Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Μilitary Questions & Answers

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28085
    Points : 28615
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:35 am

    Most of the time cloud will make such weapons ineffective if they are optically or IR guided...

    Don't know about the 32km range Spike but the shorter range models are very slow... like Javelin...

    Early model Igla without proximity fuse has about a 50% kill rate in tests with slow moving AT-3 target missiles... which are similar speed and slightly smaller than Javelin or Spike missiles... When fitted with proximity fuses the kill rate went up to over 90% because they no longer had to make direct contact to set off the MANPADS warhead so a 5cm miss will still destroy the target.

    APS systems should be able to engage such threats and basic camouflage and decoys should be useful too...

    Poland could have 1,000 F-22s, it wouldn't make any difference... Russia has no reason to invade... any military interaction will be Russian nukes destroying US forces and US bases in Poland and likely the major cities too just to eliminate a threat.

    Russian SHORAD expects intense ECM... they have optical backup for most of there SAMs and guns...

    32km range ATGMs with drones are a potent threat... just like Russian 100km range ATGMs and drones will be to HATO.

    How many working tanks does HATO even have?

    LMFS likes this post

    nomadski
    nomadski

    Posts : 1316
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2017-01-02

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  nomadski Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:23 am

    They claim fire and explosion happened, during service of ship in the well area. ( Area containing the floating Dock).  I have some questions, about this claim. If anyone knows, can answer please.

    ( 1 ) Ship was docked at port for sometime. Is it likely it carried live ammo still, that could catch fire?

    ( 2 )  Was there any planes or helicopters on deck at that time?

    ( 3 ) What is position of boiler and Turbine , in relation to fire?

    ( 4 )  What fuel is used?  Does it ignite with naked flame or spark?

    ( 5 ) Does position of and colour of smoke correspond to fire below deck in fuel tank?

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/07/12/navy-ship-fire-san-diego-uss-bonhomme-richard-sot-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/top-news-videos/

    If it turns out to be accidental, then no more questions. But if not, then two possibility. Either it was Usrael false flag or Iranian retaliation. I think the attack on Natanz more likely Usrael. Since the Americans had a headache recently in Assad base. Also it is the tail that wags the dog. Usrael has great advantage to drag Yanks into war. Not the other way around. Also unlikely that, even if attack on Natanz was from Americans, then this response from Iran at this stage would be  escalation. Remember the response from Iran, for Soliemani, far worse situation, was very limited. No attack on American soil. These are somethings the Iranians are less likely to miscalculate.

    I think the attacks in Iran, were done by man portable devices. Small drones do not have the warhead size. But 120 mm GPS guided mortar, has the range and type of damage inflicted. It is also pre - programmable and not too large. Enabling indirect fire from hilly area.  Also accuracy low, as evident from hit on corner, and not centre of building. The Iranians, should be able to recover fragments. I think if these are Usrael, then they should present evidence to Trump and the world.  And if evidence of false flag also presented. He will be in hot water with his Usrael friends. But if the evidence is proof of yank involvement, then they should not present evidence. ( if in practice they will expell them) Irrespective of if this incident is termed accident or otherwise. In that case just help Yanks out of ME region.  IMHO.

    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/07/14/2306847/irgc-quds-force-chief-us-navy-ship-fire-result-of-washington-crimes

    Here at least, Iran is denying involvement. But also saying this to be no accident. Therefore they say it is false flag by Americans themselves. Although I don't rule out Usrael  involvement.

    Iran simply did not have enough time to analyse the Natanz attack and decide what action to take. And I doubt they would act rashly or hastily.  ( And this explosion came way too quickly and conveniently.) Iran would especially not  attack on US on own soil. So it is important to find cause. Because the Neocons could cover up sabotage by own CIA forces or Usrael false flag. Then they will try to blame Iran for it. American sailors must provide evidence to a world body or press, about any info on possible false flag ops. This increasing likely, if explosion inside ship was cause. And not attack on deck. The latter could possibly be Iranian. But Iran has no capability to attack inside ship. But  Zionist sympathisers or yank CIA Neocon Pompeo or themselves do have access to inside of ship.

    Edit : since it has been decided rightly to strike openly and directly at USA. Then this should be done after open display of detterent by Iran. And strike limited to Americans in neutral territory of open waters.
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1533
    Points : 1707
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  ahmedfire Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:39 pm

    I was collecting some data regarded GPS guided munitions and i have a questions here Smile

    Before Glonass ,did Russia ever has tested GPS guided bombs ?

    If yes ,these kits had supposed to work with Coarse Acquisition (C/A-code) because AFAIK the  P-code is designed for US authorized military users ,so what was the CEP for the Russian GPS bomb ?

