Russian Liberal Opposition

Werewolf wrote:

Wait a minute, I'm not proposing anything new, because:

1. I'm not Russian guys. I'm from Albania. I got enough problems thinking about my own country and region. Balkans ghetto, best ghetto, now opening in Greece.

Than don't demand things you are not in position to demand in the first place. You are no russian, you have no plan who should replace the current leadership than why demanding the current leadership in russia to step down? Such a thing would only do two kinds of people naive fools or people who benefit from a weak russia.

Wow so who decides who's got a plan and who doesn't? Isn't it the people, Russian at at that? What you're saying is that we're not in a position to change anything, so let the men in the know deal with that...Which is typically a US conservative motto. AND typical of the German class system. Naive fools? Hahahaha. Having a guy for 20 years in power is a NO GO. That's simple. Structures from a same party yes, same guy no. That's a fact son.

3. I'm criticizing what I see as a byproduct of chaos. People want order at all cost. Doesn't work like that. Order benefits the power. Blocks will benefit the majors. Now that there isn't an ideological and systemic rift, that capitalism is the way to go, there is even little to do against US bullshit. It's freaking easy. That's the point. The US makes it look easy. When I push my son to take a look at my adoption cases so he can have a little edge vs his friends. He says it's boring, a chore to do. That's indeed the case. But work is boring for the most part. It is a chore. That's something you don't see from the US. Now it's all about how through IT you can beat the market, earn millions and shit. Yeah lol, no kidding. It might be the future, but people will always need to work, eat, sleep, make love and litigate.

People want order to all cost is the product of the controlled MSM that constantly spreads fear that we fucking europeans are somehow in jeopardy from some religious fanatics the US and its puppets have financed themselfs or that somehow Iran or North Korea is a threat to the world next to russia while their record speaks otherwise. You have to counter the fearmongering from Western controlled MSM.

There is alot to do to counter US bullshit and currently Russia is doing it. People who say there is nothing that can be done either have a very low education on that political field or are just right out missplaced to talk about politics at all. I already have shown you several things that can be done but you stick to the bullshit that the USA is 2012 and will finish us all, the US is already finished its fall is inevitable.

Which isn't true, Order is what is wanted when people want a job, social services, accountability, they want a perennial system. Again it doesn't work like that with a system that thrives on competition. What can be done? Tell me? Where do you find the capital, where do you hedge your bets? How do you counter "MSM" when you can't produce anything with more finesse than a Rhino on LSD?

RT is a Rhino on LSD. There are lots of good glimpses it can offer. But then they're marred with guys that have their head deep in their asses. The Anti-Migration tune of the "experts" on some reels in just suffoccating.

When I push my son to take a look at my adoption cases so he can have a little edge vs his friends. He says it's boring, a chore to do.

That is the problem under Soviet Union there was an ideology for progress and education, there were many kids going to schools and actually enjoying it, today it is the oppossite. What problem i have with people like you is your mindset. You are thinking out of personal, short term and not collective long term point of view. If you want to change this that the kids today value time wasting garbage with unimportant time consumers rather than thinking about future, than there is little you can do alone but there is alot you can do from a political point of view. You have to restablish what i constantly say, the passion and ideology for education and science. There are many professions today seen as some dead end job without honor while in Soviet times being a teacher was one hell of prestige job, being responsible for the education of the next generations and building own future. Today it is the opposite, we have incompetent teachers that just are teachers because it is a safe job which can't be fired from unless you committ murder or rape the kids, but being a bad teacher you will not lose your job or being even partially racist will not be a reason to fire you at least that is how it is here in germany and in some other western countries.

Yes that is true. But you can't do that beyond a certain level. You can't just do that that way today. You can start whole Agit-Prop programs with the current cream of the crop of crooks in Russia. It's as simple as that. It's a hornets' nest.

