Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation.

ATLASCUB wrote:All these new proposals and the continuing back and forth year after year after year only tell you one thing.... A new Russian carrier is at least a decade off.

Russia needs to focus at the NATO dogs cramming its borders. This includes the breakdown of the INF treaty and the START treaty.
Imperial marine punitive airforce platforms are a distinct N-th level priority. Russia's economy will be developing regardless of NATO
and military spending will give the GDP further stimulus. Tens years from now it will be better off and can engage luxury projects.

BTW, 10 years from now is only possible if the ship contract is signed today. I think 20 years from now is more realistic.

The US/Russia will warn them. The media may also have news of it.

Well Russia wont warn them... all they are doing is sailing past... why would they warn them?

And what is the US going to say to its fishing vessels... GTFO of there we are laying sea mines there shortly to start WWIII?

The media might mention the tension and situation the Russian ships are being sent to, but they are hardly going to announce that the US navy has broken all international rules and openly mined an international water way without declaration of war...

There r/were other mines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_mine

In the title of that link it says it is a gold mine that has both ice road and air links... doesn't that prove my point?

Gold mines don't produce thousands of tons of gold a week... so you could send the product out by truck or aircraft. Coal mines can produce thousands of tons of coal per day it is just not practical to take that out of the region by weather effected truck or aircraft.

they could get some CH-47s from Iran & their spares from others, if only for training/eval. purposes, or build their own from the designs I posted.

Doesn't need them and doesn't want them.

Only in calm seas. VERTREPs r being done even in heavy seas.

Amphibious aircraft can operate in a range of sea states, and most of the time sea states too rough for amphibious ops are generally also too rough to have a supply ship come along side and load with a crane.

Those helos have the range to perform COD missions from the shore.

Russia needs an aircraft carrier because it does not have military bases in every country around the world where they could base aircraft... most resupply for Russian vessels will be via Russian supply vessels.

they r mastering it faster than the Russians & r already approaching their level.

Says who? They haven't even managed to design and build their own naval fighter yet. We don't know what progress the Russians have made which makes your claim amusing at best.

At least they didn't create extra work for themselves from a sunken drydock & a falling crane.

No, they are too busy with their trade war with the US and occupation of Tibet and plans to take back Taiwan.

Some may be close to the real thing. I saw many drawings in old magazines & books of possible future Soviet aircraft from the Cold War- they were pretty close to what was later actually produced.

Depends on the artist, I remember a lot of US DoD drawings showing new Soviet equipment being exact copies of western equipment...

my point is that they could build them later as an alternative to fixed wings for CVNs, UDKs, etc.

Why spend a lot of money on an alternative that has worse performance and higher operational costs... spend that money to get real more practical designs working properly.

High speed helos makes sense because the technology and designs can be applied as upgrades to existing types... the Hind has been improved with wings and main and tail rotors and engines developed for the Havoc as an example.

Don't count chicks before they hatch: EMALS may not be successful.

Hahahahaha... a bit like saying man will never set foot on Mars... the first systems don't need to be perfect... the only aircraft on board they have to get airborne are the AWACS platforms and they already have Ka-35s as backup for that anyway.

Or they may think otherwise & found that years later, after loosing more planes, pilots, & crews than they anticipate.

Would not be any worse than the money and time wasted with the VSTOL programmes of the past. The knowledge gained in vectoring afterburning jet engine nozzles and automated ejection systems was probably useful but not much else. With EMALS there is plenty of useful technologies that need to be mastered involving large amounts of electrical current, control and transfer of power, plasma, and of course magnetism and superconductors, as well as all electric drive which they are also working on. All of which will be very useful in the full range of uses from land and sea and undersea vehicles to aircraft and also space craft.

When the PRC gets them (with IRPs- no need to carry lots of fuel), some may be based on Hainan &/ their SC Sea islands.
Russia could use hers off their Arctic/Kuril islands & perhaps Syria, & India hers off the Nicobars & the mainland. In fact, they'll do well in Tibet/Himalayas too, using less hangar space & fuel than their 4 engine AWACS & ASW planes, saving a lot of $ on shorter range missions.

Large fuel capacity is still important... with a catapult to help accelerate the aircraft the extra weight is actually a good thing as it provides momentum... it also means when refuelling mid flight you can take on more fuel and operate for longer without needing to refuel in flight too.

With a larger load of fuel on board an AWACS can also refuel fighters operating with it to extend their operational range too... if you are operating 400km away from your carrier all the aircraft around you are directing need to have the fuel to fly 400km to return to the carrier to land safely... with a lot of fuel on board your AWACS aircraft it could refuel aircraft operating with it with a little top up to get home safely... having such an aircraft operating over the Kuznetsov in Syria would have saved two aircraft... a Fulcrum and a Flanker... they could have been topped up and flown to a land base when it was realised they could not land on the carrier.

All these new proposals and the continuing back and forth year after year after year only tell you one thing.... A new Russian carrier is at least a decade off.

No. It tells you they are thinking about what their actual needs are and are not just going to blunder forward with something bigger and more expensive than the previous model like the US does. Stealth will fix everything...

Decade from decision at least two until contract plus several more years after that until construction starts

They are already talking about laying down a carrier in about 2025, which makes that statement already wrong...

I expect the UDK, which is a small carrier, will come sooner.

There was an article mentioning a couple of Mistral replacements being started in the next few years...

https://tass.com/defense/1065639

More important tasks r preventing more anti-Russian color revolutions & civil wars on Russian perimeter & separatism in Russia itself, as well as land transportation to tie all the time zones of the country better.

Russia needs to expand its access to the worlds countries outside of the west, and increase its trade with them, bypassing land and air trade routes that have to cross western controlled land and airspace... and by sea is the best way to do that.

Russia also needs to push back and support anti west colour revolutions of their own... start interfering in spain and ireland and the US, there are oppressed people all over the west wanting support to get a fair deal in their own countries... start playing the game with the same rules the west applies to itself... but be careful to only do this with western countries... the rest of the world can be treated with dignity and respect so they don't confuse you for being more of the same (ie the west) when it comes to international relations...

they'll warn their own; when they suddenly leave, others will follow.

They are fishermen... when they see someone else leave they wont leave too... they will steal their spot...

And again... what is Russia going to say to its fishermen?

