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    Future of Russian IFV/AFVs

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:25 pm

    I honestly thought they were already introducing this upgrade already to the Armed forces. Guess I was having a fever dream.
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:57 pm

    B-19 ( built on the base of BMP-3) is supposed to be ordered already. This looks like same upgrade, but built on the base of BMP-2.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:50 am

    It must be admitted that the appearance of the prototype B-18 once again testifies to the ongoing chaos in Russia in recent years in the programs for the development of armored vehicles, which led to the appearance and parallel development and testing of a simply phantasmagoric number of samples without any practical result in the form of mass serial production and entry into the troops.

    They are spoiled for choice and the writer of that article thinks that is a bad thing?

    They have such a large number of existing types then of course adding two new turret types for BMPs... one having a high velocity 57mm gun and missiles and the other having a low velocity grenade launcher in 57mm and missiles means that eleven different APC/IFV means there is going to be 20 different variations... BTR-60/70/80/82, BMP-1/2/3, BMD-1/2/3/4... and that is not including MTLBs and DT two chassis tracked vehicles for arctic use as well... but that means those old turrets all getting replaced by two different types which is actually improving the situation and at the same time upgrading the fire power of existing vehicles and getting new weapons and sensors and equipment into service quicker which are all very good things.

    B-19 ( built on the base of BMP-3) is supposed to be ordered already. This looks like same upgrade, but built on the base of BMP-2.

    It seems like they have decided on the 57mm grenade launcher for the IFV because its APFSDS should be powerful enough against enemy light vehicles along with Bulat missiles (APFSDS for stationary or reasonably close targets and missiles for further away moving targets), and other targets they have Kornet.

    The 57mm bomb this launcher fires looks rather big and heavy and I would think a command detonated air burst version would be incredibly potent and useful... it is just all bomb.

    The high velocity 57mm looks good too and its higher velocity would be good for engaging air targets.

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:00 am

    The upgraded BMP-2 appears to have the 30mm Epocha installed rather than the 57mm.

    Strange considering that it would have less firepower than the Berezhok equipped BMPs.

    [img]Future of Russian IFV/AFVs - Page 9 Bmp2ep10[/img]
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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:23 am

    Don´t forget the 8 Bulat missiles in the turret.  Very Happy
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:27 am

    Hole wrote:Don´t forget the 8 Bulat missiles in the turret.  Very Happy

    Not on the 30mm version.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:11 pm

    My apologies the B-18 does infact appear to have the 57mm Epocha.

    Future of Russian IFV/AFVs - Page 9 Epocha10

    Future of Russian IFV/AFVs - Page 9 Epocka11

    As you can see the 30mm turret has one long panel along the bustle and the 57mm has two panels one for the 57mm ammo and one for the missiles.

    The sights are also in different places though they cannot be made out in the picture of the B-18.

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:01 pm

    There are two advantages compared to Berezhok:

    - turret is unmanned
    - all the ammo is outside of the hull

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    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:18 pm

    Also with that low pressure 57mm cannon it is able to fire apfsds ammo as well as the 57mm mortar shells, which have a blast effect pretty close to the 100mm shell. It basically is the best of both worlds seen in the bmp3 turret except it is a single weapon and it is remotely controlled for more space inside the vehicle.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:13 am

    I was just going to add that changing the old turrets of all the old BMPs and APCs and replacing them with new turrets means unification of armament and unification of sights and drives and equipment.

    There are three turrets they tested during their tests... Berezhok, Epoch, and Dagger... with a 30mm cannon, 57mm grenade launcher, and a 57mm high velocity gun respectively.

    They also have an APC turret mounting either a Kord HMG or a 14.5mm KPV HMG that can be used on all vehicle bases. with zero hull penetration so it does not reduce or limit troop capacity.

    The old BMP and BTR turrets included a range of weapons from 30mm 2A42 and 2A72 cannon to 73mm and 100mm guns, as well as 14.5mm HMGs... all of which took up internal hull space for operators and ammo.

    These new turrets introduce new weapons and new ammo but to reduce the chaos rather than increasing it I would expect, and would also increase internal volume for troops on the vehicles they are mounted on.

