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    Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Empty Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:44 am

    War 08.08.08 & 10 years of struggle for the sovereignty of Russia
    https://jpgazeta.ru/aleksandr-rodzhers-voyna-08-08-08-i-desyat-let-borbyi-za-suverenitet-rossii/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=infox.sg&utm_campaign=exchange

    Russian PM hopes NATO will have enough sense not to admit Georgia
    http://tass.com/politics/1016262

    PM Medvedev Warns Of 'Horrible' Conflict If Georgia Joins NATO
    http://www.eurasiareview.com/08082018-russia-pm-medvedev-warns-of-horrible-conflict-if-georgia-joins-nato/

    Now that Armenia is leaving the RF orbit, Georgia may feel that her rear is secure:
    https://eurasianet.org/s/armenian-investigators-charge-head-of-russia-led-security-bloc-with-subverting-public-order

    https://www.rferl.org/a/lavrov-russia-concerned-armenian-arrest-former-pro-moscow-leaders-kocharian-khachaturov-pashinian/29402249.html

    https://eurasianet.org/s/russian-press-portrays-pashinyan-as-carbon-copy-of-poroshenko

    If a 2nd war breaks out, Georgia may be cut in half for direct land access to Armenia from the N. & S. Ossetia.
    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Georgia-road-map

    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Armenia-map
    RF may also use the Azeris to put military pressure on Armenia.
    Clearly, too many things r at stake there for Russia!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am

    When I first saw the suggestion that Georgia might be split to allow Russian land access to Armenia, I dismissed it out of hand, but after thinking about it... if you had said that Russia would not only get full control of Sevastopol, but also the whole pennisula of the Crimea in the 90s or early 2000s I would have laughed at you and said it would not be possible without enormous bloodshed...

    Of course who knew how stupid the US can be when it breaks up countries for its own interests... they clearly wanted Sevastopol for a NATO port and they totally blew it.

    In this case they want gas pipes from the Caspian that bypass Russia... wonder what mistake they might make next....
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:53 pm

    By admitting Georgia into the alliance, NATO could send a message to Russia. But by the same token, some Western officials worry that Georgia joining NATO could provoke Moscow. Visiting Washington, Alasania not only laid out the case for Georgian accession, but sought to calm fears that Georgia would be dragging anyone into a war—and that Tbilisi expects other countries to do the main work of defending Georgia. “No one is asking for others to do our fighting for us,” he said. But collective defense is exactly what NATO is for. Some member states strongly oppose admitting Tbilisi.
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-republic-of-georgia-is-preparing-for-the-worst-776541b1edb2

    Role of Georgia in the War in Afghanistan (2001–14) & Iraq
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%9314)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_Iraq_War#Deployment_history

    They'll come to regret it: Trump’s Foreign Policy on Georgia – You Helped Us, Now “U are Bad 4-Doing-So!”
    https://journal-neo.org/2017/02/16/trump-s-foreign-policy-on-georgia-you-helped-us-now-u-are-bad-4-doing-so/
    US Mil. Accuses Georgians of Stealing From US AB in Afghanistan
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201807311066835061-us-military-accuse-georgian-troops-stealing/

    In contrast,
    The Azerbaijani government has however delayed implementing IPAP-recommended reforms, however, in part at least because no decision had been taken to seek NATO membership. This is because Azerbaijan's foreign policy 'seeks to balance interests with the U.S., EU, Russia and Iran.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_Armed_Forces#NATO
    They use & play bigger countries off each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_Armed_Forces#Turkey

    Armenia is also moving in that direction:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Armenia#International_military_cooperation

    Note that all 3 of them don't like & fought each other:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Georgia
    http://minorityrights.org/minorities/armenians-2/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Abkhazia#History

    http://www.armenian-history.com/Nyuter/demography/Demographic%20changes%20of%20Armenian%20population%20of%20Georgia%20and%20their%20political%20consequences%20(at%201918-since%20our%20days).htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Azerbaijan
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_Azerbaijan#1991_to_present

    As in Ukraine, there r Challenges to coexistence in Georgia
    http://www.css.ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/gess/cis/center-for-securities-studies/pdfs/CSSAnalyse-186-EN.pdf

    Georgians alienated & antagonized their Ossetians & Abhasians; that ended their control over them. RF may count on Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian Armenians &/ Azeris to help her truncate Georgia once more, thus preventing another Kosovo & Montenegro scenario.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Russia#Soviet_Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Ukraine#Armenian_community_in_modern_Ukraine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Samtskhe%E2%80%93Javakheti
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Ukraine
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis_in_Georgia#Present-day


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:30 am; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : add links, text)
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 pm

    I really hope the Armenians completly shake off Russian dominance and somehow burry the hatchet with Azerbaijan. The current situation is redicilous and stripped of any reasoning.
    Both Armenia and Azerbaijan receive arms and military hardware from Russia eventough Russia officialy sides with Armenia. Blood money is nothing new, but doing it so nonchalant without even hiding it is another level and the Armenians are not happy about that at all.
    Russia must finaly arrive in the 21st century and acknowledge the existence, souvereignity and internationaly recognized borders of its neighbours. All of Georgia's efforts since the mid 1990s are a direct consequence of Russian inteference and aggression. We've been non-stopped threatened and violated as soon as we declared our 2nd independence. A country centuries older than its northern neighbour. You can't twist that fact in any way perceivable, even when Georgia overreacted to provocations in 2008. There were so many violations committed by Russian forces, their status as "peacekeepers" was questioned at that point by everyone. Alleged of sabotage, illegaly distributing Russian passports, skirmishes, arming and training of rebels aka taking side from the very beginning, which completly violates and nullifies their mandate already there, and what not .... Things didn't start there in the first place but apparently Russians choose to believe in fairy tales rather than historical facts, and apparently history only began in 2008 .... Sorry to break it to you, but it began with the Bolsheviks stirring up revolts in the 1920s, the same tactic was used by the Russian Federation in 1991 and we know the rest. Literaly not one single point of the Peace Agreement has thus far been respected by Russia.
    Things are made worse by Russia's continues policy of aggression and heavy mentality of no F's given since 2009. Every single Georgian village in South Ossetia that was not destroyed as a consequence of the war, was leveled in order to prevent refugees from returning home, with the excuse that the territory was required for Russian military bases. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic for the people. Their homes got completly flattened for that purpose. Some 17k people from SO are stuck in IDP camps to this very date. Instead of showing somewhat simphaty an have a base for compromise, fences and wires are installed, partialy going through inhabitated Georgian villages at the Russian proclaimed "border" lines, which they push ever deeper into never before contested Georgian territory every singe year since 2008.
    Mind you, all of that is observed at place and documented by the international community and their observers.
    There is virtualy not even any kind of tactical / strategic justificaiton from their own POV for that behaviour, its 10 years after the war.
    Not to mention how people living near those imaginary "borders" regularily get robbed, kidnapped, tortured and murdered by their separatist muppets and possibly also themselves.
    Dare me more "RuSsIa iS ThE tRuE ViCtim" ....
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:36 pm

    Armenia, Korea & Byzantium r even more ancient but the empires that come after them don't have any such scruples & could care less.
    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey; it could become a 2nd Armenia otherwise.
    If ethnic Georgian Stalin wasn't in power for so long, Russia & Georgia would be different today. There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO. So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:32 am

    Russia is not the victim.... the South Ossetian and Abkhazians are the victims and Georgia is the bully, but Russia is a bigger bully and stopped Georgia from raping SO and ABk.

    Now Georgia has started the process of joining a military gang called NATO in the hopes that its new friends might be able to give it some leverage, but I doubt SO and ABk cares.

    It will certainly bother Russia, but that will only make thing easier to justify all those fences and guns and armour in SO and ABk to keep the peace.

    Amusing that the country you suck up to created your dire situation today...

    If Kosovo did not declare independence then Russia would not have opened its borders to SO and ABk, and they would never have been able to become more independent of Georgia.

    Letting Georgians go back to SO and ABk is rather unlikely, they have no homes to go back to, and their influence in politics is not welcome I would suspect, because their view of Georgia is rather different from those who stayed in SO and ABk and those that died at the hands of the Georgian troops.

    There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO.

    Indeed... Georgia is actively setting itself up to oppose Russia whereever it can... why would Russia want to be friends?

    As I have said... it is not about friendship... there is none... so that leaves interests...

    The best thing Georgia could do is kick the Americans and NATO out and say they are sorry for the actions they have taken that have damaged relations, and in a few generations when things settle down their might be a possibility of getting SO and ABk to rejoin Georgia, but joining NATO and rearming is the opposite of that... it might make you feel safer, but will not get you what you really want... in fact it will take you further away from what you desire... but it is your choice... keep blaming Russia for all your problems and keep believing the West is somehow nicer and better and has your interests at heart.
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:01 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Armenia, Korea & Byzantium r even more ancient but the empires that come after them don't have any such scruples & could care less.
    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey; it could become a 2nd Armenia otherwise.
    If ethnic Georgian Stalin wasn't in power for so long, Russia & Georgia would be different today. There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces"; also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO. So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!

    It doesn't matter if it's just Kingdom of Georgia from 1000 to 1500 or Colchis/Iberia. Same issue. My point is that Russia tries to envoke claims on territories and peoples that don't belong to them and far predate Russia as a unified empire and / state.

    Well it's very evident that they don't, but they should because we and the others they deal with, do care. Its our culture, our history, our lands.

    In fact, the Russian empire saved Georgia from the Ottoman Empire of Turkey

    You and some others here and in such discussions supporting the poor and unsupported Russian narrative, have a very strange definition of "saving".

    First of all, Armenians and especialy Georgians prevented countless islamic invasions over the Caucasus mountains into nowadays Russia by just #existing. Well except for the Mongols, they consistently overran whatever they came across.

    Secondly, when Georgia was bloodied and on it's knee as a result of Ottoman and Persian invasions, yes true, it turned to it's Christian brother to the north for aid and signed, or was rather forced out of dire necessity to sign, the treaty of Georgievsk, not earlier than 1783, which made Georgia effectively a Russian protectorate if not so formaly.
    When the Persians invaded again, the Russians ignored the call for help and watched as Georgia got slaughtered. Their excuse was "turmoil in Europe". Fine. Let's accept that for a moment.
    But what about afterwards ? same thing. Only now the Russians replaced the Persians as invaders and annexed all of Georgia and that was easy because resistance was virtualy gone at that point and the Persians were busy anyway.
    No that period of slowly annexing every Georgian principality one by one is not "saving". You don't "save" anyone, when people don't want you to annex them, and are fighting against you with what breath remains in them .....
    Consequently after defeating the last remains of resistance, half of the Georgian nobility was relocated to Russia and russified while the other half had to swear allegience and fealty at gun point.
    Tell me, how the F is that "saving" .... ?

    Just minor *details* right .... ? ^^

    Ok, fine. Let's ignore that for a moment.
    Did the Georgians EVER benefit from that ? no. Did the Russians ? hell yeah. Tens of thousands of Georgians and many famous generals fought and won victories for them in the Caucasus, Crimea and Persia. Georgia only suffered from Russian military ambitions as pretty much the supply storage and massing area.

    Oh yeah, also lot of "saving" in 1921 ....