4. If RT is your view on countering propaganda, then you're crazy (no offense). RT is just offerring the same kind of shit, but with Russian flavour. I see lots of guys that know their stuff and can be VERY good at demonstrating points in detail, but "THAT CRAP IS BORING". Having someone demonstrate that Yanukovich wasn't more of a crook when compared to the current clique, will be an investigative piece of an hour at best. And most of the appeal would be lost to Radio Free Europe's 'BUT HE ORDERED THE POLICE TO SHOOT'. That's the very issue I'm telling you. RT is already a low value system. It has many flaws, JUST like the "Free Media".

If you see RT as an useless tool to balance the monopoly of narrative the west brings than you clearly have no idea how politics works. Softpower is the king of war and peace. If you think RT is bad than you clearly have no buisness in geopolitics. The content is not the same, RT is not spreading fear and warmongering rhetorics to demonize countries or to coverup stories to invade other countries. It is surely not what i would want to have as the standard for News and Journalism, but you are a fool if you believe Media can be free. The actual free media are people that do it as a hobby and have only a couple of hunred views or maybe thousands views and have no income. This are comercialized media for the purpose of representing a narrative and that is important if you like it or not, but RT is doing a great job of countering the propaganda and it indeed has broke the total Monopoly of western controlled MSM where western people seek now alternative news. You can call RT whatever you want but it is an important and good step of breaking this "Ruzzian evil" garbage.

RT becomes useless as soon as you do fact checking. Same for any MSM. Preying on lazy people isn't opening their eyes, it's just confusing them a little more. But I agree that RT doesn't have hour long programs on HOW Obomber is a blood sucker.

5. Europoors are knee deep with Ze Germans. They don't have ANY other alternative as long as they are in the EuroZone and EU. Poland's Agriculture 25%, Poland Trade almost 30% (with remittances); Czech Rep 30% of its economy is on German hands. It's a fact. Numbers don't lie.

Everyone that use wrong examples and does not see the politics behind it is someone that does not understand geopolitics. It is not germany, germany is a Proxy embassy of the US. The EU is an US construct with Germany next to Brussel as the administrative which is directed and supervisioned by Washington. Don't even believe for a moment that Germany is some souvereign state doing it all out of own interest, it is not. No politician in germany has severed the last 70 years for german interests but Washingtons. People should realize that, because this Devide at impera is working exactly in this manner, using  Germany as the evil power over the countries that have been defaulted via IMF and US to canalize the hatred against each other rather where the hatred should go towards Washington

.

The issue however is that while Divide ed Impera might be a good tune it simply isn't. While Germany is unarguably toothless as a EU leader, it still generated enough around itself to create a situation in which the Europoors forget their woes and issues and start playing the Rasha bad tune. Hence the case.

6. Brics are way to different to be as focused as you think into a specific direction. China wants its share of Asia, Russia wants none of the EU shenanigans, India wants to fit but can't and Brazil is running a way to good business with Europe and USA to make any decisive strategic choice. South AFrica...No Comment.

All this is not done to take a dump on Russia, it is to instill a sense of sanity. There is a need to have a sane relationship with both the EU and USA. Off course being Majdanozed isn't it. And the Russian answer, although not palatable is a clear sign it won't tolerate BS.

Yes, you are right that they all want to serve their own interest, but they won't be able without BRICS, because the western market is a closed one for US asslickers only, meaning they are doing it out of own interest on a mutual basis, if they like it or not. That gives at least some freedom for economical shift and not relying on an evil controlled market which the West abuses and uses against countries that are not licking their bum.

There is not basis to have any relationsship with USA at all, it is an evil empire that is playing european and all other countries around the globe against each other for the US gain. Russia needs to counter the russophobic views created by US in europe to have their good relationships. The problem for Russia are only from Germany and the countries in between. They need to counter the russophobia in Poland, the failed states of baltics, romania, bulgaria, czech and ukraine other than that Russia does not need to get more narrative spreading across europe at all. Germany is a crucial and vital part for good relationships with entire europe that is why US does everything to undermine russian and german relationships.

There is nothing good or evil in politics. It is only about power.