We are on our way to a dispute in central or south america, things might get a bit hot... everyone stop earning a living and go home... I don't think they would say that and even if they did I don't think they would listen...

They won't need to reveal anything-just make something up- i.e. exercises, tests, etc.

So even if they got their way and all the civilian craft left the region and they filled the place with sea mines and the Russian carrier and several major Russian ships are sunk... WWIII and the remaining ships in that little group can stop and launch cruise missiles at the US of A because it would be nice and close.... but then they could also mine the Med so what is your point?

As long as America is prepared to start WWIII the Russian fleet is not going to be effective?

But the obvious question is how do you get everyone out of there without tipping off everyone that something is up... and when they realise what you are doing, what is really to stop them doing exactly the same to you... a passing roll on roll off ferry dropping mines through the persian gulf or the med or outside the main international port of rotterdam or new york or london... mines are cheap and easy to mass produce and you can booby trap them easily enough too.

there'll be all sorts of fake news & speculations, but the SVR/GRU will alert the VMF that something is up.

And what do you expect to happen then? The VMF sends out some minesweepers and finds lots of live current model US mines all over the place... defuse them and put new fuses in them and lay them in the Persian gulf or just the waters of the US coast as paybacks?  Who cares if anyone gets sunk... after all they will be American mines, made in the US of A.

There r many resources undeveloped besides coal in Yakutia & Chukotka that can only be commercially exploited with year-round railroads extended there; to build them, V/STOLs r needed before, during & after their construction, to speed it up by improving logistics/supply/trade/firefighting/disaster relief/passenger service & save lives.

Yeah because that is what V-22s do all day... build rail lines through the Sahara desert and other desolate places... except it is actually cheaper to go into Siberia and use local wood and build rail lines by using rail cars carrying the people and materials needed to build rail lines... land an aircraft like an Il-476 first with heavy machinery like graders first to clear out and build a proper all weather runway and then bring in more heavy machinery with bigger aircraft like An-124s and start preparing the ground from that end and of course at the other end of the rail line you can use normal railcars for people and vehicles and tracks while a mobile mill can make all the wooden components you will even need... you are in Siberia after all.

Helicopters are never used for building railways... they just are not efficient... you can use them to transport a group of people from anywhere to anywhere and small cargo loads, or individual trees in a selective logging operation but you don't use them to make roads or rails... or ports either.

If true, that may change.

Currently not trying to buy any. They tried tandem rotor design helos and didn't like them.. the Yakovlev design bureau made one from memory and it was useless... it lost in competition to the Mi-6 or something.

tandem-rotors r more stable in the air & those amphibians in the water; UNREPs r safer as they can move against the wind/waves for more stability with a set speed. A freak wave/squall can slam 1 ship against the other at anchorage, toppling cranes/cargo & killing people/causing fires & other damage. The USN, FN & RN done UNREPs for decades for a reason.

Coaxial rotor helos are just as stable and less effected by crosswinds, and several of their planned future high speed helicopter types are coaxials like the Kamov range of helos they already operate at sea.

most, but not all- emergency supplies of something they run out of can be flown to a closest country to be picked up by a deck based long range helo. The same with personnel transfers & medevacs.

With the current state of western sanctions and general hostility Russia can't rely on any country to cooperate, if it is emergency supplies a transport aircraft could fly direct to the carriers location and drop the supplies by parachute either onto the deck or to be picked up by SAR Ka-27... it would actually be faster.

A carrier related light transport aircraft should have better range and much better speed than any tandem helicopter or tiltrotor aircraft.

That may not be true:

They can't even make their own engines...

This is another paper aircraft and there is no evidence it is anywhere near operational... let alone its actual performance.

They had access to the plans for the F-35 and they can monitor reports and information about problems and issues with the F-35 so there is every chance they might actually make a better aircraft and avoid some issues and problems with the original design, but I wont be holding my breath.

They also have trainers that could be used as light fighters

There is a common thought around the place that jet trainers are currently so expensive that the only way you can justify buying them is to pretend they can also replace light fighter aircraft.

The problem there of course is that they are expensive for what they are so converting them into fighters makes a fairly weak fighter, that really isn't that cheap anyway. To make a current trainer useful as a fighter it needs new engines, new radar, new avionics suite, new self defence suite... you know... all the stuff that makes good fighters expensive.... and you end up with a small fighter that is not cheap that has short range and small payload because it was only supposed to be a trainer anyway...

They recently done a refit of CV-16 while testing/building 2 new CVs & so far managed to avoid embarrassing accidents.

And how would we know if they were having problems or not, their media seems geared to talking about success rather than defeat... it is very much modelled on western media you could say.

Didn't see those or they got smarter/fired by the time I saw the pics I'm referring to.

I remember T-80 drawings showing Abrams type vehicles, and of course the Tunguska, or ZSU-30-2 as it was known then looked exactly like Gepard but with single barrel 30mm cannon.

They had tandem rotor helos before, but not fixed wing AWACS for CATOBAR ops;

They had tandem rotor helos and rejected them because conventional rotor design models were better.

For the problem of fixed wing CATOBAR ops for AEW they developed the Yak-44, not any tiltrotor or tandem helicopter design.

But COD helos don't need high speed.

Doesn't matter. The extra speed is there if wanted but they can fly as slow or as fast as they want. COD fixed wing aircraft can fly further and faster and likely with a better payload capacity too.

I bet the CODs/ASW too; there was another 1

Ka-35 is the new designation for the upgraded Ka-31 AEW helo.

all that may take more time than they have before putting a CVN to sea.

What makes you think that?

Even if they layed down the keel tomorrow the ship would not be in the water for a good 8-10 years...

when land based, they can take less fuel & later get topped off mid-air, if need be.

They could do that at sea too.

bad idea- the turbulence from radome may not allow it. If something goes wrong u may lose a tanker/fighter instead of a more expensive AWACS + its entire crew.

Depends on the situation... and who says it will have a radome?

The new photonic radar designs sound like they can be surface mounted on an aircrafts skin... a nose mounted array, a tail mounted array, and an array down the each side of the fuselage or even wingtip pods...

dead link!

