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    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:27 pm

    Human beings have changed which animals are going extinct..
    Natural processes like past volcanism, asteroid/comet strikes, tsunamis, continental drift, & climate changes altered/wiped out as many, if not more, life forms than human activities.
    But people who want to save the whales or dolphins or Pandas because they are cute wont accept that because they are idiots.
    Pandas are the perfect case of an animal that should not be continued... in a world of survival of the fittest they are pathetic on every count and totally useless...
    Cute or not, they r part of the ecosystem. We caused their #s to go down, not the nature. Several species of big cats also went extinct thanks to us. Who r u to judge what species r useful & useless?
    By ur own logic, if less population is good, then we r useless to pandas, lions & tigers!
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:02 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    When will China put death penalty on those involved in rhino hunting? or turtle hunting.
    Japan allowed the Fukushima NPP 3 reactors meltdown & resulting radiation leaks that r poisoning their own fisheries
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster

    French & US nuclear tests did the same + got people exposed in the S. Pacific.
    U worry about rhinos or turtles more than people being slaughtered with French weapons in Africa & the ME? FYI, they have strict laws about smuggling & corruption- some criminals were executed for that &/ similar crimes.

    There are billons of humans buf just few hundred rhinos. I would erase entire beijing in exchange for the sumatra rhino
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:16 am

    If I was like u, I would remove or erase the entire French majority to save what's left on ur island: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity_of_New_Caledonia#Threats

    http://newcaledoniaforest.weebly.com/threatened-species.html
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:49 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If I was like u, I would remove or erase the entire French majority to save what's left on ur island: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiversity_of_New_Caledonia#Threats

    http://newcaledoniaforest.weebly.com/threatened-species.html

    You should read your own link. Contrary to all other pacific islands, no species went extinct since 1500. We do massive efforts to preserve the plant and animal species. The entire east coast is basicly untouched.

    We have gardens that concentrate on planting young trees of our unique araucaria and podocarpus trees ect. We remove foreign species and replace them with native ones.

    of course there are problems. But not like otehr places. There is more biodiversity in New Caledonia than on all of China. We have 90% endemic animals and plants.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:13 pm

    Killing of just 1 person is like killing an entire world within that person- according to Judaism, & I agree with it. In contrast,
    Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
    Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant".

    https://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

    Equoting the lives of endangered species to Ms of Beijingers is no different. A wealthy Chinese who hates France or Spain could also say: "I would wipe out Paris or Madrid if it helped to save the Iberian Lynx!" Did u get my meaning?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:35 pm

    Natural processes like past volcanism, asteroid/comet strikes, tsunamis, continental drift, & climate changes altered/wiped out as many, if not more, life forms than human activities.

    Yeah, I am not interested in blaming this or that.

    I am saying that extinctions are not new and not exclusively man made.

    Serious changes in the environment will naturally lead to extinctions... extinctions are normal... but the extinctions due to warming weather are negligible compared with the extinctions we have cause simply by clearing native habitats and building houses and roads and shit all over the place.

    There is nothing we can do to stop extinction except stop expanding... stop building rental properties... learn to live and fewer houses... smaller houses... temperatures will change... they are going up at the moment according to scientists not hired by oil companies to say they are not. Without the burning of fossil fuels and cow farts and a thousand other natural processes releasing green house gasses the climate might be getting colder which could be just as problematic... lower sea levels would allow human populations which are traditionally coastal to expand out in to what is now under water and will definitely be flooded when something changes and the earth heats up again.

    Cute or not, they r part of the ecosystem.

    They are a niche part of the ecosystem that is useless. Pandas only eat bamboo, they are too big for other animals to eat. There is very little nutritional value in bamboo so they pretty much have to eat most of the day to survive. If they disappeared right now.... completely... there would be no negative effect at all... except all the money spent to keep them sitting on their fat asses eating bamboo shoots could be spent on saving more useful animals.

    We caused their #s to go down, not the nature

    They only eat Bamboo.... they are a dead end of nature.

    Several species of big cats also went extinct thanks to us.

    Big cats serve to control the numbers of other animals and are much more useful to nature than pandas unless there is a bamboo epidemic and the only solution is to find an animal that can control bamboo growth...

    Who r u to judge what species r useful & useless?

    Removing unnecessary things like emotion from the equation, you look at what effects on NATURE there would be if the animal didn't exist.

    For Pandas there is no negative effect unless Panda shit is found to cure cancer.

    If lions or tigers go extinct then the animals they hunt and eat could increase in numbers and become a problem.