    There must be a good reason for separatism in ex-Georgian "provinces";

    Yes ! incidently, there happens to be a story behind it. If people actualy took the effort to at least glance over the history of other nations, they'd know.
    The modern Ossetian conflict dates back to the 1920s when the Bolsheviks stirred everything up as their greater plan to invade the South Caucasus. The Ossetians / or Alans actualy are not indeginous to Georgia. They settled from Persia to the North Caucasus aka nowadays Russia. But as a result of Mongol invasions they were driven off their homeland and migrated to Georgia and thought it was a good plan to force themselves upon us by simply invading and removing the Georgian population from the area. They took a foothold, and occupied Gori for some decades but were then driven back over the mountains when the Georgian monarch regained power. Many centuries later, they began to migrate again, now due to the Circassians pushing them out of their homeland, only now the Georgian ruler of Kartli ( thus why Georgians refer to it as Shida Kartli and not "South Ossetia" ) allowed them to actualy settle down besides the Georgians living there. So they kept slowly migrating from the 17-18th century on.
    All was peaceful until the Bolsheviks took over in Russia and instigated revolts in Kartli with the Ossetians first demanding and then forcefuly taking the lands they lived on from the local Georgian feudal lords killing them and also taking the town Tskhinvali murdering and expelling its Georgian population. The Georgian government in return restored order after bloody fighting and committed punitive actions against the rebels. Seeing how rebelions didn't work out too well in the South Caucasus, Russia simply invaded the Democratic Republic of Georgia in 1921, took over and renamed the Kartli province to "South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast" and thus a base for future conflicts was crafted. So yes, nothing of that is remotely legitimate. Not historicaly, not rightfully, not even by name. There is your good, or rather foul, reason if you are an even remotely sane person. It's called history.

    also Georgia supported the Chechen rebels

    Bullshit. When. Where. How. ?

    Chechens fought us in Abkhazia, in South Ossetia in the 1990s and again in 2008.

    When Russia massacred half of Chechnya refugees streamed over our border. We did what humans would have done.
    But many fighters were among them, and we tried to disarm them, and captured we could.

    In fact, Georgian security services often assisted, gave intel, and also extradited captured Chechen insurgents to Russia. What Russians are upset about, is that we chose the United States to train and help our army instead of allowing Russian troops onto our territory to fight Chechens themselves. So in retaliation they made up fake ass stories about how we supposedly "hosted" and "trained" them and present a threat, all to avoid US foothold in Georgia. Laughable. I can tell you a number of ppl who fought them in the mountains. Many also died.

    allowed her volunteers to fight for Ukraine in Donbass & wants to join NATO

    What is this .... a joke ? yeah, completly out of the blue. No background whatsoever. Why am I even trying .... ?

    People from all countries go volunteer fighting for ISIS including your Korea.

    Ukrainians are our allies and a couple dozen veterans who don't even serve in the GAF felt obliged to help our Ukrainian allies against a common threat. That is absolutly understandable. Half of them are people who actualy live there. So did people from many other countries join the Ukrainians.

    The Geo government officialy forbids that, but that's something you can't control anyway. I personaly don't mind. To me its just a sad waste of good resource in another dirty Russian instigated proxy war.


    So, don't fault Russia for protecting her interests in Transcaucasia!

    Damn that statement is so over the top cheesy, toxic and offensive I almost vomited.

    Russia is not the only country on the globe.

    Russia is not the only country others need to respect the souvereignity and integrity of.

    Don't fault other peoples and nations for opposing Russia to defend their own lifes and lands!

    You talk as if Russia was the only country on this planet. Wonder if you'd be equaly supporting if you found yourselves in our situation.


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:57 am; edited 7 times in total
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:02 am

    GarryB wrote:Russia is not the victim.... the South Ossetian and Abkhazians are the victims and Georgia is the bully....

    ....Georgia is actively setting itself up to oppose Russia whereever it can....

    ....say sorry....

    what is this, a contest of who writes the more autistic comment ? ^^

    If anything, the right thing to do: is for Russia to apologize for all the conflicts it instigated, second the Abkhazians for what they've done especialy with all the massacres and mass exodus of the Georgian majority in the region. Actualy if they had any decency, they would first. But they won't anyway seing how thes celebrate their mass murderers as heros.

    But yes, that's now how it works, since Russia is the more powerful nation. So yeah, utlimately Georgia will lead with example, once again, followed by Russia if they have any sense of decency, honor and anything humane left. Guess, that will never happen.

    Georgia does everything in its power to normalise relations, Russia does the total opposite. Facts don't lie and the world is not blind. They are literaly there damnit and withnessing and documenting everything. Why are you still lying out of your bottocks ? Russia boosts its presence ever further in both occupied provinces. Georgia tries desperatly to acquire measures of self defence, with little to no results so far but some minor acquirements that have insigificant meaning. NATO will NEVER allow Georgia to be part of them. That is virtualy manifested.

    What you propose is so laughable, not even Kremlin's PR machine believes in it.

    Why is it that you supposedly "non-Russians" living abroad, are always more toxic than full blooded Russians, whom you can at least reason with and trust to have the very least basic educational and historical knowledge ?

    Is is that you are trying to prove yourselves .... ?
    You don't prove yourself by such levels of ignorance and denial of reality.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:35 am

    People from all countries go volunteer fighting for ISIS including your Korea.
    I'm not Korean, but do u have any sources about Koreans fighting for ISIS? In any case, does Georgia prosecute its citizens who been fighting for Ukraine?
    Its our culture, our history, our lands
    U r biased:
    Georgian people formed a unified Kingdom of Georgia in the early 11th century and inaugurated the Georgian Golden Age, a height of political and cultural power of the nation. This lasted until being weakened by Mongol invasions, as well as internal divisions following the death of George V the Brilliant, the last of the great kings of Georgia. Thereafter and throughout the early modern period, Georgians became politically fractured and were dominated by the Ottoman Empire and successive dynasties of Iran. To ensure the survival of his polity, in 1783, Heraclius II of the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti forged an alliance with the Russian Empire. The Russo-Georgian alliance, however, backfired as Russia was unwilling to fulfill the terms of the treaty, proceeding to annex the troubled kingdom in 1801, as well as the western Georgian kingdom of Imereti in 1810. Russian rule over Georgia was eventually acknowledged in various peace treaties with Iran and the Ottomans, and the remaining Georgian territories were absorbed by the Russian Empire in a piecemeal fashion in the course of the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Russian_Empire

    After Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, a native Georgian, died in 1953, a wave of protest spread against Nikita Khrushchev and his de-Stalinization reforms, leading to the death of nearly one hundred students in 1956. From that time on, Georgia would become marred with blatant corruption and increased alienation of the government from the people.
    By the 1980s, Georgians were ready to abandon the existing system altogether. A pro-independence movement led to the secession from the Soviet Union in April 1991. For most of the following decade, post-Soviet Georgia suffered from civil conflicts, secessionist wars in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and economic crisis. Following the bloodless Rose Revolution in 2003, Georgia strongly pursued a pro-Western foreign policy; aimed at NATO and European integration, it introduced a series of democratic and economic reforms. This brought about mixed results, but strengthened state institutions. The country's Western orientation soon led to the worsening of relations with Russia, culminating in the brief Russo-Georgian War in August 2008 and Georgia's current territorial dispute with Russia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

    Under the rule of Stalin and Beria Abkhaz schools were closed, requiring Abkhaz children to study in the Georgian language. The publishing of materials in Abkhazian dwindled and was eventually stopped altogether; Abkhazian schools were closed in 1945/46. In the terror of 1937-38, the ruling elite was purged of Abkhaz and by 1952 over 80% of the 228 top party and government officials and enterprise managers were ethnic Georgians; there remained 34 Abkhaz, 7 Russians and 3 Armenians in these positions. Georgian Communist Party leader Candide Charkviani supported the Georgianization of Abkhazia.
    The policy of repression was eased after Stalin's death and Beria's execution, and the Abkhaz were given a greater role in the governance of the republic. As in most of the smaller autonomous republics, the Soviet government encouraged the development of culture and particularly of literature.[citation needed] The Abkhazian ASSR was the only autonomous republic in the USSR in which the language of the titular nation (in that case Abkhazian) was confirmed in its constitution as one of its official languages.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Soviet_Union
    Pl. don't tell me that Abkhazians migrated from elsewhere before inundating & pushing the native Georgians out. Past injustices between Ossetians & Georgians r not justification for of what happened in 2008.
    W/o the Russian Empire annexing Georgia, there probably wouldn't be Georgia now, or at least 1 within its present borders, & a Georgian like Stalin would never have a chance to rule not only Georgia, but 1/6th of the Earth surface. His despotism cost many millions of Russian lives, putting him on a par with Hitler & Mao in their respective countries.
    Another serious blow was the August 2008 five-day war with Russia over the Georgian separatist region of South Ossetia. Analysts say it was an example of Mr. Saakashvili's erratic tendency to act quickly, without considering the consequences.
    Experts such as Stephen Jones at Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts say Mr. Saakashvili's decision to attack South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, was a colossal mistake. "The Georgian army was clearly not prepared for a war like this. It led to a rapid decline in foreign direct investment in Georgia and a rapid decline in growth, reinforced, of course, by the economic crisis. To some extent, it was a humiliation for Saakashvili. ..
    As a result of Russia's victory, Moscow now has firm economic and political control over South Ossetia and over another Georgian separatist region, Abkhazia. In addition, Russia has recognized the independence of both regions.
    https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-2009-09-01-voa48-68756972/410452.html

    ..what Russia has been doing for the last ten years toward Tbilisi, Sukhumi and Tskhinvali is fully in keeping with the foreign policy logic that it conducts in the post-Soviet space and beyond it - it does not allow NATO and the EU to the new territories and restores its influence everywhere where local state institutions and civil society are so weak that they can not prevent it - this is the policy that it conducts very consistently and quite successfully; At the same time, as the cases with Georgia and Ukraine have clearly shown, it uses any method to achieve its goals, - from occupation to annexation. In its first part, or in "not letting" Georgia from its grasp, Russia is partially successful - the prospects of Georgia's integration into NATO ten years after the Bucharest summit are still vague; Membership in the EU seems also unrealistic so far. However, one thing is de jure, and the real situation is quite different - today both NATO and the EU are much more presented in Georgia than in 2008, and vice versa.
    This is a rather strange situation, when, in spite of the increasing presence of NATO and the EU, today, however, there’s more and more Russia in Georgia as well - economic relations, increasing number of tourists, cultural and humanitarian contacts - all these are growing tendencies; Here have appeared the new political parties, - some of them are presented in the parliament of Georgia, - whose perception of Russia is more positive than negative.
    https://ge.boell.org/en/2018/08/07/decade-august-war-pragmatic-ossetians-disillusioned-abkhazs-unpredictable-russians-and-us

    The Georgian leadership will continue to pay lip service to the country’s Euro-Atlantic orientation. In a country where three quarters of the population supports EU and NATO membership, they could hardly do otherwise. But in practice, the evidence available suggests that the country is now led by leaders who have no particular affinity for the West, and who are at the very least susceptible to Russian pressure. In terms of an active and effective policy of Euro-Atlantic integration, Georgia may just have been neutralized.
    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/11/13/is-georgia-slipping-away/
    There's no such thing as a "benevolent empire". That's why Georgia should follow the "if u can't beat them, join them!" principle. In the long run, joining NATO/EU won't help. The alliance can barely contain Turkey-Greece conflict & in a few years may be replaced by the EU or the "European Force". Most of Georgia isn't even in geographical Europe. The largest exercises in 30 years are held in the south of Russia
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:45 am

    In any case, does Georgia prosecute its citizens who been fighting for Ukraine?

    No. Because they are all in the Ukraine and Ukrainian citizens fighting for Ukraine can't be prosecuted by Georgia.

    Does Russia prosecute their murdering horde of mercenaries they send in every proxy war since 1991, slaugthering and beheading people ?
    or do we rather see them being celebrated as heros and given medals ? ( hint: that's a rhetorical question )

    U r biased

    That's rich, look who's talking.

    You are OK with supporting a country that committed several genocides, massacres, invasions and fighting seaparatism in their own country with ballistic missiles and full prejudice to uphold territorial integrity.