    I'm wondering if the C/A code could be sufficient for a good CEP ,so that the exported russian platforms (like Mig and Sukhoi to Egypt ) could use this signal for precision guided munitions (if Glonass wasn't available) along with INS and IIR or other guide kits ,at least using the C/A code for mid course and leave the final targeting to other kits .

    Scalp missile is supposed to use GPS in mid course too (i'm not sure the P code could be available for Egyptian Rafale ,so the missile GPS kit is there but would work may be on C/A code only !)

    The French AASM INS/GPS , Once the coordinates have been entered in the weapon, the INS enable it to hit the target without requiring a GPS signal, if it is unavailable. And the IIR version would allows the bomb to recalculate its trajectory during the last few seconds prior to impact using image recognition algorithms.

    So ,what is the need for the military GPS signal if we can use the civilian one in the mid-course and then other kits will complete the job ! or we can use only INS for mid course . Is it all about jamming resistance and more little accuracy ? scratch

    Actually Iran has produced a GPS/INS version of it's Ghassed bomb which means they got a good CEP using C/A code but at the end GPS could be turned off there as US did over Georgia .
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28085
    Points : 28615
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:31 am

    Before Glonass ,did Russia ever has tested GPS guided bombs ?

    They didn't have access to the military signals of Navstar, and in times of conflict the civilian signal is normally not accurate enough and also was turned off.

    The US control Navstar and can turn areas off as they please... which makes it useless for military purposes.

    If yes ,these kits had supposed to work with Coarse Acquisition (C/A-code) because AFAIK the P-code is designed for US authorized military users ,so what was the CEP for the Russian GPS bomb ?

    They didn't make any.

    I'm wondering if the C/A code could be sufficient for a good CEP ,so that the exported russian platforms (like Mig and Sukhoi to Egypt ) could use this signal for precision guided munitions (if Glonass wasn't available) along with INS and IIR or other guide kits ,at least using the C/A code for mid course and leave the final targeting to other kits .

    If you were going to use Russian systems it makes no sense to then sabotage that by using US sourced and control guidance channels... once the decision is made the US could and would turn off the civilian signal where and when they like... they did it in Georgia in 8 8 08... and any conflict the US didn't approve of they could do it over Israel and Egypt and Libya etc etc.

    Scalp missile is supposed to use GPS in mid course too (i'm not sure the P code could be available for Egyptian Rafale ,so the missile GPS kit is there but would work may be on C/A code only !)

    I am guessing the intertial nav system on Scalp would be pretty good and with terminal homing... not getting a GPS fix on the way wont hurt it much at all... just possibly more manouvering needed in the latter stages of the attack.

    So ,what is the need for the military GPS signal if we can use the civilian one in the mid-course and then other kits will complete the job ! or we can use only INS for mid course . Is it all about jamming resistance and more little accuracy ?

    The Civilian signal might not be there when you need it...

    Actually Iran has produced a GPS/INS version of it's Ghassed bomb which means they got a good CEP using C/A code but at the end GPS could be turned off there as US did over Georgia .

    Well it all depends if GPS means navstar or just what it says... global positioning system... which could be the US or Russian or Chinese or European systems and any combination of their civilian signals...

    Normally when you take off on a mission you zero your navigation system at a fixed point at the airfield that is known with extreme precision.

    At which point you can look at where the GLONASS receiver says you are and a Navstar receiver says you are and a Galileo receiver says you are... and the combined results give you an average figure... the average figure error from where you know you actually are can be used to calculate the actual figure when you are in flight on the way to the target area making it much more accurate than any civilian system on its own.... on or off.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 7245
    Points : 7231
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  Isos Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:03 am

    Russia will jamm GPS 24/7 in any conflict anyway. Why would they use it then ?
    ahmedfire
    ahmedfire

    Posts : 1533
    Points : 1707
    Join date : 2010-11-11
    Location : The Land Of Pharaohs

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  ahmedfire Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:03 am

    They didn't have access to the military signals of Navstar, and in times of conflict the civilian signal is normally not accurate enough and also was turned off.

    I've read before that civilian GPS could be used effectively if it could be used along with a good INS for mid-course and additional guidance kits for last stage.

    You can save the coordinates of the highly important bases or fixed target of your enemy like big early warning radars and use them at war time by uploading  them at bombs computers and with the help from INS it will find their way to the targets even if the GPS was interrupted or jammed ,with additional final stage kits ,you will score a good CEP .

    Also using diffrential GPS would make it better .

    If you were going to use Russian systems it makes no sense to then sabotage that by using US sourced and control guidance channels... once the decision is made the US could and would turn off the civilian signal where and when they like... they did it in Georgia in 8 8 08... and any conflict the US didn't approve of they could do it over Israel and Egypt and Libya etc etc.

    I guess it's better to use both systems combined .