    If hyenas go extinct then a lot of killed animals will lay out in the open longer and rot creating potential for diseases that were previously prevented because packs of Hyenas normally cleaned up corpses pretty quickly, and also hunted in their own right.

    By ur own logic, if less population is good, then we r useless to pandas, lions & tigers!

    If there were 2 billion humans in total on the entire planet most of the planet would be natural and healthy and unpoluted and most of the animals that are threatened with exinction would be fine. If Africa wasn't being covered in farms to grow food for humans, if farmers were shooting lions and other predators to protect their cows there wouldn't be a problem for those predators... nature had a cruel balance... too many antelope and the lions and hyenas fed well and had babies... too many lions and hyenas and they fought each other for the scraps or starved and reduced their numbers to allow the herbivores to recover numbers again.

    Human beings is like a forest full of tigers... we burn down the forest to build farms to grow food and kill all the animals in that forest too. Tigers on the other hand would wipe out the native wildlife and then starve.


    There are billons of humans buf just few hundred rhinos. I would erase entire beijing in exchange for the sumatra rhino

    Good, so lets start with all of Europe... that is about half a billion... add north america and central and south America that probably takes you to 1 billion and I am sure India and China will give up half their populations to save this rhino... I mean who cares about europe and the us compared with a rhino.

    Equoting the lives of endangered species to Ms of Beijingers is no different. A wealthy Chinese who hates France or Spain could also say: "I would wipe out Paris or Madrid if it helped to save the Iberian Lynx!" Did u my meaning?

    It is like being hard on crime.... everyone agrees that criminals should get harsh penaties and that at the moment they get away with too much with short sentences... but when you say they will need more prisons they will agree... but not near me.

    I am sure our french friend would be happy to give up 6 billion human lives to save some useless fucking rhino... they probably don't even taste very nice.

    But not if those 6 billion include any french people...

    But as he says the west leads the world and france practically controls europe... together with Germany, which means they are to blame and should be the first to go don't you agree?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:51 pm

    lower sea levels would allow human populations which are traditionally coastal to expand out in to what is now under water and will definitely be flooded when something changes and the earth heats up again.
    a case in point: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/tour2go/otkuda-vzialis-goroda-na-dne-vysohshego-aralskogo-moria-i-smojet-li-siuda-vernutsia-voda-5da2771932335400b18f1a81

    Pandas only eat bamboo, they are too big for other animals to eat.
    some of them could switch back to other food like they did to bamboo from animal food. It's not like koalas that eat only certain eucalyptus' leaves. Spectacled bears in S. America r also strictly vegetarian. Leopards & tigers which lived in former panda's much larger habitat can eat them. The same with jaguars, cougars & bears in S. America. Polar bears came from Brown bears & now eat mostly seafood. Bears r omnivorous, like primates, & they can switch to different foods to survive. But if more specialized cats don't eat meat, after a while they'll go blind. In the Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda, there's mentioned 1 yogi who had a pet docile lioness which been fed only soybeans; unknown to others, she was certainly blind.  
    I am sure our french friend would be happy to give up 6 billion human lives to save some useless fucking rhino...
    But as he says the west leads the world and france practically controls europe...
    he wants to stay alive & tell others how to live, sticking his nose into others' business. He thinks he deserves a praise for carrying "the white man's burden".
    China in fact had a civilization similar to that of Europe before the Industrial Revolution, and superior to it in many ways. The agriculture of China was more advanced and productive than that of Europe because of the great use of irrigation: and the wide network of canals that supplied water for irrigation also provided cheap transport. The Chinese bad reached a high level of technique and art in the malting of such things as porcelain and silk, and in general the guild craftsmen of their cities were at least equal to those of the cities of pre-industrial Europe.
    Moreover the Chinese had gone a good deal further than Europeans in the use of writing as a vehicle of civilization and -government, and everything which that means. They had extensive statistics of government and finance at a time when Europe had practically none. They used written orders and regulations when Europe was still dependent on government by word of mouth.

    https://www.historians.org/about-aha-and-membership/aha-history-and-archives/gi-roundtable-series/pamphlets/em-42-our-chinese-ally-(1944)/the-oldest-living-civilization

    “The Chinese nation is the most patient in the world; it thinks of centuries as other nations think of decades. It is essentially indestructible, and can afford to wait. The "civilized" nations of the world, with their blockades their poison gases, their bombs submarines and negro armies, will probably destroy each other within the next three hundred years, leaving the stage to those whose pacifism has kept them alive, though poor and powerless. If China can avoid being goaded into war, her oppressors may wear themselves out in the end, and leave the Chinese free to pursue humane ends, instead of war and rapine and destruction which all white nations love.”
    “One comes across white men occasionally who suffer under the delusion that China is not a civilized country. Such men have forgotten what constitutes civilization.”
    "A civilized Chinese is the most civilized person in the world". Bertrand Russell

