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    Μilitary Questions & Answers

    MMBR
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    Post  MMBR Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:54 pm

    Thank you Franco, that was easy to understand 👌
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    Post  nomadski Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:27 am

    Does Russia , can Russia manufacture timed fuses to convert old 57- 60 mm Anti- Aircraft round ( impact fused ) , to fire in direct mode against trenches at 6- 8 kilometre distance ? Can this new fuse be mounted directly on the impact fused round , without removing the old fuse ? The timed fuse providing the " impact " to impact fuse ? In this way then modifications can be most cost effective , with no need to remove old fuses from millions of rounds ? This round can defeat troops in trenches firing ATGW of anti- Tank .

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTqPzwDH1k


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XKVIXXabkl0

    Edit : The guns being mounted on soft chassis of Trucks , in rapid fire mode of four rounds , lifts up the Barrel and the subsequent round always hits about 100 meter further away ! One easy way is to copy the Thompson MG , and drill a hole in top of Barrel near the end to vent gas and push Barrel down ?


    Edit 2: My idea is to range with laser to target to get distance . Then programme a counter in the fuse nose section with number of revolutions ( done , when round is fired by gun , by electronic remote means of even direct electric contact with barrel ) . Then gunner track the round and lase the round , in LOS to target to allow counter in the fuse to count revolutions . Should be cheap and effective . Maybe cost less than ten Euro for fuse .

    https://www.electronicproducts.com/choosing-a-sensor-to-measure-rotation/
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:39 pm

    You have fixed ammo and not fixed ammo... most 57mm shells will be fixed so the round has a specific load of explosive and fragments or a HEAT charge or whatever and a fuse that is suitable for that type of round.

    A new HE round might have a smart fuse where it can be set to explode on the lightest graze of the target, or it might have a time or radar fuse to explode a certain distance from the target, with the smart fuse you might have it set so that if it hits something but penetrates it the fuse will delay a half second so it explodes inside, whereas if it hits something solid it cannot penetrate it will explode after not making any progress into the target.

    Artillery shells normally get fuses attached to them just before you fire them and the different types of fuses can have different settings you can set before firing them.

    They are supposed to have developed an electronic fuse with GLONASS guidance and is fitted with small control fins to steer the shell in flight turning plain standard dumb artillery shells into guided shells... and with 152mm shells (and 122mm) shells having a standard fuse pocket size you could fit them to brand new shells, but also old WWII or even WWI era shells.

    Timed fuses are not great... the precision needed has to be nanoseconds accurate which makes the timers really expensive... what the Russians seem to be doing is going for command detonated shells... initially they were going to use a laser beam where you fired a shell and then while tracking the target and the shell with radar when the shell approached the target a laser beam flashed a signal to detonate the shell as close as possible to the target. It eliminates the need for precision timers inside the shell which is the disposable part of the system and therefore needs to be the cheapest.

    The problem is that at great distances through smoke or rain the laser might not be 100% reliable so they seem to have gone for a radio communication pulse to set it off which will work day and night and in any weather including dust storms (brown outs) and monsoon rain and heavy snow (white outs).

    From what I have seen on the subject they are going for airburst 30mm and 57mm shells which are vastly more effective than impact fuses.

    Regarding heavy weapons on the back of light vehicles, muzzle brakes on weapons can reduce the bounce but such light vehicles are going to move around anyway... even recoilless weapons like Grad trucks would move around during launch if they didn't have stabiliser legs dropped before firing.

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    Post  nomadski Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:25 am

    Agree about stable platform and muzzle break to reduce bounce and problem with lasers . Also think that radio maybe expensive to install on these fuses . The GPS guided shells prohibitively expensive , and thus useless . Need cheap solution for all shell sizes . I think if rate of rotation of shell increased by a kit ( fins )fitted to base of shell and vanes on a bearing on fuse , then shell rotate fast and generate many signals , the fuse head on bearing , remain rotationally fixed relative to body of shell and register rotations . In the short interval that shell above trench , many pulses (made by rotating magnets )generated for cheap electronic counter . Should be accurate .
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:56 am

    S-60 you are referring to shoots 57x348 ammo.
    Only two types of rounds were made for them, that is HE-T UOR-281 and AP-T UBR-281.
    Other countries (SU, China, Bulgaria, Yugo, Poland and Egypt) were producing their own derivatives, but there were no changes. "U" version contained A-IX-2, so was slightly more destructive.

    UOR has a MG57 or MG3-57 impact fuze.

    Ammunition usually is held in wooden boxes with fuzes already screwed, only covered with a protective cap or protective pin.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:15 am

    The value of very accurate detonation of the shell in an airburst mode is actually worth an increase in cost.