26 Jun, 23:08
Russia to start building 1st helicopter carrier in 2021, says source
There are plans to build the lead universal amphibious assault ship and deliver it to the customer under the state armament program through 2027
Vitaly Nevar/TASS

KUBINKA /Moscow Region, June 26. /TASS/. Russia plans to build two universal amphibious assault ships capable of carrying 15-20 helicopters under the state armament program through 2027, a source in the domestic defense industry told TASS on the sidelines of the Army-2019 international military and technical forum on Wednesday.

"In the coming months but no later than the end of the year, the Defense Ministry will complete developing technical specifications for a universal amphibious assault ship and send them to the United Shipbuilding Corporation. The state armament program through 2027 includes two universal amphibious assault ships. A preliminary design has been worked out. Technical design work will begin in 2020 and the construction of the lead ship will start in 2021," the source said, adding that the work’s chief contractors had not yet been determined.

There are plans to build the lead universal amphibious assault ship and deliver it to the customer under the state armament program through 2027 while the work on the first serial-produced vessel will be completed before the early 2030s, the source said.

"Although the technical specifications have not yet been formulated, it is possible to speak already now that universal amphibious assault ships will get a large dock chamber to house assault boats and will also be capable of carrying a large air group of helicopters of various designation, including 15-20 permanently based attack gunships," the source said.

Head of Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov earlier said that Russia needed to build its own helicopter carriers in the future for the prompt deployment of a large grouping of forces. Moreover, these helicopter carriers should not repeat France’s Mistral project.

Universal amphibious assault ships, also called helicopter carriers, are distinguished by their large displacement (20,000 tonnes and more) and can carry a large group of heavy helicopters of various designation (up to 16 helicopters aboard Mistral ships and more than 30 aboard US Wasp-class vessels), and also vertical take-off rotorcraft.

Universal amphibious assault ships can carry from several hundred to over one thousand marine infantry personnel, boats and other craft for landing the assault force and transport the armor. Universal amphibious assault ships normally feature a powerful combat control system and can act as a command and control vessel for a grouping of forces.

For that, they'll need overseas bases/artificial islands as the West still dominates/controls all the oceans except the Arctic.

During the cold war teh Soviets simply created artifical moorings out in the open water for Soviet ships to dock and change crews and refuel and resupply.

As mentioned, most of their trade is within Eurasia & they need to secure their perimeter 1st before venturing to W. & S. Hemispheres.

They had a lot of trade with Europe but that is diminished because of EU sanctions. They need to look to alternative markets and trade partners that wont sanction them and bully them the way the west does... there are actually plenty of countries that don't want to tell Russia how to treat its gays and don't expect Russia to tell them the same... trading with Russia would be a refreshing change from dealing with the west.

For ops in & around Syria, Venezuela & Cuba, they didn't fail so far w/o a CVN.

They don't need any navy at all, but they have one, so they might as well make it safer in open waters away from Russian air cover.

What can Argentina, Brazil, Australia & NZ offer to Russia in terms of trade Russia can't get from Asia & Africa? Coffee, lamb, beef, & kangaroo meat? Minerals?They now have better agriculture; Siberia, Arctic & the FE has all the periodic table of elements; exotic products that most can't even afford r not in high demand there.

I wouldn't bother with Australia and New Zealand for the moment... we are too far up Americas arse to hear anything anyone else says... eventually we can improve trade links. Central and South America really don't know what normal international trade is because America has not allowed it... giving them alternatives will both help them and help Russia, and of course in Africa there is plenty of wealth, both mineral, vegetable, and human wealth too. There are plenty of countries in Africa that the west has branded bad and wont deal with normally... this is a real opportunity for Russia and China to go in and trade and help them grow and develop in a more healthy and normal way...

They all got sat. comm./internet & can listen to each other- if the CG/VMF tells any of them to leave,

You haven't explained why either of those groups would order civilian vessels in the area to leave... and even if they did most are fishing boats, not nuclear cruisers operating at 30 Knots.

&/ they see things heating up, they will all return to port or go elsewhere, instead of risking their lives, boats, catch, & insurance rates.

It is a big ocean I rather doubt they would see the US mine layers or the Russian grouping heading through... and once it became common knowledge that the US was mining the areas where they fish they can forget about insurance anyway.

During high tensions, the VMF won't risk getting caught in a narrow strait- they remember the Tsushima disaster in the wider strait. Losing even capital ships r not the same as losing armies & cities; they r not worth starting WWIII that would kill 100s of Ms. Mines can be used to delay/slow ships down or close some areas to traffic. Subs & planes then can use LR AShMs against them. They may save time using the NSR but not ships, aircraft, & lives.

But the reverse is true too, the VMF have plenty of mine countermeasures vessels in service... more than NATO combined and are actually making a lot more, plus their new carriers and destroyers have mine countermeasures and anti sub capacity... plus western antiship missiles are no where near as lethal as current Russian anti ship missiles let alone the new ones they are in the process of introducing.

Any evidence of US forces mining the strait between Russia and Alaska and they can simply use tactical nukes to clear the way... nothing sets off a mine field like an underwater nuclear detonation... quick and easy...

They r accompanied with power/pipelines & other construction:

For things 20m or more above the ground they are useful because they are quicker than using scaffolding, but for roads and rails and indeed runways then they are not useful at all.

Not completely useless; the Mi-6 appeared 4 years later:

That is my definition of useless... they made a few but didn't come up with a real replacement till four years later... in other words they had every chance to fix it and make it work but in the end something else that was much better was made instead.

If it was a dead end concept, those designers wouldn't make fools of themselves. The West has the CH-53s but still keeps the CH-47s that can lift more, (even the CH-53K when flying hot/high over the mountains):

Yeah, but American helos have proven useless in afghanistan and they have had to resort to using a real helicopter at least two times to recover aircraft they would otherwise have had to leave there...

IMO, they may not be big enough for more demanding AWACS/COD roles. With pulling props their speed will be sufficient.

They don't have to be, they are fine for what they do... it makes sense to develop a new platform for AWACS/COD based on a more conventional aircraft using EMALS.

if the shutes don't open, the cargo is lost &/ causes damage on deck.

The VDV could manage their parachutes, they are pretty much world class experts.

In a storm, a diver lowered from a helo can die while attaching a hook to it.