    “Chinese problems, even if they affected no one outside China, would be of vast importance, since the Chinese are estimated to constitute about a quarter of the human race. In fact, however, all the world will be vitally affected by the development of Chinese affairs, which may well prove a decisive factor, for good or evil, during the next two centuries. This makes it important, to Europe and America almost as much as to Asia,”
    ― Bertrand Russell, The Problem of China

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3179646-the-problem-of-china
    https://dustysojourner.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/bertrand-russell-on-the-chinese-i-chinese-western-civilization-contrasted/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell#Religion
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:54 am

    some of them could switch back to other food like they did to bamboo from animal food.

    They could learn to eat puppy dogs for all it matters... the point is that right now the only thing keeping them alive is that some people think they look cute.

    And by the way they wouldn't be heading to extinction if they could just change what they eat just like that...

    It's not like koalas that eat only certain eucalyptus' leaves.

    Koalas are not endangered because the food they eat is abundant and not terribly low in nutrition that they have to eat 20 hours a day to survive. It also helps that they are physically much smaller than Pandas so they don't require as much energy to survive.

    Bears r omnivorous, like primates, & they can switch to different foods to survive.

    They probably could but they aren't... and BTW Koalas are not bears... they are marsupials.

    he wants to stay alive & tell others how to live, sticking his nose into others' business. He thinks he deserves a praise for carrying "the white man's burden".
    China in fact had a civilization similar to that of Europe before the Industrial Revolution, and superior to it in many ways. The agriculture of China was more advanced and productive than that of Europe because of the great use of irrigation: and the wide network of canals that supplied water for irrigation also provided cheap transport. The Chinese bad reached a high level of technique and art in the malting of such things as porcelain and silk, and in general the guild craftsmen of their cities were at least equal to those of the cities of pre-industrial Europe.
    Moreover the Chinese had gone a good deal further than Europeans in the use of writing as a vehicle of civilization and -government, and everything which that means. They had extensive statistics of government and finance at a time when Europe had practically none. They used written orders and regulations when Europe was still dependent on government by word of mouth.

    There is plenty of evidence of civilisations across the world that were fully developed at a time when the natives of Europe were hunter gatherers or primitive cave dwellers.

    Civilisation is not the issue. The problem is the expanding human population taking up natural habitats of wild animals... we can't save them all. Even something as simple as a road can block critical migration paths used for perhaps thousands of years before and now a barrier to nature... we start pouring chemicals on our farmland to grow food and pesticides to get rid of what we deem as pests and wonder why all our rivers are polluted and where have all the bees and frogs gone... we are the problem.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:55 am

    GarryB wrote:
    some of them could switch back to other food like they did to bamboo from animal food.

    They could learn to eat puppy dogs for all it matters... the point is that right now the only thing keeping them alive is that some people think they look cute.

    And by the way they wouldn't be heading to extinction if they could just change what they eat just like that...

    It's not like koalas that eat only certain eucalyptus' leaves.

    Koalas are not endangered because the food they eat is abundant and not terribly low in nutrition that they have to eat 20 hours a day to survive. It also helps that they are physically much smaller than Pandas so they don't require as much energy to survive.

    Bears r omnivorous, like primates, & they can switch to different foods to survive.

    They probably could but they aren't... and BTW Koalas are not bears... they are marsupials.

    he wants to stay alive & tell others how to live, sticking his nose into others' business. He thinks he deserves a praise for carrying "the white man's burden".
    China in fact had a civilization similar to that of Europe before the Industrial Revolution, and superior to it in many ways. The agriculture of China was more advanced and productive than that of Europe because of the great use of irrigation: and the wide network of canals that supplied water for irrigation also provided cheap transport. The Chinese bad reached a high level of technique and art in the malting of such things as porcelain and silk, and in general the guild craftsmen of their cities were at least equal to those of the cities of pre-industrial Europe.
    Moreover the Chinese had gone a good deal further than Europeans in the use of writing as a vehicle of civilization and -government, and everything which that means. They had extensive statistics of government and finance at a time when Europe had practically none. They used written orders and regulations when Europe was still dependent on government by word of mouth.