    But for some reason when Georgia tries to maintain its souvereignity and fight foreign instigated sessession, that's an outcry !

    Tragicomedy.

    Georgian people formed a unified Kingdom of Georgia in the early 11th century and inaugurated the Georgian Golden Age, a height of political and cultural power of the nation. This lasted until being weakened by Mongol invasions, as well as internal divisions following the death of George V the Brilliant, the last of the great kings of Georgia. Thereafter and throughout the early modern period, Georgians became politically fractured and were dominated by the Ottoman Empire and successive dynasties of Iran. To ensure the survival of his polity, in 1783, Heraclius II of the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti forged an alliance with the Russian Empire. The Russo-Georgian alliance, however, backfired as Russia was unwilling to fulfill the terms of the treaty, proceeding to annex the troubled kingdom in 1801, as well as the western Georgian kingdom of Imereti in 1810. Russian rule over Georgia was eventually acknowledged in various peace treaties with Iran and the Ottomans, and the remaining Georgian territories were absorbed by the Russian Empire in a piecemeal fashion in the course of the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Within_the_Russian_Empire
    ....
    ..what Russia has been doing for the last ten years toward Tbilisi, Sukhumi and Tskhinvali is fully in keeping with the foreign policy logic that it conducts in the post-Soviet space and beyond it - it does not allow NATO and the EU to the new territories and restores its influence everywhere where local state institutions and civil society are so weak that they can not prevent it - this is the policy that it conducts very consistently and quite successfully; At the same time, as the cases with Georgia and Ukraine have clearly shown, it uses any method to achieve its goals, - from occupation to annexation. In its first part, or in "not letting" Georgia from its grasp, Russia is partially successful - the prospects of Georgia's integration into NATO ten years after the Bucharest summit are still vague;

    Mate. You are literaly verifying what I said and making my point. Thank you I guess ?

    You seem to like wiki as source. Since you're educating yourself on the topic, instead of trying to find more poorly crafted excuses ( which none of the articles provide you btw, they just repeat what I've already said a 100 times in this thread - like why are you even quoting them ? ), read the history of "South Ossetia" very carefuly and stop distracting from the topic.

    Past injustices between Ossetians & Georgians r not justification for of what happened in 2008.

    Oh please, this is becoming sad .... that's such a stereotypical response.

    Again, history didn't start in 2008, no matter how you Russians and their stubborn supporters want to twist it. That's not how the world works. You cannot simply judge Georgia for something you've started and then we tried to prevent, yet at the same time bomb one of your own regions back to the stone age with half its population because of the exact same reasons. You condemn our actions, but not that ? where is the logic in all of that ? how are you not even questioning your own hypocricy and contradictions ?

    W/o the Russian Empire annexing Georgia, there probably wouldn't be Georgia now, or at least 1 within its present borders

    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventualy shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.
    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Stop searching non-existent justifications for crimes and warmongering and learn to treat your neighbours with at least some form of respect instead of just taking what doesn't belong to you and demanding without offering all the time.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Empty Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:22 pm

    But for some reason when Georgia tries to maintain its sovereignty and fight foreign instigated secession, that's an outcry!
    That is a convenient excuse many big countries invoke. W/o local grievances & grassroots support, secession can't proceed even with help from abroad.
    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventually shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.
    Maybe so, but w/o Russia stopping them, the Azeris & their brothers the Turks would do to u what they did to Greeks & Armenians in Asia Minor.
    There's 1 thing that only matters- it's called "the right of conquest".
    As the "3rd Rome" & inheritor of the Golden Horde, Moscow felt obligated to secure her perimeter, & for Russia, the Caucasus is a natural barrier in the South that the Mongols themselves crossed 12 years before their full scale invasion of Russian lands from the East. Georgia too shelled & killed civilians in Tskhinvali: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali#Artillery_preparation
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/12/russia/georgia-investigate-civilian-deaths
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2008/08/16/revisiting-the-quot-battle-of-tskhinvali-quot/print/

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:
    "I have been fighting against Russian army since the early 1990s," ..
    In 1996, he founded a Georgian voluntary group to fight the Russians in Chechnya and, in 1998, he went to South Ossetia and Abkhazia voluntarily, he said. ..A claim echoed by a fellow combatant with a black mask who said the reason why he was in Ukraine was "to protect Georgia’s honor and territory." "We did not come here for money. Our aim is to get back Abkhazia and South Ossetia," he said. ..While the government does not openly support them, it does nothing to prevent them from going to Ukraine to fight.
    https://www.worldbulletin.net/caucasus/georgians-defy-russia-in-ukraine-h156758.html
    https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-georgians/29422560.html
    https://dfwatch.net/georgian-volunteers-in-ukraine-war-quit-military-unit-after-provocations-49727

    Hopefully Georgia as a nation will too realize it has to act differently, times have changed, and it too must try to extricate itself from sending its own citizens to be murdered by their own comrades fighting in a conflict which doesn’t help Georgia in the least.
    https://journal-neo.org/2018/01/25/is-kiev-headhunting-for-georgian-and-american-mercenaries-in-ukraine/
    https://dfwatch.net/georgian-volunteer-soldiers-arrest-in-kiev-stirs-controversy-in-georgia-47403

    Georgia and Ukraine are strategic partners and have an agreement to cooperate in defense. But that agreement does not have a point allowing foreigners to take part in anti-terrorist operations in the territory of Ukraine. So, the Ukrainian authorities have suggested giving Ukrainian passports to those wishing to fight for Ukraine.
    Among those people are Georgian citizens who once refused to fight for Georgia and to be Georgian citizens any longer. There are no other grounds for their involvement in the anti-terrorist campaign in Ukraine,” ..
    A few days ago the Georgian National Legion, a force that has fought for the Kiev regime for two years already officially joined Ukraine’s anti-terrorist operation as part of the 25th Kievan Rus motorized infantry battalion. This is the first official foreign unit within the Ukrainian army.
    It is not known how many Georgians exactly are fighting for Ukraine for the time being. Many of them are former Georgian military men and have been involved in international peacekeeping missions. According to former Georgian president and incumbent Governor of Odessa Oblast Mikheil Saakashvili, over the last two years the Legion has lost six of its one hundred men.
    Chairman of the Georgian Parliament’s Defense and Security Committee Irakli Sesiashvili has told BBC that the Georgian special services are aware how many Georgians are involved in the conflict in Ukraine but are keeping this secret for the sake of their safety.
    Sesiashvili confirmed that some Georgians are fighting for the Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics. Most of those people are ethnic Georgians with Russian passports. https://eadaily.com/en/news/2016/03/17/georgian-outcasts-are-fighting-in-ukraine
    So, those Georgians r fighting each other in Donbass. Stalin, a Georgian, resurrected the Russian Empire under a different name, & never thought to give Georgia (much less Abkhazia) any independence. He & Beria, another Georgian, killed millions of Russians, Ukrainians, & others; they planned to exile 100s of thousands of Jews to the Far East- how many of them would have died on the way & there as a result, like the Tartars, Chechens, Germans, Koreans & others they exiled before? Both r justifiably blamed for genocide, as much as u can blame the old Russian Empire for its genocide in Georgia & today's Russia for truncating it, as a result of the new hybrid war waged against it by the West!
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:That is a convenient excuse many big countries invoke. W/o local grievances & grassroots support, secession can't proceed even with help from abroad.

    Except when they do.
    All it requires is a small and weak country that recently retained its independence and enjoys no foreign support whatsoever ( except some Ukrainian volunteers ) and a powerful paranoid nation like Russia to achieve success just splendidly for the aggressor.

    The conflict in Abkhazia would have remained a small local affair and a far cry of the tragic ordeal it sadly became, if Russia hadn't intervened and orchestrated a full fledged sessession. When their payroll puppet Ardzinba and his group started to attack the local administration in Sukhumi, Georgian police & militia needed less than a week to pacify the entire region and seal the border to Russia ( that was done by Shevardnadze in order to prevent combatant influx because he knew Russian political mentality inside out and feared the worst ). The majority population was Georgian and that separatist movement was no greater than a couple hundred men who were armed by the local Russian garrison ( Russian side claims their bases got looted. Sure  Wink ). It could have ended right there in their surrender and trial. But instead Ardzinba and his gang were sheltered by the Russian army at Gudauta where they were protected instead of being handed over to the Georgian authorities. Obv the Georgian side couldn't physicaly do anything about that. From there on, Gudauta essentialy became the separatists supply and operational base, as well as training center, where the rebels would be trained by Russian instructors.
    Georgia agreed to negotiate. Russia used those negotiations to secretly arm and train the separatist and boost them with mercenaries from Chechnya and other North Caucasian peoples. Kremlin demanded Georgia to pull out its troops from its own region and Georgia complied, as if they had any say in other country's affairs. But if we didn't comply our cities would have been bombed as a consequence.
    So Shevardnadze had no choice, he pulled out a good portion leaving only hundreds to secure the region. That act was followed by Russia condemning Georgia and virtualy the same time, a yet large force of several thousand Abkhaz, North Caucasians and Russians including Cossacks and what not, appeared out of nowhere ( similar to what happened to Ukraine in 2014 ) from the border and started attacking the vastly outnumbered Georgian troops. With them, they carried heavy military hardware that was physicaly impossible for them to even possess if they were not directly armed by Russia. Tanks, Grad launchers and other military vehicles.
    To top that all, Russia vehemently denied any assistance eventhough they carried out air missions to support the rebel offensives. One of their fighter aircraft, a Su-27 was later shot down by Georgian AA over Abkhazia. https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html / http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-20/news/mn-13172_1_russian-air
    There are also better and colored versions of the images of its wreck somewhere on the net. But to return to the Abkhaz offensive. What actualy made it blatantly obvious that Russia not just directly supported, but planned and organised the entire operation, was the landing of unmarked troops via their big transport barges like Aligator and Ropucha class to distort and overrun Georgian lines at Ochamchire along the Abkhazian coastline. Essentialy with the intent of opening a second front in the rear. I say intent, because initialy it surprised the Georgians but eventualy failed and only distracted. Nevertheless. Russia consistently warned Georgia to not send further troops and the region fell. What followed after was documented the most brutal period of massacres and mass exodus of the 1990s. Almost the entire Georgian population was expelled. The thousands who remained were murdered in the most distasteful of barbaric fashions. The Russians did absolutly nothing to either intervene or at least limit the damage and atrocities committed by their puppets.

    Neither did they in 2008 before the GAF moved in, when Kokhoitis boys purposefully destroyed Georgian appartments in Tskhinvali forcing some 10k pp to become IDPs, and after the GAF moved out when going on a looting and killing spree against the remaining Georgian populace in "South Ossetia".

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    Georgia survived much worse in its history. We would have eventually shaken off the Persians like we did many times before.

    Maybe so, but w/o Russia stopping them, the Azeris & their brothers the Turks would do to u what they did to Greeks & Armenians in Asia Minor.
    There's 1 thing that only matters- it's called "the right of conquest".

    Like I said many times before. That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neirhbours borders.

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up ....

    That is the most invalid argument I've ever heard in my entire life.

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.

    Hopefully Georgia as a nation will too realize it has to act differently, times have changed, and it too must try to extricate itself from [u]sending its own citizens to be murdered by their own comrades fighting in a conflict which doesn’t help Georgia in the least

    We don't send ppl to other conflicts. We send them to countries who ask for our assistance in peacebuilding process and protection. We didn't force outselves onto Africans and Afghanis. They request it, we are welcome and we help. We train their troops. We protect the Coalition bases. I see absolutly no issue in that, at all. We don't participate in wars.

    Don't act as if a bunch of people who got verbaly and publicaly crucified by their own government for taking part in the Donbass war, make the rule.

