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US Navy ships and weapon systems
George1- Posts : 18324
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JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Two floors below the fire is an approximate 1M gallons of fuel, presumably diesel for the ship and aviation for the aircraft, unless the latter was pumped out before re-furb. The propulsion are is apparently not believed to be effected. There were Halon flooding areas but some were turned off due to the re-furb, might be why the engines are safe. Lots of builders debris around that slowed access but burnt well, temp around 1000 degrees.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Black smoke means that paint, plastic & electrical insulation r burning.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34801/two-decks-are-thought-to-separate-fire-on-uss-bonhomme-richard-from-1m-gallons-of-fuel
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fire-continues-rage-aboard-navy-ship-san-diego/story?id=71757147
There will be less direct interventions abroad, so the USN/MC can adjust to make do with less, esp. since US allies have those types of ships too.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34801/two-decks-are-thought-to-separate-fire-on-uss-bonhomme-richard-from-1m-gallons-of-fuel
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fire-continues-rage-aboard-navy-ship-san-diego/story?id=71757147
There will be less direct interventions abroad, so the USN/MC can adjust to make do with less, esp. since US allies have those types of ships too.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4647
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Given the BS from Yankistani sources over the recent tribulations with the Kuznetsov (sinking of PD-50 & subsequent fire) it is pleasing to see a little karma hitting them in the teeth...
RIP USS Bonhomme Richard, I wonder if the USN will bother trying to repair her after this. It looks bad but maybe, like the K, the damage will be less than widely expected (IMHO however, this is the second day of the fire and I expect she may be a right-off).
RIP USS Bonhomme Richard, I wonder if the USN will bother trying to repair her after this. It looks bad but maybe, like the K, the damage will be less than widely expected (IMHO however, this is the second day of the fire and I expect she may be a right-off).
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owais.usmani- Posts : 1786
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Big_Gazza wrote:
RIP USS Bonhomme Richard, I wonder if the USN will bother trying to repair her after this. It looks bad but maybe, like the K, the damage will be less than widely expected (IMHO however, this is the second day of the fire and I expect she may be a right-off).
LMFS- Posts : 5102
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Just look how it is melting away 
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walle83- Posts : 967
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Well in pure number of vessels a singel Wasp isnt that a big deal for the us navy. Not a single Wasp has so far been retired and 2 America class has been added since 2014.
I gess they could even reactivate the two Tarawana they still have in reserve, the USS Nassau and the USS Peleliu. The Peleliu was placed in reserve just in 2015 and should be in a ok state.
I gess they could even reactivate the two Tarawana they still have in reserve, the USS Nassau and the USS Peleliu. The Peleliu was placed in reserve just in 2015 and should be in a ok state.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Ditto. But Trump may just say: to save $, deploy the rest of them less.Well in pure number of vessels a singel Wasp isnt that a big deal for the us navy. Not a single Wasp has so far been retired and 2 America class has been added since 2014. I guess they could even reactivate the two Tarawana they still have in reserve, the USS Nassau and the USS Peleliu. The Peleliu was placed in reserve just in 2015 and should be in a ok state.
https://ria.ru/20200714/1574333421.html
https://vz.ru/world/2020/7/14/1049787.print.html
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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https://www.russiadefence.net/t7140p825-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov-news-2#288187
The USN will either shape up or continue to decline. Too much wasteful spending, corruption, etc. all play a role in it.
https://news.usni.org/2020/07/14/navy-fighting-2-major-fires-on-uss-bonhomme-richard-as-battle-enters-third-day
https://gcaptain.com/fire-continues-to-burn-on-uss-bonhomme-richard/
The USN will either shape up or continue to decline. Too much wasteful spending, corruption, etc. all play a role in it.
https://news.usni.org/2020/07/14/navy-fighting-2-major-fires-on-uss-bonhomme-richard-as-battle-enters-third-day
https://gcaptain.com/fire-continues-to-burn-on-uss-bonhomme-richard/
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
Singular_Transform- Posts : 1032
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The amphibious assault ships and carriers has minor utility anyway.
They are nive for the show, but has next to 0 usage in real war.
They are nive for the show, but has next to 0 usage in real war.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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If it was true, China, Japan & Russia wouldn't be building them.
GarryB- Posts : 39028
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They are nive for the show, but has next to 0 usage in real war.
In a war that is an invasion of Venezuela it would be very useful, but against Russia/China not much use at all as it would be too vulnerable.