    There is plenty of evidence of civilisations across the world that were fully developed at a time when the natives of Europe were hunter gatherers or primitive cave dwellers.

    Civilisation is not the issue. The problem is the expanding human population taking up natural habitats of wild animals... we can't save them all. Even something as simple as a road can block critical migration paths used for perhaps thousands of years before and now a barrier to nature... we start pouring chemicals on our farmland to grow food and pesticides to get rid of what we deem as pests and wonder why all our rivers are polluted and where have all the bees and frogs gone... we are the problem.

    Pandas also eat meat and fruits. Bamboo is a main food scource but they also eat meat

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:33 am

    Koalas are not bears... they are marsupials.
    I didn't mean to include them under bears. Pandas also r not true bears but they have common ancestors.
    Pandas also eat meat and fruits. Bamboo is a main food scource but they also eat meat
    that's right:
    Captive pandas also eat fruits (they love apples the most), nutritious "panda cakes", and steamed corn bread. In the hot summer, they are fed ice with apples inside it to cool them down. The food is strictly selected, going through several rounds of examination before being fed to pandas, to make sure the pandas get enough nutrition, and for the safety of pandas.
    Wild pandas prefer hunting for pikas and other small rodents as the last part of their diet, though pandas are not very fast, so injured and wounded animals are more within their league.
    Why Pandas' Diet Changed — Environment and Genetic Changes
    As "carnivores", it is unique for giant pandas to eat so much plant material. While their ancestors ate mainly meat, giant pandas belong to the bear family, so have always been omnivores. They have canine teeth and possess the digestive system of a carnivore, so although they have evolved to depend almost entirely on bamboo, they are still considered carnivores!
    Research suggests that environmental changes killed off most of giant pandas' predecessors prey about 7 million years ago, so, without any other choice, they became more and more vegetarian.
    At a similar time, though probably later, loss of genetic material made giant pandas lose their taste for meat. Research shows giant pandas had completely evolved to being bamboo eaters from 2 million years ago.

    https://www.chinahighlights.com/giant-panda/giantpanda-diet.htm

    If they r relocated to areas w/o bamboo but similar climates, some will die & some will adopt to different diet to survive.
    The reverse is also true:
    Polar Bear Diet Changing as Sea Ice Melts
    The new research indicates that at least some polar bears in the western Hudson Bay population are using flexible foraging strategies while on land, such as prey-switching and eating a mixed diet of plants and animals, as they survive in their rapidly changing environment.
    https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-blogs/research-posts/polar-bear-diet-changes-as-sea-ice-melts

    Climate change forcing polar bears to go on diet
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-forcing-polar-bears-to-go-on-diet/
    Civilisation is not the issue. The problem is the expanding human population taking up natural habitats of wild animals... we can't save them all.
    I posted those quotes to show that the European civilization isn't more advanced than the Chinese 1.
    Among animals & plants themselves, more adoptable species displace those less so. I don't think any1 want to save them all. Besides, their genes could be saved for future cloning.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:29 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Koalas are not bears... they are marsupials.
    I didn't mean to include them under bears. Pandas also r not true bears but they have common ancestors.
    Pandas also eat meat and fruits. Bamboo is a main food scource but they also eat meat
    that's right:
    Captive pandas also eat fruits (they love apples the most), nutritious "panda cakes", and steamed corn bread. In the hot summer, they are fed ice with apples inside it to cool them down. The food is strictly selected, going through several rounds of examination before being fed to pandas, to make sure the pandas get enough nutrition, and for the safety of pandas.
    Wild pandas prefer hunting for pikas and other small rodents as the last part of their diet, though pandas are not very fast, so injured and wounded animals are more within their league.
    Why Pandas' Diet Changed — Environment and Genetic Changes
    As "carnivores", it is unique for giant pandas to eat so much plant material. While their ancestors ate mainly meat, giant pandas belong to the bear family, so have always been omnivores. They have canine teeth and possess the digestive system of a carnivore, so although they have evolved to depend almost entirely on bamboo, they are still considered carnivores!
    Research suggests that environmental changes killed off most of giant pandas' predecessors prey about 7 million years ago, so, without any other choice, they became more and more vegetarian.
    At a similar time, though probably later, loss of genetic material made giant pandas lose their taste for meat. Research shows giant pandas had completely evolved to being bamboo eaters from 2 million years ago.

