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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:13 pm

    1000km+260km !== 1700 km lol1 lol1 lol1 MiG 35 perhaps not but new deck fighter will have likely airborne hypesonic missiles with (as already "leaked") range ~1,500 kms

    1000km range empty + 260km of the kh-35 + fuel tanks.

    With kh-59mk2 it's even more.

    Hypersonic missile with 1500km range will be huge and used from tupolevs. Not deck fighter, even less likely a small one like a mig-35.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:19 pm

    Isos wrote:
    1000km+260km !== 1700 km  lol1  lol1  lol1 MiG 35 perhaps not but new deck fighter will have likely airborne hypesonic missiles with (as already "leaked") range ~1,500 kms

    1000km range empty + 260km of the kh-35 + fuel tanks.

    With kh-59mk2 it's even more.

    Hypersonic missile with 1500km range will be huge and used from tupolevs. Not deck fighter, even less likely a small one like a mig-35.

    with length less then 5m and weight around 1,500kg why not? payload is 6,500kg.
    Approaching US CSG to 300km is a suicide mission for fighter pilot
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:54 am

    outnumber? Russian fighters will be always outnumbered the whole RuAF is to have 700 fighters as US Navy aviation has 1000 fighters. BTW there is no way 200 Russian fighters will be deck based. Currently there is 23 MiGs and 18 Su-33 (?) of which 14 was on deck in Syria.

    And considering that most of the time these aircraft will be outnumbered, don't you think it makes sense to make them the best planes they can make, or is it more important to just make them small and cheap... of course having said that even the land based Su-57 seems to be one of the cheapest modern fighters you could buy...

    Two CVNs with 100 aircraft each plus Kuznetsov, plus land based training and testing aircraft as well.

    Not all 200 would be on the carriers and not all carriers would be at sea at one time, but 60 fighters on each of the two nuclear powered carriers and another 30 odd on the K, plus another 50 or so at the two land based carrier simulation facilities in case extra fighters are needed...

    They could easily be a mix of Su-57 and MiG-35 based designs...


    Whether Su-57 will be deck based is not decided yet, as not decided how large/how many CVNs will be in service. IMHO currently MiG-35 would be best option but in second half 2030s not anymore.

    Well with further upgrades either aircraft should be able to do a passable job, but the Su-57 will have more growth potential, but then a non stealthy version should be able to carry more weapons and stores and be cheaper to operate.

    precisely! But , then you dont need cable interceptor but small fighter is good enough to defend ships what twas to be proven

    But a bigger aircraft can fly further and for longer and carry bigger sensors that can also see further and include equipment smaller aircraft don't carry like L band wing mounted AESA radar...

    76 ordered Su-57 vs 700 fighters im the whole RuAF makes it like 10%. So 90 is good enough right? 20,000 tanks (with storag eones?) and how many T-14 is ordered? because T-72B3M is good enough

    76 Su-57 ordered so far, there is no way to tell what the final production number will be especially when potential naval orders can be added.

    The CFE required Russia to get rid of most of their tanks down to a level of 6,000 in its european region. The CFE agreement is not in effect because the other members refuse to sign it but Russia met the numbers requirement for that agreement, what they didn't meet were demands to withdraw their (peacekeeping) soldiers from Abkhazia and South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh...

    They are going to have four vehicle families each of which will have a member that equates to a tank, but then they will also be making enormous numbers of Armata vehicles... think of all the different types of vehicles in a division... the numbers of other vehicles dwarf the number of actual tanks in any div whether it is a motor rifle div or a tank div... so how many armata tanks do you think they will actually need?

    Approaching US CSG to 300km is a suicide mission for fighter pilot

    With AESA radar and other sensors a US CSG could be detected from rather greater distances than that... the target information passed back to the ships to launch long range anti ship missiles in enormous numbers while the fighters observe the results and deal with any missiles or aircraft coming the other way, both via detection and actual missile self defence.

    Just as importantly a Kh-31 with a scramjet motor offering twice or three times the flight speed, using a similar amount of fuel... well a 600kg Kh-31 moving at about 650m/s to a range of 240km... so that means engine burning for about 6 minutes... so moving at say 2.2km/s for about 5 minutes perhaps, you are looking at 650km range fairly easily... and you could easily triple the weight of the weapon to further improve range performance...
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    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 Empty Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

    Post  hoom Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:01 am

    https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%817/
    For the first time, the Neva Design Bureau will present the promising aircraft carrier Lamantin at the International Navy Salon 2019.
    ...
    Displacement "Lamantina" - 80-90 thousand tons, clarified in response to the question of the publication in the Nevsky PKB. No other details were reported at the enterprise
    ...
    The Ninth International Naval Salon will be held in St. Petersburg from July 10 to 14. In the first three days, from 10 to 12 July, the event is open to professionals and members of foreign delegations, and on July 13 and 14, to a mass audience.