    Georgia and Ukraine are strategic partners and have an agreement to cooperate in defense. But that agreement does not have a point allowing foreigners to take part in anti-terrorist operations in the territory of Ukraine.

    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    If Ukraine asks for it and Georgia agrees, it can also send more instructors to support them. After all, Ukraine is fighting an internal conflict and not a war with Russia, ammarite ?  Wink

    A few days ago the Georgian National Legion, a force that has fought for the Kiev regime for two years already officially joined Ukraine’s anti-terrorist operation as part of the 25th Kievan Rus motorized infantry battalion. This is the first official foreign unit within the Ukrainian army.

    .... and ?

    Georgians are not the only foreigners and I still don't get what point you are trying to make. Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors.

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    Not to mention, troops that occasionaly accidently cross the border and also tens of thousands of troops directly at the border giving permanent supply of arms and ammunition and happy volunteers.
    GarryB
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    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Empty Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:41 am

    My point is that Russia tries to envoke claims on territories and peoples that don't belong to them and far predate Russia as a unified empire and / state.

    Not sure what you mean... it is not claiming SO and ABk or Georgia as its territory.

    It is just stepping in to stop Georgia bully SO and ABk.

    Well it's very evident that they don't, but they should because we and the others they deal with, do care. Its our culture, our history, our lands.

    You care about your culture and your history and your lands, but not much for the people you bombarded to seize those lands in 2008...

    They are the people you have to make friends with... not the Russians.

    To me its just a sad waste of good resource in another dirty Russian instigated proxy war.

    See now that is a problem... Russian instigated proxy war in the Ukraine...

    The US proudly announces it has spent 5 billion dollars to over throw the legitimate government of your buddies, the Ukrainians, and when they ban Russian language some areas in their East who largely speak Russian oppose the illegal government... has the US spent 5 billion dollars on Georgia?

    The US created the conflict in the Ukraine. The fact that you blame Russia for it makes your claims of history seem shaky... it seems everything is Russias fault...

    Don't fault other peoples and nations for opposing Russia to defend their own lifes and lands!

    Oppose Russia all you want.... but I am pretty sure the US can't give you the lands you crave back...

    You talk as if Russia was the only country on this planet. Wonder if you'd be equaly supporting if you found yourselves in our situation.

    In your situation and location... it is the only country that matters.

    Just like in Kosovo it was the US that mattered and Russia could do little to nothing.

    If anything, the right thing to do: is for Russia to apologize for all the conflicts it instigated, second the Abkhazians for what they've done especialy with all the massacres and mass exodus of the Georgian majority in the region. Actualy if they had any decency, they would first. But they won't anyway seing how thes celebrate their mass murderers as heros.

    Hahahaha.... WTF does right or wrong have to do with anything?

    Do you think it is right that Syrians are fighting and dying to defend themselves from ISIS while the last superpower on the planet does all it can to overthrow their government and create chaos there like they did in Libya a few years ago?

    They don't need to apologise because the current situation they can tolerate...

    For Georgia however, the situation is not so satisfying, but I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia.... I see the US media has published stories of Georgian units stealing from US units... now I have heard of cases where non US NATO forces have massacred civilians and the US hushed it up because they didn't want to embarrass their allies... so what do you make of them letting information about Georgian forces allegedly stealing getting out.

    I say allegedly because NZ forces are well known magpies... if you don't want it they will take it... not really stealing... and they are very nice about the countries that donate stuff...

    Georgia tries desperatly to acquire measures of self defence, with little to no results so far but some minor acquirements that have insigificant meaning. NATO will NEVER allow Georgia to be part of them. That is virtualy manifested.

    Even if they did what difference would it make... do you think if you started another conflict with Russia that the rest of NATO would back you up all the way to Moscow... or even just to the borders of the Russian Federation?

    You are fooling yourself.

    But yes, that's now how it works, since Russia is the more powerful nation. So yeah, utlimately Georgia will lead with example, once again, followed by Russia if they have any sense of decency, honor and anything humane left. Guess, that will never happen.

    Again... you talk about doing the right thing... how old are you... really...

    Countries... big and small don't do things because it is the right thing to do, and something that is wrong they will do even when they know it is wrong.

    What you propose is so laughable, not even Kremlin's PR machine believes in it.

    You seem to think the Russians are the enemy and that somehow you can scare them into running away... but you are their border... they are not going anywhere... and by hitching up your wagon to NATO and the US you are making damn sure they wont let you get friendly with SO and ABk because that would mean NATO and the US building bases even closer to their territory...

    Why is it that you supposedly "non-Russians" living abroad, are always more toxic than full blooded Russians, whom you can at least reason with and trust to have the very least basic educational and historical knowledge ?

    Tell me about New Zealand and Australian history... and don't get anything wrong or leave anything out.

    I am sure your response will be WTF do I need to know the history of those countries on the other side of the planet for...

    I would ask you why New Zealand history teachers would bother with the intricate history of the Caucasus.

    I don't have a passport and have never been outside of New Zealand.

    The only Russians I know I have spoken to on the internet.

    I have no Russian or Eastern European relatives.

    You don't prove yourself by such levels of ignorance and denial of reality.

    Deal with the reality that I am a white New Zealander with no blood ties to Russia, my parents are 3th generation New Zealanders and my great great grandparents are English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish.

    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Sounds like you are describing the US... which still has military forces in Germany and Japan and South Korea... and many other countries on the planet... including Cuba... do they leave when asked?

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:

    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    You have already said the people living in SO and ABk don't belong there.... if Russia hadn't interfered they probably would not be there now... given the choice of interfering or not interfering I think they made the right choice.

    Like I said many times before. That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neirhbours borders.

    Oh please.... 08 08 2008 was in the 21st century and the medieval mentality of Saakashvili used Grads to try to wipe minds... there was no respect at all in either direction I might add.

    That is the most invalid argument I've ever heard in my entire life.

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.

    Except that one thug you want desperately to join and the other is evil beyond compare... do you decide with the flip of a coin, or is it more random than that?


    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?

    There is no Ukrainian government... they were not elected... half of them aren't even Ukrainian... they seized power with the support of the US and the EU... and their only job is to hate Russia... they are good at that but there is not much money in that... not enough to make a good living anyway...

    If Ukraine asks for it and Georgia agrees, it can also send more instructors to support them. After all, Ukraine is fighting an internal conflict and not a war with Russia, ammarite ?

    Yup, Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... give them all the training they need by all means... your logic weakens both of your countries.

    Georgians are not the only foreigners and I still don't get what point you are trying to make. Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors.

    But all the bad guys are Russian Army soldiers sent to the Ukraine to destabilise the country and make it an economic shitpile.

    The fact is that they don't need Russian forces for that... they are doing a really good job of that on their own.

    It is the ethically Russian people that the Orcs are shelling that are suffering because they don't recognise the illegal occupation force in Kiev... and why would they.... they didn't vote them in... they had no democratic say... and one of the first things the illegal regime did was make speaking Russian illegal and ban schools from teaching Russian.

    But the only thing keeping that conflict going is all the Russians that crossed the border and presumably are fighting the Ukrainian local patriots and Kievs forces....

    Yeah yeah...

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    How could that possibly be true when thousands of the Wagner group were killed in US airstrikes...

    So Georgians are instructors and Russians are mercenaries.... hahaha... why not freedom fighters and terrorists... have you not properly read the US manual?

    Not to mention, troops that occasionaly accidently cross the border and also tens of thousands of troops directly at the border giving permanent supply of arms and ammunition and happy volunteers.

    Funny that the Ukrainians in the east of the Ukraine are supposed to be fully supplied by Putin himself yet they modify 23mm cannon shell rounds with blank cartridges and muzzle launch tubes for assault rifles instead of just using 40mm under barrel grenade launchers like the Russians have been doing for 30 years...

    You are continuing to discuss this so I will try one more time...

    The best solution for Georgia is to cut ties with NATO and the US... it is probably too late now of course so you could expect a coup and a new pro NATO/US government overnight if you tried, but your only chance to get what you want is to talk to SO and ABk and Russia.

    Remove NATO and the US from the equation and Russia will relax... as long as NATO and the US are in the picture you have Russias attention and it wont be in a friendly giving mood... it will be bat shit crazy What are they doing what are they doing mode... which really doesn't help anyone.

    With NATO and the US out of the picture, just be honest... say that the attack on 8 8 8 was a mistake and apologise that Saakashvili was stupid enough to try it, that you are neighbours and no one is able to move or go anywhere, so you might as well get along.

    They might appreciate honesty and a genuine wish to reconcile... or they might just say fuck off... you murdered our people we are not interested in being friends.

    To which you can reply that that was the idiot Saakashvili and he was under the influence of America, who does not care about people and just wanted to upset Russia and to build military bases around Russia, but we have gotten rid of them and want better relations with you and Russia...

    Again... it might not work but it wont totally backfire like sucking up to NATO and the US... but do what you like... I am sure America can solve all your problems... ask Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or Afghanistan... better yet ask those countries who they want to talk to and it wont be the US or EU... it is more likely big old evil Russia.



    Tsavo Lion
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    Georgia NATO/US Relations - Page 4 Empty Re: Georgia NATO/US Relations

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:03 am

    Just because one thug breaks and violates someone doesn't give the other thug the right to do the exact same thing to yet another victim.
    I agree, but states, esp. superpowers, don't follow this principle; there's no morality in international relations. They do follow these: "war is politics by other means", "we don't have permanent alies nor perpetual enemies; our interest r permanent", & "an enemy of my enemy is my friend".
    That medieval mentality has to be wiped off the Russians minds. Transfer it to the 21st century. Respect your neighbors borders.
    Oppression, slavery, ethnic violence, wars & genocide r still ongoing, & that's a fact! Borders r temporary; the only permanent thing is change.
    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.
    Russia only took from Ukraine what once belonged to her & helped to downsize Georgia to suit her geostrategic aims in the Black Sea region & the Caucasus.
    From the link u posted:
    The 90,000 Abkhazians, a minority in the province whose population exceeds 400,000, speak a different language from the Georgians and resist assimilation. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-20/news/mn-13172_1_russian-air
    If Georgians were so nice all those years inside their republic, there would be no reason to want seceding from Georgia.
    We don't send ppl to other conflicts.
    Georgia had them in illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_Iraq_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Georgia_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%9314)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
    http://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=130470
    https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/18/opinion/iraq-war-hans-blix/index.html
    “Clearly, there’s a sense of disappointment in general that we’ve performed and contributed more than some NATO members,” Georgian Defense Minister Irakli Alasania said in a recent interview. “We don’t have any security guarantees, no security blankets. The only force we can count on is ourselves.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgias-mettle-as-us-coaltion-partner-has-honed-its-army-bolstered-nato-hopes/2014/08/13/431f192a-1bea-11e4-ab7b-696c295ddfd1_story.html?utm_term=.57c9997fe695
    How did Georgia benefited from its involvement there & being used by the US against Russia?
    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors. Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.
    The current government in Ukraine was installed by the US after a coup; everything it does is illegal. Like Georgia in Abkhazia, they suppressed the local language in Donbass, rejected federalization, & oppressed those who don't agree with their nationalist agenda. Even if they r not representing Georgian gov., they r not stopped or prosecuted for going there, & their Ukrainian passports have as much weight as the 1 Mr. Saakashvili once had. So, from the RF perspective, Georgia is complicit in a war against ethnic Russian population now being waged in Ukraine. Yes, 2 wrongs doesn't make it right. But in this case, millions of people in Ukraine & Donbass have relatives in Russia & vice versa. Genetically,  they r 1 people. Don't expect Russia to stand idly by while Russians in near abroad r slaughtered for being Russians. That's why this hybrid war isn't 1 sided. They also want to avoid fratricidal war & can't afford a full scale invasion of Ukraine &/ Georgia; destabilizing these hostile Western leaning regimes until they r replaced by more friendly 1s will accomplish their aims.