    The sensor is not complex or expensive... it does take up space, but it also makes the shells vastly more effective in the ground to air and ground to ground role.

    Firing at aerial targets most shots will not make direct contact with the target... especially small targets like drones, so having airburst shells that explode before they reach the target means the target can be covered in shrapnel damage by shells that would otherwise have missed and simply blown past doing no damage at all.

    The GPS guided shells prohibitively expensive , and thus useless .

    American GPS guided shells are expensive... Russian GLONASS guided shells make a lot of sense... the satellite receiver and electronics are tiny... most modern cellphones have such things and can be less than 100 dollars to buy.

    The 57mm calibre weapons would not benefit from satellite guidance but for artillery even just to space a volley fired at an enemy position sat nav would be useful to prevent the groups getting too spread out.

    For instance you could programme the first shell with the actual target or centre of target coordinates and programme each subsequent shell to grid areas around the point of targeting for the first shell so when they all land together they are spread out with evenly spread fragments and blast waves.

    Need cheap solution for all shell sizes

    Not really... the very small shells like 57mm and smaller are generally direct fire ammo and modern ammo from a dedicated vehicle like the 2S38 should be accurate enough most of the time... if there is a point target 8km away you want to hit then use a Kornet-EM.

    For heavier artillery then sat guidance and laser spot homing make sense without making the ammo too expensive.

    I think if rate of rotation of shell increased by a kit ( fins )fitted to base of shell and vanes on a bearing on fuse , then shell rotate fast and generate many signals , the fuse head on bearing

    The purpose of the rifling in the guns is to spin the shells... if you over stabilise them you get less accuracy, not better accuracy.

    Fins can be used to induce a slow roll like the RPG-7 rocket tail fins, but that is only to stop it veering off course...

    remain rotationally fixed relative to body of shell and register rotations . In the short interval that shell above trench , many pulses (made by rotating magnets )generated for cheap electronic counter . Should be accurate .

    They have already stated they are using radio command detonation and the new 2S38 vehicle has radar antenna mounted on it for the required signals.

    Such a system also improves aim by getting precise target data and also tracking outgoing rounds so accuracy should improve with use as well.

    S-60 you are referring to shoots 57x348 ammo.
    Only two types of rounds were made for them, that is HE-T UOR-281 and AP-T UBR-281.

    It was produced in enormous numbers and was designed to fire in mixed clips so you could fire HE and AP at the same time which means they couldn't make the HE round as powerful as they could make it because it had to have a similar weight and speed to the AP round so they both hit the same point of aim.

    Equally the AP round could not be very high velocity or a small penetrator dart like APDS or APFSDS because again aiming at the target one type of ammo would hit and the other would miss completely because of its totally different trajectory.

    With modern guns and digital fire control systems you could fire different types of rounds in bursts with the computer aiming the gun for each different round type.

    As I said before the AP ammo is fixed and the HE ammo is fixed... you can't change the fuse and therefore change its use.

    It is like AP and ball and tracer ammo for a rifle.

    With some heavier shells of larger calibre you can change the effect of the round with changes in fuse settings... for instance with 125mm rounds you can set the fuse to explode on contact or to delay the detonation till it is well inside a lighter vehicle or structure.

    The old stocks of 57mm ammo from Russian and Soviet stocks will be the two types Alamo mentions, but obviously for new guns and for new vehicles a lot of new ammo types are being developed and produced including APFSDS and HEDP and guided and air burst HE rounds...

    The new rounds will likely be more accurate and more effective in a range of different roles... but the cheap rounds will be useful too.

    The old rounds were designed for AA use only... they did have a 57mm gun for anti armour use but it was more powerful and used different ammo... 57 x 480mm, which is clearly bigger than the 57x348mm of the AA gun, but with plenty of the AA guns ammo and plenty of the AA guns they are clearly effective enough for them to keep using them... if accuracy is not good enough I would say modifying the vehicles they mount them on to lock the suspension or drop support legs or spades would be more effective and more efficient as the standard ammo could be used up without modification or needing more money spent on it.

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    Post  nomadski Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:33 pm


    Agree that very cost effective to fix the platform stability on Truck and addressing recoil climb of Barrel first . But I think a fuse in kit form can be made , as I described before , one that counts the rotation of shell body . I think this fuse can be mounted on the old fuse nose on site , and before firings . Arrangements can be made by geometry , that allow safety pin or cap removal , after installation of new fuse . You get distance detonation and impact detonation . I saw this video on YouTube and rotation of shell is fast ! It is about one revolution per three meters . This means no additional mods to shell , such as rear fins are needed . Just the add on new fuse . Maybe this idea is cheaper and can not be jammed or interfered with like laser of Radio . But for time being , as Alamo said , must put up with what comes out of the box .


