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    Turkish-Cyprus (Greece) tensions

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:33 pm

    Isos wrote:Russia doesn't give a fuck about who rules Turkey as long as they don't close or threaten russian ships in the Bosphorus strait.

    Turkey hasn't got the military, economical or political power to face Russia. No matter what Erdogan pretends. He has 200 f16, few corvettes and subs and no air defence system. How could he face su57, tupolevs, kalibr and other cruise missiles, s-400, economical pressure from russia ?

    The big issue is in the mediteranean with Greece, Cyprus and Egypt. And that's EU's problem.

    Bosporus strait status for naval ships has always been a point of disagreement between Turkey and USSR/Russia. It was the reason actually that Turkey entered NATO in 1952. So dont be surprised if it will come up again in short-term future
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:03 pm

    I hope for it won't be the case. Russians haven't signed to lease the Hmeimim base and the Tartus port and armed them with nuclear capable iskanders in Syria to protect Assad ...
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun May 17, 2020 2:51 am

    Turkey signals more tension with Greece over migrants, saying border is open

    Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu has signalled that more tension is to come with Greece after he said that Turkey will maintain its open-door border policy for migrants and refugees to cross over into Europe, Greek newspaper Kathimerini said.

    “Anyone who wants to can go to Europe, we do not prevent it,” Çavuşoğlu said in comments to Turkey’s Akit TV.

    Çavuşoğlu also denounced what he described as Greece’s “inhumane” behaviour toward migrants seeking to cross into the country. “The West’s non-reaction to Greece’s inhumane behaviour at the border is an unacceptable situation,” he said.

    Turkey has criticised Greece for suspending asylum applications and deploying violence against migrants trying to cross. A report this month by Sky News and several open-source investigators found that the bullet which killed a migrant at the border in March likely came from the Greek side of the border.

    Greece has accused Turkey of encouraging and coordinating the attempted crossings and of firing tear gas over the border.

    Çavuşoğlu’s remarks to Akit TV have increased concern in Greece, which has been strengthening its resources at its Evros land border in anticipation of another possible migrant surge from Turkey similar to the one in February and March, when thousands of people attempted to cross into Greece.

    Turkey announced in late February it would no longer prevent migrants from trying to reach Europe. The move was perceived as an attempt to drum up more European Union aid for the roughly four million refugees inside Turkey, and to rally European support for Turkey’s military campaign in Idlib, Syria.

    Against this backdrop, tensions between Turkey and Greece have also been growing over recent weeks due to a dispute over gas exploration rights off the coast of Cyprus, and Turkish violations of Greek airspace.

    Turkey conducted more violations of Greek airspace on Wednesday with a pair of F-16s flying over the eastern Aegean islet of Farmakonisi, Kathimerini said.

    Earlier this month, Greece accused Turkish fighter jets of harassing a helicopter carrying Greek Defence Minister Nikolaos Panagiotopoulos.

    Turkey's violation of Greek airspace and territorial waters in the Aegean Sea sharply increased in 2019, especially over the last months of the year.

    "The number of violations of Greek national airspace by Turkish military aircraft reached 4,811 in 2019, the largest number in one calendar year since 1987. There were 384 mock dogfights between Greek and Turkish fighter jets last year, while there were only 13 such fights in 2010," a report by the Hellenic National Defence General Staff said in January.

    https://ahvalnews.com/refugees/turkey-signals-more-tension-greece-over-migrants-saying-border-open
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Mon May 25, 2020 12:35 pm

    Greece accuses Turkey of seizing its border territory

    By
    News Desk -
    2020-05-24 1

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (5:00 P.M.) – The Greek government recently accused Turkey of seizing some of its territory along its eastern border.

    Turkey responded on Saturday by stating that it would not allow de facto borders after Athens complained to Ankara that Turkish forces had seized land at the course of the Evros River that separates the two countries.

    A statement by the Turkish Foreign Ministry said, “Ankara informed Greece that the river course has changed significantly for natural and artificial reasons, since 1926 when the borders were established, and that the solution requires technical coordination.”

    The ministry said, “The dispute can be resolved through talks between the technical delegations of the two countries, which is a proposal submitted by Ankara to Athens, adding,” We will not allow any form of de facto on our borders. ”

    For his part, Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Dendias said last Wednesday that “the course of the river has changed”, indicating that there was tension between the two countries for this reason.