Why would they deliver cargo during a storm. Why recover cargo during a storm. If they operate during storms then they just have to accept a level of death amongst their crews.

true, but having a common helo/tilt-rotor airframe with SAR/COD variants will save a lot of $.

You mean like the VSTOL model of the F-35 saves money too... the programme is costing 1.5 trillion dollars.

It only makes sense to use standardised airframes if that airframe is also suitable to the job... it actually works the other way around if they are not.

A plane can only spot & drop survival gear while a helo/tilt-rotor can however/land & lift them out of the water/ground.

We are talking about a carrier group that likely has a dozen rather massive ships in the group with all sorts of sensors and equipment... high speed small boats used for carrying small teams of special forces could be sent out to recover pilots or people in the water if needed too there are plenty of options available.

that's besides the point: they have them!

Most countries have jet trainers...

their own local fans would've spilled the beans by now;

Spilled what beans... there were lots of cases of Chinese engines bought by Russia having mechanical problems... logically speaking it would be fairly natural therefore to assume Chinese ships with the same engines probably had problems too... how many local fans posted info on that exactly?

It is not a rip at China... good reliable engines are hard to make even when you have some to copy... Russia thought the Chinese engines would be good so they bought some, but it turns out they need a lot of work to get them to be reliable... clearly mistakes were made during copying, likely in terms of the materials parts were made of and their durability.

Time and operational experiences would lead to clues as to which components need to be stronger or better made and over time the problems could be solved, but why would Russia waste time and money waiting for China to get that right, when they could use their own immature engines and do the same and get reliable Russian engines eventually.

u can't hide a disaster in China- even before Mao died in 1976, the West learned of famines & earthquakes there that killed Ms.

Simple satellite imagery showing missing houses that are not rebuilt or food crops damaged by weather or disease or insects will give indications of such things, but wont tell you if that aircraft they have built that looks like an F-35 is actually as stealthy as a real American F-35 or if it can even effectively use its weapons and systems in combat or not.

that was then; now new models can be as good, if not better in some applications.

Some calculations on paper or computer model might suggest that, but who is going to fund production on the suggestion that it might be an OK helo that fits in the middle of the current Russian helicopter range. Especially now that Russia and China are making a new middle weight heavy lift helo that is really in between the Mi-38 and Mi-26 performance range anyway.... a new tandem type would be expected to sit in there somewhere too which makes them rather less likely to be built or needed.

again, that was during the CW when the arms race was in full swing & every American system had its Soviet counterpart. Being so late, its development stopped with a mock up.

When funding was cut for the carrier that it was going to operate it, its funding stopped too, but AFAIK it was not cancelled as such.

They built the Buran but never used it.

They used it once in unmanned mode and it worked fine.

The VMF may never even get a CVN. Russia may have a regime change & go socialist again. Re-building it with better features will put naval buildup well "into the right".

A socialist change wouldn't effect the future of the VMF that much... if they are to expand in the future they need to do it by sea.

there rn't that many places outside of balmy Med. Sea to do it safely. China could do the same in the SC Sea but built permanent artificial islands there instead.

There aren't many places they actually need to do it.

still, that trade won't pay for CVNs.

If they don't have a world wide naval surface group then who is going to trade with little Russia... the US can just park an aircraft carrier off that countries shore and claim their leader is not an elected leader but is a dictator and try to overthrow that country after crushing it with economic sanctions.

If Russia can't defend its friends with sea power they wont end up having many friends.

they need it, but if it's used wisely, it won't need as much air cover as CVN would bring. A UDK group can use its helo/drone AWACS to ID & shot down/sink attackers just as well.

JUST AS WELL... hahahahahahahahahahahhaha... are you going to tell the PVO or can I tell them that all their MiG-31 and MiG-29/35 and Su-27/30/34/35/57 are just an expensive waste of time and what they really need is tiltrotors with AWACS and they will be fine...

Any real enemy air force would cut through such a defence like butter.

Most of their trade will be with China, as her middle class will be as big, if not bigger than the entire RF population.

The Chinese middle class seem to want American shit, not Russian. Besides only trading with each other would not be healthy for either state, they need to trade with the rest of the world and the rest of the world wants to trade with them.

The VMF may bankrupt Russia even more than it did the USSR if it gets more CVNs & escorts that the country can support.

So you keep claiming, yet even a 5 billion dollar CVN will take 10 years to build so spreading 5 billion dollars over 10 years is a tiny fraction of what NATO countries are going to be paying to keep their F-35s operating... not buy them or their over priced weapons... just operational costs.

even w/o being ordered, they'll leave in high tensions knowing the US will/may be waiting for them in the strait.

I really don't understand the scenario you are describing... are you suggesting WWIII has already started and the US and Russia is at war, so when the Russian fleet moves through the Bering Strait, then the US Navy might openly attack them?

Big whoop... with their current level of armament their might be problems but this future carrier group with 7K ton Gorshkov destroyers and 20K ton Gorshkov cruisers and a carrier plus other support vessels and subs then the US is going to have to mount a fairly full on enormous force to counter them there because they will have Backfire and Foxhound support launching Kinzhals and likely the air launched Zircons... even if the US had 5 carrier groups sitting there waiting in ambush it is going to be a Massacre and I really don't think it will be in favour of the US because they have no defence and their naval F-35s have very ordinary performance...

the Bering Strait isn't that big; it's a choke pint like Gibraltar, Bab El Mandeb, Tsushima & Malakka straits

You are quite right, but that also puts the entire region within range of Far East based Foxhounds with Kinzhals and Backfires with Zircons and Kh-32s... which is no where the US Navy wants to be.

a dozen B-52s/1Bs/P-3/8s + 1 SSGN from within Alaskan airspace/waters & launchers on the shore can saturate them with new LRAShMs - it's irrelevant what AShMs the VMF has in this case.

Russian missiles have multi role guidance and can just as easily target land based targets and aircraft from far east airfields could easily carry nuclear armed cruise missiles to take down airbases in Alaska... they will probably use the attack as an excuse to wipe out any ABM radar and missile locations too while they are at it because the next step will be SLBMs and ICBMs.

& then having to go through the radioactive cloud worse than USS Reagan got into during the Fukushima disaster, aircraft, armaments & decks, besides sickening the crew, killing tons of fish/crabs & contaminating 100s of miles of rich fishing grounds for years.

