Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+26
Kiko
Mir
ALAMO
Arrow
owais.usmani
George1
AlfaT8
Sujoy
kvs
magnumcromagnon
dino00
miketheterrible
Big_Gazza
LMFS
Hole
max steel
PapaDragon
jhelb
Mindstorm
GunshipDemocracy
Isos
GarryB
franco
Viktor
flamming_python
Austin
30 posters

    Russian ASAT development

    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2318
    Points : 2478
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Sujoy Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:06 pm

    dino00 wrote:Probably just the final test of Nudol.
    Possible. That aside, S-500 and probably S-550 both have A-SAT capability. So maybe one of the missile from these missile complex was test fired.

    Like I said before, Russia probably tested an A-SAT keeping enemy FOBS or space plane like X-37 in mind.

    flamming_python likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39187
    Points : 39685
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:34 am

    The western over reaction to any other state testing anti satellite weapons solves several problems... first the stupid western public read about the western complaints but wont read much about complaints by other countries when the US does exactly the same thing.

    It also means if any US test goes wrong and debris does become a problem then they can say they had to do it because the Russians/Chinese/Iranians/North Koreans are doing it and the US can't be behind in technology.

    What they ignore is that Russia was happy to sign agreements banning weapons in space and the US refused and are working on their own systems.

    The fact that they are working on their own  systems means at some stage they are going to have to test them so by going apeshit over Russian tests they can then explain their own actions by saying they did it first... which of course they didn't... the US has been pollution earth orbit for quite some time. same with the atmosphere and water...

    Part of being able to use anti satellite weapons is also to make sure the target you destroy does not damage critical satellites of your own and the added number of objects will be tracked to give warnings to satellite that can be moved to avoid interactions in orbit.

    Would be interesting to see if they could launch something that cleaned up some of the debris or reduced the fragments further to make them less dangerous...

    flamming_python likes this post

    avatar
    Autodestruct


    Posts : 148
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2021-10-04

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Russian ASAT development

    Post  Autodestruct Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:08 am

    I wouldn't say that the reaction from the US and others is just posturing or overreaction. The difference between this recent test and what the US Navy did back in 08 is significant. The US lowered the altitude of the target in that test to ~250km, and so the debris fully burned up in the atmosphere within a couple years.

    What I've found on the Tselina satellites indicates that the target altitude was likely quite a bit higher. The satellite's orbit would have decayed some since it ceased to function, but if TASS ( https://tass.com/science/1362325 ) is correct, not that much and the intercept happened somewhere around 450-460km in altitude. The Russians may be right in that they prepared the intercept so that the ISS and satellites aren't threatened. But that debris could be up there for many years, rendering potential orbits unusable for further development - economic or military. These kinds of tests do have an impact.

    dino00 and Daniel_Admassu like this post

    Big_Gazza and Broski dislike this post

    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2318
    Points : 2478
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Sujoy Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:40 am

    GarryB wrote:What they ignore is that Russia was happy to sign agreements banning weapons in space and the US refused and are working on their own systems.
    I realize I have been talking about the technical aspect of this test, however there probably is also a political message embedded. Maybe Kremlin is sending out a message to the U.S that A-SAT is a serious matter and the U.S should re consider its decision to pull out from treaties that ban such tests.

    GarryB wrote:Would be interesting to see if they could launch something that cleaned up some of the debris or reduced the fragments further to make them less dangerous...
    How will Russia clean up the debris?
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10848
    Points : 10826
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Hole Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:33 pm

    The orbit of the american satellite was lowered because the ASAT system used can´t hit anything that flies higher.

    The-thing-next-door likes this post

    jhelb
    jhelb


    Posts : 1088
    Points : 1189
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  jhelb Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:21 pm

    This is a good decision taken by the Russian Ministry of Defence to test their A-SAT weapon. Russia was always against the militarization of space but with arch enemies like USA and dodgy nations like India developing such capabilities Russia was left with no other choice.