I would normally remove the posts regarding this US ship from this thread but I find it rather interesting as a contrast... when it was a Russian ship burning it was the end of the world and bad procedure and this sort of thing should never be allowed to happen, and why are Russians so useless when it comes to safety procedure and prevention of mistakes... but when it happens in China... they are making heaps so losing one isn't really a problem, and with the US the damn thing is going to be left to burn to the water line but it is all they can afford it, and they are all the navy is still very strong blah blah blah.
Now these were different situations on totally different ships, but the Russians and Chinese seem to have gotten their blazes under control...
Perhaps on the American thread about this fire we could discuss fire control methods and why they failed leading to the ship becoming a writeoff.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7951p300-us-navy-and-naval-aircraft-news
Big_Gazza likes this post
hoom- Posts : 2352
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- Post n°388
Given the BS from Yankistani sources over the recent tribulations with the Kuznetsov (sinking of PD-50 & subsequent fire) it is pleasing to see a little karma hitting them in the teeth...
hoom Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:46 am
The irony is quite delicious.
Also interesting that the Russians apparently managed to contain their fire to relatively small volume vs the much vaunted US DC has apparently allowed the whole ship to be gutted.
Note also relevant to K this ship visibly sitting low & listing vs K which was sitting high & even keel after the dry-dock issue.
Also interesting that the Russians apparently managed to contain their fire to relatively small volume vs the much vaunted US DC has apparently allowed the whole ship to be gutted.
Note also relevant to K this ship visibly sitting low & listing vs K which was sitting high & even keel after the dry-dock issue.
Hole- Posts : 10751
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The thing is now burning for three days. Two fires. "Should be extinguished in 24 hours" according to some Admiral.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QDQGYSAfJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiJZQcmNl_E
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34832/veteran-sailor-on-why-navy-ships-can-be-most-vulnerable-in-port-and-how-to-change-that
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/07/14/navy-reports-progress-fighting-fire-aboard-bonhomme-richard/
The amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard, which burned through the night while in port in San Diego, was at the tail end of two years of upgrades supporting the integration of the F-35B, according to Navy documents.
That means the Navy will now have fewer options to deploy the next-generation fighter in the Pacific. ..Experts said the loss of Bonhomme Richard, whether a total loss or just lost for extensive repairs, deals a significant blow to the Navy’s plans to have F-35Bs continually deployed in the Pacific. And with Monday’s announcement that the United States had formally rejected China’s claims about the South China Sea, any accompanying boost in naval presence could be slowed by the fire.
The Navy’s deployment model is based on having permanent forward presence in vital regions, such as the Indo-Pacific and the Middle East. To accomplish that, the service needs enough ships to support one forward on deployment, one in an elevated status of readiness to surge in an emergency, one in maintenance and one in pre-deployment workups.
In other words, in an ideal world the Navy would have at least four ships to have one of them always on deployment. But with longer overhauls, such as the F-35B upgrades, it might require five ships to make one forward.
“It’s a big problem, considering the F-35B is the Department of the Navy’s only fielded and deployable 5th Generation generation fighter.” said Bryan Clark, a retired submarine officer and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute “We will want those deployed most of the time.
“Only half of [our 10 amphibious assault ships] are able to carry F-35B and the Marines are looking to reduce their land-based squadrons. So the loss of Bonhomme Richard will impact the Navy’s ability to provide Combatant Commanders sea-based F-35s not subject to host-nation approval.”
“It has a huge impact,” said Jerry Hendrix, a retired Navy captain and analyst with Telemus Group. “Bonhomme Richard has been in this overhaul for two years getting these upgrades to operate F-35Bs. She has about eight more years of life left in the hull, and so she was a central cog in our Pacific operational deployment plan for the next eight-to-10 years.”
The amphibious assault ship Tripoli is slated to be commissioned this month but will have as much as two years of work ups ahead of it, Hendrix noted, adding the Bonhomme Richard was supposed to be back in the rotation after its overhaul by the end of this year.
“This is a big hit in the Navy’s deployment plan over the next 10 years. Obviously we can’t just wave a magic wand and create another one,” Hendrix said.
The Navy could either ask the remaining amphibious assault ships to make longer deployments or it could dip into the inactive reserve fleet and bring back a Tarawa-class LHA to back-fill the capacity.
Bryan McGrath, a retired destroyer skipper and consultant with The Ferrybridge Group, likewise agreed that the fire would deal a blow to the Navy’s deployment plans.