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:52 am

    That is the problem right there... the US and the west want to make out the problems in the Ukraine are Ukraine vs Russia, but nothing could be further from the truth...

    The legitimate elected government of the Ukraine that the US paid to overthrow was not pro Russia... not even nearly.

    His only mistake was not taking the inferior offer of the EU, over a much better offer from Russia and China... the EU was offering 7 billion in loans, while the Russians and Chinese were offering 15 billion in investments... obviously he is not an idiot and took the better offer... for which the Ukraine has paid in blood.

    But it is still Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... if Russia did get involved the separatists would be in Kiev by now.

    As far as Russia is concerned neither side is genuinely pro Russia by choice... an actual Russian invasion force would not likely be welcomed and many would use it to try to unify the Ukrainians against Russia... certainly the US and EU would love to see a conflict on a Russian border again... do you think they told Saakashvili not to attack SO.... you can bet your ass they told him the best time was during the opening ceremony of the Olympics and in return they will delay any meeting of the UNSC so you will have 4-5 days to take SO and make it a fait a comply and then all you need to worry about is ABk... great advice by the way... backfired the same way their little rebellion in the Ukraine was going to help them kick the Russians out of Sevastopol and they could put NATO ships in there instead and rule the Black Sea...

    They don't seem to be half as clever as they think they are...

    Even in the Middle East their stated goals are to limit the influence of Iran... so they remove Saddam from power and the Shia majority take power in legitimate democratic elections because they are the majority. They try to over throw pro Iran Assad and the result in both cases is that Iran extends its influence in ways it never could on its own... it now has a friendly Iraq and a Syria who both need their help in the fight against ISIS...

    Yup, those mericans are clever....

    Their achievements in the last decade is to turn Libya into shit, expand Irans influence into Iraq and Syria, hand Russia the entire peninsula of Crimea... something they would never have even had a chance for in 1,000 years in any other way...

    And the cost to Russia has been sanctions... now in the 1990s when Russia was weak those sanctions would have crushed them, but today they actually make Russia more self dependent... it has built up its own agriculture sector with its response of banning food imports from the EU... and it is pushing other countries together... China would not have been interested in helping Russia in the 1990s, and the EU wouldn't either but what is happening now is that the Russians and EU and China are working together to trade with Iran... they are working together for a solution to Syria because the EU doesn't want more refugees and pretty soon the same logic will likely bring the EU and Russians and possibly the Chinese together to do something about Libya... I doubt the EU would talk to the US about it... even though the EU was as much to blame if not more so than the US, but the US has not been effected by the economic migrants coming through Libya to Europe...
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:30 pm

    To sum it up: all what the so called liberals in the west do in "Ukraine" and "Georgia" is defend Lenin and Stalin. Before Stalin Abkhazia and South-Ossetia were never part of "Georgia".
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:40 pm

    It is just stepping in to stop Georgia bully SO and ABk.

    Russia is the bully not Georgia. It created borth conflicts and it also consistently performs old fashioned land grabs.

    You care about your culture and your history and your lands, but not much for the people you bombarded to seize those lands in 2008...

    Those our our lands and we responsed to attacks and provocations, not because we felt it was a nice day to kill. Saakashvilis response was a major disaster.

    If I was in charge, I would have simply vaporised the separatist units that attacked as a response and leave it at that. But I am not in charge.

    See now that is a problem... Russian instigated proxy war in the Ukraine...

    Yeah. It is. Glad you see that.

    Oppose Russia all you want.... but I am pretty sure the US can't give you the lands you crave back...

    The language of an aggressor. Classy.

    In your situation and location... it is the only country that matters.

    Thank you for verifying everything I said GarryB.

    Hahahaha.... WTF does right or wrong have to do with anything?

    Everything.

    Do you think it is right that Syrians are fighting and dying to defend themselves from ISIS while the last superpower on the planet does all it can to overthrow their government and create chaos there like they did in Libya a few years ago?

    Better question. How does that justify the bahaviour of the former superpower ?


    For Georgia however, the situation is not so satisfying, but I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia....

    I see the US media has published stories of Georgian units stealing from US units...

    Sure, throw in the old stereotypes. Class act. The US generaly look down at their allies. Georgians are no exception whatsoever and those are stories from the early 2000s. Things have improved since then. Shitty act in the Georgian army is not less treated with disciplinary action than in Europe. At least we are not looting marauding warbands like the Russians were in 2008.

    Even if they did what difference would it make... do you think if you started another conflict with Russia that the rest of NATO would back you up all the way to Moscow... or even just to the borders of the Russian Federation?

    It makes Russia think twice of attacking again because of NATO presence. That is currently enough.

    Again... you talk about doing the right thing... how old are you... really...

    I'm not the one babbling and repeating Russian PR nonsense, not even RT publishes anymore, yet tries to talk phylosophy of geostrategic justification.

    Keep rediculing yourself.

    You seem to think the Russians are the enemy and that somehow you can scare them into running away...

    Right .... how exactly do you figure ?

    .... because that would mean NATO and the US building bases even closer to their territory...

    Except it didn't in 2001. The reason why Shevardnadze ultimately green lit US presence is because Moscow kept pressuring us on the pretext of harboring Chechen fighters, so they'd have an excuse to cross the border with troops and consistently violate our airspace. No means fucking no. You can't simply bully everyone into submission because they don't allow you to operate on your soil.

    I would ask you why New Zealand history teachers would bother with the intricate history of the Caucasus.


    ....I am a white....

    Laughing

    Okay, 'white Zealander'

    Russia literaly backstabbed an ally because it saw an opportunity. Stop justifying it. A proper ally would have supported and then left, not annex. You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over. When will it stop ? why does everyone have to fear losing an entire arm when offering Russia a fingernail ? Just .... stop.

    Sounds like you are describing the US... which still has military forces in Germany and Japan and South Korea... and many other countries on the planet... including Cuba... do they leave when asked?

    If NATO can break up Yugoslavia, then Russia can break up Ukraine & Georgia that help each other & Chechens; most of the Georgians helping Ukraine r citizens of Georgia:

    Russia didn't break up either the Ukraine or Georgia... the Ukraine and Georgia did that to themselves.

    Sorry to break it to you, but reality disagrees.

    Russia instigated those conflicts, broke those countries up with fully supporting the sessessions politicaly, with arms, mercenaries and troops, and don't fool yourself, planned, organised and executed everything from toe to wig.

    Now, give me one good reason, why you people who argue that matter are being willingly no lesser hypocrites than those big countries with their overreaching agendas ?

    You have already said the people living in SO and ABk don't belong there....

    This right there is a prime example of how entities like GarryB twist words and meanings to propagate their poorly crafted individual PR agendas. I've seen that in a scary scale on media throug recent years. People like you can't be reasoned with.

    Stating a basic historical / geographic fact that the Ossetians (Alans) are not indeginous to Georgia ..... and suggesting that I implied they belong eradicated, are not one and the same thing, and frankly its highly offensive.

    Medieval mentality of Saakashvili used Grads to try to wipe minds...

    Both sides used MRLS, Russians even deployed Smerchs and ballistic missiles.

    How culturaly advanced was the shelling of Grozny ?  Wink

    there was no respect at all in either direction I might add.

    At least you admit to that fact. Indeed, where was the respect to the Georgian minority living in Tskhinvali when they got their appartments destroyed and turned IDPs before the GAF even began their operation ?

    Except that one thug you want desperately to join and the other is evil beyond compare... do you decide with the flip of a coin, or is it more random than that?

    I'm sure you mispoke there, but thanks for admitting it ^^

    Frankly I see them as equals.

    There is no Ukrainian government...

    they were not elected... half of them aren't even Ukrainian... they seized power with the support of the US and the EU... and their only job is to hate Russia..

    Oh please ....  Rolling Eyes  

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014

    Yup, Ukrainians killing Ukrainians... give them all the training they need by all means... your logic weakens both of your countries.

    Yeah sure, those Russian mercs are all Ukrainians in disguise. It's all just a huge misunderstanding.

    Point remains. Its their country. I don't see anything immoral in providing training to an allied country fighting terrorists and foreign intruders. That's what allies are for. I don't think Russia wouldn't understan ..... oh wait ..... right, we've seen their definition of being allies  Wink

    But all the bad guys are Russian Army soldiers

    Yet again, putting words in my mouth. Never said they were. But a good massive AF chunk of them is.

    sent to the Ukraine to destabilise the country and make it an economic shitpile.

    wow, pretty much hit the head on the nail there. GG.

    The fact is that they don't need Russian forces for that... they are doing a really good job of that on their own.

    But it doesn't hurt to take away Crimea to secure the potential riches around it, and cause a good for NATO to never welcome Ukraine as no country with territorial conflicts are allowed to enter, swatting two flies in one go.

    because they don't recognise the illegal occupation force in Kiev...

    those fairy tales getting old.

    Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    How could that possibly be true when thousands of the Wagner group were killed in US airstrikes...

    Said noone ever. Even the US didn't claim more than a 100 killed, and that number got dramaticaly reduced to a "possibly" a few dozen when Russian state media declared only 15 or so Russians actualy died. So please, at least stop lying so flat out.

    So Georgians are instructors and Russians are mercenaries.... hahaha... why not freedom fighters and terrorists... have you not properly read the US manual?

    Uhm yes. Because Georgian military advisors and instructors are not the ones fighting in Donbass. It are the ex-miliaties and police who volunteered either from Georgia or who already lived in Ukraine. Those people got their Georgian passports revoked and are all, obv except the instructors, Ukrainian citizens.

    Funny that the Ukrainians in the east of the Ukraine are supposed to be fully supplied by Putin himself yet they modify 23mm cannon shell rounds with blank cartridges and muzzle launch tubes for assault rifles instead of just using 40mm under barrel grenade launchers like the Russians have been doing for 30 years...

    Oh please. Russia doesn't just provide anything they require including self propelled artillery, MRLS, tanks, manpads and what not, among them, captured Georgian equipment, but by all intents and purposes either the Russian army has directly vaporized UA army positions by surgical artillery and guided missile and ballistic strikes during their massive counterattack in 2014, or the separatists happen to have magic unicorns that shat weapons and satellites out their asses.

    >Pick one.

    Remove NATO and the US from the equation and Russia will relax...

    You make it all sound easy, as if none of Georgia's decisions result from any intigated sessessions and 2nd party aggression or something ....

    With NATO and the US out of the picture

    Wouldn't of been in the first place if they didn't screw us up, being the paranoid warmongers the Kremlin ppl are ? my condolences to Ukraine.

    They might appreciate honesty and a genuine wish to reconcile... or they might just say fuck off... you murdered our people we are not interested in being friends.

    Ok look, the world doesn't work like that. Yes we can lead by example, but it is in no way perceivable a way road here. Neither historicaly, nor symbolicaly. Those territories are rightfully ours and especialy the Abkhazians should be very careful with blaming others of "murdering people". They went full genocide on the population in Abkhazia. There is a chance to reconcile but we are not the only ones who need to apologize. That is just wrong.

    To which you can reply that that was the idiot Saakashvili and he was under the influence of America, who does not care about people and just wanted to upset Russia and to build military bases around Russia, but we have gotten rid of them and want better relations with you and Russia...

    Sorry, done that, tried to normalise, even achieved communication and compromise between us and Ossetians, Russians create conflict border and build fences in response.  

    No sign of interest to be friendly with us from the Russian side whatsoever. Only further signals of complete no F's given.