    Edit: this is a flyer for the 44Kton 'light CV'
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 04-7653837-mtsav-s-gtu
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:13 pm

    That's the shtorm KM from last year designed for export. Nothing new.
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    Post  hoom Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:42 pm

    Yes its that one from last year but I think the stats page is new.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:21 pm

    ..and they have clearly decided they want a new carrier with more capacity than the Kuznetsov in the 70K ton weight range.
    The Type 002 CV is 85K tonnes:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_002_aircraft_carrier

    The Type 003 CVN will be 107,5K tons, possibly up to 110K tons:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_003_aircraft_carrier

    IMO, it will be a waste of $ to build a 70K ton CVN.
    They want helicopter carriers too but that is for a separate purpose. ..to support Russian naval surface groups... they are there to protect Russian ships in foreign waters from enemy air attack.
    large UDKs can combine LHA missions with CV missions- it's not like their ships r w/o adequate defensive armaments & need to rely only on air cover when outside their land based aviation.
    No, they wont. Otherwise there would be no point is developing catapult systems, which they are clearly doing.
    they developed many other things before that failed & got cancelled, so it's faulty reasoning.
    The ships use the satellites for navigation and communication, the satellites can't locate the ships... that is not their function.
    other ocean surveillance sats can locate ships. The SOSUS will also detect their noises, adding in pinpointing their course, speed, & location. Their E-3 AWACS, B-52s, & MQ-4C UAVs can also find them in the Arctic & certainly in the Chukchi Sea, not to mention the Bearing Strait/Sea.
    The radar has a range of more than 250 miles (375.5 kilometers).
    https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104504/e-3-sentry-awacs/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress#B-52_and_maritime_operations

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_MQ-4C_Triton#Design
    most of the countries of Asia would not like Japan taking a more militaristic turn...
    they could care less what other Asians feel; the don't trust each other & most hate each other's guts.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:09 am

    IMO, it will be a waste of $ to build a 70K ton CVN.

    What would be a waste would be them thinking the biggest heaviest carrier wins and therefore wait to see how big Chinese carriers are and make theirs bigger for bragging rights on the internet.

    They have determined what they want... why would they build something they don't need?

    large UDKs can combine LHA missions with CV missions- it's not like their ships r w/o adequate defensive armaments & need to rely only on air cover when outside their land based aviation.

    The Russian Navy is like the Russian Army in that it does not expect the support or protection of the Russian Air Force. That is not to say they would not benefit from cooperation, but they have their own air defence systems and weapons.

    With that being said the purpose of helicopter carriers is landing troops and disaster relief... not air defence of surface vessels. That is what they want CVNs for.

    they developed many other things before that failed & got cancelled, so it's faulty reasoning.

    Like VSTOL fighters. They realised the performance was never going to be better than cheaper lighter simpler less fragile more conventional aircraft, and now they are developing in a different way from mini carriers with little VSTOL fighters.

    But in their defence the Hermes class mini carriers no longer exist in the British fleet either because of their limited performance... their new carriers are a similar weight to the Kuznetsov...

    other ocean surveillance sats can locate ships. The SOSUS will also detect their noises, adding in pinpointing their course, speed, & location.

    They might also detect thousands of decoys and drones... and SOSUS is vulnerable to direct attack... in the case of a serious war.

    Their E-3 AWACS, B-52s, & MQ-4C UAVs can also find them in the Arctic & certainly in the Chukchi Sea, not to mention the Bearing Strait/Sea.
    The radar has a range of more than 250 miles (375.5 kilometers).

    Yeah, radar range less than effective range of late model S-400 naval SAMs being developed for the Redut system... and also shorter range than the S-500 system to be used on large naval vessels too.

    they could care less what other Asians feel; the don't trust each other & most hate each other's guts.