    https://www.chinahighlights.com/giant-panda/giantpanda-diet.htm

    If they r relocated to areas w/o bamboo but similar climates, some will die & some will adopt to different diet to survive.
    The reverse is also true:
    Polar Bear Diet Changing as Sea Ice Melts
    The new research indicates that at least some polar bears in the western Hudson Bay population are using flexible foraging strategies while on land, such as prey-switching and eating a mixed diet of plants and animals, as they survive in their rapidly changing environment.
    https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-blogs/research-posts/polar-bear-diet-changes-as-sea-ice-melts

    Climate change forcing polar bears to go on diet
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-forcing-polar-bears-to-go-on-diet/
    Civilisation is not the issue. The problem is the expanding human population taking up natural habitats of wild animals... we can't save them all.
    I posted those quotes to show that the European civilization isn't more advanced than the Chinese 1.
    Among animals & plants themselves, more adoptable species displace those less so. I don't think any1 want to save them all. Besides, their genes could be saved for future cloning.

    Of course we are more adcanced. The chinese lack one thing. Creativity. They have a hive mind mentality which makes it almost impossible for them to question authorities.

    You can now argue bla bla blub. Will not change how i think about them. I was in China and what i saw did not impress me.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:04 pm

    I was in China and what i saw did not impress me.
    I too was there, & didn't like many things- for it's still a developing nation that is evolving & assuming its former natural emperial (not in the Western sense) state, as she has the most ancient continuous civilization to draw upon.
    By the same token, Chinese tourists may not be that impressed with France, Spain, Portugal & GB-former parts of the bygone Roman Empire that traded with China via the Silk Road; in the last 300 years, all of them together lost more possessions than China.
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:45 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    I was in China and what i saw did not impress me.
    I too was there, & didn't like many things- for it's still a developing nation that is evolving & assuming its former natural emperial (not in the Western sense) state, as she has the most ancient continuous civilization to draw upon.
    By the same token, Chinese tourists may not be that impressed with France, Spain, Portugal & GB-former parts of the bygone Roman Empire that traded with China via the Silk Road; in the last 300 years, all of them together lost more possessions than China.

    Chinese tourists btw are disgusting. They have no manners, spit on the ground, eat directly out of the buffet, snot on the street.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:06 pm

    But the Europeans show affection, kiss & sometimes have sex in public, all of which is a taboo for most Chinese. What we saw there is just the surface, so don't judge a book by its cover!
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:30 am

    If they r relocated to areas w/o bamboo but similar climates, some will die & some will adopt to different diet to survive.

    The population size is not big enough... they would die out before they adapted... and where would you move them to?

    What place has plenty of space and no expanding human population to compete with?

    Now many such places left and even in those places there are other animals that want to be there too and are also becoming endangered.

    Pandas are simply not useful enough to need to survive.

    There are a lot if animals that are the same, but you can't tell greenies that because they want to save everything...

    Chinese tourists btw are disgusting. They have no manners, spit on the ground, eat directly out of the buffet, snot on the street.

    Whereas white tourists enslave the local populations and murder people by the millions around the world...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:47 am

    Pandas are simply not useful enough to need to survive.
    China makes $Ms off them by selling, loaning to zoos, + gifting some to make friends. I saw them at San Diego zoo.
    They have a breeding program to make sure they don't die out.
    Besides: Based on detailed calculations, the value of provisioning and regulatory services from the giant pandas and their habitat within nature reserves in 2010 was estimated to be US$1.9 billion, and the value of cultural services in 2010 was worth US$709 million for the Chinese population and for tourists from Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries. The total value of ecosystem service was US$2.6 billion. If the cultural service value was estimated for the global human population, the total value of ecosystem services would be US$6.9 billion. This is about 10-27 times the conservation cost of giant pandas. Their findings have important implications for giant panda conservation, expansion of the nature reserve network such as the Giant Panda National Park, and other investments in natural capital. Read more from Asian Scientist Magazine at: https://www.asianscientist.com/2018/07/in-the-lab/china-panda-conservation-benefits/

    The study calculates that, all the “services” carried out by the 67 panda reserves spanning over 12,740 sq miles (33,000 sq km) in central China were worth an estimated $2.6 billion in 2010. Meanwhile, it cost only $255 million to protect that land. This obvious benefit to preserving panda habitat is surely enough to convince those “journalists [who] have suggested that it would be best to let the panda go extinct,” the authors write.
    https://qz.com/1315209/pandas-arent-worth-saving-but-their-habitat-is/

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2158235/china-making-huge-profits-its-giant-panda-protection-programme

    Europe no longer has cave bears & lions to make $ off.
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    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy - Page 11 Empty Re: France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy

    Post  jhelb on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:55 am

    GarryB wrote:China does not want to control the west or to order it around like the US does today. They just want trade. Open and free trade... something the US is clearly dead against because they can't survive in a free trade environment.

