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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:48 pm

    "24 Pantsir-S combat vehicles, have been fielded".

    Shoigu about 2020

    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/64684

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    medo
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    Post  medo Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:40 pm

    dino00 wrote:"24 Pantsir-S combat vehicles, have been fielded".

    Shoigu about 2020

    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/64684

    24 Pantsir-S is 4 batteries with 6 combat vehicles. VKS also receive 4 regiments of S-400, so every S-400 regiment got 1 Pantsir-S battery for protection. 4 S-400 regiments is 64 missile launchers and 8 radar completes, 1 per battalion. Together it is 88 missile launchers for VKS in 2020. S-350 was delivere to VKS air defense academy.

    Add to that air defense complexes delivered to ground forces and Russian Army receive quite a lot of air defense this year.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:03 pm

    Russian air defense missile systems "Pantsir-S" shot down 47 Turkish drones Bayraktar TB2 in Libya

    Russian air defense missile systems "Pantsir-S" destroyed 25% of all Turkish-built Bayraktar TB2 drones.

    According to data provided by the Arab news agency Al-Masdar News, since the beginning of this year, Pantsir-S air defense systems have destroyed at least 47 Turkish Bayraktar TB2 attack drones in Libya. This number is 25% of all built Turkish drones, while about 30 more Bayraktar TB2 UAVs were destroyed in Siri during the active confrontation between the SAA and the Turkish army, which indicates that Turkish UAVs have no real advantage over Russian weapons.

    “During the active phase of the conflict, the LNA units discovered and exploited a huge vulnerability in the defense of the PNU forces, namely their inability to provide air cover. When the LNA fighters approached Tripoli, the PNU forces were forced to turn to Turkey for help. Ankara reacted quickly and promptly provided the PNU with Bayraktar TB2 unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), as well as Turkish military operators. The media loyal to Turkey and the PNU used this to declare a Turkish drone 'triumph' over Russian weapons, citing the destruction of a number of Pantsir systems at Al-Watia airbase as evidence , " reports Al-Masdar News. ...

    Nevertheless, 9 Pantsir-S complexes were lost on the territory of Libya, which was more likely due to the extremely active actions of the Turkish side, however, according to the Arab publication, the losses of the Turkish Bayraktar are much more significant.

    “The Turkish drones really managed to disable a significant number of Russian-made systems: in May this year, in just four days, up to nine Shells were destroyed. However, this number is more evidence of the intensity of the collisions than the shortcomings of the air defense system. According to some reports, the number of Bayraktars destroyed in 2020 is 47. Most of the Turkish UAVs were shot down - by "Shells" in the areas of Abu Greir, Sirt and Bani Walid, which the PNU and the media associated with Turkey are reluctant to mention, "the publication emphasizes.

    Russian designers admit that vulnerabilities were indeed discovered in the Pantsir-S air defense missile system, however, they will be fixed and the complex will again become lethal for drones, aircraft and helicopters, as well as enemy cruise missiles.

    https://avia.pro/news/rossiyskie-zrpk-pancir-s-sbili-v-livii-47-tureckih-dronov-bayraktar-tb2?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

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    Backman
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Post  Backman Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:17 am

    The Americans have smuggled out an intact Pantsir 1 out of Libya. It was lost in the fighting there.

    The Drive posted an article about it. Surprisingly objective article considering.

    Russia is aware and says it's not a concern. Because the US had access to it from the UAE anyway.

    It's still a little win for them. Hopefully Russia will return the favor. That's how these things usually go.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:08 am

    Pantsir is exported everywhere. They don't really care about US getting their hands on them. UAE have allowed them to test it long time ago IMO. And we saw they still are effective.
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    Post  Rasisuki Nebia Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:31 am

    It's an Export version, so Russia was aware of this scenario when they exported their systems to these incompetent ME regimes , doubt they can find anything of critical importance in that anyway.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:43 am

    The biggest threat is that now they have their hands on a decent air defence system they might up their game... I mean what else do they have that is even nearly comparable?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:32 am

    They got a damaged UAE pantsir that was being under the fire of a turkish drone in its hangar.

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Pantsi10
    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:49 pm

    St. Petersburg will close the mobile anti-aircraft dome

    A new regiment equipped with Pantsir-S complexes will appear in the northwest of Russia

    The Leningrad Region and St. Petersburg will be reliably protected from cruise missiles and drones. A unique mobile air defense regiment was created in the 6th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense. The new military unit is fully armed with Pantsir-S anti-aircraft missile and cannon systems. Units can move into a given area in a matter of hours and reliably cover it from air strikes. "Armor" will cope not only with traditional airplanes and helicopters, but also with unmanned aerial vehicles, as well as with cruise missiles. According to experts, the formation of the regiment is an asymmetric response to the strengthening of NATO in the Baltic States - in particular, to the deployment of attack drones and long-range air-launched missiles there.
    High mobility and compactness

    The formation of the unit was completed at the end of last year, sources in the defense department told Izvestia. It is subordinate to the 6th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense of the Western Military District and will become its mobile reserve, constantly ready to advance to the threatened direction on its own or with the help of aviation.

