Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+84
TMA1
ALAMO
Arkanghelsk
Krepost
Mir
Podlodka77
owais.usmani
ult
lancelot
limb
Kiko
magnumcromagnon
Rasisuki Nebia
lyle6
andalusia
LMFS
miroslav
xeno
ultimatewarrior
thegopnik
Rodion_Romanovic
miketheterrible
Labrador
mnztr
Ned86
franco
hoom
PapaDragon
walle83
KiloGolf
Hole
verkhoturye51
Tsavo Lion
Peŕrier
Singular_Transform
Arrow
Project Canada
Honesroc
Tolstoy
Singular_trafo
SeigSoloyvov
Isos
nastle77
slasher
Svyatoslavich
Big_Gazza
artjomh
Morpheus Eberhardt
JohninMK
GunshipDemocracy
Stealthflanker
RTN
jhelb
Kimppis
Dima
Werewolf
mack8
flamming_python
eridan
kvs
Zivo
sepheronx
max steel
Austin
chicken
par far
Mike E
KomissarBojanchev
Flyingdutchman
collegeboy16
etaepsilonk
navyfield
calripson
Vann7
George1
dionis
TheArmenian
Hachimoto
TR1
Viktor
GarryB
runaway
Admin
Russian Patriot
88 posters

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39322
    Points : 39820
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:04 am

    "Arsenal Ship" sounds too american way of thinking

    The conflict in Ukraine shows there is no shortage of targets so the more you have ready to launch the faster you can degrade the enemies ability to fight back.

    Having all your ships UKSK launch tubes filled with anti ship missiles to defend themselves means lacking land attack missiles to damage the enemy ports and home country infrastructure.

    Having subs or ships able to carry enormous numbers of missiles at one time means you can hit more targets and cause more shock and damage to the enemy, weakening its ability to do damage to you.

    The requirements are not extreme and you could make them modular so when you are not at war the launch tubes module is removed and a mini sub module is fitted for "research" and stopping the enemy interfering with Russian underwater pipes and cables, or actually interfering with enemy pipes and cables.

    Russia is not going to destroy any 3º world country, only NATO military hardware

    The irony is that against third world countries they could probably use fewer missiles to do more damage, while a HATO country will likely have more targets worth damaging requiring more ready to fire missiles.

    I mean the Delta IV subs would be useful but if they want they can spend money and make extra Boreis for the job instead.

    They could even use Thunderbird cruise missiles that they could sail to the southern oceans and launch in bulk to attack targets all round the world from an unexpected direction perhaps months after being launched...

    Tsavo Lion likes this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11341
    Points : 11311
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:25 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:
    For 2030-31 should have:

    12 Borey´s
    10 Yasen´s
    about a dozen of soviet remaining subs: 971, 971M and 949AM
    3 or 4 "Poseidon" carriers

    the next decade 2030-2040 the last dozen of soviet submarines will be replazed for more Yasen or similiar

    Not bad. But it's 14 Borei rather than 12 and could even be 16 if they decide to put kalibr in 2 of them to act as missile carriers which very likely when you see how good the missile is in Ukraine and how vulnerable ships are compare to subs.

    Add to that the diesel subs (some 20-30) and you have the parity in numbers with the US.

    I would build some small subs (P-650 or P-550) with some kalibr inside. They can be just as good as Karakurt but with the ability to torpedo any ship out there. They should be easy and cheap to build and would increase the threat to any enemy. Also same as above, a sub like that would be more protected than a ship like a karakurt as shown in Ukraine.

    Arkanghelsk likes this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2722
    Points : 2720
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:25 pm

    If they really wanted more submarines with lots of VLS cells they would be converting more of the 949As to use the new VLS system.
    Those submarines have more lifetime in them than the Delta IVs. And they use a reactor type which is basically the same as the one in the Akula.

    It remains to be seen what exactly will be the specs of the Poseidon carriers as well. I kind of doubt they will be single mission boats. The Poseidon in theory can be deployed and lay on the bottom of the ocean waiting for a strike command. So the idea you need lots of these boats to deploy torpedos is kind of misguided.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion


    Posts : 5846
    Points : 5802
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:51 pm

    I mean the Delta IV subs would be useful but if they want they can spend money and make extra Boreis for the job instead.
    or 2-3 extra Boreys can be built, so the oldest of the class can converted to SSGNs, with each of them armed with ~2x as many SLCMs than an Oscar/Yasen subs have.
    Also, for extra punch, 1 such SSGN can be escorting a naval group/merchant convoy, esp. in the NSR, for added protection against surface & subsurface threats.