“Obviously first and foremost someone is going to have to take her commitments,” he said. “Secondly, it is going to impact the fleet introduction of the F-35B and what does this do to the timeline that the Navy and Marine Corp were on for the regularization of that aircraft going to sea on that ship?
The fire also has implications for an ongoing effort to more closely align the Navy and Marine Corps in an effort Marine Commandant Gen. David Berger calls “naval integration,” McGrath said.
“There is this larger question of navy and Marine Corps integration that I think may be somewhat slowed by this because of the F-35 issue.”
The damage to the Bonhomme Richard has been extensive from stem to stern, engulfing the well deck, the super structure and the living and working spaces up forward. The forward mast has collapsed onto the superstructure and Expeditionary Strike Group Three commander Rear Adm. Phillip Sobeck told reporters Monday temperatures inside the skin of the ship have reached 1,000 degrees, a point at which steel is losing significant structural strength.
Hendrix guessed that the heat and duration of the fire likely means the ship is lost.
“I don’t think she’s coming back, I think she’ll be struck. I don’t think you have this intensity of heat and fire in a hull and give it a thumbs up.
Lightning Carrier
The Navy has been using the Wasp-class amphibious assault ships, along with the follow-on America-class, to field a lighter, dedicated F-35 carrier, or “Lightning Carriers.”
But the idea of smaller carriers is one the Navy has been flirting with more recently. Last fall, the Navy packed 13 F-35Bs on the amphibious assault ship America. Then-Navy Secretary Spencer later said the ship could hold up to 20.
“I will tell you, we are augmenting the aircraft carrier with our ideas, such as this lightning carrier,” Spencer said at the Brookings Institution think tank. “Twenty F-35 Bravos on a large-deck amphib. My cost performance there is tremendous. Does it have the same punch? No, it doesn’t, but it does have a very interesting sting to it.”
The Wasp class, which is an older class of big-deck amphib, could likely pack about 15 F-35Bs if it were dedicated for the purpose, according to Clark, the Hudson Institute senior fellow.
The idea of a lighter carrier is also one that has intrigued Defense Secretary Mark Esper. In an interview with Defense News that coincided with the fiscal 21 budget rollout, Esper raised the possibility that lighter carriers were still on the agenda.
“There are various ways to do carriers,” Esper said. “So we can talk numbers or we can talk the sizes of carriers, right? There’s been discussion in the past about: Do you keep building big carriers, or do you go to smaller carriers, lightning carriers? Acting Secretary Modly and I have talked about that.
“I think this gets into the future fleet designs we look at. That will be one element that we look at.”
The Navy has shied away from lighter carriers for decades because, as expensive as the carriers are, the big supercarriers generate more sorties for less money than it would cost a comparable number of smaller carriers to generate.
But the utility of a smaller carrier that still has a mean bite was recently demonstrated when a COVID-19 outbreak on the carrier Theodore Roosevelt sidelined the flat top in Guam in the middle of its deployment. The Navy directed the America to the South China Sea to provide presence there to dissuade China from taking advantage of the Roosevelt’s misfortune.
That was a win for the idea of a smaller carrier, said Seth Cropsey, director of the Center for American Seapower at the Hudson Institute.
“The ability of the America to be on scene when the Roosevelt was not was a good thing,” he said. “Look I don’t think anyone is going to argue that it replaces a Ford-class carrier, but the idea of a more distributed force is a sensible one.
“I’m not saying that the Navy should stop building Ford-class carriers; I’m saying they should be including smaller carriers.”
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/07/13/the-bonhomme-richard-fire-deals-a-blow-to-the-navys-designs-in-the-indo-pacific/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiJZQcmNl_E
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34832/veteran-sailor-on-why-navy-ships-can-be-most-vulnerable-in-port-and-how-to-change-that
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/07/14/navy-reports-progress-fighting-fire-aboard-bonhomme-richard/
The amphibious assault ship Bonhomme Richard, which burned through the night while in port in San Diego, was at the tail end of two years of upgrades supporting the integration of the F-35B, according to Navy documents.
That means the Navy will now have fewer options to deploy the next-generation fighter in the Pacific. ..Experts said the loss of Bonhomme Richard, whether a total loss or just lost for extensive repairs, deals a significant blow to the Navy’s plans to have F-35Bs continually deployed in the Pacific. And with Monday’s announcement that the United States had formally rejected China’s claims about the South China Sea, any accompanying boost in naval presence could be slowed by the fire.