    The information I collected on their tests show the potential new vehicles have the following designations:

    B-10-armored personnel carrier BTR-G "Kurganets-25"... (Kord turret on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-11-infantry fighting vehicle "Kurganets-25"... (Berezhok turret on Kurganets vehicle with 30mm cannon)
    B-12-armored repair and evacuation vehicle "Kurganets-25"... (BREM vehicle Kurganets)
    B-14 - BMP "Kurganets-25" with BO "Dagger"... (high velocity 57mm gun on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-15-BMP "Kurganets-25" with BO "Epoch"... (57mm grenade launcher on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-16-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Dagger"... (high velocity 57mm gun on BMP-2 vehicle)
    B-17-BMP on the chassis of BMP-3 with BO "Dagger"... (high velocity 57mm gun on BMP-3 vehicle)
    B-18-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Epoch"... (57mm grenade launcher on BMP-2 vehicle)
    B-19-BMP on the BMP-3 chassis with the BO "Epoch"... (57mm grenade launcher on BMP-3 vehicle)
    B-22-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Berezhok"... (Berezhok turret on BMP-2 vehicle with 30mm cannon)
    B-23-BMP on the chassis of BMD-2 with BO "Berezhok"... (Berezhok turret on BMD-2 vehicle with 30mm cannon)

    Note all these vehicles are in the medium tracked category so they get B designations.... wheeled vehicles will get a K designation for Boomerang, and the heavy BMO-T and BTR-T should get T series designations I assume.

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    Post  George1 Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:19 am

    GarryB wrote:I was just going to add that changing the old turrets of all the old BMPs and APCs and replacing them with new turrets means unification of armament and unification of sights and drives and equipment.

    There are three turrets they tested during their tests...  Berezhok, Epoch, and Dagger... with a 30mm cannon, 57mm grenade launcher, and a 57mm high velocity gun respectively.

    They also have an APC turret mounting either a Kord HMG or a 14.5mm KPV HMG that can be used on all vehicle bases. with zero hull penetration so it does not reduce or limit troop capacity.

    The old BMP and BTR turrets included a range of weapons from 30mm 2A42 and 2A72 cannon to 73mm and 100mm guns, as well as 14.5mm HMGs... all of which took up internal hull space for operators and ammo.

    These new turrets introduce new weapons and new ammo but to reduce the chaos rather than increasing it I would expect, and would also increase internal volume for troops on the vehicles they are mounted on.

    The information I collected on their tests show the potential new vehicles have the following designations:

    B-10-armored personnel carrier BTR-G "Kurganets-25"...        (Kord turret on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-11-infantry fighting vehicle "Kurganets-25"...                         (Berezhok turret on Kurganets vehicle with 30mm cannon)
    B-12-armored repair and evacuation vehicle "Kurganets-25"... (BREM vehicle Kurganets)
    B-14 - BMP "Kurganets-25" with BO "Dagger"...                        (high velocity 57mm gun on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-15-BMP "Kurganets-25" with BO "Epoch"...                            (57mm grenade launcher on Kurganets vehicle)
    B-16-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Dagger"...            (high velocity 57mm gun on BMP-2 vehicle)
    B-17-BMP on the chassis of BMP-3 with BO "Dagger"...            (high velocity 57mm gun on BMP-3 vehicle)
    B-18-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Epoch"...              (57mm grenade launcher on BMP-2 vehicle)
    B-19-BMP on the BMP-3 chassis with the BO "Epoch"...            (57mm grenade launcher on BMP-3 vehicle)
    B-22-BMP on the chassis of BMP-2 with BO "Berezhok"...         (Berezhok turret on BMP-2 vehicle with 30mm cannon)
    B-23-BMP on the chassis of BMD-2 with BO "Berezhok"...         (Berezhok turret on BMD-2 vehicle with 30mm cannon)

    Note all these vehicles are in the medium tracked category so they get B designations.... wheeled vehicles will get a K designation for Boomerang, and the heavy BMO-T and BTR-T should get T series designations I assume.

    too many modules
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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:56 am

    wasnt sure where to post this as it could easily have been posted in BMP-3, 2S38, or here sections. and apologies if already posted. mods feel free to relocate this elsewhere if needed.

    while doing a bit of research came across a few things. first one was a Ukrainian attempt back 1998 to mount a S-60 57mm gun on to a BTR-80 apparently it wasnt well mounted and caused a few issues including having to be to loaded and fired outside of the vehicle. see pics below.