    Yeah I'm sure we gonna absolutly benefit from that.
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:15 am

    I agree, but states, esp. superpowers, don't follow this principle; there's no morality in international relations. They do follow these: "war is politics by other means", "we don't have permanent alies nor perpetual enemies; our interest r permanent", & "an enemy of my enemy is my friend".

    I know. Doesn't make any of it right though, now does it ?

    Oppression, slavery, ethnic violence, wars & genocide r still ongoing, & that's a fact! Borders r temporary; the only permanent thing is change.

    Why do some people here keep saying this, as if it would excuse anyone's attrocities ? how about leading as an example ? we are not asking Russia to reinvent the wheel or awe the entire globe with a miracle. Though I guess even what we ask is no short of a miracle .... Sigh.

    .... helped to downsize Georgia to suit her geostrategic aims in the Black Sea region & the Caucasus.


    What a nice thing to do.

    Actualy, hsitoricaly Russia holds no more claim over Crimea than all the other peoples that inhabitated the peninsula centuries before Russia did.

    If Georgians were so nice all those years inside their republic, there would be no reason to want seceding from Georgia.

    Oh please. Cut that bs, it's 2018 .... Literaly nothing about Ardzinba's Russian funded revolt was an Abkhazian uprising. It became one ( or so try to make you believe by arming a couple thousand and sending a couple thousand more mercenaries from Russia ) when Russia directly interfered seeing how their separatist movement bore no fruit as Georgia quickly dealt with it < - after, mind you, they committed armed assaults on the local regional government. I won't repeat myself, posted already thrice an entire segment on that bloody conflict.

    We don't send ppl to other conflicts.

    Georgia had them in illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan.

    False. Georgia didn't participate in the Iraq invasion. It participated in the consequent peacekeeping missions.

    Neither did Georgia participate in the Afganistan invasion. It participated in the consequent peacekeeping missions.

    What are you gonna pull out next ? Georgai's peacekeeping participating in Kosovo and the small border conflict in Macedonia ?  Rolling Eyes  

    “Clearly, there’s a sense of disappointment in general that we’ve performed and contributed more than some NATO members,” Georgian Defense Minister Irakli Alasania said in a recent interview. “We don’t have any security guarantees, no security blankets. The only force we can count on is ourselves.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgias-mettle-as-us-coaltion-partner-has-honed-its-army-bolstered-nato-hopes/2014/08/13/431f192a-1bea-11e4-ab7b-696c295ddfd1_story.html?utm_term=.57c9997fe695

    A statement I fully agree with.

    How did Georgia benefited from its involvement there & being used by the US against Russia?

    besides experience, recognition, new partnerships, significant increase in political weight and military support, not that much. We would have had even less without though.

    Sorry, but who exactly are you to tell any of those people what they are allowed or not to do, when it is absolutly sanctioned by the Ukrainian government ? are you the Ukrainian government ? no. So what exactly are you on about ?
    Volunteers do not represent the Georgian government, its military / security forces and people. Most of them are actualy Ukrainian citizens, except maybe a few instructors. Finaly, don't complain about such things, when Russia has thousands of mercenaries in Donbass, among them their famous Wagner Group that freshly arrived from Syria.

    The current government in Ukraine was installed by the US after a coup

    Nup. It was rightfully elected and the fact it was a democratic election with "just" 54% voting for Poroshenko is something of a democratic miracle in Eastern Europe opposed to consistent 70-90% for Putin who evidently wants to assume the throne for seemingly until he dies of old age ....

    So please ....  Rolling Eyes

    ...oppressed those who don't agree with their nationalist agenda.

    That's rich. Look who's talking.

    Exterminates half a region when it wants to become independent. Shats on minorities especialy Caucasians.

    Even if they r not representing Georgian gov., they r not stopped or prosecuted for going there, & their Ukrainian passports have as much weight as the 1 Mr. Saakashvili once had.

    How exactly are you gonna prosecute people who are not in your country and won't be extradited ? besides that, you have absolutly no point whatsoever. Those people have Ukrainian citizenship. Disagreeing with that fact to re-arrange events as you like doesn't magicaly make it so.

    So, from the RF perspective, Georgia is complicit in a war against ethnic Russian population now being waged in Ukraine.

    That's the most far fetched, out of context and pulled out of the ass claim I've ever withnessed in my entire life. A little bit of basic law study and how to craft contextual arguments wouldn't hurt you.

    Yes, 2 wrongs doesn't make it right. But in this case.

    Gotta stop you right there. There is no "but".
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:46 am

    Hole wrote:Before Stalin Abkhazia and South-Ossetia were never part of "Georgia".

    lol1  lol1  lol1  lol1

    Ah, classic Russian alternate history. Never gets old.

    If that's the case, than Russia did not exist before Stalin in the first place. I can play the "going full retard" game as well. ^^

    I tell you another historical fact you won't like. Sochi was part of Colchis and later the unified Georgia as a kingdom and later principalities for more than a millenia and half. The Abkhaz requested government aid and we retook Sochi during the Russian civil war, but later had to accept its total loss to the Whites, then Bolsheviks mostly due to British meddling as they literaly forced us under threat to accept peace conditions that were unfavourable to us, so the war would end. If Russia claims Crimea, than it should return Sochi to Georgia. Wink

    But sure, whatever fairly tail or denial floats your boat and makes you sleep at night. I would however be concerned about what impression you leave on the rest of the world with that act.

    Same with enjoying the benefits of living in Central/Western Europe and Canada but at the same time making fun of them  Wink


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:55 am; edited 3 times in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 am

    In 2000, Russia also wanted to join NATO, but was told NO. Why? Because in their mind, "Russia shouldn't exist". The USSR & its Warsaw Pact was a huge military camp; it lost the Cold War & today's proxy wars (& US sanctions) in the Caucasus & Ukraine r designed to weaken Russia so it could be split up into smaller peaces to be exploited, plundered for spoils & profits. Putin & his advisers saw through it & managed to stop it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbass
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/opinion/ukraine-russia.html

    Most of the past invasions came from the West- don't blame them for being paranoid; they look at capabilities of potential adversaries & act accordingly.
    How Ukraine proved that there are no Russian troops in the Donbass
    Belarus, whose citizens been also fighting on both sides in Donbass, recently tightened controls on its "1,084km long and only 150km from Kyiv at one point" border with Ukraine:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/belarus-fight-both-sides-ukraine-russia-conflict
    http://belsat.eu/en/news/lukashenka-orders-to-bar-bandits-from-crossing-ukraine-belarus-border/
    https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims
    Ukraine has a problem in its West too: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2494065.html
    They always blame others around them but not themselves.
    Hosting a foreign military base is tantamount to placing your country on the adversary’s list of primary targets. https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims
    That's exactly why Russia has warned against NATO expansion; wherever it goes, new & expanded bases spring up like mushrooms after a rain. Sweden & Finland so far avoided joining NATO- they learned from history & know better!
    ..I am sure joining NATO and the EU and sending soldiers to fight wars for the US will be the right solution for Georgia....
    NATO bombed the Serbs but also killed many of those fleeing the bombing &/ Serbs. Keep trusting them & they'll bomb u too. Russia, as in the past, is the Serbs protector: http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-10-03/100_181003serbia.html?print=Y
    If Kosovo can secede, so can S. Ossetia & Donbass.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:12 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In 2000, Russia also wanted to join NATO, but was told NO. Why? Because in their mind, "Russia shouldn't exist".

    You do realise that was just a running PR act and Russia would never join NATO right ....  Rolling Eyes btw the US president back then actualy agreed.

    Most of the past invasions came from the West- don't blame them for being paranoid; they look at capabilities of potential adversaries & act accordingly.

    Georgia could have been a vital ally to Russia. NATO / West was no concern whatsoever in 1991. The concern was a strong independent Georgia, followed suit by the rest of the South Caucasus. Russia repeatedly and officialy stated that a strong indepentend and unified Caucasus equals a decleration of war against Russia. They don't see themselves threatened by just NATO / West, but everything that can even so slightly undermine or endanger their overreaching influence on their neighbourhood, no matter if they join NATO / EU or not. It does absolutly not matter. Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation, that is only kept in check by another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbours but literaly everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. They simply can't and are not willing to offer as much or more than the US. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves. Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.

    Why not just say "Fuck the US", we will go the more reasonable path without sacrificing our own souvereignity and paralising other countries around us. Let's offer them neighbours better conditions and actualy be serious about the prospect of allying with us this time around. At least for the next 200 or the very least 50 stable years.


    Hosting a foreign military base is tantamount to placing your country on the adversary’s list of primary targets. https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_belarus_and_ukraine_fort_trump_accidental_victims

    It's as demonstrated in the last 20 years nowhere near as hazerdous and revolting as having to suffer under the presence of Russian military bases since Georgia's independence. Cultivating, sheltering, arming and preparing subversive groups and insurgents to attack and split our country.

    Keep trusting them & they'll bomb u too.

    We are entering silly territory again.

    If Kosovo can secede, so can S. Osseia & Donbass.

    Sure, and Nazis have inhabitated the dark side of the moon. Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:17 am

    ..that was just a running PR act and Russia would never join NATO right ....  btw the US president back then actualy agreed.
    No, being naive after the Communist ideology failed, they really wanted to join the West as part of European civilization. The Western Europeans consider them not worthy of their company & didn't want to make any accommodations with Russia. Also, since 988, they r too big & belong to a different branch of Christianity, not under the Pope or Protestantism. https://x-true.info/74404-borba-protiv-russkogo-mira-unichtozhit-ukrainu.html

    Medieval religious war is starting in Ukraine: "We will never agree to change the sacred canonical borders of our Church, for Kiev is the spiritual cradle of holy Russia, like Mtskheta for Georgia or Kosovo for Serbia," Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said in 2016. https://x-true.info/74326-rekomenduju-ukraincam-nachat-srochnuju-jevakuaciju.html
    Why Putin does not interfere with the West burial of Ukraine
    Russia repeatedly and officially stated that a strong independent and unified Caucasus equals a declaration of war against Russia.
    Pl. use spell check before posting, & provide references to the above quote.
    The so-called unified Caucasus is a pipe dream; so many religions & over 130 nationalities can't be unified, much less strong enough to be a threat to Russia. But aligning with Russia's historical adversaries, NATO member Turkey among them, may doom Georgia to be a target & permanent backwater.
    Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation,
    No, they sold Alaska to the US, lost control of the 14 Soviet republics, & still have enough land & resources. What isolation of Russia r u talking about? http://www.ng.ru/economics/2018-10-03/4_7324_opek.html
    Russia-India-China triangle is forming: https://vz.ru/politics/2018/10/3/944453.print.html
    India isn't going to turn her back at Russia even though she is a member of the British Commonwealth & has good relations with the USA. It & China r the 2 most populous nations: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt  & Turkey also buy Russian arms, etc. http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/58433/Sisi-to-visit-Russia-current-month
    http://www.kazakh-zerno.kz/novosti/mirovoj-rynok-selskogo-khozyajstva-i-prodovolstviya/248490-s-nachala-2018-19-selkhozgoda-rossiya-eksportirovala-v-egipet-2-215-mln-tonn-zerna

    Cooperation with Brazil & S. Korea r also ongoing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil%E2%80%93Russia_relations
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93South_Korea_relations#Economic_cooperation

    They try to protect what they have in their geographical setting; the Caucasus is a natural wall between Black & Caspian Seas (where Volga & Don flow into) guarding the S. Russia.
    Outbreaks of plague and fever in Russia linked to the work of the Georgian laboratory
    ..another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbors but literally everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves.
    U just perfectly described the USA & UK!
    Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.
    It's more rational path than what u r suggesting, i.e. just meekly lying down under Uncle Sam & spreading her legs to be raped, figuratively speaking! The West sees itself morally & economically superior & demands unconditional surrender since they "know best what's good for every1". But Russia, among others, has another idea!
    Sure, and Nazis have inhabited the dark side of the moon.
    Speaking of which, how did those Georgians benefited from siding with them?
    Being faced with an impossible choice between Hitler and Stalin's regime, members of the Georgian Legion often suffered tragic fates. Notably, during the Georgian uprising on Texel, hundreds of Georgians were killed by the Nazis. Those who "survived" were on Moscow's orders forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, only to end up perishing in Stalin's Gulags.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgische_Legion_(1941%E2%80%9345)
    Georgians were fighting each other for & against Stalin-ruled USSR, as they do now in Donbass. If there's another war after that between the West & Russia, the same thing will happen again. The videos of Georgians in Donbass I posted show fighters, not instructors. Their Ukrainian citizenship, if any, is only skin deep & a legal gimmick to win their loyalty. But Kiev can revoke it at any time, just like what happened to Mr. Saakashvili.
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:48 pm

    The Western Europeans consider them not worthy of their company & didn't want to make any accommodations with Russia.