Given the choice of losing ships or clearing the way of mines I think the choice is pretty obvious.

The new ships are not just stealthy they are Chem/bio/nuke rated... all their old ships are designed to operate in an NBC environment too... not really a huge deal.

I never said they r; other things r best done by helos in remote areas even with railroads present. Trains take long time to come & they can't leave rails; other vehicles they may bring r also slow & may not be able to get too far in the taiga & mountains to inspect/repair el./pipelines, suppress fires, protect forests/wildlife, conduct surveys, do med. evacuations, deliver mail/supplies, etc.

They already have those helicopters and don't need any new designs except the new designs already designed... (ie Ansat, Ka-60/62, Mi-8 family, Mi-38 etc).

They didn't really need CH-46/47-like helos, but now their mil. doctrine/tactics changed & they may need them, along with tilt-rotors, esp. for the VDV/SOF/VMF/Marines/NG/FSB/MChS.

They didn't need new tandem designs because their conventional designs already did and do the job at hand... not really going to change IMHO.

It may last many days & they may need something/some1 in/out of there quickly.

Yeah... storms that prevent conventional amphibious and conventional fixed wing operations on carriers normally also preclude tilt rotors and helos operating too...

Many other current & new users will keep ordering them

Yeah, that is mainly because America is a spoilt little bitch that throws their toys if anyone buys weapons from someone else.

But OTH they did it with the Mi-8/17s; the Mi-24/35s r assault/attack flying BMPs. They r more successful in Afghanistan then US helos, & they didn't bankrupt them or any1 else.

The Mi-8 transport helo was the basis for the Mi-24 attack helo and also the Mi-14 naval helo... but they didn't try to make it do everything... they only adapted it to roles where its modifications made it suitable, they didn't try to force it on everything.

with large internal volume, tandem helos r like planes that can carry more people, cargo, sensors, avionics, weapons, survival/rescue gear, & fuel.

As I keep saying to you, that large internal volume creates a larger external volume, but with all the speed and range limitations of a helicopter. A fixed wing aircraft can have the volume advantages plus the flight speed and range of a small fixed wing transport aircraft...

not as fast & far as helos can.

They have helos too.

not all can be navalized for light attack role off a CV/N.

And how many countries actually have light trainers in the light attack role on aircraft carriers?

The Soviets and Russians haven't. Their only trainer ironically the opposite... it was a variant of the ground attack Su-25, but it was only a trainer and had no ground attack capacity at all.

it was a test flight, not a real world mission to orbit.

It was designed so it could operate completely automatically so for their first mission they flew it without a human crew.

they did expand already into Alaska, California & Hawaii, but had to sell or abandon them. Their Hadrian Wall r their borders & coast. I doubt they need to expand any farther than USSR border & perhaps a few more overseas bases (not colonies), at the max.

America has spent enormous efforts over the past decade or so trying to isolate Russia and limit its ability to find foreign partners... do you think that is by accident. Given the choice should Russia remain isolationist and inward looking and refuse to grow as a country?

They don't need to invade or occupy other countries, but when offering trade deals with countries they have no land or sea border with it would be critical that they can get their products to those countries and get those countries products to Russia, or where they need to go.

Just having a carrier is not enough... Argentina had a CV during the Falklands war.

Their resources r estimated to be worth ~$400T & they better defend what they already have.

If they don't find new trading partners those 400 trillion dollars in resources will go to increasing the wealth of the 1 or 2% in the west... what a terrible waste that would be for both the west and Russia and the rest of the world.

some of those fighters could be used on UDKs.

You are missing my point... if the Russian Navy doesn't need carriers with potent fighter interceptors then why does Russia need an air force?

Surely helicopters and some tiltrotors and so civilian aircraft with hundreds of AAMs could do the job...

I mean trade with those other countries u listed, not Russia.

That would be fine too, Russia is not the US... it doesn't demand exclusive trading rights with its trading partners...

It's a death spiral: too expensive to deploy them & not deploying while maintaining them isn't cheap either. 1-2 would be more than enough; $ & manpower saved can be better used on UDKs, nuclear icebreakers, other ships/subs, ekranoplans, & aircraft.

It could easily become one, like it has in the US, but I suspect Russians are just a bit too patriotic to be that stupid/selfish.

To be clear the Russian carriers are not for WWIII or to fight the US Navy or NATO navy... they are an instrument to support a surface group of Russian ships that will actually be doing the job at hand.

How very different the situation in Venezuela could have turned out if the US decided to invade... if Russia had an operational carrier and a few ships to operate with her... they could send them to the Venezuelan coast for last minute organised exercises... the US would never have invaded...

following your logic all fighters in RuAF should be MiG-31s

It is not my logic, it is his that states the Russian navy doesn't need air power at all... no fighters, no AWACS, no AEW... all they need to do is develop a Chinook copy and a V-22 copy and they will be fine.

Ground based air defence networks are greatly improved and made vastly more effective with aircraft... both with radars and missiles to intercept air threats.

no, only in the crisis period between US-RF. The VMF won't risk the Arctic/Bering strait transit were US/UK satellites, SSNs & bombers will have no problem finding & targeting a CBG. The straits along the NSR & the Bering Strait r narrower than the GIUK gap.

Even in a crisis period moving ships including aircraft carriers is not an act of war and even the fucking stupid american administration would not attack a Russian naval formation sailing in international waters... no matter their destination or purpose.

If they did try to attack them they have rather more to lose than Russia because for Russia its navy is largely expendable when it comes to national defence, but their new surface action groups are going to be very well armed and equipped and I have pity for any country thinking of messing with them.

An EMP burst will render a CBG useless- 1 SSBN can do it from the Gulf of Alaska, US West Coast/Hawaii.

Well it would render radar and radio communications useless for perhaps 30 minutes or so but Russian SAMS and systems have optical backups... that EMP pulse will also wipe out all the NORAD radars in Alaska and Canada rendering the US vulnerable to ICBM and SLBM attack.... they wont see it coming...

And lets face it, if the US set off an enormous EMP pulse over a Russian carrier group it is not to ask it to stop or turn back, it is with the intent to try to attack and sink it... the next step would be full nuclear strike on Russia, so Russias only choice would be to notify China that they are now going to obliterate the US and her allies... it was nice knowing you... suggest you launch an attack on local US forces because they are going to be launching their missiles soon and will likely launch at everyone including you.

it already changed: the VDV wants them.