Side note:

-On the economic part. Going all French Revolution on rich Russians will not solve anything. It's a matter of system. Russia has a self-destructive system when it comes to money. Non withstanding corruption. This is the norm all over the former Second world. You will only redistribute shady money and have smaller piranhas replace the sharks. BTST.
What is needed is simply retard-proof, Zealot like bureaucrats. You have a good bureaucracy, the private sector will get FAR more inventive and trasnparent. Right now, it is a joke. I don't think that the CBR isn't part of the issue, I think that the CBR's woes now it is independent will reverse when it will be enslaved. IE it will react far slower and without independence. Letting the Ruble float was a very good move, too bad it came after the State had burnt 100 bln USD.

There is a change needed but from own experience privatization and bureaucracy it is definitley not the way to go. Corruption here in germany is the 2nd most corrupt country on this planet after US and we are the most bureacratic country. The corruption is just legalized and canalized more or less making corruption a legal thing by loopholes everywhere, hard for small buisness but a dreamland for big buisnesses to be corrupt. You have no idea how the big gap between the corruption in russia and in Germany is. Germany beats the shit out of russia in corruption. It is just freaking subtile empowered by laws and loopholes in laws and the population is knowing it but they don't see the extent of it. Believing that a PRIVATE bank will respond in favor of a country is just lying to yourself. Private banks are only interested in private income and currently the constitution overrules the treaty obligations the CBR has to take control and stability of the Ruble, it was one of the major factors of burning the forex money.

Bureaucracy is needed because no one gives a fuck about procedures. A huge part of the deal is respecting procedures. It gives the apparences of order. This is a good way to neutralize the whole TI rankings. Again on the FOREX milking, it had almost nothing to do with the Ruble, it has to do with the fact the FOREX market in RUssia is still seen as a way to make money by people who normally would have their money put in long term projects. Fast cash. That's something that Europeans don't do. Because they don't have that much cash sitting around. This is a byproduct of grey economy and a Russian state of mind.

Again it is a matter of system.

-The executive part. People are going to want some change. Even simply a face swap. FFS even the PolitBureau did that. I know that first hand. It's how politics work. I'm not demanding for Putin to step down NOW. NOT even in the near future. But 3 terms are enough.

That is exactly what you demand, putin to step down, he is in his third period. Demanding such a thing is retarded. Question who do you want to see next? I want a name a party?

That is the problem people are only scratching on the surface to politics but are the first to demand things without understanding the consequences. You can not change the system just by replacing people who are currently working for CHANGEMENT. The next people that will be leading we don't know them yet, there is no one on the horizont that would do even a 100th percentage of what Putin did. Demanding change without solution is retarded, get more involved in inner politics and geopolitics before demanding.

That is how bloody revolutions come, people yelling for Change, peasants they are no plan of politics or how to change things are glad to overthrow one or to see someone gone and to see someone new than to realize ohh shit it is worse than before, which is called the fucking USA, every asshole of president did worse, Clinton, Bush, Obama and next will be Hillary Clinton and FFS if under her there are no nukes flying than this must be the proof for gods existence, because people are stupid enough to excuse every WW3 scenario under this vile creature.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Wow so who decides who's got a plan and who doesn't? Isn't it the people, Russian at at that?  What you're saying is that we're not in a position to change anything, so let the men in the know deal with that...Which is typically a US conservative motto. AND typical of the German class system. Naive fools? Hahahaha. Having a guy for 20 years in power is a NO GO. That's simple. Structures from a same party yes, same guy no. That's a fact son.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Which isn't true, Order is what is wanted when people want a job, social services, accountability, they want a perennial system. Again it doesn't work like that with a system that thrives on competition. What can be done? Tell me? Where do you find the capital, where do you hedge your bets?  How do you counter "MSM" when you can't produce anything with more finesse than a Rhino on LSD?

