations.

    The talk of extending the firing range of 152mm guns to 180km suggests a bit of naval gunfire support should be practical, though mounted on a cruiser it could have plenty of ammo on board and not take away from the primary role of a helicopter carrier which is carrying troops and armour and support equipment to support a landing.

    Perhaps some sort of gunship could be on the cards in the future able to fire the sort of amount of ammo we see being fired in the Ukraine conflict per day...

    Perhaps even a longer ranged 203mm gun could be joint developed between the Navy and Army to reach 250km with guided HE shells... what better way to launch a swarm attack on an enemy ship than to fire 120kg guided shells from 250km away at a rate of 60 rounds per minute... most defences would be overwhelmed very quickly... some western ships wouldn't even stop the first shell...

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:28 am

    June 22, 07:02
    Source: new helicopter carrier ships will be equipped with unmanned boats for self-defense
    According to the source, we are talking about autonomous reconnaissance boats of the Typhoon type.

    "Project 23900 amphibious assault ships, in addition to a group of sea helicopters, will carry on board and control unmanned boats designed for anti-submarine and mine defense of the ship," the agency's interlocutor said during the International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2023).

    He clarified that we are talking about unmanned reconnaissance boats of the Typhoon type, equipped with drones and sensors for detecting foreign submarines. In addition, unmanned boats "Skanda" will be based on board the UDC, designed to search for and neutralize sea mines.

    Earlier, a TASS source said that the Project 23900 UDC, in addition to basing a group of marine helicopters, will carry and control a certain number of attack and reconnaissance helicopter-type drones.

    TASS has no official information on this matter.

    In February 2021, TASS reported that the shipbuilders of the Zaliv plant began to form the hulls of two UDCs. They are capable of carrying a group of heavy helicopters for various purposes, transporting from several hundred to 1,000 or more marines.
    They are equipped with a dock for boats that provide landings and transport armored vehicles. The first two domestic ships of this class - Ivan Rogov and Mitrofan Moskalenko - were laid down at the Zaliv shipyard on July 20, 2020. Russian helicopter carriers are being built according to project 23900, developed by the Zelenodolsk Design Bureau.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18084543

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    Post  Arrow Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:33 pm

    The work is moving forwar. You have to remember that these are ships with a displacement half of huge aircraft carriers, so it's a powerful structure Very Happy


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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:07 pm

    Article that suggests the Pr 23900 will be significantly larger than expected, with a hull length of some 280m rather than the anticipated 220m.

    source

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 13 00112210

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    Post  wilhelm Mon Jun 26, 2023 3:47 pm

    I'm not so sure.
    The front keel is off the centre line.
    It looks like it has simply been placed within the drydock, and will be moved into the correct place via the overhead gantry as the rest of the keel progresses toward it.
    Still, interesting update.
    I was wondering when we would get some news.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:10 am

    They started out with 20K ton Mistral ships and currently are talking about 40K ton vessels so it is already much bigger than it was going to be.

    But that is good because bigger means more room for things and more flexibility.

    It might be able to carry 1,000 marines and helicopters and armoured vehicles to deliver them to and move them around on the battlefield but most of the time it will carry rather less and be able to operate longer further afield.

    It is a bit like a fixed wing carrier... aim for bigger than you need... no one was ever upset for buying a computer hard drive that just had too much capacity... you use it eventually.

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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:56 am

    They couldn't make a labding in Ukraine, why they bother making any landing ship.

    Result from Ukraine show you need cruise missiles to blow up everything accross the enemy land. Nowadays any country can get shore based batteries and destroy a landing force pretty easily. And with those semi-sub drones with 200kg warheads it's even easier.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 27, 2023 11:20 am

    The tests took place in Nizhny Tagil on February 10. The thruster was manufactured by Ship Propulsion Complexes for the project 23900 ship.

    The tests were attended by representatives of the customer from the plant. Butoma, Kerch, department of transport support and maritime register.

    That is interesting... those look like thruster pods... which suggests instead of having a conventional shaft and propeller it might have thrusters and electric propulsion which would be rather interesting and quite innovative...

    They couldn't make a labding in Ukraine, why they bother making any landing ship.

    Who said they can't make a landing... the new landing ships don't need to be used for landing even if that is what they are... a friendly country having a colour revolution imposed on them might invite Russia to send some troops to help stabilise the situation... sending naval infantry is easier because they come with full armour and support helicopters around the world when needed.

    Using hovercraft to deploy troops and armour they could fly over mines and defensive structures on the beach... the point is that the landing force are like a parachute force... with their armour they have mobility so they don't need to land on the target they are attacking, which is likely to be well defended from air or sea attack... landing 50km away and then driving to the target means a sea based attack... you could attack an airfield and have further ground forces come in via air power too to support your attack and give weight to your light mobile forces.

    When Russian ground forces attack Odessa I don't think a Ukrainian army will even exist as a proper entity and to support their attack from the East, a landing force could take Ukrainian territory from the western side of Odessa and rapidly surround the city with negotiations with the city leadership to start on a surrender rather than a siege.

    These landing ships wont be ready till 2028 at the very least so they will likely only be used in the next conflict with the west...

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    Post  AMCXXL Wed Jun 28, 2023 1:23 am

    GarryB wrote:When Russian ground forces attack Odessa I don't think a Ukrainian army will even exist as a proper entity and to support their attack from the East, a landing force could take Ukrainian territory from the western side of Odessa and rapidly surround the city with negotiations with the city leadership to start on a surrender rather than a siege.