Yeah, no one else in Russia uses BMD either... they are not widespread use vehicles, they are purpose build VDV equipment that no one else uses or needs.

A change of leadership and they might want hovercraft instead... when they find out how much it costs they might decide to spend their budget on something else.

The sea states can be high but the winds permissible to flight ops. I rode a typhoon Zeb 150 miles off Okinawa- with bif white crested waves & not so strong winds.

Using freak uncommon conditions to suggest a new technology is needed is dishonest... they have managed so far without and can continue to do so.

Many US aircraft were license produced or bought 2nd hand all over the world by those who could afford it, for many decades- don't tell me they were forced to do it or there was an alternative.

Of course politics has nothing to do with the US selling off its old crap and making allies buy it instead of better alternatives... all of south and central america love the F-5 because it is the best fighter in the world... the US is actively economically attacking countries for buying Russian weapons... they didn't do that in the past but military aid... which has to be spend on US products was dependent on you buying american crap whether it was suitable for your needs or not.

And if you crossed the us you are cut off... hense venezuela has F-16s that wont fly because there are no spare parts.

Here in New Zealand we still have Skyhawks we can't sell to anyone because the US says we can't... they still own them you know... even though we had to pay for them.

If we had bought F-16s then things would probably be fine but you can't be nice to a junkie if they are trying to throw your habit...

The USSR returned some land-leased planes after 1945.

The USSR was required to by law... anything that was destroyed in combat was written off, but anything not returned had to be paid for at fairly high prices for what was basically surplus unwanted crap. When the US carriers that came to collect the aircraft sailed out of Russian waters with the lend lease aircraft on deck when they hit international waters they pushed them all over the side into the water... they didn't want them but didn't want the Soviets to have them.

& their own oligarchy.

Mineral and energy extraction in Russia pays rather more tax than other industries to pay the people of Russia for their mineral resources... they benefit from the wealth beneath their feet rather more than we in the democratic west ever did.

Its AF at home & when deployed abroad can assist the VMF, defend the RF perimeter & allied airspace w/o CVNs.

The Russian navy is not talking about whether it needs aircraft carriers or not... that discussion is over... what they are talking about is what sort of carrier they need and they have clearly already decided they want a nuclear powered ship that will carry fixed wing AWACS aircraft on board... otherwise talk of cats would not be needed.

Planes & helos have their strong & weak points. Otherwise, they could've replaced all An-12/26/72s with Mi-26/38s.

They do, but cheaper and simpler makes more sense... tilt rotor aircraft are never going to replace conventional aircraft... they are slower and more expensive and have less capacity and range with all other things being equal. Tilt rotor aircraft are better than helos in terms of flight speed and range, but the new high speed helo designs will narrow that margin and make tiltrotors unnecessary freaks of the aviation industry... like autogyros...

tandem-rotor helos rn't that fast/long ranged but they offer higher internal volume & performance than helos with only 1 main rotor.

Bullshit... the Mi-26 is a vertical take off an landing C-130... the Chinook doesn't even come close.

So, they could spend less on them & still get better bang for the buck, even if the future tilt-rotors specs will give only marginal gains & planes will have very few places to land in the North, Siberia/FE.

When they talk about infrastructure expansion in the north and far east what they are talking about is air fields and rail lines and roads and ports... making tilt rotors rather less attractive because fixed wing aircraft get to different places much faster and much more efficiently and once there a conventional helo can do the rest.

None of western navies have potent interceptor on deck: F-18? Rafale? F-35?

So?

Western navies have a habit of working together and strangely currently outnumber the Russian navy in most regards, so do you think for their 200 odd Naval fighters for their 2 CVNs and the Kuznetsov they should go for MiG-21s or Su-57s?

Naval Air Arms are never cheap... the F-35 is the most expensive fighter ever... so while going for affordable they missed by an fing mile... but what should Russia do... any aircraft will be better than none and presumably in use they will be as much use as airborne radar and IRST as they will be for anything else.

Their whole purpose is to protect the surface fleet and to do so they don't need to have a 5,000km flight radius or ICBMs for air to air missiles... the ships they will be supporting will be armed to the teeth, so even if they just spot targets and pass that data back to the ships they are operating with it gives the ships plenty of time to start acting.

Any 500 missile attack on a group of ships would be tough to defend against, but if you have a dozen aircraft that detect them coming from 600km away and they can shoot down 6-7 missiles each, but also monitor the incoming missiles so ship based long range radar guided SAMs can start shooting down those incoming missiles well before they are any where near the radar horizon the chances of those ships surviving the encounter go up exponentially... especially if those fighters can engage the ships and aircraft carrying some of those 500 weapons and can shoot at them before they launch.

A MIG-29M2 moves at similar flight speeds to the much bigger Flanker and can carry the same air to air weapons to the same altitudes.

Having these fighters replaced with Chinooks and tilt rotors however makes the air defence much weaker.

so no you dont need the best of the best, you need good enough.

Well they need to scrap the Su-57 and Armata vehicle family because we don't want the best... we want good enough... except it seems they do want the best...

All of them can carry pre emptive strikes before the ships are attacked. That's nato strategy, they don't wait that the enemy has the ability to attack them, they destroy him before that.

Mig 35 has a range of 1000km. With fuel tanks and 260km range kh-35 its strike range is something like 1700km. Su30 is even greater.

Plus the fact that while the west might only have F-18s and F-35s and Rafales... they actually have quite a few of them on quite a few aircraft carriers... and that does not include their Typhoons and F-22s and of course F-15s and F-16s that are land based around the entire planet...

The thing is that ka-31 radar has a range of less than 300km which gives little time to react. They need a yak-44 on steroides.

The range of the Ka-31 is not that great, but the critical thing is that from a 4km operating altitude its radar horizon is much much better than any radar at or just above sea level. The huge radars on the ships will have enormous ranges against high flying targets but many threats fly low for that very reason... which makes the Ka-31 useful, but would make a real AWACS aircraft even more useful.

EMP are well known. Russian and US nuclear triades are protected against that. They aren't stupid to not protect them against that. A Farraday cage is realy easy to make in order to protect critical computers or bases.