RT is a Rhino on LSD. There are lots of good glimpses it can offer. But then they're marred with guys that have their head deep in their asses. The Anti-Migration tune of the "experts" on some reels in just suffoccating.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Yes that is true. But you can't do that beyond a certain level. You can't just do that that way today. You can start whole Agit-Prop programs with the current cream of the crop of crooks in Russia. It's as simple as that. It's a hornets' nest.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
RT becomes useless as soon as you do fact checking. Same for any MSM. Preying on lazy people isn't opening their eyes, it's just confusing them a little more. But I agree that RT doesn't have hour long programs on HOW Obomber is a blood sucker.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
The issue however is that while Divide ed Impera might be a good tune it simply isn't. While Germany is unarguably toothless as a EU leader, it still generated enough around itself to create a situation in which the Europoors forget their woes and issues and start playing the Rasha bad tune. Hence the case.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
There is nothing good or evil in politics. It is only about power.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Bureaucracy is needed because no one gives a fuck about procedures. A huge part of the deal is respecting procedures. It gives the apparences of order.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
This is a good way to neutralize the whole TI rankings. Again on the FOREX milking, it had almost nothing to do with the Ruble, it has to do with the fact the FOREX market in RUssia is still seen as a way to make money by people who normally would have their money put in long term projects. Fast cash. That's something that Europeans don't do. Because they don't have that much cash sitting around. This is a byproduct of grey economy and a Russian state of mind.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Again it is a matter of system.

-The executive part. People are going to want some change. Even simply a face swap. FFS even the PolitBureau did that. I know that first hand. It's how politics work. I'm not demanding for Putin to step down NOW. NOT even in the near future. But 3 terms are enough.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Revolutions come because the political, economic and social situation becomes dire. There's inertia everywhere. Don't talk about revolutions when you haven't been in the middle of one. In Russia there is still growth, there is still potential. It is still a young system. With lots of room for improvement. AND appearences to keep. I told you, you can have a system, without having a face.

KoTeMoRe wrote:What Russia risks, is becoming a one face-state. And the West works hard to reduce it at that. Putin this, Putin that.

Werewolf wrote:Citizens do. I say you are not in position to change that, you are not a russia citizen such duties fall only for citizens of a country and no country ever should dictate around what is best for another. That is not a conservative motto, it is a fact. I asked you who the fuck you want to see up there. You could not answer this question, i asked you what you want to change you did not answer the question. If there is no alternative either you provide one with an own party or you are bound to stay with Putin which is the best option there is right now with some minor options which have disadvantages of no political experience but a good policy like PVO. Having a guy for 20 years is a No GO? Really having stupid and harmful exchanging faces for 100 years is even worse, better same guy with progress for 20 years than 5 idiots that are doing the exact oppossite and selling a country out every period.

Werewolf wrote:
How is that not true? Is RT not showing that Syria is attacked by US terrorists and that the same terrorists are good in Syria but bad in Iraq? Is RT not showing the involvement of US in the entire Ukraine coup de etat? I already told you what can be done, if you don't provide parolle you will be just overthrown with the current anti russian bullshit from the west, counter it or fuck off there is no other option.

More finesse? Like i said you clearly did not understand the entire geopolitical basis of medias. RT was the first attempt, it was a pilot of trying to break the Monopoly of western controlled Mass Media and it is a total success, it broke the monopoly, there are more westerners watching RT than russians. If you have a limited budget and resources you don't spread your resources to create small baseless narratives to counter something. You will never get media finesse from state budget, they have very specific interests and interests have to be fought for and that does not work they way you want to see it. It does not matter what you believe or think fact is RT is a total success story for what it was designed for, the monopoly is broken now the job is to expand on that and provide more and not just narratives.

Fact checking what exactly, give me examples please? It is not preying on lazy people, that is what has been the narrative or RT and they made it pretty clear, don't watch just RT watch other sources and watch different points of views, because basing political education on only one will make you biased and that is correct. I personally would say don't watch MSM at all and RT is not MSM because it is not mainstream but contra, but of course you can see on MSM where the governments are trying to shift personal opinions. When they start fearmongering against a country you know  the US already has its hands in it, as soon they start demonizing a man you know they see their oil or money hegemony in jeopardy.