    TMA1 likes this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2822
    Points : 2814
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Arrow Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:12 pm

    It remains to be seen what exactly will be the specs of the Poseidon carriers as well. I kind of doubt they will be single mission boats. The Poseidon in theory can be deployed and lay on the bottom of the ocean waiting for a strike command. So the idea you need lots of these boats to deploy torpedos is kind of misguided. LIKE wrote:


    They can launch Poseidon from ports etc.
    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:15 pm

    The Russian Navy does not need submarines like the first four "Ohio" class submarines, converted from SSBN to SSGN...
    Russia has no goal of demolishing half the world like the USA, and they can always place MZKT trucks with cruise missiles in the Western and Southern Military Districts.
    All Russian warship and submarine projects under construction have the possibility of launching 3M-14/3M-54 "Kalibr" missiles.
    The only exceptions are the 22160 cans (unless two containers are ever placed aft of the ship), as well as the 20380 corvette.

    The 885M project more than 50% larger arsenal compared to the 945A Kondor and 971 Schchuka-B.
    The Yasen has a capacity of up to 30 torpedoes in the torpedo section and 8 silos with 4 missiles in each silo, for a total of 62 torpedoes and missiles. Some sources say 8 X 5.
    Both the 971 and 945A have a capacity of up to 40 torpedoes.

    As for non-nuclear submarines, it is very likely that there will be more than 24 of them.

    * BSF received 6 submarines of project 636.3
    * PF the second strongest fleet will receive the sixth 636.3 submarine by the end of next year. The PF will certainly not stay only on these 6 non-nuclear submarines.
    * NF; The most powerful fleet will certainly not get less than 6 non-nuclear submarines.
    * BSF; probably not less than 6 especially since Sweden and Finland joined NATO and Poland will certainly rearm its navy.
    Even more, Russia could already next year have 14 non-nuclear submarines accepted into active service in the last 10 years; 12 project 636.3 and two of project 677.


    Therefore, the main beast in the whole story remains the Yasen-M and the only thing that can replace the power of those submarines in a real sense is a potential successor.
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2822
    Points : 2814
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 15, 2023 10:28 am

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4699
    Points : 4691
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:47 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    I don't see the issue dunno

    Surely this Sutton clown isn't trying to suggest that the "hollow shaft" is some kind of a metallurgical failure?  Looks like me like an engineered joint that has been decoupled.  It is showing some surface corrosion about the joint but its hard to know if it is serious or simply a little surface rust.

    My judgement:  a NATOista clown hard at work pushing the narrative of "collapsing russia"... Laughing
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2722
    Points : 2720
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:45 pm

    I'll post the whole unrolled thread here:

    @Saturnax1
    Project 949A Antey/Oscar II-class SSGN "Orel" (K-226) in a drydock. Note the hollow propeller shaft.

    Following is a thread about this particular boat and the massive issues she faced with her shafts.👇
    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 F-4tfz10

    "Orel" (K-226) propeller shafts were initially made of shorter hollow shafts coupled together with bolts & couplings.
    The inside was filled with fine quartz sand - the reason for the hollow shaft was it was easier to manufacture, lighter & cheaper than solid shaft.

    Hollow propeller shafts filled with fine sand also help to dampen vibrations & noise. Alas, this wasn't the case for "Orel".
    One of the prerequisites for the hollow shafts to function as designed was the use of lightweight propellers, but the technology to manufacture such propellers was not available shortly after the Soviet Union collapsed in the late 1991, so "Orel" was launched in 1992 with a new lightweight & hollow shafts, but with the old and heavy propellers.

    The initial sound and performance tests confirmed the propulsion was working as designed and expected, but the first problems appeared almost immediately after "Orel" was commissioned on 30 December 1992 into the Russian Navy Northern Fleet.

    Both shafts began to show abnormal deformations under increased loads at the support points & inevitably began to rub against the shaft tunnels.
    With the increased speed the noise of the shafts increased as well up to a point, when Orel's own extreme noise completely drowned out the noise of the underwater environment, rendering her sonar suite pretty much useless at higher speeds.
    "Orel" was soon known to the Western submarines as "The Roaring Cow" as she was routinely rattling her shafts across the entire Barents Sea.

    Defective shafts forced the command of the Northern Fleet to limit "Orel" activities & she completed just 2 patrols in 1995 & 1996.
    Due to the characteristic noise she was routinely tracked by the Los Angeles & Trafalgar-class submarines & further patrols were cancelled.

    Naval engineers tried to solve the problem, but calculations showed the only solution would be a replacement of both faulty shafts - the issue was the production of the shafts at the Barrikady plant in Volgograd was already suspended and there were no spares available.

    In 2001 it was decided to salvage the solid propeller shafts from the ill-fated sister boat "Kursk" (K-141), that sank in an accident on 12 August 2000 in the Barents Sea.
    The replacement took place during a repair period between 2003-2004 at SEVMASH Shipyard.