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8YpELPaDew8

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:50 pm

    This thing was made for suppressive fire.
    It is spreading the ammo, because as you see they target a forest area.
    Ukro hideouts can be anywhere in that area.
    They can hit a pin point if needed, with single shots, direct fire for this gun is some 2000m.
    Indirect up to 8000.
    What worries me more, is a big % of ricochets and unexploded ammo.
    That is probably because of storage life - those fuzes were improved multiple times for water resistance.
    If you are improving ... and improving ... the point is that improvements do not work.
    Still, I wouldn't bother much, it is a suppressive fire artillery built from waste to deliver some punch at close to zero cost.
    The only thing that wonders me, is if the fuze is sensitive enough for the job.
    23x152 that is being used is very effective because the fuze is known to work even too much. It is being ignited by the forest. Russkie made a pro out of that, using it as anti-AT teams ammo of choice, raining them with splinters.


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    Post  nomadski Tue May 16, 2023 5:26 pm




    Can existing artillery round of say 152 mms , be fired from longer existing barrels or pipes bolted together , with higher pressure / slower burning , to reach 300- 500 km or even longer  range ? Cheaper than Rockets and Drones ? Like the Gerald Bull super- gun ?


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 17, 2023 12:03 am

    Still, I wouldn't bother much, it is a suppressive fire artillery built from waste to deliver some punch at close to zero cost.

    Not only is the old ammo already made so it is essentially free, by using it up you no longer need to store it and check it occasionally so you are reducing costs by not having to store it any more.

    Older ammo probably has not got ideal packing and storage standards and using it up is a rather good thing because old explosive can become dangerous.

    It would be a powerful round that will do a good job on most targets too.

    The whole reason for storing it is to be able to use it when you find a suitable use...

    Its effect on light vehicles would be impressive.

    Can existing artillery round of say 152 mms , be fired from longer existing barrels or pipes bolted together , with higher pressure / slower burning , to reach 300- 500 km or even longer  range ? Cheaper than Rockets and Drones ? Like the Gerald Bull super- gun ?

    The problem is the strength of the metal... just making the gun longer means the barrel near the chamber is under enormous pressure for a lot longer while the shell is in the barrel longer as it is propelled down the barrel.

    The old super heavy German rail guns actually had individually designed shells because with every shot fired the calibre of the gun increased and you had to fire them in the correct order or you might have problems.

    Long barrels and advanced propellants that get to high pressure limit of the barrel fast and then maintain that pressure till the shell has exited the weapon will give best performance... the thing is that water absorbs recoil best so naval guns is the easiest way to get a long range big power gun that is mobile and not a pain in the arse.

    Another way to get very long range projectiles is low drag like an APFSDS round but perhaps double the calibre and made of HE instead of a solid metal dart would combine minimum drag and increased velocity (because it is going to be lighter that a full calibre round it will accelerate down the barrel faster and when it leaves the barrel its smaller calibre means less drag... by making it longer you maximise its weight and minimise its frontal drag... a bit like an arrow... the longer the arrow is the heavier it is but being a narrow arrow its drag is relatively small.

    Conversely a balloon is large and very light so if you throw it it accelerates in your hand very quickly because it is so light but when you release it its enormous volume and its low mass means it slows down rapidly because it lacks momentum to push the air in front of it aside.

    In comparison throwing a golf ball it is small and relatively light so you can get it up to a good speed and its relatively small size and reasonable density means it maintains speed better than a balloon so it is easy to throw much further.

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    Post  nomadski Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:37 pm


    Had this idea of using the Bolas spider method in some way . Previous idea of rotating a charge above target to intercept incoming , not useful , since rotation must be too fast to capture incoming , therefore not practical . But , Bolas spider method can be used with drone , discharging a Rope with explosive Bolas . Can attack all Tanks and Artillery barrels , by twisting around barrel . The Rope can be thermal incendiary to burn through steel also . The idea of frangible Armour , like the Moth in this video for Tanks , and vehicles can be useful . Diverting the force of explosion , and detaching from vehicle body . What you think ?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9qw3lkpa5lY&pp=ygUMYm9sYXMgc3BpZGVy

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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:38 pm

    That spider is ugly.

    Are you suggesting the drones carry the bolas or the armoured vehicles use them to catch drones with their bolas?