EMP block transistors which can start again after some minutes depending on the power of the EMP. It has no effect on antennas. All the need to do is protect the computers inside missiles, inside firing units and inside bases. Pretty easy and probably done since long time ago.

Tests with nuclear blasts in the upper atmosphere show the ionisation of the atmosphere effects radar and radio communications for up to half an hour, which makes it a useful precursor to an attack.

Apparently Russia is going in a proper direction with their amphibious assault ships and aircraft carrier plans.
No converted civilian ships, but proper warships, with the modified 11711 that will be something between a san Giorgio class (if low end) and a Rotterdam class (upper hand), the helicopter carriers that will be proper aviation cruisers or helicopter destroyers (and may have nuclear propulsion), and the nuclear carrier that will probably be a similar concept to the soviet ulianovsk, but with modern technologies.

They were talking about a unified hull design for heavy ships... perhaps a unified design for cruisers and helicopter carriers?

I never implied "no fighters"; & stressed more capable tandem/tilt-rotors than Chinooks a V-22s.

They don't need them... the Ka-27 and its replacement will do everything they need for ship and carrier use.

A decent AWACS platform is what they need, not some half arse tilt rotor piece of crap.

There's a reason the USN CVN stays out of the Strait of Hormuz right now.

Cowardice? The US Navy doesn't know the meaning of a fair fight... it loves taking on speed boats and Airbuses though...

low yield nukes used over the Bering Sea won't do it. Also, the US could ask JMSDF for their more quiet SSKs to sneak on them for torpedo attacks.

Low yield nukes wont to bugger all, you need a 10 Megaton range weapon to get the effect you want on the Russian ships and such a thing would be very damaging to all of Alaska and Japan too.

I doubt Japan wants their subs sunk for no real practical reason.

Transporting more people & supplies using tandem/tiltrotor hybrids of An-12/26 & Mi-17/38 faster then helos will save lives & shorten wars.

What are you smoking? There are no tilt rotor or tandem rotor hybrids of anything in Russia and there certainly wont be any of those cold war dinosaurs.

The new high speed helos look interesting but the Il-276 will be much faster than any model An-12 or upgrade... and the same could be said for the Il-112 and Il-114.

The RF Marine Infantry is the maritime counterpart of VDV.

It certainly is, but they don't use BMD vehicles either...

Cold & stormy conditions r a constant factor in & around Russian waters; the climate change will bring more storms there & in all other oceans.

You mean like the heavy fog they get in London all the time?

[quote]the Egyptians kicked out all Soviet advisers & switched to Western planes after realizing that they depended on Soviet engine maintenance support, which restricted their entire AF ops- so it goes both ways. [/qutoe]

Of course the US is totally hands off and Egypt completely supports their own vehicles aircraft and equipment from the US... totally...

at the cost of property rights & other freedoms.

What property rights and freedoms?

Their legal system allows for rule through the laws made by the ruling elite (who sends their $ & kids to the West to where they themselves can flee when the going gets tough), not rule by the laws made by lawmakers & the society at large.

Actually I agree their laws are probably totally fucked up, because most of them were made with the help of America... that is where they get that fucked up law about presidents only being allowed to serve two consecutive terms... I don't know of any other country with such laws except the US... I guess it is so the corruption is spread and one party doesn't stay in charge for too long... remember political parties are like babies nappies... need to be changed regularly and for the same reasons.

they can keep talking & designing all they want, but whether they will be able to afford it to make it happen is up in the air.

That will be part of the planning process.

....BTW this is hilarious coming from a person from a country where a politician and current president says elect me again and we will cure cancer....

the same can be said about helos & planes; yet the slower Mi-26 can land & TO where the An-12 & other fixed wings can only crash land.

Your problem is that you think therefore the proper solution is a tilt rotor or tandem Mi-26 to try to turn the Mi-26 into an An-12.

I am telling you the better solution is simply to use the Mi-26 to move the load from where it needs to be lifted vertically to the nearest place the Il-276 can operate and transfer it to the much faster aircraft and get the benefit of the advantages of both types of aircraft.

speed isn't the main thing; on the plus side, they can self deploy on short notice & start their job quickly; high speed helos with 1 main/coaxial rotor(s) won't be able to carry as much cargo as large tandem/tilt/quad-rotor helos.

If tiltrotors and tandems are so wonderful where are they all?

There is only the Chinook and the V-22 that I am aware of and no great mass of customers ranging up to buy them.

Meanwhile Mi-26s and Mi-17s are out there doing the job.

If they were so wonderful why are they relatively rare?

Tandem-rotor helos will do well in Russia's & Central Asian mountains which r not as high as the Indian Himalayas.

Mi-26s can carry twice that weight... when the Indians lose some Chinooks up there they will most likely hire Mi-26s to recover them.

true; pl. pay attention to my posts: I never said that any future Russian tandem-rotor helos should have CH-47 specs.

blah blah blah... read my posts... they already have helicopters better than Chinook and super stallion, they don't need to make copies of American helicopters or tilt rotor aircraft. They already have a programme with China to make heavy lift helos... if China wanted a tandem or tiltrotor then why are they working with Russia on them?

This thread is about the Russian carrier programmes and future aircraft... they sure as hell wont have a 42 ton payload helicopter on any of their carriers... there is no need... they have landing boats for that shit and there is no room for aircraft that big anyway.

The North, Siberia & the FE will never have enough well maintained & prepared long airstrips needed to make them totally useless.

Most major settlements will justify a proper air strip and smaller communities already get by with An-2 and upgrades and Mi-17s.

I didn't imply swapping fighters for them! what r u smoking?

It is your idea that Russian tandem and tilt rotor aircraft could replace AWACS designs and make EMALS redundant, and that all current aircraft used in siberia could be replaced with such aircraft too... it will save on airfields... helicopter pads are cheaper to make and maintain that airstrips remember...

Sounds like you think Russia can't afford a CVN and should have something like Mistral with Ka-52 and Chinookski...

what about UDKs? The USN uses CH-46/53s & V-22s, not UH-60s to land Marines/SOFs ashore & behind enemy lines.