    Big_Gazza and bitch_killer like this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1739
    Points : 1741
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  thegopnik Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:33 pm

    only thing annoying about this is in western and social media is muhhh kesler effect.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10848
    Points : 10826
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Hole Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:36 pm

    It´s a ground based system. Weaponizing of space is bringing real weapons into space = satellites with missiles. At least it was this way. The americans moved the goalpost, again.

    dino00, Big_Gazza, kvs, PapaDragon, miketheterrible and thegopnik like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39187
    Points : 39685
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:26 am

    If they are going to have such weapons, and the US is forcing their hands in this, then they have to test them.... getting all bitchy and flustered that it creates a mess... well sign a deal to ban such things otherwise STFU.

    The Russians track an enormous number of objects in orbit from the size of a bus down to paint chip size... this just creates some more.

    Part of the issue is ignorance.

    If you have something in orbit and you put a bomb on board and set off that bomb and explode it into a million pieces those pieces are not going to scatter over thousands of square kilometres destroying everything in their path.

    Assuming a spherical explosion the stuff blown up and blown down wont stay up or down because it is moving at the same horizontal speed it was moving before so it will all return to its original orbital position roughly because that is the orbital height of something moving that fast.

    Things blown forwards in the orbit or backwards in the orbit will be sped up or slowed down which means they will settle in a slightly higher and slightly lower orbital location so in terms of collision risk the final mass will be spread out at bit but the area of safety around an object in orbit where other things can safely be placed on different orbits wont change a whole lot.

    It is like going to a rubbish dump and throwing a glass bottle onto a pile... if it breaks then the area of danger of broken glass is bigger than the area the original bottle occupied but either way you don't go walking in bare feet there in either case.

    Americans are whiny bitches and will not want agreements or limitations on their ability to exploit new technologies... when they have or think they have the advantage like murder bot drone or access or control of space.

    How will Russia clean up the debris?

    They are developing a nuclear powered space tug which could be useful for operating in orbit collecting up no longer functioning satellites and space junk... the valuable stuff it could capture and deliver to say their space station for being returned to earth, but debris and junk could also be collected and used as propulsion material or just fired back into the atmosphere to burn up on reentry.
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15196
    Points : 15333
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  kvs Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:52 am

    I can't find the information but it seems to me that the satellite may have been in an orbit where the debris would lose altitude
    over time. The lower end of LEO has enough "atmospheric" drag that things deorbit over time.

    The yanquis want to weaponize LEO and I expect them to try to use some "environmentalism" fig leaf. They will bleat about
    the need to keep LEO clean. The same old shtick as we see in the Arctic. The evil of the west is always wrapped in the
    pretense of good.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, Hole and lancelot like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4671
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:48 am

    Hole wrote:The orbit of the american satellite was lowered because the ASAT system used can´t hit anything that flies higher.

    The US tested their ship-based ASAT direct-attack on satellite that failed, was stuck in LEO, and whose tanks were still full of hydrazine. They justified the shoot-down as an "environmental protection" act (to stop this "poisonous cargo" from landing on the heads of newborn babies & innocent school children...) , and the corrupt MSM boosted this claim, cuz the Murkans are so good and honest and clean and couldn't possibly be fucking lying about their true insidious motives...

    GarryB, kvs, Hole, Mir, Broski and jon_deluxe like this post

    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2318
    Points : 2478
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Sujoy Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Americans are whiny bitches and will not want agreements or limitations on their ability to exploit new technologies... when they have or think they have the advantage like murder bot drone or access or control of space.
    The U.S is now developing a new space weapon in the guise of saving humanity. They are planning to change the course of an asteroid. In this way they will get to hit their adversary with a weapon 100x more powerful than a thermonuclear bomb and then pretend it was just a natural disaster. So no one can blame the U.S for the attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHce6TXVTQ
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door