    Future of Russian IFV/AFVs - Page 9 15766810

    also a worthy mention was the upgrade to the PT-76 with the S-60 57mm gun. according to the article the PT-76 upgrade was more stable and effective at firing than the Ukranian attempt. Only handful were made the only thing that stopped the Russians from adopting the upgrade to PT-76 was the old chassis of the PT-76.

    Future of Russian IFV/AFVs - Page 9 15766811

    and finally pics of the early AGS-57. this took part in joint exercises with China and Russian airborne forces in 2005 and later on in the same year with joint exercise with India. (translation wasnt the greatest)

    "in August-September 2005, the Russian military for the first time demonstrated (in the People's Republic of China, at the joint Russian-Chinese exercises "Xiao Lan-2005" / "Peace Mission-2005") a new 57-mm automatic grenade launcher complex AGS-57. The complex was demonstrated, being installed on an armored personnel carrier BTR-D (and for the installation of a grenade launcher on the BTR-D, it turned out to be necessary to drill holes in the armored corps (! !)). In October 2005, AGS-57 was also demonstrated at the joint Russian-Indian exercises Indra-2005, held in India in the Tar desert (Rajastan). The public (foreign, not demonstrated in Russia) was first demonstrated (along with other equipment of the Russian Airborne Forces) also in China, but already in 2006 it is given as proof that "Russia has not left the leading positions in the development of automatic grenade launchers."
    The system, positioned also as a "light artillery complex" and (export designation) "light assault weapon / light assault weapon / gun" (which is associated with the alternative designation - LAW-57/LSO-57), is designed to solve most of the firing tasks of artillery in the interests of the battalion. It is stated that the AGS-57/LShO-57 “provides the possibility of effective destruction of various targets at a range of up to 6000 m,” and “significant mobility (dubious statement – the weight of the AGS-57 in combat position reaches 250 kg) ensures the suddenness of combat use.”
    Power of the grenade launcher with ammunition - from "cassettes" (loading) for 5 shots each through a special feed unit located on top of the grenade launcher. The fire mode is single or automatic. The sight is optical. The two-wheeled machine is equipped with a guidance mechanism, which is driven by two rotating handles. It is known that in the creation of a 57-mm shot of increased power for the new AGS (the mass of the shot - presumably about 1.5 kg) was attended by the head of the ammunition department of the 30th branch (Central Design Research Bureau of Sports and Hunting Weapons / TsKIB SOO, Tula) of the federal state unitary enterprise "Design Bureau of Instrumentation" (KBP, Tula) Alexander Vladimirovich Bryzzhev, who, on the initiative, AGS-57 armor-piercing shot WB-57 to combat lightly armored vehicles.
    Range of fire 6 km
    Five rounds, semi-automatic.
    The weapon is very simple to handle. We tried it at distances up to 5200m. and direct guidance and hinged.
    The sight of PAG 17 was shot on the table.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:36 am

    too many modules

    That was only for testing, some might never enter service... there is repetition there so they might just decided on the 57mm grenade launcher for the BMP-3 upgrade so the B-19 would replace BMP-3s in units that currently have BMP-3s, or they might decide that a mix of turret types might be useful for different regions and areas and situations.

    The weapon is very simple to handle. We tried it at distances up to 5200m. and direct guidance and hinged.

    Direct fire and indirect fire... to 5.2km is pretty good...

    “significant mobility (dubious statement – the weight of the AGS-57 in combat position reaches 250 kg)

    It does have wheels... the 82mm Vasilek automatic mortar and D-20 towed 122mm guns are mobile too and it weigh 640kg and 3.2 tons respectively, but they are not considered static weapons.

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