    I think the core problem for the drones to use bolas is that it would be rather simpler to carry a PETAB-B 2.5kg shaped charge cluster munition used in cluster bombs to deal with enemy armour, except instead of having hundreds of them in each bomb or rocket, you could carry half a dozen in a drone and fly down a line of enemy armour dropping one munition onto each vehicle...

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    Post  nomadski Sat Aug 19, 2023 1:38 am

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ! God created man ( and woman ) in it's own image , and thinks of creation as beautiful ! These are ideas floating about in my mind . What I meant was not using a Bolas in defending but attacking . The advantage ? Not sure , but possibly almost 100% good chance of capturing the barrel of the  Tank instead of semi-accuracy of a dropped charge or poorly aimed charge and perhaps the low weight of Bolas Rope , enabling small back-pack UAV to carry it . How much do you need to cut the barrel by thermite Rope or charge ?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:12 am

    Swinging a bomb on a length of rope on a battlefield and that rope will catch everything... tree branches, fences, power poles, power lines, all sorts of things...

    The human launched bolos as a weapon is two or three weighted balls connected by rope or vine that is thrown in a way that the balls spin on the rope to entangle the legs of running animals for hunting... but the fact that they need to be accurately aimed to be useful means it might as well be a bomb or a gun...

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    Post  nomadski Sat Aug 19, 2023 3:19 pm





    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6N8KFl44GQE&pp=ygUfRHJvbmUgbWFuZXV2ZXJpbmcgdGhyb3VnaCB0cmVlcw%3D%3D


    Could be two types : First the one in this video , that targets specific objects , hidden Arty and Tank barrels . Second , as you said , one type that is discharged by Rocket and entangled everything for area clearance ! Best hold a man by his collar , before punching him in the face !
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 19, 2023 10:35 pm

    Explosive ropes launched by rockets is already used in mine clearance... the UR-77 fires a rocket... I think it is an old ATGM rocket that is fired from an armoured vehicle dragging a long tube of explosive... when the rocket lands the rope it dragged out containing HE is pulled to straighten it and then it is detonated to blow an 8M wide path in the soil for vehicles to drive through an minefield.

    During the current conflict in the Ukraine they have been using them against Ukrainian positions... the orcs have been digging trenches inside stands of trees to protect them from direct fire artillery... the shells hit the trees before they get to the trench and so the guys in the trenches are safe from the fragments because of the angles and distance away that the shells hit the trees at.

    The UR-77 lofts the explosive up into the air and it comes down amongst the trees and they don't pull it straight, they just set it off like a huge bomb... very effective.

    Two shots per vehicle before needing to reload.

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    Post  nomadski Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:52 am

    Looks like Russian Internet TV and Radio broadcasts in English, have been cut. I tried freeinternet TV, and open Radio and no luck. I am not sure if this rule exists only for Russia, or are all Internet broadcasts, other than in a country's national language, banned? In any case, I think that English is widely spoken, and an important target audience. Much more personal and detailed info, can be given through voice Radio. I miss Radio Moscow, English language broadcast in short wave Radio. I think Moscow can start SW, English language broadcasts, to break the monopoly of Internet, and get to many millions of listeners. What you think? Time to go back to short wave Radio?
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    Post  franco Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:18 pm

    nomadski wrote:Looks like Russian Internet TV and Radio broadcasts in English, have been cut. I tried freeinternet TV, and open Radio and no luck. I am not sure if this rule exists only for Russia, or are all Internet broadcasts, other than in a country's national language, banned? In any case, I think that English is widely spoken, and an important target audience. Much more personal and detailed info, can be given through voice Radio. I miss Radio Moscow, English language broadcast in short wave Radio. I think Moscow can start SW, English language broadcasts, to break the monopoly of Internet, and get to many millions of listeners. What you think? Time to go back to short wave Radio?

    WEF have been encouraging all of it's minions to get their National Laws in order to control both public media and social media to prevent "fake news" from confusing the masses. Part of the "master plan". Try a neutral country or BRICS IPN address to gain access... I had to.

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    Post  nomadski Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:56 pm

    The information war ! Internet was stopped by both sides , and both sides resorted to Radio . The BBC restarting short wave into Russia , and Russia and Ukraine broadcasting for each other in LW ? SW ? By the way things are going , expect the physical cables to be cut , or satellites to loose orbit fast ! Then what ? Well the side that gets the message out there , is well ahead . Most people in the world have access to a Radio set . During the cold war , despite attempts to jam the SW Radio , both sides managed to broadcast . If an antenna are hit, new one can be put up quickly , unlike cables or satellite internet ! People coming out of a nuclear bunker , will turn on their Radio first . So for many reasons , SW English language broadcasts should start , people should be told to keep Radios close , or buy a set for emergencies !