    This, however, solved the noise issue just partially, as the old rattling shafts already deformed the shaft tunnels within the hull to such an extent, that the submarine continued to emit extreme noises even with the "new" shafts from "Kursk".

    The noise problem got even worse in 2004, when "Orel" suffered an explosion of the aft trim tank while underway, causing a significant damage to the 9th (out of 10 total) compartment and the already damaged shaft tunnels.

    After all these issues Russian MoD finally decided to conduct a modernization in 2013, lasting from 2014-2016 - it included reactors refueling, electronics & weapons upgrades as well as repairs of the damaged shaft tunnels & replacement of the "Kursk" shafts with new ones.

    "Orel" returned back to the Northern Fleet in the late 2016 and remains in active duty based at Zapadnaya Litsa Submarine Base, Murmansk.
    Source: https://iz.ru/news/538511
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39322
    Points : 39820
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:21 am

    It is an Oscar II, not a Pike or Sierra... its Granits only need to get to within 400km of a US ship to get the job done.

    If it was an SSBN it would be a serious problem but if they were smart they could utilise the problem to create a trap for overconfident cocky western subs...

    For its primary role being noise is not a huge problem if there is only one.

    Think of it as a rattlesnake that keeps the US carrier groups away.

    Hole and lancelot like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4699
    Points : 4691
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:49 am

    lancelot wrote:I'll post the whole unrolled thread here:

    Ah, now it makes sense. In any case, Orel's problems date from the meltdown of Yeltsins "glory days" in the 90s, with the last fault happening almost 20 years ago. NATOista trash love to dredge up old stuff and rehash it, almost so they can get nostalgic about "better times" Razz

    GarryB and lancelot like this post

    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:19 pm

    Given the news reported by AMCXXL, we will leave the future of the K-152 Nerpa submarines aside and see the final outcome.
    Some LA submarines served up to 40 years, such as SSN-698 "Bremerton" and SSN-699 "Jacksonville". Although the double hull of project 971 submarines requires more maintenance, I think they are ready to serve up to 45 years. Submarines such as K-157 "Vepr/Boar" and K-295 "Samara" would only reach 40 years of active service in 2035, while K-154 "Tigr/Tiger" would turn 40 in January 2034.
    And the most important thing is that these submarines are not worn out and used a lot during most of their service.
    Unlike the first submarines of project 971, which were decommissioned due to lack of maintenance and negligence; Akula, Ak Bars, Barnaul and Kashalot, all the other 971 submarines were much luckier.

    And then we come back to titanium...
    As far as I can see, the project 945 Barracuda submarines, that is, the B-239 Karp and B-276 Kostroma, have not yet been officially written off, so I think that at least the two newer project 945A Kondor (B-534 nad B-336) could with modernization reach beyond 2040.
    Russia could modernize at least 4 to 5 submarines to serve until 2040 and these are the two mentioned K-157, K-295, as well as B-534 Nizhny Novgorod and B-336 Pskov. Everyone forgets that the Project 971 is actually a significantly cheaper option for the Project 945 titanium submarines.

    The-thing-next-door likes this post

    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL


    Posts : 995
    Points : 995
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  AMCXXL Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:10 pm



    GarryB, Big_Gazza, zardof, Hole and Krepost like this post

    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL


    Posts : 995
    Points : 995
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  AMCXXL Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:34 am

    Very good news
    I wonder if some Soviet submarines 971M, 949AM etc. will also return to service...

    franco, George1, zardof, LMFS, Hole, owais.usmani, lancelot and Arkanghelsk like this post

    AMCXXL
    AMCXXL


    Posts : 995
    Points : 995
    Join date : 2017-08-08

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  AMCXXL Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:36 pm

    Delta III K-44 Ryazan definitively decommisioned

    This submarine was retired of service in 2022 and crew disbanded or tranferred to a new submarine (Imperator Aleksandr III) that have been in trials in 2023

    In 2024 the Pacific Fleet will have 5 SSBN Borey class submarines in their ranks



    Last edited by AMCXXL on Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB, franco, George1, zardof, Hole and owais.usmani like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10919
    Points : 10897
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Hole Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:46 pm

    RIP. angel

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11341
    Points : 11311
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Isos Thu Dec 14, 2023 10:39 pm

    Not bad for the Yasen. It really starts to be a significant number with 4 in active duty ( 32x4= 128 uksk). 128 Zirkon waiting for targets.

    Oscar 2 still there. Sierra in reserve ?! The two Victor 3 still doing their job, even if they start to be really old.


    GarryB, zardof, AMCXXL and Hole like this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 35 Empty Re: Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:49 am