    With the help of modified Russian air defense missile systems, missile interceptors will be protected

    Regiments equipped with "Armor" are a new phenomenon for Russian air defense. The high mobility and compactness of the wheeled chassis make it possible to quickly transfer them to targets that are expected to be hit by the enemy. As Izvestia previously reported, the Ministry of Defense decided to include such a unit in each army of the Air Force and Air Defense.

    The first experimental mobile regiment equipped with "Shells" was created as part of the 1st Army of the Special Purpose Air Defense and Missile Defense near Moscow at the end of 2018. The following year, it was reported that he was conducting the first practice shooting at the Ashuluk range in the Astrakhan region. The head of the anti-aircraft missile forces of the 14th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense of the Central Military District, Colonel Gennady Shlag, also announced plans to form a similar unit in the Urals.

    According to the Ministry of Defense, by the end of 2020, the troops had already received more than 200 Pantsir-S anti-aircraft missile and gun systems (ZRPK). All of them are directed to the VKS. Previously, they were distributed one division at a time per S-400 Triumph regiment to cover long-range systems from air and ground threats. Separate units with ZRPK were not formed.

    - St. Petersburg is the second most important city in Russia, located close to the border. There are many important military and economic facilities there, ”the military expert Vasily Kashin told Izvestia. “And a modern air defense system that allows intercepting cruise missiles and drones is urgently needed there. Suffice it to recall the atomic energy enterprises. Serious protection is needed there. "Shell" with intelligence: the complex will be able to repel attacks without an operator. The new automated control system for anti-aircraft systems itself chooses the optimal battle tactics.

    Tensions have risen recently. associated with the expansion of NATO, takes place in the Baltic direction, the specialist noted.

    - The countries - partners of the alliance are getting stronger. For example, Sweden, which is not formally a member of the bloc, but closely cooperates with it and has recently sharply increased its military budget, explained Vasily Kashin. - The military infrastructure is coming closer to our borders, its build-up. The United States is building facilities in Norway, Poland and other Eastern European countries. We must take this into account and take measures for our own defense.
    Western gain

    The North-West and North directions must also be strengthened because the trajectories of ballistic missiles pass through the Arctic, ex-Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia Sergei Ordzhonikidze told Izvestia. He noted that a difficult situation has been developing in the Baltic region recently.

    “The forces of Poland, Germany and other European countries are based in the Baltic,” noted Sergei Ordzhonikidze. “Let's not forget that it is not the United States that is opposing us, but NATO forces. The bloc's military contingents are stationed near the Russian borders. If you add up their potential, you see a tremendous superiority. What, it would seem, to do near our borders the Americans, the British, the Germans? Of course, these are not millions of armies, as it was before the First World War. But if there are military men from non-neighboring countries at your borders, this naturally causes tension. And not only in army circles, but also in society.
    Controlled shield: automated system to cover western Russia
    It will include fighters, anti-aircraft missile systems and radar

    In this region, in recent years, Poland has taken a course of rapidly increasing its air defense capabilities. In 2020, the country's authorities announced the signing of documents for the purchase of 32 F-35A fighters from the United States. The life cycle contract will cost $ 4.6 billion. The start of deliveries is scheduled for 2024. Now the country's Air Force is equipped with three dozen MiG-29s and fifty light F-16s received from the United States, as well as a small number of Su-22 shock units.

    The US State Department has already announced that the receipt of fifth generation fighters will be a "quantum leap" for Poland in combat capabilities. They will have to replace obsolete Soviet-era aircraft. High-precision long-range weapons continue to be purchased for them.

    Earlier, Poland ordered a batch of modern AGM-158 air-launched cruise missiles from the United States to equip F-16 fighters. Depending on the modification, the range of the ammunition ranges from 370 to 1000 km, which allows keeping at gunpoint not only the Kaliningrad region, but also the north-west of Russia.
    "Bukovaya" alley: a new anti-aircraft brigade is being formed in the south of the country
    The mobile air defense connection will receive the latest medium-range missile systems

    The presence of aircraft of the North Atlantic Alliance also increased in the Baltic States. In 2014, a second airbase was opened there to accommodate the aircraft of the NATO Baltic air patrol mission. In these states, which do not have their own aviation, taking into account rotation, a squadron of one of the bloc's countries is constantly located. It is this unit that most often appears in the news about the interception of Russian aircraft over the Baltic Sea.

