https://www.rbc.ru/business/19/12/2019/5dfba6149a794741cafb9c00
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/21/12/2019/5dfd50909a7947e7984b6cf3
GarryB wrote:Personally I think Putin has made a mistake in recognising Kiev as the legitimate leadership in the Ukraine, why recognise a foreign financed illegal coup with a lot of war crimes that need investigation.
Having said that using the gas pipes in the Ukraine will probably be necessary to meet the requirements of its EU customers... what they should be saying is that if you don't want to cooperate, if you want to interfere and even steal gas going to other customers then the gas pipes going through the Ukraine will never take Russian gas again no matter what assurances you make and we will simply supply our EU customers with LNG at higher cost to them and no transit fees to you.
You are fucking the golden goose to death... it seems without mains pressure of transit gas their own internal gas pipe network wont work on its own so it doesn't even matter how much gas they currently have...
GarryB wrote:Personally I think Putin has made a mistake in recognising Kiev as the legitimate leadership in the Ukraine, why recognise a foreign financed illegal coup with a lot of war crimes that need investigation.
GarryB wrote:Having said that using the gas pipes in the Ukraine will probably be necessary to meet the requirements of its EU customers... what they should be saying is that if you don't want to cooperate, if you want to interfere and even steal gas going to other customers then the gas pipes going through the Ukraine will never take Russian gas again no matter what assurances you make and we will simply supply our EU customers with LNG at higher cost to them and no transit fees to you.
ATLASCUB wrote:The deal is out. Someone got bent. As expected.
Zelensky won the elections held in Ukraine. There is no reason not to recognize them out of petty spite as not talking to the Ukrainian government would bring no real benefit to either side.
The deal is out. Someone got bent. As expected.
...............The deal represents a big victory for Ukraine. Kyiv had been holding out for a 10-year agreement, whereas the Kremlin had offered only a one year deal in its previous public remarks. Zelenskiy said after the Paris summit that Kyiv was prepared to compromise and suggested a three-year deal, so a five-year is a significant advance.
But Ukraine will also take a hit as the 65bcm guaranteed transit minimum is less than Ukraine flowed this year. Russia sent 87bcm to Europe via Ukraine in 2018 and will sent an estimated 90bcm in 2019, so the flows will be reduced to two thirds of current levels in 2020 and less than half in 2021 to 2025, falling by approximately the amount of capacity that will become available when Nord Stream 2 comes online, which can flow 55bcm a year. [Why this is a “victory” for Ukraine when Russia still needs some Ukrainian capacity which it has now secured is beyond me.]
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Regular wrote:By the way,
I am not talking about killing jews, Ukrainians talk about that yet they suckle on their toes. I am talking about taxing specifically their oligarchs so they would think twice about stealing. They shouldn't be able to take the money they earn in Russia to offshore accounts before paying lion's share to the state and people. Don't you fucking agree?!!!
I am not talking about doing this white supremacist bullshit that happened not long ago
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/guatemala/11065563/Jewish-sect-expelled-from-Guatemalan-village-after-clashes-with-Mayan-villagers.html
By the way, who controls Ukraine and their Nazis?
I don't think I have enough ink in my keyboard to name Odessa and Kiev jewish mafian names who control Zelensky. Or Poro.
Yarosh as well had jewish love and funding.
Read more Antimaidan press to get simple understand who is the real enemy of Russians in this conflict. Ukrainians are retards, but they are poor retards.
I could do with a small stipend from those transit fees Russia will be gifting to Ukrie oligarchs. I don't even need a cut on the $2.6 billions in extortion money that the Americans just extorted, through sheer will, for Ukrie oligarchs, on the backs of the Russian taxpayer. They offered Russia a deal they couldn't refuse, pay the extortion now, or pay more extortion later. lol1
The propaganda bot army can spin it all they want.... someone's for sure laughing all their way to the bank.
GarryB wrote:
I could do with a small stipend from those transit fees Russia will be gifting to Ukrie oligarchs. I don't even need a cut on the $2.6 billions in extortion money that the Americans just extorted, through sheer will, for Ukrie oligarchs, on the backs of the Russian taxpayer. They offered Russia a deal they couldn't refuse, pay the extortion now, or pay more extortion later. lol1
The propaganda bot army can spin it all they want.... someone's for sure laughing all their way to the bank.
The money the Ukraine gets in transit fees is money from the EU, not from Russia... it is the EU paying for gas supplies from Russia that is also paying any transit fees to deliver it to them... they don't have to make the gas, they just need to extract it and find a customer and deliver it... after those costs it is all profit.
Russia wrote of tens of billions of dollars worth of cold war debt to countries like Cuba and others as well, because such a thing will get in the way of making money now, so writing off such debts makes sense most of the time....
ATLASCUB wrote:Russia as the origin country and the one pumping and selling the gas is the ultimate decider. It decides which country(s) become transit countries and the pipe route. Stop the BS.