What RT is pathetic at is to get a basic position in germany which is a game changer, entire Germany is the crucial factor for US, if they don't open eyes of germans that US is not our ally but our enemy they will never change the politics. The problem here is our german MSM is not even german, the head of ZDF is in US while ZDF is actually only a national Media with some channels for Switzerland and Austria but other than that no one else gets it, but the headquarters are somehow in US, suspicious to say the least.

There you are wrong, we currently have in Europe this Divide ed impera tune, europeans are getting blame at each other for crisis while all are direct against but at the same time against Russia, because US does not want to fight themselfs against russia they once again want stupid europeans to march against the bear.

There is a good quote from Game of Thrones, "Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick. A shadow on the wall. And a very small man can cast a very large shadow. "

That is the point where russia needs to play against. Germany has no power, but EU citizens where fooled to believe it, so use this believe, free Germany from Washington narrative and the rest of EU will follow that example. Germany is game changer for the entire Washington policy on european continent as soon you change that crucial part the rest will fall apart.

There is evil in politics, if the demise and decimation of people serves the fear and warmongering to create false flag like MH17 false flag, Tonkin or Pearl Habor to justify your actions than yes that is truelly evil, it just a sad truth.

So you want just an illusion of order just like we have in the west? What kind of problem solving is that to just take the blue pill and flee into an illussion while the problems only get worse where people don't even see the problems and the state can do any sinister things they want protected by the illussion of order and protection. Good thing russia is not going this retarded way and good they keep Putin up. I rather would leave in a bad reality than live in a dream illussion while vile scum is doing anything possible to steal more effeciently and to keep the intellectual depopulation in place. I do not want to live in that system and appereantly russians don't want that either.

Yes, the Forex milking had to do little with ruble, but it was used as reason for it and the CBR is the big part in that by directing the solutions and decisions how to deal with it. The solution is to seize property and money of those speculators and throw them out of the country, but of course you don't like that it is to harsh, always wanting change but never wanting take actions against those scum. You are very wrong on that part with europeans, they even have more corrupt system with milking the cash that is safed up like in Forex, they just do it more secretive and in different manner, but the result is the same they steal money and much more than russia has, it is called the ECB and ESM every year bln euroes are shred out from countries and pumped in the arses of private banks.

This little 100 bln are just peanuts compared to 700 bln capital that is milked and kept at its highest limits every god damn year. They already have milked countries taxes with over 500 bln since 2008 followed by already pre-planed bailout money with over 1 trln. This is how this bureacracy system is milking the countries to bail out private banks which stole and steal money from the people, who are running in default but the people are milked out.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Again it is a matter of system.

-The executive part. People are going to want some change. Even simply a face swap. FFS even the PolitBureau did that. I know that first hand. It's how politics work. I'm not demanding for Putin to step down NOW. NOT even in the near future. But 3 terms are enough.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Revolutions come because the political, economic and social situation becomes dire. There's inertia everywhere. Don't talk about revolutions when you haven't been in the middle of one. In Russia there is still growth, there is still potential. It is still a young system. With lots of room for improvement. AND appearences to keep. I told you, you can have a system, without having a face.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

The idea is here that we are discussing out of hand. You're currently in Germany and yet you're defending a position within Russian political landscape. The world shouldn't be US or Them. Because it is the shortest way to what is going on Ukraine. And Ukraine is the epitome of what happens when your country stagnates for two decades and has no other option but to go full retard or stay the course. If the choices are of binary type, you are bound to fuck up half the time.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Syria had its fair share of problems before being attacked by the cream of the crop of the Petro-Monarchies. It was stalling on many levels. Some of them were due to foreign meddling (Hariri killing, Syrian workers repatriation after 2005), some were due to the very system that Hafez had put in place.