The Navy’s deployment model is based on having permanent forward presence in vital regions, such as the Indo-Pacific and the Middle East. To accomplish that, the service needs enough ships to support one forward on deployment, one in an elevated status of readiness to surge in an emergency, one in maintenance and one in pre-deployment workups.
In other words, in an ideal world the Navy would have at least four ships to have one of them always on deployment. But with longer overhauls, such as the F-35B upgrades, it might require five ships to make one forward.
“It’s a big problem, considering the F-35B is the Department of the Navy’s only fielded and deployable 5th Generation generation fighter.” said Bryan Clark, a retired submarine officer and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute “We will want those deployed most of the time.
“Only half of [our 10 amphibious assault ships] are able to carry F-35B and the Marines are looking to reduce their land-based squadrons. So the loss of Bonhomme Richard will impact the Navy’s ability to provide Combatant Commanders sea-based F-35s not subject to host-nation approval.”
“It has a huge impact,” said Jerry Hendrix, a retired Navy captain and analyst with Telemus Group. “Bonhomme Richard has been in this overhaul for two years getting these upgrades to operate F-35Bs. She has about eight more years of life left in the hull, and so she was a central cog in our Pacific operational deployment plan for the next eight-to-10 years.”
The amphibious assault ship Tripoli is slated to be commissioned this month but will have as much as two years of work ups ahead of it, Hendrix noted, adding the Bonhomme Richard was supposed to be back in the rotation after its overhaul by the end of this year.
“This is a big hit in the Navy’s deployment plan over the next 10 years. Obviously we can’t just wave a magic wand and create another one,” Hendrix said.
The Navy could either ask the remaining amphibious assault ships to make longer deployments or it could dip into the inactive reserve fleet and bring back a Tarawa-class LHA to back-fill the capacity.
Bryan McGrath, a retired destroyer skipper and consultant with The Ferrybridge Group, likewise agreed that the fire would deal a blow to the Navy’s deployment plans.
“Obviously first and foremost someone is going to have to take her commitments,” he said. “Secondly, it is going to impact the fleet introduction of the F-35B and what does this do to the timeline that the Navy and Marine Corp were on for the regularization of that aircraft going to sea on that ship?
The fire also has implications for an ongoing effort to more closely align the Navy and Marine Corps in an effort Marine Commandant Gen. David Berger calls “naval integration,” McGrath said.
“There is this larger question of navy and Marine Corps integration that I think may be somewhat slowed by this because of the F-35 issue.”
The damage to the Bonhomme Richard has been extensive from stem to stern, engulfing the well deck, the super structure and the living and working spaces up forward. The forward mast has collapsed onto the superstructure and Expeditionary Strike Group Three commander Rear Adm. Phillip Sobeck told reporters Monday temperatures inside the skin of the ship have reached 1,000 degrees, a point at which steel is losing significant structural strength.
Hendrix guessed that the heat and duration of the fire likely means the ship is lost.
“I don’t think she’s coming back, I think she’ll be struck. I don’t think you have this intensity of heat and fire in a hull and give it a thumbs up.
Lightning Carrier
The Navy has been using the Wasp-class amphibious assault ships, along with the follow-on America-class, to field a lighter, dedicated F-35 carrier, or “Lightning Carriers.”
But the idea of smaller carriers is one the Navy has been flirting with more recently. Last fall, the Navy packed 13 F-35Bs on the amphibious assault ship America. Then-Navy Secretary Spencer later said the ship could hold up to 20.
“I will tell you, we are augmenting the aircraft carrier with our ideas, such as this lightning carrier,” Spencer said at the Brookings Institution think tank. “Twenty F-35 Bravos on a large-deck amphib. My cost performance there is tremendous. Does it have the same punch? No, it doesn’t, but it does have a very interesting sting to it.”
The Wasp class, which is an older class of big-deck amphib, could likely pack about 15 F-35Bs if it were dedicated for the purpose, according to Clark, the Hudson Institute senior fellow.
The idea of a lighter carrier is also one that has intrigued Defense Secretary Mark Esper. In an interview with Defense News that coincided with the fiscal 21 budget rollout, Esper raised the possibility that lighter carriers were still on the agenda.