    I am guessing the intertial nav system on Scalp would be pretty good and with terminal homing... not getting a GPS fix on the way wont hurt it much at all... just possibly more manouvering needed in the latter stages of the attack.
    That's what i thought too , improving the INS and adding other guidance kits to correct the coordinates that was uploaded during launch time even if it was completely wrong .


    Russia will jamm GPS 24/7 in any conflict anyway. Why would they use it then ?

    I was searching for anyone who has used the civilian signal and to which level it could be accurate .

    Isos ,do you have any informations about the GPS guidance kit on SCALP if it use automatically the GPS military signal or it needs some kind of decryption or authentication which US only provide ? I mean if Egypt launched the SCALP now ,will it use the P code or it's not allowed by ITAR or other US shit  censored  and only it will use C/A code ?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28085
    Points : 28615
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:56 am

    Russia will jamm GPS 24/7 in any conflict anyway. Why would they use it then ?

    Even if they don't, if the US even suspects Russian military personel might be using civilian Navstar receivers they will turn it off in that area for the duration of the conflict.

    Right now I would think part of Ratnik one will be GLONASS receivers for navigation so every Russian soldier already has access to location data from GLONASS satellites at the very least. It probably uses signals from Navstar and the other two networks but wont be dependent on them because they could be turned off without warning anyway.

    AFAIK Navstar doesn't work above certain speeds and altitudes and probably would not work anywhere near an Israeli nuclear reactor or US military base in the US for instance...

    I've read before that civilian GPS could be used effectively if it could be used along with a good INS for mid-course and additional guidance kits for last stage.

    Inertial navigation systems use precise timers and accelerometers to measure speed and angle and drift... over time they lose accuracy but you can compensate for that. A terrain comparison guidance system looks at the target area for features like hill tops or identifyable bends in rivers or where roads fork into two or more rivers or roads. When programming a cruise missile attack you look at where the enemies known air defence systems are and so if there is a row of low hills nearby you would plan to fly on the other side of those out of view of the air defence systems. Say along the line of hills there is a river valley your missile can turn down to get to its target... the river valley is a fixed point so no matter how far the missile has flown to get there once it gets there it can now accurately pinpoint its position. If on the other side of those hills having come through the river valley there is a hard left turn and your target is right there it is an ideal way to send the missile because as the missile heads down the river valley when it gets to the end it can see its position in the air in relation to that point and calculate its exact position in 3D space... a hard left turn and the target should be right there... no need for satellite signals.

    Flying down a road or river was how pilots used to navigate across country... with a map on their knee and a stopwatch they could fly on a heading for x number of seconds at y speed and work out where they should end up on the map and then look around on the map to see what should be visible from there... and so then you fly there and look to see if you can see what you should be able to see.... for instance are you between two tall peaks, or flying over a 5 road intersection... or is there a large area of planted fields to your left or whatever.

    For a missile... check the air pressure and then send a super weak radio signal to the ground to determine your height above ground and with the air pressure determine your height above sea level... does that match the land height where you are currently flying.... look around you.... do the highest points of ground match the terrain around you on your digital map.... if you have a GLONASS signal check that too.

    You can save the coordinates of the highly important bases or fixed target of your enemy like big early warning radars and use them at war time by uploading them at bombs computers and with the help from INS it will find their way to the targets even if the GPS was interrupted or jammed ,with additional final stage kits ,you will score a good CEP .

    These days with cheap storage you can upload a complete 3D map of the terrain heights in the region and based on the location at launch from the aircraft carrying you you could work out where the target is and a useful flight path to get there... a jet powered cruise missile is just an unmanned plane really and the targeting system its autopilot.

    Also using diffrential GPS would make it better .

    If it is on... yes.

    Most modern civilian GPS devices use both Navstar and GLONASS... because both receivers are cheap and it makes it more accurate to use both.

    That's what i thought too , improving the INS and adding other guidance kits to correct the coordinates that was uploaded during launch time even if it was completely wrong .

    Modern ring laser gyros are so accurate if you put it on a table it could detect the rotation of the earth. They use fibre optic cables and are very accurate...

    Having points on your flight path where precision can reset the error clock to zero of course makes it even better.

    Isos ,do you have any informations about the GPS guidance kit on SCALP if it use automatically the GPS military signal or it needs some kind of decryption or authentication which US only provide ? I mean if Egypt launched the SCALP now ,will it use the P code or it's not allowed by ITAR or other US shit censored and only it will use C/A code ?

    I don't know, but would suspect the whole purpose of Gallieo is that either the europeans can get guaranteed access to the military Navstar codes, or they don't fully trust the US. Either way I would suspect a European missile would use both european and US GPS for better accuracy and redundancy.

    ahmedfire likes this post


    Sponsored content

    Μilitary Questions & Answers - Page 10 Empty Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:15 pm