This is what makes the whole narrative of RT unbearable on various occasions, because it does the same thing the Western MSM does, in reverse. Assad had a secular regime, true, he also had gaols for secular opposition. Assad is under attack, true, but a bunch of Assad's opponents are people that don't give two fvcks about democracy. It's just a good opportunity to break free for the Kurds. You can have an intelligent assessment of the situation without simplifying too much. Otherwise you end up with the US situation. Fighting its minions in Iraq, supplying the in Syria, bombing Iranian-backed people in Yemen, relying on them in Iraq. This is the confusion, simplification causes for the public. Typical IS chaos...

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Man there are enough examples out there. The lines to Russian/ UA border in april, Some reiterations there were no Russian troops in Ukraine (while we all know and have seen columns moving out of UA through Tarasov). Some idiotic petty propaganda RT has recouped like Photoshopped Swastikas on UA MTLB's.

I directly seek the sources where they are. I'm not bound to RT.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Germany is a game changer, but the problem is that German political elites don't give two fvcks about popular counscience.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
I don't see the EU leadership blaming themselves regarding Russia. They tried their hand in 2013 they failed, got to back up plan, failed again. Now it's sanctions time.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
What I see is a disruptive force in WDC that worked hard on the sidelines as the bad cop, and made it happen.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Still nothing Evil, it is just a means to an end. Politics are Amoral by definition.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
The illusion of order is needed to confound and disprove the idea that Russia is different. Rule exist to make sure everyone breaks them, but while not getting caught.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Europeans don't have the same level of liquidity. That's why Europe is having big issues with any kind of common policy. I don't like drastic problems presented as super solutions

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Bureaucracy? Bureaucracy was against the bailout, it was the political leadership that broke all the seals and said fvck it we're having a party.Technocrats would have you dead and buried if that would help with their models.

You call burning a 100 bln in three months nothing? That's the epitome of insanity. The defensive posture that the State took was directly undermined by the Forex market.

So much of your western bureaucracy way.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

FFS where do you think politicians grow on trees? Those able professionals that can change the system for good are faced with a simple system. Either with or against United Russia. This is good enough for a transition, it isn't any good for the future. You say provide politicians, why? Why principles should be bend because you can't think straight for a moment. This current discussion is a perfect example. You are defending a Statu Quo that in the end will always end up in stagnation.


Revolutions, again stem from inertia, injustice and graft. The violence is just a bonus.

Vann7 wrote:Very interesting report a must read...

What drives Russian liberals to self-hatred is that they see their country and people through western eyes

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-liberals-explained-5-minutes/ri7761

i have some really good theories as to why 5th column exist in Russia.. and
why most Ukrainians and why many Russians move to Europe and US..

Lets see if anyone can guess why Russian liberals exist in Russia.
also self hating Russians..

Vann7 wrote:Very interesting report a must read...

What drives Russian liberals to self-hatred is that they see their country and people through western eyes

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-liberals-explained-5-minutes/ri7761

i have some really good theories as to why 5th column exist in Russia.. and
why most Ukrainians and why many Russians move to Europe and US..

Lets see if anyone can guess why Russian liberals exist in Russia.
also self hating Russians..

kvs wrote:

Vann7 wrote:Very interesting report a must read...

What drives Russian liberals to self-hatred is that they see their country and people through western eyes

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-liberals-explained-5-minutes/ri7761

i have some really good theories as to why 5th column exist in Russia.. and
why most Ukrainians and why many Russians move to Europe and US..

Lets see if anyone can guess why Russian liberals exist in Russia.
also self hating Russians..

A lot of them are not ethnic Russian.  In fact, many of them are a species of Banderite with deep family ties to Ukraine.
Navalny is one such maggot.   In Ukraine itself, you a similar pattern.  Poroshenko's family line is from Romania and he
isn't even a Slav.   I know that the divisions are not this simple, but I see too many non-Russians posing as Russians
and bashing Russia.  If they hate it so much, then why don't they just do the natural thing and move to either where
their own tribe is, or move to the precious west.  And breathe the air of freedom.   Everyone would be so much better
off.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

kvs wrote:

Vann7 wrote:Very interesting report a must read...