    Parts of the 6th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense of the Western Military District are located on the territory of 26 subjects of the Central and Northwestern Federal Districts of our country. Its planes and helicopters are based at 11 aerodromes. The formation includes two air defense divisions.

    The army's area of ​​responsibility includes St. Petersburg and the Leningrad Region, as well as distant approaches to Moscow. If necessary, it can provide military assistance to Belarus, with which Russia signed an agreement on the Unified Regional Air Defense System.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:38 pm

    In this region, in recent years, Poland has taken a course of rapidly increasing its air defense capabilities. In 2020, the country's authorities announced the signing of documents for the purchase of 32 F-35A fighters from the United States. The life cycle contract will cost $ 4.6 billion. The start of deliveries is scheduled for 2024. Now the country's Air Force is equipped with three dozen MiG-29s and fifty light F-16s received from the United States, as well as a small number of Su-22 shock units.

    The US State Department has already announced that the receipt of fifth generation fighters will be a "quantum leap" for Poland in combat capabilities. They will have to replace obsolete Soviet-era aircraft. High-precision long-range weapons continue to be purchased for them.

    Hahaha... so they spend billions of dollars on new F-35s which will cost them an arm and a leg to operate and maintain and the first thing their US allies say is not thank you for buying our product, or good luck and hope these systems make you feel safer...

    They say you have to get rid of the old Soviet shit before you are a real ally.

    Russia does not need to put Pantsir systems there... they should be putting Iskanders there with tactical nuke warheads...

    Don't deal with the threats standoff weapons... deal with the threat.

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    Finty
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty The Air Force Secretly Acquired a New Russian Missile System

    Post  Finty Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:18 pm

    Courtesy of Popular Mechanics...

    Popular Mechanics wrote:
    The U.S. Air Force scooped up a Russian-made surface-to-air missile system in June 2020, flying it out of Libya in a C-17 transport.
    Libyan government forces captured the Pantsir S-1 weapon system and turned it over to the Americans.
    Pantsir is a truck-mounted, low-altitude air defense system used in Syria, Libya, and other war zones.
    Last summer, a secretive U.S. military flight to Libya spirited away one of Russia’s most modern air defense weapon systems. The U.S. Air Force flew the Pantsir S-1 surface-to-air missile system, which Libyan government forces captured, out of the country on a military transport flight for parts unknown.

    The acquisition of a Pantsir, designed to defend against U.S. and NATO aircraft, is a windfall to the U.S. intelligence community.

    According to The Times, the secret mission to Libya took place in June 2020. The Pantsir, which the United Arab Emirates bought from Russia and gave to the Libyan government, had been abandoned and then captured by a local militia. Government forces eventually got the system back and transferred the system to a base hosting Turkish military forces.

    From there, Over Defense explains, the Palantir was shipped to Zuwara air base. Then, a U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III transport flew into the airport, picked up the truck-mounted system, and flew it north to Ramstein Air Base in Germany. That's when the trail went cold.

    The Pantsir S-1 is one of Russia’s first post-Cold War, low-level air-defense systems. The system consists of 12 57E6 short-range, radar- and electro-optically-guided surface-to-air missiles with a maximum range of 11 miles. The weapons load is rounded out with a pair of 30-millimeter, radar-directed autocannons. The entire system sits on the bed of a 8x8 truck chassis.

    The Pantsir is meant to provide air defense to headquarters, supply units, air bases, and other important sites from threats including low-level fixed wing aircraft, helicopters, drones, and even cruise missiles.

    While Pantsir has been widely exported, Russian military forces still use it, making it a system U.S. and NATO forces could face in wartime. U.S. forces have reportedly gained access to Pantsirs in UAE military service during joint exercises, but the Libyan system is the first one the U.S. military and intelligence community get to keep.

    The weapon may likely end up at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, the home of the U.S. Air Force’s National Air and Space Intelligence Center, which maintains a Foreign Material Exploitation center for the express purpose of studying captured, stolen, or otherwise-acquired foreign weapon systems.

    The system will likely be dismantled and rebuilt, and the knowledge of how Pantsir engages enemy aircraft will help protect U.S. and allied airplanes in the future.

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:39 pm

    If they really think that then they are dumb as sh...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:46 pm

    Pictures were showed and the pantsir they took was dammaged. Radar half destroyed, vehicle burned. And it was UAE export version.