    Posts : 1302
    Points : 1358
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  The-thing-next-door Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:13 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Americans are whiny bitches and will not want agreements or limitations on their ability to exploit new technologies... when they have or think they have the advantage like murder bot drone or access or control of space.
    The U.S is now developing a new space weapon in the guise of saving humanity. They are planning to change the course of an asteroid. In this way they will get to hit their adversary with a weapon 100x more powerful than a thermonuclear bomb and then pretend it was just a natural disaster. So no one can blame the U.S for the attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHce6TXVTQ

    The Russian developments in nuclear spacecraft would afford them a great advantage in this field, it would be foolish of the pindos to try such a thing.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39187
    Points : 39685
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:39 am

    Sounds really clever in theory but orbits and the atmosphere are not fixed and perfectly stable and 1,000 different things can effect how it comes in.

    Without knowing the exact mass or balance of the object they are using as a weapon it could just as easily come in late and land on Europe instead...

    Look at the wildly variable speculations about where satellites that are going to reenter and indeed where Mir would reenter... the closest they could get in terms of accuracy was "somewhere in the south west pacific ocean"...

    With such a level of inaccuracy the object could just as easily land in the arctic ocean and flood norway and iceland, or land on India or Asia or Europe for that matter.

    I believe Musk described AI as summoning a demon... I would say that accurately describes trying to control the weather or space impacts.

    Broski likes this post

    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 1474
    Points : 1474
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 36

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Scorpius Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:33 pm

    In addition to the media effect, the tests may have other consequences. So, we must remember that the downed satellite had an orbital inclination exceeding 82 degrees. This is a near-polar orbit that allows you to observe the Arctic region of our planet. Some of the satellite's debris has undoubtedly moved into an elliptical orbit and will burn up in the atmosphere in the coming weeks. But some of the debris will remain in orbit, organizing an elongated cloud, the exact spatial dimensions of which and the exact parameters of the orbital motion are known only to the Russian Defense Ministry, since only they have accurate data on the power of the interceptor missile warhead and could simulate with sufficient accuracy the scattering of satellite fragments and the warhead during detonation. So now this particular orbit and a number of neighboring ones are closed from anyone wishing to place their spy satellite there... except Russia, which knows exactly about the parameters of a safe orbit at these altitudes and this inclination.

    dino00, kvs, zepia, Hole, owais.usmani, lyle6 and Mir like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39187
    Points : 39685
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:07 am

    Would be a very complex problem though... we are talking about a mixture of the debris of the satellite itself as well as the debris of the missile impactor which likely had a collision course and enormous closing speed rather than a catch up from behind boom like intercept.

    But if the US does not want to ban such things then we are going to have to learn to deal with the consequences of both these sorts of things being tested, but also being used for real...

    The tracking capacity of Russia is excellent, so their ability to track the residue is not really in question and many Russian satellites had eliptical orbits so close approaches to the atmosphere and of course the variable nature of the extent of the atmosphere means material will degrade and be destroyed in reentry... but nothing will be perfectly cleaned up until they start taking the issue of space clutter seriously...

    There are some very large objects that were parked in very high orbits like nuclear reactors that will need to be dealt with at some stage and quite a bit of material is in one piece which makes it much easier to deal with... cover it in explosive charges or take it to pieces in place and then accelerate those pieces in a very steep dive towards earth will burn up most materials easily enough but some materials might need to be launched somewhere else, or returned to earth for destruction or reprocessing.

    Some reactor cores could probably be reprocessed and reused and materials recovered, but then anything not stable they could launch towards the sun for instance...

    dino00 likes this post

    Kiko
    Kiko


    Posts : 2882
    Points : 2928
    Join date : 2020-11-11
    Age : 75
    Location : Brasilia

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Kiko Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:09 am

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4671
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Russia will create anti-satellite systems based on the MiG-31 and Il-76

    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:14 am

    Russia will create anti-satellite systems based on the MiG-31 and Il-76

    MOSCOW, April 7 - RIA Novosti. Russia continues to work on the creation of anti-satellite warfare systems - the MiG-31D fighter-interceptor with an anti-satellite missile and an aircraft with a combat laser based on the Il-76, follows from the publication of the Military Thought magazine published by the Ministry of Defense .