    Greek media reported on Friday that Turkish forces occupied a piece of land that is usually submerged in water at this time of the year, located on the Greek side of the border.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/greece-accuses-turkey-of-seizing-its-border-territory/
    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:57 pm

    Egypt has signed the maritime deal with Greece on purpose to put tensions between EU and Turkey as a response of the last Turkish moves in Libya . Those days there are daily tensions between Greek and Turkish navies . EU is supporting Greece . Greece in joint manoeuvres with France.

    Egypt's maritime deal with Greece
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:28 pm

    UAE sends 9 military aircraft to Greece as tensions with Turkey intensify



    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/uae-sends-9-military-aircraft-to-greece-as-tensions-with-turkey-intensify/
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:30 am

    Arab states are with our side Very Happy
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:42 am

    Does Turkey contest the islands off their coast ?
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:59 am

    Isos wrote:Does Turkey contest the islands off their coast ?

    they basically contest Aegean islands Continental Shelf
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:08 am

    This is the egg that Faildogan gets on his face after pissing every one of his neighbors off and old-time allies too by playing Sultan

    Still, Washington will continue to support him as he's useful for undermining Russian influence in the Caucasus and Central Asia, as well as sponsoring Muslim Brotherhood uprisings in Arab states such as Egypt and Syria that become a little too independent for the US's liking.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:00 pm

    George1 wrote:Arab states are with our side Very Happy

    They must do that .Turkey is a threat to many Arab states now .Erdogan has lost his mind ,he is occupying parts of Syria ,Iraq and Libya and dealing with terrorists whom became a real instability factor in the region.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:40 am

    George1 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Does Turkey contest the islands off their coast ?

    they basically contest Aegean islands Continental Shelf

    I know nothing about those islands but that part of the world has a huge history. And we all know history is made at 90% if not more of wars which means control of the ground going from one to another.

    So both can ask for the islands.

    That's the problem with contested lands. There will never be a solution that agrees both sides.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:23 am

    Isos wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    Isos wrote:Does Turkey contest the islands off their coast ?

    they basically contest Aegean islands Continental Shelf

    I know nothing about those islands but that part of the world has a huge history. And we all know history is made at 90% if not more of wars which means control of the ground going from one to another.

    So both can ask for the islands.

    That's the problem with contested lands. There will never be a solution that agrees both sides.

    So the same for the control of West Minor Asia coast? Very Happy

    Because we have Greek settlements there from 6th century BC long before Turks/ottomans appear on this earth..
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 am

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    Post  nomadski on Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:41 am

    Access to mineral resources. There is no dispute regarding this, if said resources are in land or sea territory of a nation. The problems arise when such resources are in international waters or territory without any permanent inhabitants, such as North or South Pole, or perhaps other planets or the moon !

    There can be some factors in deciding this. Among these, I can think of  population size , size of nation, distance to the resource . Out of these, population size is of primary importance. Since the size of nation, although large, does not ensure fair distribution. Because a very large nation with few inhabitants, needs fewer resources. Nor distance from resource, should determine. Since fate might have it, that such resources are located near one nation than another. Denying such nation of resources. So  in  this case of..... " continental shelf ",  is a non starter. Turkey or Greece can only have a share, in proportion to the size of population, in ratio to world population.  Say 200 million population in ratio to 8000 million world population. Only one in forty of proved capacity! The rest belongs to the south American tribes, who will develop an industry to extract in 50 years time. Same metric for North Pole or the Moon......Or South China Sea. China can have one eight of proved reserves.... The rest belongs to the African Nubian tribes........ And.....
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:57 am

    nomadski wrote:Access to mineral resources. There is no dispute regarding this, if said resources are in land or sea territory of a nation. The problems arise when such resources are in international waters or territory without any permanent inhabitants, such as North or South Pole, or perhaps other planets or the moon !

    that's why Turkey threatens Greece if we expand our territorial waters to 12 nautical miles according to the international law. If we do that in Aegean, Aegean Sea becomes 90% greek territory Smile
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    Post  nomadski on Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:36 pm

    Yes agree. It looks like most nations have adopted the 12 mile limit.  This gives Greece  more control over the resources in the sea. But also the UN law seem unclear. For example, if limits of territorial waters overlap, then a median line is selected. Or limits agreed by negotiation. Also any coastal nation has exclusive economic zone, extending 200 miles from coast. In this case by law, Turkey seems to have rights too.