    They will learn very little. Nothing more than what they could have learned for Syrian and lybian pantsir with ELINT systems when they were used in live fire.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:41 am

    The system will likely be dismantled and rebuilt, and the knowledge of how Pantsir engages enemy aircraft will help protect U.S. and allied airplanes in the future.

    What they will learn is to stay out of its engagement envelope... and also how to make a decent short range SAM that is cheap and effective against a range of threats... something they lack themselves..... but of course they don't copy... Rolling Eyes
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:29 am

    They ought to be careful. Belenko's (press S to spit) defection with the Mig-25 gave us the excellent MiG-31. If anything excuses such as these are what the Russian SAM designers need to keep churning out even better products despite the significant overmatch their current lineups have over the competition.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:10 am

    Exactly... although times have changed...

    When that pilot handed the west the Soviet interceptor they were already working on the MiG-31, but his betrayal led to serious upgrades of the aircraft and its missile in the form of the MiG-25PD and the upgraded R-40TD and R-40RD missiles, while the MiG-31 programme got rather more support and funding.

    These days they seem to be prepared to spend the extra money on upgrades and are not afraid of improving systems like they used to.

    The Americans will learn a lot about how to make a decent SAM system that is cheap but effective... which is something they are not very good at... their Army is the poor second cousin when it comes to air defence so they get modified Sidewinder missiles and these days modified AMRAAM missiles for SAMs... which is pretty ordinary...

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:34 am

    They already have S2, SM and SA variants that are all created recently.

    S1 was from the 90s. The one they got is from the 00s, the very first build for UAE.

    Even the S1 build today must be different with modern electronics.

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:55 pm

    Pantsir-SM's new intercepting missiles can reliably engage and defeat targets from 40km distance:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7159p175-russian-defence-against-drone-swarms#314686

    Also...

    Pro-West/NATO media: Pantsir is terrible against drones!!!!1!!1!!

    NATO think tanks/intelligence: Pantsir is an excellent platform to defeat and defend against drones.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7159p175-russian-defence-against-drone-swarms#314689

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:54 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Pantsir-SM's new intercepting missiles can reliably engage and defeat targets from 40km distance:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7159p175-russian-defence-against-drone-swarms#314686

    Also...

    Pro-West/NATO media: Pantsir is terrible against drones!!!!1!!1!!

    NATO think tanks/intelligence: Pantsir is an excellent platform to defeat and defend against drones.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7159p175-russian-defence-against-drone-swarms#314689

    Borrowed this from a twitter user who rebuked a Turkish propagandist cocksucker:

    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Eve24tpXYAAXtRO?format=jpg&name=medium

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    Post  franco Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:26 pm

    American military commander named the number of Bayraktars destroyed by the Russian Shell in Libya

    In the spring-summer of 2020, Turkish media enthusiastically described the destruction of "dozens" of Pantsir-C1 air defense missile systems in Libya. However, the American military commander Jeff Jaworski found out the true state of affairs and named both the number of irretrievably lost air defense missile systems and the number of Turkish Bayraktar TB2 reconnaissance drones destroyed by a Russian-made air defense system.

    According to a journalist from the United States, he conducted a thorough investigation, including using information from the Pentagon. As a result, he found that Ankara greatly exaggerated its successes and spoke extremely modestly, and even sparingly, about its losses. But an impartial journalist calculated that the Turks destroyed 9 units of these air defense missile systems, which were under the control of Arab operators.

    In Libya, Pantsir-C1 personnel acted more efficiently than in Syria, they already knew the tactics of Bayraktar attacks

    - the meticulous journalist drew attention.

    According to him, 47 units of Bayraktar TB2 were shot down in Libya by "Shells", and now these UAVs no longer seem so invincible. The American also studied the financial side of the issue. 9 air defense missile systems cost $ 118 million, and 47 UAVs - $ 245 million.

    We remind you that another civil war in Libya began in the spring of 2014. On the one side of the confrontation is the country's official parliament (sits in the east in Benghazi) and its Libyan National Army, led by Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, and on the other, the Libyan National Accord Government (sits in the west in Tripoli), consisting of Islamists and supported by the UN and Turkey ...

    https://pll4mi3fskkynekzvxxr6u4ery--topcor-ru.translate.goog/18972-amerikanskij-voenkor-nazval-chislo-bajraktarov-unichtozhennyh-rossijskim-pancirem-v-livii.html

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:15 pm

    franco wrote:American military commander named the number of Bayraktars destroyed by the Russian Shell in Libya

    In the spring-summer of 2020, Turkish media enthusiastically described the destruction of "dozens" of Pantsir-C1 air defense missile systems in Libya. However, the American military commander Jeff Jaworski found out the true state of affairs and named both the number of irretrievably lost air defense missile systems and the number of Turkish Bayraktar TB2 reconnaissance drones destroyed by a Russian-made air defense system.