Currently the troop transport helo for the navy is the Ka-29, and its replacement is being developed... that is not a tandem or a tilt rotor...

what's ur definition of decent AWACS? E-2 Service ceiling: 34,700 ft

The E-2 is the only aircraft you actually mentioned with the radar and electronics on it to do the job... add that weight and drag to those other two choices and their performance will be seriously degraded... it is the 21st C... Russia should aim higher, not lower.

Making their new AWACS platform a tandem helo or a tilt rotor is an unnecessary step backwards and likely not enough of an improvement over the Ka-31 they already have for the job.

no, it's prudence. U can't hide a CVN even in the middle of the Gulf. It's like a box canyon in Arizona- 1 way in, 1 way out. In the 1700s & 1800s, if u r not killed & scalped entering it, u well could be while there or trying to exit it.

But they are the all powerful US Navy, surely all cower before them and they wont hide from a fight... they can defeat two countries at a time in two different wars in two different places... we are told...

or they could take out Russian navigation satellites or jam/alter their signals- w/o them, their AWs won't easily find a CVN to recover on.

Hahaha... the Russians can probably already do that to US satellites... and even when they don't there are cargo ships to navigate around... they don't track their own CVNs using navigation satellites...

Detonate a few mini nukes underwater & their subs r ether sunk or so damaged to become useless- it will take to replace them (they too could be wiped out); a CVN is then so vulnerable to SSN/Ks that it'll have to pull in port & stay there.

Are you kidding... if the US starts detonating nuclear weapons to damage or sink Russian subs do you not think they might decide to return the favour... no western sub would be safe... which kinda pisses all over that numbers advantage you have going there... how stupid can you get?

the Bushido code is still with them. If his master orders so, a samurai would kill his own mother & sister. The JMSDF needs real combat experience they didn't have since 1945. Losing an older SSK may be worth it, at least to their admirals.

Of course... that explains why Desert Storm attacks were led by Japanese forces... they insisted on being in the front line... hell they might even sink their own SSK just to make the other SSKs pay attention during training...

If the V-22 is a hybrid of C-130 & CH-53/46, Russia can have a hybrid of An-12/26 & Mi-6/26/38, i.e. a tilt-rotor that would leave the V-22 in the dust.

The main problem is that they don't want that... the V-22 has nothing like the payload performance of either of those two aircraft... the only advantage it has over the Super Stallion is speed and the difference is not really that big.

With new high speed helo technology why waste time replicating tilt rotor technology?

as if the speed of cargo planes is so important vs. range, volume & payload...

You claimed it was urgent, that makes speed important.

but the helos they do use, & in the future they'll have common airframes.

No they don't. The VDV use Mils, the Russian naval infantry use Kamovs. Before the conflict in Georgia they didn't even train to work together.

the army there owns Egypt, but the US de-facto owns the President General Pharaoh Sisi, with Israel & it's lobby in the US having the last word most of the time.

So which is it? Egypt has sovereign control of its military equipment choices or the US has the say?

ask journalists, activists, Khodorkovsky & other tycoons who fled Russia.

Oh, fuck off, that criminal scum stole from the Russian people are are adored in the west because they wanted only the worst for the people of Russia.

Vagina Riot is a classic example of your patriotic Russian activists oppressed by evil Putin... I am sure if they masturbated in St Pauls Cathedral with dead chickens in London they would be treated rather worse than the Russian authorities treated them...

One Russian political activist who set fire to the door of the FSB in Moscow was freed an immediately fled to France... where he set fire to a door of a major bank in protest... and guess what... they put him in jail too but he said conditions in France are worse than in Russia in jail... imagine that...

that will require 2 airfields, 2 aircraft & 2 crews, plus 2x support personnel; by the time the load is transferred between them, the weather & other conditions may change & time/lives/$ will be lost. Thus IMO, a somewhat slower tandem/tilt rotor of the same payload is more feasible- "the slower u go, farther way u'll get", as the old Russian saying goes.

Having airfields and aircraft is a GOOD thing, not a problem. Weather conditions seem to change to suit your scenario... if someone is having a heart attack and the weather closes in and there is no doctor they die. A tilt rotor wont fly in weather a helicopter wont fly in.

Your opinion doesn't matter when there are no tandem helos or tilt rotor options... they don't need them.

The amount of money they would need to invest to develop them would be big, they are already investing in new helos with China and new high speed helos and when they are available tandem and tilt rotor aircraft wont offer any speed or range advantage they will just cost money and offer nothing useful.

they r not mature yet, just like ekranoplans & SSTs.

With no one developing them they wont get mature.

those who do, buy them in large batches, so it's azero sum game of sorts.

Would you mind checking for me then... which countries are buying enormous numbers of Chinooks and V-22s that are also operating Mi-26 and Mi-38 helicopters...

I think you will find countries operating those two Mils or about to really wont be interested in Chinooks and V-22s because they already have aircraft to do those jobs already...

Il-76/8s r doing their job in RF & China but the IL-476/8s & Y-20s will supersede them;

Il-76 and Il-78 are old aircraft and are being replaced by new upgraded versions... just like the Mi-17 and Mi-26 will eventually be up engined and eventually replaced by newer models.

that won't bankrupt them; they'll save more by operating more CH-47s than the Mi-26s.

You can claim anything you like, but I would wager large American helos cost more to operate than large Russian ones.

China too chose to develop a smaller 15T payload helo instead of license producing/copying the Mi-26 monster.

Indeed China doesn't have light armour forces like the VDV does that can be carried by helo or light transport planes... they will be focused on MRAPs and such rubbish.

u didn't get it: they'll make better helicopters/tilt-rotors than the Americans have.

They already have helicopters better than American ones...

they may have plans to do it later with Russia or w/o her; 1st they need to master large helo design/production.

But surely if they want tandems or tilt rotors then they need to work with American companies rather than Russian ones...

true, but if they can design it, surely a smaller 1 for naval use can be designed as well that will still outperform the CH-47s & V-22s.

The Mi-38 could probably already do that.

as those huge areas get more development, new aircraft will be needed to serve them; they can't be upgrading the An-12/24/26s, Yak-40s & Mi-17s forever.

Hello.... is there any one there?

There are no plans to upgrade the An-12 or the An-24 or An-26, they are being replaced by the Il-276, Il-114, and Il-112. The Yak-40 will likely be replaced by the MS-21, and the Mi-17 will be replaced with the Mi-38...