    The Chinese have realized that economic power and global influence is increasingly linked to mass-market high technologies – like information & communication technology, pharma, robotics, Industry 4.0, civilian jets. These are the greatest value creators. They create income, and help build a military which protects the economy. Consequently China is investing billions of $$ in high tech and sending thousands of students to the US to learn from US universities.

    China also started building universities focused on research Some of those universities like Tsinghua University became so good that US universities like Stanford felt compelled to work with them.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:15 am

    It is China's long standing tradition to exert it's influence via cultural and economic means, .e. be so developed that other people flock to you. China actually had a long period of self-imposed isolationism
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:29 pm

    Indeed: Japan, Korea & Vietnam were all heavily influenced by China. The Mongols & Manchus that conquered her were themselves Cinisized.
    Without Chinese military engineers there wouldn't be the Golden Horde that helped establishment of the Russian centralized state. Later, the Turks were pushed out of C. Asia to Asia Minor & replaced the Byzantine with their Ottoman Empire there, blocking European trade with E. Asia. That led to the age of exploration. during WWII, if Japan wasn't bogged down in China, she would have attacked the RFE which could have led to USSR defeat by Germany & her allies.
    So direct & indirect, since the days of the Great Silk Road, China's influence been enormous.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:04 pm

    That led to the age of exploration. during WWII, if Japan wasn't bogged down in China, she would have attacked the RFE which could have led to USSR defeat by Germany & her allies.

    When Japan found out about the non aggression pact with Germany they decided to cooperate with Germany where it suited but to not take any risks.

    They fought Soviet forces in Mongolia and were taught a lesson... they decided to head south and east for the resources they needed because of US and UK sanctions over their occupations in the region.

    China didn't save the Soviets from a second front, Zhukov and Molotov did.

    The Chinese have realized that economic power and global influence is increasingly linked to mass-market high technologies – like information & communication technology, pharma, robotics, Industry 4.0, civilian jets. These are the greatest value creators. They create income, and help build a military which protects the economy. Consequently China is investing billions of $$ in high tech and sending thousands of students to the US to learn from US universities.

    China also started building universities focused on research Some of those universities like Tsinghua University became so good that US universities like Stanford felt compelled to work with them.

    They are not trying to change the international economic model, they are playing by the rules of that model to become successful. America constantly breaks its own rules and morals because it is no longer competitive... it has become fat and lazy and morally vacuous.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 pm

    When Japan found out about the non aggression pact with Germany they decided to cooperate with Germany where it suited but to not take any risks.
    That's only partially true: after the Germans didn't take Moscow & later lost at Stalingrad, the Japanese didn't dare to invade the USSR in the FE, despite their plans to do so.
    They needed its abundant resources & to secure their NW flank.
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2686733.html
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2705556.html

    However, Japan was ready to fall on the USSR from the East only on condition that if not all, then most of the Soviet divisions were transferred to the Soviet-German front. Only in this case could she count on the seizure of Soviet territory by the available forces without prejudice to the situation on other fronts, primarily Chinese. https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2706602.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Aristide
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    France Foreign Policy and Diplomacy - Page 11 Empty Emmanuel Macron’s very big idea on Russia

    Post  Aristide on Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:39 am

    Negotiations with Russia over a new European security order would have huge – to many, alarming – implications for Ukraine, the EU, and the NATO alliance

    Emmanuel Macron is a man with a lot of big ideas about how Europeans should step up their game on foreign policy. Perhaps his biggest so far is for Europe to engage in negotiations with Russia on a new European security order, reflecting his belief, expressed last month, that “the European continent will never be stable, will never be secure, if we do not ease and clarify our relations with Russia.”

    More deeply, Macron’s effort reflects a belief that the Americans will no longer defend Europe or engage meaningfully on European security, and that the Germans are unwilling to step up to help fill the void. Worse, he is also afraid that Donald Trump might sell Europe out to the Russians, or that Russia will fall into China’s hands – either of which would leave France and Europe out in the cold. The first step in avoiding that outcome is to probe what the Russians want.

    Many European and French officials – as well as much of the French foreign policy community – have serious doubts about this outreach and about the willingness of Russia to engage constructively with the West. Anticipating this opposition, Macron warned France’s ambassadors not to work through “the deep state” to sabotage the initiative. The subtext of their critiques is that there is no bargaining with a Russia that did not respect the old order and that will not abide by a new one: engagement will therefore just provide an excuse to end sanctions and ignore Russia’s multiple sins.