What drives Russian liberals to self-hatred is that they see their country and people through western eyes

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russian-liberals-explained-5-minutes/ri7761

i have some really good theories as to why 5th column exist in Russia.. and
why most Ukrainians and why many Russians move to Europe and US..

Lets see if anyone can guess why Russian liberals exist in Russia.
also self hating Russians..

A lot of them are not ethnic Russian.  In fact, many of them are a species of Banderite with deep family ties to Ukraine.
Navalny is one such maggot.   In Ukraine itself, you a similar pattern.  Poroshenko's family line is from Romania and he
isn't even a Slav.   I know that the divisions are not this simple, but I see too many non-Russians posing as Russians
and bashing Russia.  If they hate it so much, then why don't they just do the natural thing and move to either where
their own tribe is, or move to the precious west.  And breathe the air of freedom.   Everyone would be so much better
off.

Like ex-pat Dagastani's and Chechens, the problem is once they leave Russia they end up having a vendetta against Russia, so they end up wanting some form of vengeance, whether it's setting up IED's and road side bombs (in Russia, or in pro-Russian countries), or trolling cyberspace.

flamming_python wrote:Russian liberals are mostly ethnic Russians, including the ones who ruined Russia in the 90s and led to all the problems in the Caucasus, ignored the Ukraine and did nothing while it slowly turned into Banderastan, etc...

Sorry to burst your bubbles guys.

AirCargo wrote:Russian scientists stage rare anti-government demo.

AFP By Anna Smolchenko, Olga Rotenberg

Moscow (AFP) - Russian scientists staged a rare anti-government demonstration Saturday as fears mount that they will be next in the line of fire after Kremlin crackdowns on the media, rights activists and the opposition.

Several thousand protesters including scientists and intellectuals took to the streets of Moscow to express fears for the future of scientific research, which is becoming mired in red tape and mismanagement.

Prominent opposition figures including top activist Alexei Navalny joined the rally.

Protesters held up placards reading "Authorities are strangling science", "Nobel laureates are foreign agents" and "Putin cannot solve problems, he is the problem".

Astrophysicist Boris Shtern told the rally: "Alas, science is slowly dying. The massive advance of ignorance is being supported by the media and authorities."

The protest was originally called in support of a top private foundation whose 82-year-old founder, philanthropist Dmitry Zimin, has come under fire for financing Russian science from overseas accounts.

Discontent among scientists has been brewing for months but the crackdown against Zimin's Dynasty Foundation sparked acute anger and disbelief.

The justice ministry in late May added the ex-telecoms magnate's Dynasty foundation to its list of "foreign agents" under a law that critics say is designed to muzzle critics of President Vladimir Putin.

Zimin, a widely respected former radio engineer who spent millions of dollars supporting scientific research, has threatened to shut down his foundation, demanded an apology from the authorities and temporarily left Russia.

An AFP correspondent said more than 2,000 people turned up at the rally, while activists counted some 3,500 participants.

"Antonina Aleksandrova, a biologist at a cancer treatment centre, slammed the attack against Zimin's foundation whose grant recipients include groups promoting liberal values.

"For the country to develop, it needs education," Aleksandrova told AFP.

"The Dynasty is an egregious example of how an organisation that played a huge role in this education has been crushed."

"It is a significant loss for us all."

Physicist Vladimir Olshansky said he found the current atmosphere of "lies and obscurantism" offensive.

He said the Kremlin was threatened by free-wheeling scientists and their independent-minded benefactors.

"The authorities believe that they themselves know who to give money to."

Chemist Efim Brodsky added: "What's happening threatens the country more than science."

- 'Only reason to stay' -


Critics accuse the Russian government of boosting defence spending at the expense of science, education and health care as tensions with the West run high.

Some have said that Russia appears to be losing its competitive edge in space, pointing to a recent string of mishaps.