    Most don't trust each other (why should they be any different from Europeans and Americans), but they can unite against the Japanese rather quickly.
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    Post  George1 Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:56 pm

    The brand new project of the medium aircraft carrier from Krylov State Research Center. #IMDS2019

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:00 pm

    Finally !!!!!!!! Project 11430E Lamantin (Manatee) nuclear-powered aircraft carrier


    @RALee85
    According to Nevskoye, it would have a service life of 50 years; be able to carry 60 aircraft, including fighters, helicopters, and AEW&C; 10 UAVs, 2 electromagnetic catapults, 4 arresting gears, and 1600-2000 tons of ammunition/missiles. 3/

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_h_kx10Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_h_el10Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_h9vg10
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:18 pm

    Isos wrote:Finally !!!!!!!! Project 11430E Lamantin (Manatee) nuclear-powered aircraft carrier


    @RALee85
    According to Nevskoye, it would have a service life of 50 years; be able to carry 60 aircraft, including fighters, helicopters, and AEW&C; 10 UAVs, 2 electromagnetic catapults, 4 arresting gears, and 1600-2000 tons of ammunition/missiles. 3/
    It is just a model, but those aew&c aircrafts remind me a lot the yak-44 Very Happy
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:26 pm

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    36m
    In an interview today, the Krylov Center's Pavel Filippov said they have now developed a much smaller gas turbine-powered aircraft carrier, only displacing around 40k tons that would cost 200 billion rubles. He says it could be launched within 5 years. 9/
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:23 pm

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:26 pm

    Isos wrote:Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    36m
    In an interview today, the Krylov Center's Pavel Filippov said they have now developed a much smaller gas turbine-powered aircraft carrier, only displacing around 40k tons that would cost 200 billion rubles. He says it could be launched within 5 years. 9/


    This one?

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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:26 pm

    Shtorm-KM 40 000 tonnes:

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_cimg10

    Lamantin 80-90 000 tonnes :

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_h_el11


    But still small compare to Shtorm 100 000 tonnes :

    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_ifs110


    Last edited by Isos on Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:30 pm

    Yes Papadragon. Pretty expensive in my opinion.


    Lamantin seems to have 6 redut on each side for a total of 96 missiles for defence with at least 4 pantsir on the forward and simalar number in the back.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:44 pm


    If that thing is really 40k conventional powered and with that many aircraft then they should definitely go with that one

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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:47 pm

    But there is no real hangar inside the ship. Only a small one for repair. That would destroy the aircraft, specially the expensive ram paint and coating of su57 making it expebsive to use. 

    Conventional power means more refueling and no awacs.
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:03 pm

    Isos wrote:But there is no real hangar inside the ship. Only a small one for repair. That would destroy the aircraft, specially the expensive ram paint and coating of su57 making it expebsive to use. 
    ...


    Well that's a dumb idea if there ever was one

    They should stick with LHDs

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    Post  Isos Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:10 pm

    Well they can use this light shtorm as a helicopter carrier and when needed load the migs.  Very Happy
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    Post  George1 Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:43 pm

    "There will be, of course, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier but not in the short-term perspective," the Navy chief said.

    https://tass.com/defense/1067923
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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:12 am

    Thats a rework of Ulyanovsk model.
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    Basing it off Ulyanovsk isn't a bad thing, it was a fully developed design in construction at the end of USSR so if they actually have the plans still it should be a good basis for a new carrier.

    -------

    https://www.russiadefence.net/viewtopic.php?t=8410
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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:10 am

    Some more from IMDS http://bastion-karpenko.ru/lamantin-npkb/
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_01
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_02
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_03
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 LAMANTIN_MVMS-2019_04

    Confirming its Ulyanovsk based is the Project code 11430E vs Ulyanovsk 1143.7
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:43 am

    It is just a model, but those aew&c aircrafts remind me a lot the yak-44

    Bare in mind that I remember seeing Soviet carrier models from the 1970s that had MiG-23s on them because they really didn't want to reveal that they had MiG-29s and Su-27s in development at that time.

    This model looks like a Yak-44 but that could change too... they might develop new radar arrays that don't need to be carried like that but still give a 360 degree field of regard that could be built in to the aircraft structure and electronically scanned instead of manually rotated to detect targets...

    This one?

    No obvious funnels on there for GT engines...

    Nuke propulsion does not only mean compact and powerful energy source, but it means unlimited endurance for the basics of sailing around, and it leaves more space on board for aviation fuel and ammo which is the main endurance and persistence limiter for a carrier.

    Seems pretty clear they want helicopter carriers first, and regarding new aircraft carriers they already have an aircraft carrier but a new CVN will add much better AWACS support.

    I wonder if they might consider a biplane based on the An-2 but with a much more powerful engine and scaled up a bit with folding wing structures... AWACS aircraft don't need to be fast and large wing areas means low speed takeoff and landing speeds... it would just be a question of how high it can operate at...
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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:42 am

    Ooh, just noticed something on this pic
    Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. - Page 38 D_ici610

    There was that quote about 'innovative deck layout for simultaneous launch & recovery' and look we have a CVA-01 style 'Alaskan Taxiway' outboard of the island.
    Its a bit weird in that they have to then pass over/around the forward elevator but the point is they actually went for that solution.

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