    Macron denies that he is naive about Russia’s malign actions in Europe. He recognises its use of frozen conflicts to gain leverage, its invasion of Ukraine, its threat to nuclear stability, its involvement in assassinations, organised crime, and money laundering, as well as its political interference and information manipulation. But he feels the need to relaunch the process with Russia, if only because no one else will, and because the consequences of inaction – a Europe that left out in the cold by a US-Russia deal or confronted by a Russia-China axis – are so dire.

    If he does manage to jumpstart a negotiation with Russia on European security, it will have important implications for NATO and the EU, as well as for the Ukrainian conflict.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR NATO?
    For NATO members, the key notion in Macron’s initiative is that Europeans should structure overlapping system of “concentric circles” of European integration, with each inner circle implying closer relations. In order to do this, one would need to: find new ways of providing reassurance to European Union and NATO members located close to Russia; create a new, more productive relationship between the EU and the Eurasian Economic Union; and agree a way to at least manage the various frozen, and unfrozen, conflicts in the region, including in Ukraine.

    Macron’s “concentric circles” phrase set off alarm bells in eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and south-eastern Europe. Some wonder if it means there will be second-class members of NATO or EU, or whether some states will become expendable or indefensible. In theory, if a new agreement with Russia put a limit on NATO troop deployments in the eastern part of the alliance or gave Russia greater visibility into NATO manoeuvres, Russia might be able to more easily build up military pressure on its neighbours (through ‘little green men’, manoeuvres on the borders, or temporary occupations). Russia might then be able to use this military pressure, or just the threat of such pressure, to demand concessions from these states, while the West was either too paralysed or too divided to act. These fears show that, even if France feels safe from direct Russian military threats, the cold war game of counting missile launchers and scrutinising military exercises remains a real one in eastern Europe.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE EU AND THE EASTERN NEIGHBOURHOOD?
    Macron’s ideas might also have important implications for the EU and the former Soviet states of the Eastern Partnership. The core of Macron’s approach is about taking Russian concerns seriously – something the Germans have been pushing for too. But, in terms of their purported economic concerns, for example, the Russians often deploy these as weapons in geopolitical disputes. Taking such grievances seriously thus risks missing the main point.

    To illustrate: the Russian government has claimed that the EU’s Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine effectively cuts Russia out of its neighbour’s economy through discriminatory product regulation. There is considerable reason to doubt this claim, and it seems clear that Russia’s opposition to the DCFTA was fundamentally geopolitical, not economic. The Russian government has, however, continued to push the issue and has sent the EU a list of 2,200 Russian complaints, a process that seems set only to confuse the issue rather than help reach agreement. The slow progress of trilateral talks (between Ukraine, the EU, and Russia) on Ukraine’s DCFTA implementation shows how difficult it is to make progress on these types of issues.

    WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR UKRAINE?
    On Ukraine specifically, Russia and Europe remain far apart. Moscow wants to use the decentralisation of Ukraine called for in the 2015 Minsk agreement to entrench Russian influence in Ukrainian politics. It therefore seeks to ensure that, even in the event of Minsk implementation, that the administrative structures and personnel of the separatist territories in Donbas will remain intact. The Ukrainians, on the other hand, want to provide the Russians with an honourable way out of Donbas. They are willing to grant autonomy and reintegrate the enclaves in Donbas, but only if an internationally monitored and organised transition government and justice system takes over, with new authorities and representative bodies elected under international supervision and according to Ukrainian laws. Amnesty may be granted to facilitate the current cadres to leave their posts – but they need to leave.

    The nature of decentralisation remains a divisive issue within Ukraine. Accepting Russian demands, particularly under pressure from France or the EU, might create considerable domestic conflict in Ukraine or even threaten Volodymyr Zelensky’s government.

    WHAT DOES RUSSIA THINK?
    It is not easy to say what Moscow makes of Macron’s initiatives overall – partly because, for now, Macron’s big idea is short on details. The thinking remains sketchy and he has not consulted with important allies. For the time being, this is not policy, but the thinking of one leader. This might be the reason the Russian government – which has long expressed its dissatisfaction with the European order and wanted to discuss a new one – has done little more than welcome the initiative.

    On the issue of Ukraine, however, one sees more willingness to engage. Here, a political process has been in place since 2014, and the new Zelensky presidency in Ukraine has provided it with fresh momentum. It is likely that, after a hiatus of three years, a Normandy format summit will convene again this autumn, possibly in October.