    Ancient law recognised 3 miles. According to distance a cannon shot travelled from shore. I guess the thinking was that, there was no need for a military dispute. Since outcome was predictable. And depended on range of weapons. By this argument, the range of territorial waters, should extend the globe. Since range of modern weapons, spans the globe. In essence there are no territorial waters anymore.

    But I do not use such arguments. On one extreme, I could say that property and resources are universally owned by all humanity. This is not crazy. Already people argue that Earth climate being affected by Amazon deforestation, is all their concern. And they are right. Similar arguments could be made for some other concentrated but strategic resources. Such as some types of Fish. As foods. Limitations on fisheries by Japan or others about whales.

    The other extreme of argument, recognises ownership by the few or the powerful, over vast areas. In an exclusive manner.  The building of Islands in the sea. Monumental tasks, that only the powerful can perform. Not the poor or the weak. Hence exclusivity. But this argument fails. In that the poor or the many, are denied development and economic opportunities.  Geographical distances are no answer either. Since fortune would deny most from vital resources. The only solution ideally is to allow a proportional share of Earth resources. According to size of population. So in this case, irrespective of what the UN or a court says, the best solution is limited exploitation by Greece and Turkey. By agreement.

    Similarly the resources in the Arctic or south China Sea, should be shared. By limiting exploitation, by any single nation.



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:07 pm

    http://www.opex360.com/2020/09/01/un-responsable-du-gouvernement-grec-confirme-lintention-dathenes-de-se-procurer-des-rafale/

    Greece may buy Rafale to counter Turkey. A greek official confirmed they want it but there is still nothing official. I put here cause tge contract wasn't signed and it change the power balance with Turkey.

    Some media say around 18 but otger only 10-12 (with some old ones takeb from french AF) which is more realistic.

    The Rafale is much better than the f-16, and considering how turkish AF suffered from Erdogan's witch hunt, they can be alone enough to destroy Turkish AF coming inside Greece, specially if they get the Meteor (f-16 are practice targets for it).
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:31 am


    So what about other 200 jets they need to catch up?

    Gotta love the French, entertainment for the ages

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:40 am

    Well, at least I hope they will get a better price than what the frenchs made the Indians pay for their rafales....
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:34 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So what about other 200 jets they need to catch up?

    Gotta love the French, entertainment for the ages


    Greece has around 150 f16 and 40 mirage 2000-5. With 12 Rafale more they will have 200 jets. And a good aur defence.

    Turkey has 240 f-16 I think but its experienced pilots are gone.

    Advantage Greece.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:56 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    So what about other 200 jets they need to catch up?

    Gotta love the French, entertainment for the ages


    Greece has around 150 f16 and 40 mirage 2000-5. With 12 Rafale more they will have 200 jets. And a good aur defence.

    Turkey has 240 f-16 I think but its experienced pilots are gone.

    Advantage Greece.

    turkey has other fronts also
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:43 am

    Yes. Kurds in the south east. Syria/Russia in the south. Russia/Armenia/Iran in the east. Cyrprus also in the west.

    They can allow only 1/4 if its jets to confront Greece.
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    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:04 pm

    Isos wrote:Yes. Kurds in the south east. Syria/Russia in the south. Russia/Armenia/Iran in the east. Cyrprus also in the west.

    They can allow only 1/4 if its jets to confront Greece.

    and be aware also that in case of war, Cyprus will sure fight together with Greece
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    Post  The Ottoman on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:36 am

    Only third states and weapon sellers are benefitting from these tenions, like France and US.

    Both parties should talk and solve this diplomaticly and give up their maximalist claims.

    Main problem is

    - that Turkey has the longest coast in the East Med, but get the most minimum share of the sea.

    - Greece claims 40.000 km'2 EEZ for a tiny island (Meis/Kastellorizo) with a square of 12km'2.

    - The distance of this island to Greece is 580 km. And to Turkey only 2km. Greece is claiming the whole distance in the sea (580 km long) between their mainland and this island as theirs.

    - Because of this a Turkish cruise ship could not travel between Antalya and Marmara without Greek naval police.

    - Its like the UK claiming the whole Atlantic Ocean because of the Falklands or USA claiming the whole Pacific because of Hawai.

    - The Turkish-Greek conflict is similar to the French-Brittish conflict years ago. The UK claimed the whole Channel because of some tiny Channel Island. France rejected this and brought the case to the International Court. The Court decided that the Channel Islands should not have a EEZ. France won this case.

    Talking solves everything.

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