    These landing ships wont be ready till 2028 at the very least so they will likely only be used in the next conflict with the west...

    these ships are more like troop transports / floating bases but rule out their use in open conflict, as they are floating targets like all other surface ships

    On Odessa, rule out an assault on the city, when Ukraine falls apart the city's own inhabitants will seize power and request the protection of the Russian Federation.
    Remember that the Odessa People's Republic was proclaimed there in 2014

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:46 am

    these ships are more like troop transports / floating bases but rule out their use in open conflict, as they are floating targets like all other surface ships

    Yeah, you have written off all surface ships, which means HATO is really in the shit because they have lots and lots of very expensive targets and their primary enemy has hypersonic anti ship missiles... in comparison Russia lacks a lot of surface ships but at least its main enemies don't have hypersonic weapons to threaten them.

    These are landing ships, so you load them up with troops and armour and you ship them to where they are needed... which might be an open area of beach to land via landing boats, hovercraft and helicopter, or it might be via a friendly held port, or some humanitarian mission or disaster relief, but in any case they will not operate alone and will have a range of support vessels operating with them all looking for threats and dangers and all prepared to shoot things down.

    The new naval air defence systems are based on the latest ground based air defence systems which seems to be effective most of the time... the difference is that land based systems have to defend the entire battlefield... which of course they can't so we get situations where the enemy shells civilian targets and Russian military air defences don't stop them all... well with naval systems they don't need to stop the enemy landing missiles and shells and rockets into empty ocean... all the potential targets will also be armed ships with sensors and communications equipment and air defence weapons.... unlike the Ukraine where populated areas might not have any air defence systems defending them because there are simply more populated areas than air defence units.

    By the time these landing ships are in the water and operational they should have the improved Gorshkovs in service and at the very least some new design destroyers laid down and in production.

    They are emergency tools so if there is an emergency they might use them, but they are also brand new and will take quite a few years to work out tactics and procedures for using them properly.

    It took experience in Syria to work a few things out regarding carrier operations, and it wont be any different for new large helicopter landing ships.

    On Odessa, rule out an assault on the city, when Ukraine falls apart the city's own inhabitants will seize power and request the protection of the Russian Federation.
    Remember that the Odessa People's Republic was proclaimed there in 2014

    I hope you are right... a lot of bloodshed could have been avoided if more had been as smart as this, but you can't bank on them doing a sensible thing like that without pressure so that the undecided don't listen to the idiots...

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:28 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Article that suggests the Pr 23900 will be significantly larger than expected, with a hull length of some 280m rather than the anticipated 220m.

    source

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 13 00112210

    @charly0153
    Va tomando forma, el Ivan Rogov
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:28 am

    With the recent experience from the SMO, ships of this size should no longer be launched without a 96x TORM2U. The cargo and the ship are far too valuable and a worthwhile goal for that.

    Let's imagine there are 500 marines and equipment as well as helicopters here. The value in the event of a loss would be exorbitant.

    Without TORM2U, it is a betrayal of the Russian armed forces. No matter which ship is providing support, it must be able to defend itself and 2 or 3 CIWS are simply not enough.

    It can therefore also offer the landing troops a small protective screen.

    The same applies to the improved ships of the 11711 class. Here, too, it should not be launched without TORM"U. In today's conflict environment, there will always be a state supporter, even in "small" conflicts, who can provide saturation attacks with various drones and decoy missiles.

    It would be fatal to underestimate the new drone capabilities and capacities! There is only one very reliable means like TOR and this with enough defensive missiles!

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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:20 am

    I would say a useful addition would be 57mm gun mounts with air burst ammo and proper radar and EO sensors to detect targets in the air and on the sea surface, plus of course SAMs including but not limited to naval TOR... they were working on new TOR missiles designed to hit small drones and enemy artillery shells and rockets.

    The Kuznetsov had 196 launch tubes but that was the very old bigger missiles from the first TOR that only carried 8 rather big missiles. The newer TOR with 16 ready to fire missiles takes up the same space with double the missile load and the new missiles (which we have not seen yet) double that capacity again.

    The new laser systems they are using for shooting down drones would be useful too...

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    Post  Mir Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:22 am

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:With the recent experience from the SMO, ships of this size should no longer be launched without a 96x TORM2U. The cargo and the ship are far too valuable and a worthwhile goal for that.

    Let's imagine there are 500 marines and equipment as well as helicopters here. The value in the event of a loss would be exorbitant.

    Without TORM2U, it is a betrayal of the Russian armed forces. No matter which ship is providing support, it must be able to defend itself and 2 or 3 CIWS are simply not enough.

    It can therefore also offer the landing troops a small protective screen.

    The same applies to the improved ships of the 11711 class. Here, too, it should not be launched without TORM"U. In today's conflict environment, there will always be a state supporter, even in "small" conflicts, who can provide saturation attacks with various drones and decoy missiles.

    It would be fatal to underestimate the new drone capabilities and capacities! There is only one very reliable means like TOR and this with enough defensive missiles!

    Yes I have mentioned before that the 11711's need to have far more powerful AA assets than what is currently the case. Nothing wrong with the AK but it's way under-armed for a principal ship. Not just TOR as you've mentioned but a combination of guns and missiles. Something like TOR + Pantsyr would be a vast improvement.

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