“There are various ways to do carriers,” Esper said. “So we can talk numbers or we can talk the sizes of carriers, right? There’s been discussion in the past about: Do you keep building big carriers, or do you go to smaller carriers, lightning carriers? Acting Secretary Modly and I have talked about that.
“I think this gets into the future fleet designs we look at. That will be one element that we look at.”
The Navy has shied away from lighter carriers for decades because, as expensive as the carriers are, the big supercarriers generate more sorties for less money than it would cost a comparable number of smaller carriers to generate.
But the utility of a smaller carrier that still has a mean bite was recently demonstrated when a COVID-19 outbreak on the carrier Theodore Roosevelt sidelined the flat top in Guam in the middle of its deployment. The Navy directed the America to the South China Sea to provide presence there to dissuade China from taking advantage of the Roosevelt’s misfortune.
That was a win for the idea of a smaller carrier, said Seth Cropsey, director of the Center for American Seapower at the Hudson Institute.
“The ability of the America to be on scene when the Roosevelt was not was a good thing,” he said. “Look I don’t think anyone is going to argue that it replaces a Ford-class carrier, but the idea of a more distributed force is a sensible one.
“I’m not saying that the Navy should stop building Ford-class carriers; I’m saying they should be including smaller carriers.”
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/07/13/the-bonhomme-richard-fire-deals-a-blow-to-the-navys-designs-in-the-indo-pacific/
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
Hole- Posts : 10751
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So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.
JohninMK- Posts : 14709
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Hole wrote:So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.
They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?
Hole- Posts : 10751
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JohninMK wrote:Hole wrote:So much to superior fire prevention/damage control on murican ships.
They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?
If the systems and training of the personel would be good they should be able to keep the fire in one section of the ship and not let it spread from stern to bow.
George1- Posts : 18324
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The universal landing ship LHA 7 Tripoli is part of the U.S. Navy
July 15, 2020 at the American shipbuilding company Ingalls Shipbuilding of Huntington Ingalls Industries Corporation in Pascagula (Mississippi), a modest ceremony of the introduction of the U.S. Navy at the end of testing the universal landing ship LHA 7 Tripoli - the second ship of the type America. The "lowered" level of the ceremony was officially explained by the coronavirus pandemic, but, obviously, it was primarily associated with the moral and political effect of the ongoing devastating fire on the universal landing ship (UDC) LHD 6 Bonhomme Richard in San Diego.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4088062.html
July 15, 2020 at the American shipbuilding company Ingalls Shipbuilding of Huntington Ingalls Industries Corporation in Pascagula (Mississippi), a modest ceremony of the introduction of the U.S. Navy at the end of testing the universal landing ship LHA 7 Tripoli - the second ship of the type America. The "lowered" level of the ceremony was officially explained by the coronavirus pandemic, but, obviously, it was primarily associated with the moral and political effect of the ongoing devastating fire on the universal landing ship (UDC) LHD 6 Bonhomme Richard in San Diego.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4088062.html
GarryB- Posts : 39028
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“I’m not saying that the Navy should stop building Ford-class carriers; I’m saying they should be including smaller carriers.”
What else is a Marine going to say... Smaller carriers obviously burn very well... why are they good again?
They have good systems but it would surely be generally acknowledged that it's not a good idea to have Halon flooding or other less severe fire suppression systems switched on when undergoing deep maintenance that included welding, brazing etc?
Yeah, but after the thing has been burning for three days you'd think they could do worse than turn on those halon systems... this is the American Navy... the one that tells everyone what to do an how to behave and act... their biggest worry is that the loss of this ship might make it harder to piss off the Chinese in waters close to China...
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-navy-fire/firefighters-put-out-flames-aboard-u-s-navy-ship-in-san-diego-vessels-future-unknown-idUKKCN24H3G9
Cheaper to reactivate & modify an old LHA/D.
Cheaper to reactivate & modify an old LHA/D.
GarryB- Posts : 39028
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Cheaper to reactivate & modify an old LHA/D.
Less effective in combat yet still a big juicy target with very little actual air defence...
Hole- Posts : 10751
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And poor fire protection.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
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Their group will have extra escorts, if need be; besides, most of the time it won't be too far from a CSG &/ land based aviation.
GarryB- Posts : 39028
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So when you add the cost of all these extra escorts these ships are going to need just to do their normal tasks... makes you think a bigger better armed ship would have been better...
Obviously no ship is invincible but if it can't look after itself it becomes a liability.
Obviously no ship is invincible but if it can't look after itself it becomes a liability.