    According to a journalist from the United States, he conducted a thorough investigation, including using information from the Pentagon. As a result, he found that Ankara greatly exaggerated its successes and spoke extremely modestly, and even sparingly, about its losses. But an impartial journalist calculated that the Turks destroyed 9 units of these air defense missile systems, which were under the control of Arab operators.

    In Libya, Pantsir-C1 personnel acted more efficiently than in Syria, they already knew the tactics of Bayraktar attacks

    - the meticulous journalist drew attention.

    According to him, 47 units of Bayraktar TB2 were shot down in Libya by "Shells", and now these UAVs no longer seem so invincible. The American also studied the financial side of the issue. 9 air defense missile systems cost $ 118 million, and 47 UAVs - $ 245 million.

    We remind you that another civil war in Libya began in the spring of 2014. On the one side of the confrontation is the country's official parliament (sits in the east in Benghazi) and its Libyan National Army, led by Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, and on the other, the Libyan National Accord Government (sits in the west in Tripoli), consisting of Islamists and supported by the UN and Turkey ...

    https://pll4mi3fskkynekzvxxr6u4ery--topcor-ru.translate.goog/18972-amerikanskij-voenkor-nazval-chislo-bajraktarov-unichtozhennyh-rossijskim-pancirem-v-livii.html

    Turdogan supporters scurrying back in to the darkness as we speak! lol1
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Post  Daniel_Admassu Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:30 pm

    franco wrote:American military commander named the number of Bayraktars destroyed by the Russian Shell in Libya


    Good to know the system performed well enough to down 47 of those drones, but a loss of 9 systems is still too much. Is anything clear of the circumstances of the battle? There could have been a swarm or persistent attack until they expended their ammunition. It is also possible that there was human incompetence either at the planning or combat level so at least some of them could have been engaged while they were deactivated.
    If indeed it was a performance issue, one can hope that the S2 iteration has ironed out the bugs.
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Post  Isos Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:41 pm

    Well keeping a defensive position means loosing stuff to attacks. No matter how good the systems are.

    If they used the su-24M and mig-29s to attack the bases from where the TB2 operated they wouldn't have lost any pantsir.

    Russians are focusing too much on their defensive systems and not enough on attacking. They are stick with the idea of creating defensive bubbles when they should create AD that can hold untill attacking weapons attack enemy systems.

    They need more advanced attacking systems. The more you destroy enemy stuff the less your defensive weapons will be needed.

    Advantage of TB2 is that they choose when to attack and where. Pantsir on the opposite need to be 24/7 on alert. Workload is huge when you're on defensive. Attacking weapons like su-24 will destroy more in 1 or 2 hours by attacking the enemy base where TB2 are than a pantsir in 1 week.
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Post  Hole Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:13 pm


    In Russia the Pantsir is one of many air defence systems. NATO would loose more then 50 drones until one could even reach a Pantsir system. And the answer to such an attack would be a instant strike of an Iskander/Kaliber/Kinzhal/Tsirkon missile or some rockets from a Smerch/Tornado-S system.

    Also I doubt that 9 Pantsirs were destroyed by drones or air strikes. Most of the "destroyed" systems were left by retreating soldiers.
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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

    Post  LMFS Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:17 pm

    Isos wrote:Well keeping a defensive position means loosing stuff to attacks. No matter how good the systems are.

    If they used the su-24M and mig-29s to attack the bases from where the TB2 operated they wouldn't have lost any pantsir.

    Russians are focusing too much on their defensive systems and not enough on attacking. They are stick with the idea of creating defensive bubbles when they should create AD that can hold untill attacking weapons attack enemy systems.

    They need more advanced attacking systems. The more you destroy enemy stuff the less your defensive weapons will be needed.

    Advantage of TB2 is that they choose when to attack and where. Pantsir on the opposite need to be 24/7 on alert. Workload is huge when you're on defensive. Attacking weapons like su-24 will destroy more in 1 or 2 hours by attacking the enemy base where TB2 are than a pantsir in 1 week.

    You are spot on in the first part of your post, and totally wrong in the second. Russian A2/AD and all those stories are BULLSHIT. I posted some days ago a serious document where they lay very clear that they are not planing about hiding in their holes until NATO decides to stop beating them but actually about laying waste of the attackers infrastructure. These guys fought and won WWII, do you think they are suckers in terms of warfare??

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    Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2 - Page 12 Empty Re: Pantsir missile/gun AD system Thread: #2

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