    But, even on this issue, it is unclear whether Moscow is willing to make a deal, particularly over Ukraine’s control of its own eastern border. More charitable sources in Moscow claim that, if the Ukrainian side is ready to go ahead with the thorniest of political questions (such as special status for the separatist territories and decentralisation of power), then Vladimir Putin might engage seriously with the process, partly motivated by a dawning understanding that Russian policy in Ukraine is failing.

    Indirectly, this interpretation finds some corroboration from one interesting detail that has largely escaped notice: days after Macron and Putin met in France in August, Russia’s defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, turned up in Moldova, wanting to discuss how to destroy munitions in Transnistria. The last time Russia was willing to engage in such a discussion was in 2003. This might indicate some seriousness in Moscow about cooperating with the West over neighbourhood issues.

    Contacts in Moscow with a less charitable take on the Kremlin’s thinking suggests that Russia intends to make use of Macron’s over-eagerness and Zelensky’s inexperience to impose its own version of the Minsk agreement on Ukraine. “One country, two systems is Moscow’s goal,” says one source in the Russian capital. “Kiev’s control in Donbas would only be nominal – a Ukrainian flag at a border checkpoint manned by Moscow, controlled by people from Donbas. We will not dismantle the ‘republics’, we will not fully relinquish control of the border. Zelensky will get two very different Ukraines under the deal. In Macron we trust to force the Ukrainians to accept our terms of the deal. We sense Zelensky may not fully understand the implications for the future of the Ukrainian state and may just yield to pressure.”

    https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_emmanuel_macrons_very_big_idea_on_russia
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:12 am

    What a crock of shit...

    Micron can go fuck himself.

    Russia is better off with China and India and other democracies that put money ahead of their own people.

    The west is broken and Russia should steer clear of serious ties until it is sorted out.

    BTW is this the same Micron with protesters in the streets of France for over a year... and his big idea is about closer relations with Russia.

    The stability of Europe has nothing to do with Russia... it is amusing that hints to all Russias crimes are mentioned throughout that article, but nothing is said about Europe or Americas crimes... which in fact are actual crimes... like overthrowing the legitimate goverment of the Ukraine and Libya and Iraq and attempting the same in a dozen other countries including Syria and Venezuela etc etc etc... but lets gloss those over because Russia is the bad boy on the bad boy step so lets talk to that bad boy about what he has done wrong... he wont be allowed off until he admits he was wrong to not let you rape him and his brothers and sisters in former Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe and Former Soviet Republics...

    The longer Russia is the enemy the better it is for Russia to be honest... they have become much more independent and strong with western sanctions than they ever would have been without them... pretty soon they will work out that they are better off not having close ties with the US or the EU because both are old time puppeteers and can't have access to a string they wont pull.

    Suggestions that better relations might give Russia strings to pull and power over EU states... yeah, they are spending billions of dollars to deliver gas supplies that can't be stolen by the Ukraine and you block them every chance you get... they are spending money developing a north sea route to improve trade routes from Asia to EU and back to save you money and you piss on their shoes in return. China is bending over backwards to create multiple silk trade routes from Asia to the EU and you can't wait to stick the knife in to them as well.

    Russia should get it into its head that they are better than Europe and the West and stop chasing them around like a wet eyed puppy craving attention... any attention... even a slap...
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    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:10 am

    Well said, GarryB. thumbsup

    By the way, Macron doesn´t have any ideas. He is only saying what his masters tell him to say. They wanted to break Russia apart and conquer it to get control over her ressources but that failed so they try to pretend that they wanted to be "partners" all the time and were just misunderstood.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:30 am

    Hole wrote:Well said, GarryB. thumbsup

    By the way, Macron doesn´t have any ideas. He is only saying what his masters tell him to say. They wanted to break Russia apart and conquer it to get control over her ressources but that failed so they try to pretend that they wanted to be "partners" all the time and were just misunderstood.

    Exactly, the old trick failed, it's time for another scam.

    Russia needs to culturally assimilate the fact that the west is its pathological enemy. And this includes all of the fraud brothers
    like the Ukrs and other Slavs. They are all freaking inadequates who are trying to victimize the wrong victim.

    For example, Poland is spitting in Russia's face while it expects Russia to pay for its delusional "gas independence" effort thanks
    to the Stockholm Kangaroo Arbitration Court. (The notion that some court can set prices is ludicrous, perhaps I can get
    some arbitration on the prices I pay at the grocery store. Not bloody likely. But somehow at the NATO state level we have
    all sorts privileges to force Russia to subsidize western parasites.)


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