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=52eNrXa8M9Q&pp=ygUzT3V0IG9mIG51Y2xlYXIgYnVua2VyIGxpc3RlbmluZyB0byBzaG9ydCB3YXZlIHJhZGlv

    Edit : Also with cyber attacks , becoming a fact of life , then secondary control systems , manual or simple mechanical , should exist . So vehicle traffic or Air traffic , power and water computerised control , could not be affected or shut down . Sensitive systems in nuclear power stations etc , should not be connected to internet , so it could be infected like stuxnet . The same with stock- exchange and Banks .
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    Post  Begome Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:13 pm

    Here's how you can circumvent much of the Western online censorship (e.g. for webpages, such as RT):

    1. Use Firefox
    2. Open Settings in Firefox
    3. Select the Privacy & Security category on the left
    4. Scroll all the way down
    5. In the section "Enable secure DNS using:" choose "Increased Protection"
    6. In the "Choose provider" choicebox choose "Custom"
    7. Enter either "https://unicast.uncensoreddns.org/dns-query" there if you're in Denmark or a neighboring country to Denmark, otherwise enter "https://anycast.uncensoreddns.org/dns-query"

    You have just configured Firefox to only use a non-censoring DNS server via an encrypted connection for all DNS requests, which will undo the majority of online-censorship, as it's usually implemented via DNS-blocking.

    You can also set this up in your router so that your entire home network uses that DNS server, not just that particular Firefox browser, but not all routers can do that and the way it's done varies from router to router...note that you have to set it up as an encrypted connection (DNS-over-HTTPS). You can also use "anycast.uncensoreddns.org:853" if setting it up as DNS-over-TLS.

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    Post  ahmedfire Sun Oct 29, 2023 4:17 am

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    Something that confused me a little , the below video from IDF showing the Israeli aircraft shooting down which they claimed as Houthi drone .

    The interception was near to the Egyptian city Nuweiba , actually some debris has fallen on the city as the width of the sea here is small , around 14km .

    Both Egypt and Israel said the interception was over the sea outside the Egyptian borders , so i guess the horizon view on the video is misleading as we can see the terrain mountain  which give the impression the incident was not over the sea .

    As per the video the height started from 12000 ft to 4500 ft  at the interception point , how a way could the debris fall ?

    A small change on the horizontal angle will change greatly the horizon view and the angle down where you can see what exactly you are flying over so it's tricky to know if this interception over the sea or the terrain . 

    Any thoughts ?




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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:21 am

    What happens to a tank's optics when the tank is hit by a HEAT round or an APFSDS? Does it typically get destroyed/damaged after such a hit?
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:36 pm


    Any thoughts ?

    I suspect neither side wanted to investigate or do anything about it so they both claimed it happened in international waters.

    A drone is just an unmanned aircraft so shooting it down could mean anything from shattered it into tiny pieces that then flutter to the ground, to punched an enormous number of holes through the aircraft but not breaking it structurally so it starts to descend and cannot recover till it hits the ground.

    The first means it would probably hit the ground relatively close to where it was hit and the bits flutter downwards, while the second could lead to the wreckage being found enormous distances away and large bits being found intact.

    Remember most AAMs are designed to shoot down large aircraft and use a proximity fuse to explode before impact to direct fragments to damage a target it is not able to actually make contact with. When used against very small targets sometimes you don't hit anything of importance.

    What happens to a tank's optics when the tank is hit by a HEAT round or an APFSDS? Does it typically get destroyed/damaged after such a hit?

    HEAT and APFSDS are both designed to make a small (narrow) penetration though an enormous amount of armour, so if it hits a tank it will punch deeply into the target, but if you think about a motor car... get a javelin and punch that through the car... if it hits your instrument panel then it is going to make a hole, but if it doesn't hit it then it likely wont do too much damage at all... except if the car/tank catches fire and then damage can be caused to most components of the vehicle depending on what explodes and how long it burns.
    nomadski
    nomadski


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    Post  nomadski Mon Apr 15, 2024 7:59 pm

    Question for nuclear experts : Israelis may strike Iran nuclear facility . But these are underground , and normal Earth penetrating does not work . They may use borrowed American bunker buster mini - nukes Earth penetrating missiles . But of course they will deny it . Can the radiation and fission / fusion products be hidden in the background radiation from a destroyed nuclear facility or reactor  ? I think it should . But is it easy to prove ?

    Rolling Eyes

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