The spins are weaker by the day. $5 billion or so in transit fees estimated between now and the deal's expiration date. The pressure tactics worked - all of them.
Accept the inconvenient facts of geopolitics and business and move on. There is no moral pedestal to sit on.
Russia as the origin country and the one pumping and selling the gas is the ultimate decider.
It decides which country(s) become transit countries and the pipe route.
The spins are weaker by the day.
$5 billion or so in transit fees estimated between now and the deal's expiration date.
The pressure tactics worked - all of them.
Accept the inconvenient facts of geopolitics and business and move on. There is no moral pedestal to sit on.
This I agree. But until the other pipes are completed (Turkstream expansion and Nordstream 2), they had little choice.
I would say this was a loss for Russia in geopolitics for sure. One loss at least. Can't win all fights. Even Putin himself said it was bullshit regarding the 2.9B they paid to naftogaz even though Ukraine owes Russia $3B and hasn't been paid yet.
So Russia gave up some security for a few bucks.
So I agree with you on this Atlas. Russia blinked first. And it was the wrong move. Hopefully tougher people get control so they can stop funding their own enemy.
First Putin agrees on a deal with Merkel to keep transit through Ukraine (a not so subtle blackmail), with the carrot being an "unbreakable commitment" on NordStream II. Here Germany again playing the double game they've played so well for the past 30+ years.
But obviously the U.S could care less what agreement Russia and Germany reach. The U.S is completely against that carrot.
So in order to reinsure that transit through Ukraine keeps on flowing the U.S has their stooge in Poland reduce the capacity of the Opal pipeline. This comes as an assurance measure in case Putin thinks he can pull a fast one and take it as an acceptable loss to lose transit through Ukraine - forcing the Germans to a take it or leave it situation at a more opportune time. Or, simply, to significantly improve the negotiating hand of Ukraine - as opposed to getting raped by Russia. With Opal capacity significantly reduced, the costs of cutting transit through Ukraine just went up. And there are more commitments with other countries as well, it's not just Germany... which compounds the issue.
Enough to keep the zombified state known as Ukraine churning for a few more years, partly on Russia's dime....
More like a brilliant masterpiece of geopolitical pressure games by the Empire with their stooges at hand. Given their limited cards (no physical presence on the continent, no viable developed alternative to Russian supplies etc) they played a great game.
They placed enough mines along the way to keep Russian progress at a trickle. That's without mentioning the fate of Southstream. This is exactly what containment means. Politics is the art of the possible after all. That's why the empire does these things... sometimes they fail... sometimes they succeed... sometimes a bit of both. If you don't try these tactics and strategies, you never get to find out.
Do keep spinning Garry. After all, that's your job on practically every thread.
Garry, even Putin himself said it was bullshit that the European courts gave the right to Naftogaz because it clearly stated "Ukraine's current conditions cannot pay for it" to which Putin said "so we have to pay for Ukraine to survive?". This is Novak and his oligarchs that are dancing to the west and Europe's tune and this just showed that Putin doesn't have full control. Or he has given too much control to them in negotiations.
And ATLAS is right, these are same European kangaroo courts that Russia bitched about but still follows even though it goes contrary to Russia's constitution.
Average Russian is actually really pissed off with these decisions. Most feel that it's their gas so why bother keeping Ukraine alive? They can sell gas to China and rest of Asia and now Turkey. While EU can then buy year by year through existing pipelines and LNG minus by Ukraine. But no, the Russians got played very hard here. This was a political failure from Russia. This was their chance to stand firm in their belief to have finally backed down.
As KVS said before, gas sales isn't that important anymore to overall economy. So they should have shown some balls at least. Most Russians want that. They are pissed off with this saying that this makes them look weak and unable to protect their own resources.
You really are trying to spin this hard but eventually you will acknowledge this failure. Russians have. Putin has. Even some in government has with one deputy prime minister saying they had little choice. So yeah.
One detail that displeases me much is that Gazprom didn't move their pipe laying ship from the far east to the Baltic ahead of time.
It is not as if they had no idea that the USA would pull the sort of stunt that it pulled. Even if the USA had not imposed its sanctions
racket, the cost of relocating the ship would have been small and the move would itself likely have served to remove any teeth
from US sanctions and thereby prevented them. Instead, Gazprom (and Russia) is now caught with its pants down and has to wait
over two months to relocate the ship.
Even though I can see the realpolitik benefit of paying the ludicrous "fine", I disagree with it having been paid. It is an obvious
political dirty trick since nobody on the planet can demand extra price discounts based on their poverty level. Nobody. At
best they can seek government welfare or charity.
The only reason there are European companies involved in the Nord stream pipeline was because Germany asked the Russians to split responsibility.GarryB wrote:why wasn't this alternative Russian ship doing the job in the first place
nero wrote:The only reason there are European companies involved in the Nord stream pipeline was because Germany asked the Russians to split responsibility.GarryB wrote:why wasn't this alternative Russian ship doing the job in the first place
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