Many supporters praise Zimin as a rare Russian philanthropist who instead of flaunting his wealth like many fellow tycoons chooses to support a young generation of scientists.

"Without the Dynasty young scientists would begin leaving the country abruptly," Mikhail Nikitin, a 32-year-old biologist, told AFP, adding that he was finishing a book he was hoping could be published with the help of the fund.

"For many young scientists the Dynasty's grants were the only reason to stay in Russia," he said.

More than 250 Russian scientists, most of them working abroad, signed an open letter in support of Zimin, saying they were "outraged and extremely worried" by the pressure on the fund and its possible consequences.

Zimin's foundation has a 2015 budget of 435 million rubles ($7.7 million at the current exchange rate).

"My money is kept abroad," Zimin, who founded mobile telecommunications giant VimpelCom in 1992, told Russian reporters. "But Russia also keeps its money abroad."

Putin signed the law on "foreign agents" in 2012, after huge opposition protests, and described the legislation as "self-defence" against the financing of political activities in the country from abroad.

Scores of rights groups resent the tag carrying connotations of Cold War espionage.

Alfa T8 wrote:This brain-drain crap agian

me:

Didn't Obama says Russia invents nothing? that is only a gas station? and here they have an NGO stealing talent from Russia? This Foreign NGO ,is nothing more an Spy agency that seeks to identify best Russian students and steal them away from Russia and put them to work for US defense Industry. This is treason. No one give away Millions for "promoting science" ,they can go to AFRICA or Middle east instead and they will find millions of students there to "promote science" there if they want. After Russia invest so much money from its budget for a high quality free education to Russian people. Free healthcare and free apartment for students.that later comes a Rogue nation and steal the talent ? Give me a break. Americans should take their money and invest it in their own failed education system, instead and stop interfering for once in the development of other nations.This have nothing to do with promoting Science but stealing talent away of Russia every year. This is how US maintain its defense industry updated.. stealing foreign talent from other nations. And is not surprise majority of PHD Scientist in USA are foreigners with visa.It was about time this NGO of Thieves of Scientific talent was banned. US or any foreign nation should take their money and fund their own education instead and stop stealing talent from others and interfering in the development of others nations.

reply by @Erik Trete:
It more than just NGOs stealing top talent. Google for example is a prime example of Western companies setting up a "development lab" in Russia, then transferring the best talent to their corporate labs in California.

AirCargo wrote:

Alfa T8 wrote:This brain-drain crap agian

"Without the Dynasty young scientists would begin leaving the country abruptly," Mikhail Nikitin, a 32-year-old biologist, told AFP, adding that he was finishing a book he was hoping could be published with the help of the fund.

"For many young scientists the Dynasty's grants were the only reason to stay in Russia," he said.

"For many young scientists the Dynasty's grants were the only reason to stay in Russia," he said.

Neutrality wrote:You guys remember the NGO law pushed by Duma? I think it's proving its use as the leader of "Dynasty" relocated to that other country. Apparently their leader got financial help from some foreign organisations (we all know who) and they have been using that money to fund other NGOs like "Liberal Mission" which I never even heard of. They also funded "research programs" with 2 BILLION roubles! Seriously, 2 fucking billion roubles from an NGO. These guys have some serious explaining to do and no wonder the rat fled before the prosecution could do anything. Good riddance. Let's hope other assholes like Navalny fuck off as well.

flamming_python wrote:
I call BS.

sepheronx wrote:Meh. There were plenty of protest from the so called scientific community. How much of them are actually in science? Who knows. But having Navalny in your group just ruins whatever credibility they had.

Science is supposed to be funded by either government or none affiliate groups. Obviously this ngo who was under a specific group clearly was doing unscrupulous activity as I heard the head fled the country.

Anyway, if these so called patriots want to leave, let them. Scientific development hasnt changed in Russia as Tomsk has proven that fact. If many leave, many will get new jobs as there will be openings. As long as there is money, there will be work. Add to that, they have been crying about brain drain but doesnt appear evident.