    "Examples of Russian anti-satellite warfare systems being created on a relocated and mobile base are: the Kontakt anti-space defense complex based on the MiG-31 heavy fighter-interceptor; the A60 Sokol-Echelon combat laser system based on the Il-76 transport aircraft; combat laser system "Peresvet", - specified in the material.

    The last time officially on the ongoing work on the creation of an air-based anti-satellite missile system was in the open press in 2009. Then the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force announced that "the system is being revived" to solve the tasks of anti-satellite defense. In 2018, photographs of a carrier aircraft based on the MiG-31 with an unknown black missile under the fuselage, taken by a spotter in the Moscow region , circulated on the Internet. The projectile in several specialized publications was regarded as a model of anti-satellite ammunition.

    According to open sources, the development of a new aircraft-based complex designed to destroy low-orbit spacecraft is based on the existing extensive scientific and technical reserve and newly developed technologies. Work on a similar system based on the MiG-31D carrier aircraft and the 79M6 Kontakt missile was carried out in Soviet times since 1984.

    The A-60 laser weapon carrier aircraft based on the Il-76MD transport aircraft also began to be created in the USSR , the A-60 flying laboratory made its first flight in 1981. According to open sources, the plane was supposed to carry a megawatt combat laser on board to destroy low-flying satellites.

    In 2016, Yuri Borisov, then Deputy Minister of Defense of Russia , said that the development of the A-60 complex was moving forward. The last time the project of the so-called laser aircraft was officially mentioned was in 2020 - then TNTK im. Berieva issued a patent for the developed carrier aircraft of the combat laser system. This includes information about a computer model of an aircraft based on the military transport Il-76MD-90A.

    source

    GarryB, xeno, Hole and owais.usmani like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11328
    Points : 11298
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Isos Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:13 pm

    What's the point of the il-76 ? Use the laser from the ground and plug it on a nuclear power plant for high power.
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2778
    Points : 2770
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Arrow Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:15 pm

    They already have Peresvet with a capacity of about 1-3MW and in development up to 10 MW. They're theorized that it's powered directly from the reactor. The USSR carried out advanced work on lasers powered directly from reactors.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza and owais.usmani like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10848
    Points : 10826
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Hole Fri Apr 07, 2023 4:20 pm

    What's the point of the il-76 ?
    Mobility.
    In the current form the laser is there to jam or disable all sorts of optical recon systems - in space, in the air, on the ground and at sea.

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39187
    Points : 39685
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:12 am

    Also elevation, using a laser with built in power supplies at 10km altitude massively improves performance when pointing at targets outside the atmosphere... something like 95% of the atmosphere and dust and crap is in the lower 20km of atmosphere so climbing up through that reduces its effect on the laser, remember if the target is not directly above then the beam might be pointing at an extreme angle before it reaches space... doing that from the ground at the thickest most moisture and dust filled part of the atmosphere gives maximum problems for the effect on target.

    Even if the beam is pointed horizontally and remains in the atmosphere for 200km in a horizontal line the air it passes through will still be thinner than from ground level.

    Mobility is also an important factor as well... they could take some to Syria if they wanted, and it does not need to destroy satellites... it could just dazzle them so they can't see what they want to see as they pass over the target area.

    Remember at a divergence of 1mm per metre traveled a laser travelling 1,000km up will be 1km across... if they know the distance to the target they could focus the beam to concentrate the energy on a smaller area and would have to to do damage.

    As the technology improves the performance will get better and its ability to do different things will expand, but such things don't improve as quickly in a lab.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4671
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:53 am

    Flying an ASAT laser at altitude also gets the weapon high above the majority of the water vapour in the planets atmosphere, important when the beam wavelength is in the near-IR range as it minimises energy losses due to absorption.

    Sponsored content


    Russian ASAT development - Page 3 Empty Re: Russian ASAT development

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed May 22, 2024 10:43 am