    That is as evident in last decades false, both in regards to NATO questions and in general, culturally.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations

    ESPECIALY Western Europeans have no issue with Russian company whatsoever. In particular French and Germans, but in large the entire Western continent.

    and btw, cultural resentment goes, if anything, both ways. See daily Russian anti-West PR. It's almost USSR level. If you live in Germany, there is literaly no PR against Russia in the media unless something dramatic happens and even in that case, Russia is never mentioned as enemy, but opposition to US / coalition efforts.

    If we were to talk about Eastern European nations - Russian relations, than yes, some countries like Poland have slightly greater resentment. But then again, Polish did even suggest potential Russian NATO membership at some point.

    Medieval religious war is starting in Ukraine: "We will never agree to change the sacred canonical borders of our Church, for Kiev is the spiritual cradle of holy Russia, like Mtskheta for Georgia or Kosovo for Serbia," Patriarch Kirill of Moscow said in 2016. https://x-true.info/74326-rekomenduju-ukraincam-nachat-srochnuju-jevakuaciju.html
    Why Putin does not interfere with the West burial of Ukraine

    Two guys get mugged and you instantly subscribe to Russian "Holy War" PR. Tells me how credible your views are. While you're at it, why not also support the idea to "take Kiev back" since it's allegedly the "spiritual cradle of Holy Russia", a country so enormously religious only 47% are Christians. That's how much of a F the population gives.  
    Mate .... you really need to grasp the concept of federations and what the Kievan Rus actualy were before subscribing to any of those silly notions of Russia holding claim to anything beyond their own damn borders.

    Pl. use spell check before posting

    No !  

    130 nationalities


    What "130" nationalitis ? you make no sense.

    We are talking about the idea of 3 countries creating a union.  

    can't be unified

    Yes they can, very cosily even, if the people agreed.

    and apparently you've never heard of either the history of Germany and the Holy Roman Empire, nor of Russia, China and a score of other countries. Those unions create and fall apart much quicker than they did back then.

    much less strong enough to be a threat to Russia.

    There we have it again. Thinking only in threats  Wink

    But aligning with Russia's historical adversaries, NATO member Turkey among them, may doom Georgia to be a target & permanent backwater.

    Georgia needs neither Turkey nor NATO to be a threat to accomodate base Russian paranoia as evident in the last 28 years.

    Russia is an agenda and expansion driven near super powerful nation,

    lost control of the 14 Soviet republics

    That didn't belong to them in the first place. Never forget to point that out as well Smile

    What isolation of Russia r u talking about?http://www.ng.ru/economics/2018-10-03/4_7324_opek.html
    Russia-India-China triangle is forming: https://vz.ru/politics/2018/10/3/944453.print.html
    India isn't going to turn her back at Russia even though she is a member of the British Commonwealth & has good relations with the USA. It & China r the 2 most populous nations: Iran, Pakistan, Egypt  & Turkey also buy Russian arms, etc. http://www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/58433/Sisi-to-visit-Russia-current-month
    http://www.kazakh-zerno.kz/novosti/mirovoj-rynok-selskogo-khozyajstva-i-prodovolstviya/248490-s-nachala-2018-19-selkhozgoda-rossiya-eksportirovala-v-egipet-2-215-mln-tonn-zerna

    That's hilarious. So for the sheer sake of arguing with me, you are dismissing the greatest Russian pretext of all. lol1

    Of course it's complete nonsense. It's never been so in the first place !

    They try to protect what they have in their geographical setting; the Caucasus is a natural wall between Black & Caspian Seas (where Volga & Don flow into) guarding the S. Russia.

    The Caucaus is not a "wall" .... it's a region covering 4 souvereign countries. Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    ..another overreaching super powerful nation, that happens to be far more powerful on the political spectrum due to Russia's consistently misguided and impotent foreign policy, not just in regards to its neighbors but literally everyone they try to negotiate with. Their governments and rulers only think in leverages and threats thus far, since the end of WW2. So they go the thug route instead, and isolate themselves.

    U just perfectly described the USA & UK!

    I give you the UK. They could be greater scumbacks than both combined in the past if they chose to.

    But US, No. If you think that about the US, than frankly you are either not adequately informed about the past 70 years historical events or limited in the understanding of their foreign policy. The US did exactly the opposite of Russia in terms of influence and expansion as in they attracted with protection, prospect and funding opposite to just force projection, intimidation, bribery, oppression and violence. For the most part that is. I'm not saying USA is right, Russia is wrong. I'm pointing out the fact they have been thus far, far more successful with their tactics than Russia. Latter on the other hand, has been ever since discrediting itself. The US has lost popularity in that regard due to recent events especialy with the huge mess in the Middle East, but even despite that, little has changed.
    The USA's successful PR, funding, support and otherwise emphatic 'big brother' act crafted scores of strategicaly and economicaly valuable partners such as Japan, South Korea, India, the entirety of Europe, Israel and many others.

    In the end twist it as much as you like, but Russia is more upset about the fact the USA gets aways with it's expansionist policy more than itself. It couldn't care less about the misery such policy causes to others.

    Russia could have lifted imaginary US "isolation" a LONG TIME ago, without any form of use of force whatsoever, before it ever came down to the ever regressive situation since 2008. But it chose a different path, a stubborn, resenting path.

    It's more rational path than what u r suggesting, i.e. just meekly lying down under Uncle Sam & spreading her legs to be raped, figuratively speaking!

    I am not suggesting or implying anything of the like.

    If that's the only thing what they see, such nonsensical extremes than frankly I see no hope for Russia as credible nation.

    Then, they should really see to it, to have a more powerful leader and nation.

    No, I do not consider nonsensical force projection of hundreds of thousands of troops, powerful. It virtualy reeks of weakness in virtualy every other area but show of force. I call it desperate.

    The West sees itself morally & economically superior

    Cry my a damn river.
    I don't see any European countries invade or physicaly bully their smaller neighbours into submission because they have a misguided primitive perception of "influence spheres", and grab lands at will.

    But Russia, among others, has another idea!

    Like invading neighbours. Yay !

    Speaking of which

    You are getting in a historical argument with a guy who studied WW2 ? oh this is gonna be fun.

    how did those Georgians benefited from siding with them?

    I don't know. How did the other Ostlegionen troops made of Russians ( 300.000 ), Ukrainians ( 180.000 ), Azerbaijanis ( 70.000 ) and Armenians ( 33.000 ) and their Eastern allies Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians a score of other peoples and nations <- all of who enlisted in much greater numbers to the Nazi cause than Georgians benefit from it ? probably badly .... mostly because the Soviets killed them and labored them to death when they got ransfered back by the Allies.

    Only the ppl who actualy served in the Abwehr and some sabotage units like Brandenburgers were truly devoted fascists, and those people were mostly immigrants. We are talking about like maybe a few hundred. The vast majority of Georgians were captured Soviet troops like all the other captured Soviet troops who fought for Germany. They were considered unrealiable by the Germans because many switched sides again, so they were transferred all the way to France. One of them joined the French resistance and when he returned to Georgia former resistance members had to persuade Soviet authorities not to hang him.

    Being faced with an impossible choice between Hitler and Stalin's regime, members of the Georgian Legion often suffered tragic fates. Notably, during the Georgian uprising on Texel, hundreds of Georgians were killed by the Nazis. Those who "survived" were on Moscow's orders forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union, only to end up perishing in Stalin's Gulags.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgische_Legion_(1941%E2%80%9345)

    It is tragic indeed. They defended the Axis lines at Utah beach and then that Texel story. At least they went down fighting against the Nazis in the end. They were both screwed by the Nazis and the Soviets. So really it made no difference. Almost half the Georgians fighting for the Soviet survival didn't return either.

    So the only realy legit question is, how did WW2 benefit anyone ? not really. It was an ugly brutal and disgusting mess for anyone involved.

    Georgians were fighting each other .... as they do now in Donbass.

    Did I miss something or is this more alternate history ?

    If there's another war after that between the West & Russia, the same thing will happen again.

    What will happen is a bunch of giant fireballs followed by beautiful mushrooms and snowfall in summer.

    The videos of Georgians in Donbass I posted show fighters, not instructors.

    Nobody ever denied Georgians are fighting in Donbass. There's been an outcry in Georgia because of that. People don't actualy support it. Otherwise there would have been hundreds of volunteers.

    Among those people, very few are actualy military, and even fewer are what you could consider high military caliber, maybe 1 or two, like Kurasbediani.

    What you talk of is absolutly insignificant in weight. Georgia is neither sending officaly nor inofficialy ppl to Ukraine to fight there.

    Their Ukrainian citizenship, if any, is only skin deep & a legal gimmick to win their loyalty.

    ... and ? You are trying to make an elephant out of nothingness. You'd have a point if it were actual Georgian servicemen. But they aren't.

    But Kiev can revoke it at any time, just like what happened to Mr. Saakashvili.

    Of course they can.

    So ?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:13 am

    ESPECIALY Western Europeans have no issue with Russian company whatsoever.
    Back in 2000 their elites vetoed RF joining NATO, & that's what I tried to say.
    Two guys get mugged and you instantly subscribe to Russian "Holy War" PR.
    It's not a case of simple mugging, & it's only a beginning!
    What "130" nationalitis ? you make no sense. We are talking about the idea of 3 countries creating a union.
    I've been to all 3, & doubt it's possible at all.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_of_the_Caucasus
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Caucasian-languages
    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/georgia/articles/16-incredible-facts-about-the-languages-of-the-caucasus/

    Central Americans & some S. Americans were united after gaining independence from Spain but split, even though they r culturally closer than people of Transcaucasia. The same with Central Asian Stans- Turkestan was split even under the USSR into several republics, & they had border clashes, much less able to unite after 1991.
    Those unions create and fall apart much quicker than they did back then. ..Thinking only in threats
    Exactly! Russia knows this, & every state has a threat matrix to formulate its foreign & defense policies.
    Georgia needs neither Turkey nor NATO to be a threat to accomodate base Russian paranoia as evident in the last 28 years.

    No, if they were paranoid, they would've taken Tbilisi in 2008 & Kiev in 2014. But they didn't get caught in those traps the West prepared for them, as the article I posted explained.
    That didn't belong to them in the first place.
    U remind me of 1 Native American I talked that doesn't accept the idea of land ownership & the fact that the Russians once owned Alaska. But de-facto & de-jure they did! That's a typical provincial mentality! Moscow, the capital of RSFSR & USSR ruled all the other 14 capitals, therefore, Russia is now the legal inheritor of USSR. In it's hymn it said:
    An unbreakable union of free republics,
    The Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Long live the creation of the will of the people,
    The united, mighty Soviet Union
    !
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Anthem_of_the_Soviet_Union#Original_lyrics
    ..for the sheer sake of arguing with me, you are dismissing the greatest Russian pretext of all.
    What pretext? Stop calling black white! Russia is far from isolated; it's the US under Trump that is becoming so.
    The Caucasus is not a "wall" .... it's a region covering 4 sovereign countries. Russia, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.
    It is a de-facto wall, with few strategic roads across it, & almost as tall as the Alps in some places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains
    The US did exactly the opposite of Russia in terms of influence and expansion as in they attracted with protection,..
    It's called "protection racket". Their MIC & other businesses benefit from it.
    ..they have been thus far, far more successful with their tactics than Russia. Latter on the other hand, has been ever since discrediting itself. The US has lost popularity in that regard due to recent events especialy with the huge mess in the Middle East, but even despite that, little has changed.
    The USA's successful PR, funding, support and otherwise emphatic 'big brother' act crafted scores of strategicaly and economicaly valuable partners such as Japan, South Korea, India, the entirety of Europe, Israel and many others. But now the trade wars they started will flush that success down the drain.
    but Russia is more upset about the fact the USA gets aways with it's expansionist policy more than itself.
    No, again u mispercieve them! They learned from USSR's & others mistakes in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Somalia, Libya & Iraq & try to avoid repeating them.
    I don't see any European countries invade or physicaly bully their smaller neighbours into submission because they have a misguided primitive perception of "influence spheres", and grab lands at will.
    It's called "neocolonialism": after they fleeced their colonies they live on the residual income
    & intervene there with IMF, mercenaries & military force to maintain the borders & the status quo they imposed there. A case in point: Diego Garcia. The US could care less about all the islanders the UK had deported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia#Expulsion_of_1971

    The US also supported the French in Indochina before its own disastrous involvement there.
    Like invading neighbors.
    As a reaction to NATO expansion, artillery bombardments, & ethnic violence on its artificial borders drawn by Stalin & Beria.
    How did the other Ostlegionen troops made of Russians ( 300.000 ), Ukrainians ( 180.000 ), Azerbaijanis ( 70.000 ) and Armenians ( 33.000 ) and their Eastern allies Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians a score of other peoples and nations <- all of who enlisted in much greater numbers to the Nazi cause than Georgians benefit from it?
    But we talking about Georgians here.
    The vast majority of Georgians were captured Soviet troops like all the other captured Soviet troops who fought for Germany.
    But they all volunteered to fight against Stalin, just like those others u mentioned.
    Did I miss something or is this more alternate history?
    If there r Ukrainian & Russian Georgians in Donbass, just like Belorussians, Chechens & Russians, they may kill each other there. It's the reality of war!
    What will happen is a bunch of giant fireballs followed by beautiful mushrooms and snowfall in summer.
    Not necessarily. Tactical nukes won't  
    produce nuclear winter. In any case, they hybrid war has already been going on ever since 1991.
    Georgia is neither sending officially nor unofficially ppl to Ukraine to fight there.
    But they go there on their own free will to avenge the losses of 2008 & help the Kiev regime against Russia. Tbilisi should announce an amnesty for those who return, prosecute those who don't, & arrest those who they know plan to go there. Then they can wash their hands & be clean in this.
    You'd have a point if it were actual Georgian servicemen. But they aren't.
    Regardless, they r of military age, served in the army/police &/ fought in other conflicts before, & getting paid for it. U r being selective: Russia also claims that her servicemen r not in Donbass, but for different reasons, I, u, & many others don't buy that. So, if u call all those people invaders, then Georgians there r also invaders, regardless of their legal status in Georgia.
    Of course they can.
    And they will do so, as soon it become expedient, as a gratitude for being expendable cannon fodder.
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:17 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Elites

    Elites make less than 1%. Culturaly and socialy Russians are accepted without any issues whatsoever in all of Europe. Particularily Germany, France, Greece etc.

    It's not a case of simple mugging, & it's only a beginning!

    Crusade against the Russian Church ..... right.  Rolling Eyes

    I've been to all 3, & doubt it's possible at all.

    So you mean ethnic groups. Russia has over 160 ethnic groups not Caucasus. The entirety of the Caucasus region is home to no more than 50 ethnic groups. If we reduce it to the South Caucasus it are dramaticaly less. The vast majority would strictly be Georgian, Armenian and Azeri still. Especialy the latter two have kept it homogenous due to ethnic conflicts. Georgia is the the only realy ethnicaly diverse nation of the three. I don't see a greater issue there than in Russia.

    Far less likely things have happened in many other countries.

    When there is talk of a Union, it doesn't mean merging all three countries, their beliefs, religions and traditions togheter and redrawing all borders. That's a work of fiction. The peoples wouldn't accept that willingly anyway.
    It is about the hypothetical idea of something like a strong trade, economic and defence union. That concept has been brought up many times and also briefly achieved in 1918 with the short lived Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic. However it fell apart due to the ongoing war with the Ottomans, general turmoil of WW1 and individual territorial disputes. It was tried under very unfavorable and virtualy impossible circumstances. Just the fact all 3 countries even came togheter to suggest and form it, is a small miracle in itself.

    So, the general idea is anything but far fetched. Especialy in the 21st century it can be done. But in order to succeed all conflicts need to cease. All sides need to burry the hatchet. I won't go further than this, because honestly I fear giving the Russian gov ideas on how to further undermine dialogue ....  Rolling Eyes

    Central Americans & some S. Americans were united after gaining independence from Spain but split, even though they r culturally closer than people of Transcaucasia. The same with Central Asian Stans- Turkestan was split even under the USSR into several republics, & they had border clashes, much less able to unite after 1991.

    There are always examples to counter examples. But fact is, far less likely things have happened. Empires consisting of 500 autonomous states with their own currency and measurement units, and traditions were merged to one nation .... whole countries weare formed out of nothing.

    Maybe it won't happen at all. But impossible, it is not.

    Exactly! Russia knows this, & every state has a threat matrix to formulate its foreign & defense policies.


    It wouldn't be a greater threat than having NATO bases in the South Caucasus.

    No, if they were paranoid, they would've taken Tbilisi in 2008 & Kiev in 2014. But they didn't get caught in those traps the West prepared for them, as the article I posted explained.

    They are paranoid and they don't take entire countries because they don't need to. That article is flawed even in basic assessment of reality. For Russia it was completly enough what they achieved in Abkhazia setting a basis for long term instability consciously because they couldn't cope with the loss, wanted to maintain a foothold and permanent presence in their "sphere of influence" and unconsciously they effectively eliminating any prospects for Georgia to join either NATO or the EU, which back then was not even in the minds of anyone in Georgia, let alone dreamt about.

    Taking Tbilisi in 2008 would have been dumbest political move Russia could have done in that situation, and frankly part of me wished they had.

    Trying to take Kiev and causing a Russo-Ukrainian war would have been an even greater and a very costly stupidity.

    Both events would have permanently crippled Russia's credibility on the world stage among other things.

    But de-facto & de-jure they did!

    de-facto as in physicaly maybe, but 'de-jure' ? are you really trying to fiddle some kind of ..... legitimacy .... in there ? wow mate. ^^
    Especialy as a jurist it's giving me headaches.
    They forcefully took and incorporated countries that didn't belong to them and never consented with it. Any legitimacy of such a claim is nonexistent. Ergo there hasn't been any "loss" to cry after, so stop repeating the same nonsense their delusioned hardcore communists use to sprout. USSR is history.

    What pretext? Stop calling black white! Russia is far from isolated;

    The very pretext they've been using themselves for years, not me  Wink you just need to glance at every single forum on the internet on that topic.

    I don't agree with it, at all. Don't call me out ^^

    it's the US under Trump that is becoming so.

    Not really.

    It is a de-facto wall, with few strategic roads across it, & almost as tall as the Alps in some places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains

    Physical wall aka mountains and symbolic wall aka strategic buffer are two entirely different things, and I assumed you meant latter.

    It's called "protection racket". Their MIC & other businesses benefit from it.

    So do their partners benefit from it more than being under Russian influence. That's just an observable fact.

    No, again u mispercieve them! They learned from USSR's & others mistakes in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Somalia, Libya & Iraq & try to avoid repeating them.

    Yeah. They learned how to prep and fight wars better and more carefully. Preferably many years before potential escalation is required.

    It's called "neocolonialism": after they fleeced their colonies they live on the residual income

    You imply it is any different with Russia. Since the world is connected it will always be so as long as single nations exist with power difference and economic weight. But in Europe it is a give and take even if varying and there are virtualy no borders for Europeans. You can't and won't get any of those benefits remotely in that scale with Russia in its current state.

    & intervene there with IMF, mercenaries & military force to maintain the borders & the status quo they imposed there.


    Oh you mean like Russia.

    As a reaction to NATO expansion, artillery bombardments

    There was no "NATO expansion" in 1991, only artificial sessession instigated by Russia.

    Please don't talk of "bombardments" when the GAF responded primarily to those in 08 and especialy not knowing Russia's own background with fighting sessessions and insurgencies.

    on its artificial borders drawn by Stalin & Beria.

    Oh look, another geography expert  lol1 how about historical facts for a change ?

    I assume you are implying that Georgia was made smaller during the USSR, because that's the only thing that happened. Those borders ( or rather extended ) exsted before either of them were even born. The Georgian Democratic Republic was larger and the Georgia as part of the Russian Empire even larger, though periodicaly the Batumi province switched hands due to wars with the Ottomans.

    But we talking about Georgians here.

    and you were implying Georgian collaboration with Nazis. Didn't work out so well now did it ? Wink

    But they all volunteered to fight against Stalin, just like those others u mentioned.

    Yes, it was either labor to death or fight on our side

    .... and ?

    If there r Ukrainian & Russian Georgians in Donbass, just like Belorussians, Chechens & Russians, they may kill each other there. It's the reality of war!

    Okay .... and ? they chose to. It's their business.

    In any case, they hybrid war has already been going on ever since 1991.

    Hybrid war is not to even slightly be compared to what happens if both sides or one side, went full retard.

    But they go there on their own free will to avenge the losses of 2008 & help the Kiev regime against Russia.

    Yet again .... so ?

    It's their business their personal fight. So do Russians and many others.

    Ofc its tragic. People die. Other than that, don't see where you're getting with this.

    Tbilisi should announce an amnesty for those who return, prosecute those who don't, & arrest those who they know plan to go there. Then they can wash their hands & be clean in this.

    Tbilisi has no dirty hands in that business to clean in the first place. Just the suggestion of that is incredibly impertinent.

    Those people got their citizenships revoked, they will stay there. Are Russian mercenaries and volunteers being prosecuted for attacking Ukraine ?

    Tss .... people.

    Regardless, they r of military age, served in the army/police &/ fought in other conflicts before, & getting paid for it. U r being selective:


    Completly irrelevant. Your point was that Georgia sends people. That was refuted. Now you are being desperate in your search to find something to blame.

    Russia also claims that her servicemen r not in Donbass, but for different reasons, I, u, & many others don't buy that.


    Please have some self respect. You know as well as everyone else who puts up a stubborn but silly ah act, that nothing is done without Kremlin's approval, direct planning and inteference. Especialy not in 2014.

    Only now you can claim that the separatists have more or less wide autonomy in their decisions ( if at all ) unless something meaningful needs to happen.

    So, if u call all those people invaders, then Georgians there r also invaders, regardless of their legal status in Georgia.

    Except the Georgians aren't invading Ukraine like the Russians. They are defending their homes there in the Ukrainian army.

    And they will do so, as soon it become expedient, as a gratitude for being expendable cannon fodder.
    [/quote]

    and Why exactly does that matter to you ? they chose it, they know the risk. Nontheless they take it because they think they fight for the right thing. Like I said, their decision. Has nothing to do with Georgia whatsoever.

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