U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

miketheterrible wrote:

kvs wrote:The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types.   Forcing
smaller engines is just begging for problems.   Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
is creeping in.  All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut.   Except that the engineers are not making
more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.  

Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes?  I mean, how much cheaper?

I do not think for the army this is an issue.   Russia could just allocate fuel to it since Russia produces the fuel and extracts
the oil.   Smaller transport craft have some value in that they can use smaller runways and do save on fuel if it's subject to market
pricing.   But they need properly sized engines and not hacks.

GarryB wrote:

You don't hear much about its big sister though - VK-1600. It was supposed to begin bench test trials late this year.

Wasn't that engine going to be used in the new Il-112 or Il-114 light aircraft?

No. The engine of the Il-112V is the Klimov TV7-117ST turboprop with 2,610 kW (3,500 hp) each.

Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes? I mean, how much cheaper?

The maintenance on the aircraft and the facilities that house them are probably where the big difference in operating cost comes from.

The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types. Forcing
smaller engines is just begging for problems. Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
is creeping in. All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut. Except that the engineers are not making
more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.

Klimov does have a PDV-4000 (~4000kW engine) in development. But it is a long way off; they've talked about it being a step change with technology. Klimov in recent years has prioritized programs that could be quickly completed, given the deterioration of Ukrainian supply options. So they've modernized the VK-2500, and worked to build the VK-650 and VK-1600. The later are really just scaled versions of the VK-800 which are more optimized for modern production processes like 3d printing. And then, of course, they've tried to stretch the TV7.

They've always had a desire to implement full next generation designs...but resources. And not just financial. Time is important too.

Regarding the VK-1600 I only found this:

https://rostec.ru/en/news/klimov-presents-design-of-vk-1600v-engine/?sphrase_id=304442

The recent crash of the light transport prototype shows that Russia needs to introduce new heavier class engine types.

No it doesn't... the aircraft crashed because the engine that failed didn't feather and the thrust on one wing from the running engine and the high drag from the props on the stalled other engine caused the aircraft to roll and crash into the ground.

What it needed was an auto feathering system that worked faster.

Having engines that are too powerful just make them less efficient and more expensive to operate.

Forcing
smaller engines is just begging for problems.

The engine was not under powered, the problem was the prop blades didn't feather.

Some whip cracking needs to be done since the western parasite corporate culture
is creeping in. All of the sudden everything is so expensive and corners need to be cut. Except that the engineers are not making
more money and the cost of raw materials has not jumped.

Obviously firing everyone involved is the best solution so that they can make all the same mistakes again because of a lack of experience of the new team who are only doing the job because the preferred team got fired.

Engine problems are very specific... why should the entire management team be fired because of such a problem?

Is it really that more expensive to fly an Il-76 than that of these other smaller planes? I mean, how much cheaper?

A combination of rather more expensive, but also involving unable to operate from more isolated airstrips too.

It is simply not practical to just have big aircraft.

Would you trade in the family car for a 50 seater bus?

Get all the groceries in one trip for all your friends and family... for a month.

The best way to ruin an aircraft design is to give it the wrong engines.... more power is just stupid and wont solve the fundamental problem.... the aircraft rolled over because of the thrust from one side and the drag from the other side... extra power would have made no difference to what happened, while a propeller that feathered properly when shut down would have saved the aircraft because it would be able to fly with one engine running.

RUSNANO has developed a wear resistant coating for composite fans for aircraft engines.

Specialists of Plakart, a member of RUSNANO Group, in less than 5 months developed a wear-resistant coating for the feather ends of the blades of the PD-35 ultra-large thrust engine compressor, the Group's press service reported.

The new coating is planned to be used on promising wide-body aircraft - long-haul passenger and heavy transport aircraft, including the Russian-Chinese airliner CR929.

The creation of a new PD-35 aircraft engine is being implemented within the framework of the state program "Development of the Aviation Industry". It is based on breakthrough technologies, innovative solutions and new materials.

As part of the support for the implementation of a key project in the field of domestic civil aircraft construction, more than 44.6 billion rubles were allocated by order of the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Mikhail Mishustin.

Plakart JSC is a portfolio company of RUSNANO JSC, established in 2010 to implement a project to create a network of innovative centers for the production of nanocoatings by methods of gas-thermal spraying and surfacing. Plakart performs work both in its own workshops located in the Moscow region, Perm, Tyumen, Nizhny Novgorod, and Naberezhnye Chelny, and at the site of installation and operation of equipment throughout Russia and the CIS.

https://aviation21.ru/v-rosnano-razrabotano-iznosostojkoe-pokrytie-dlya-aviacionnyx-dvigatelej-novyx-rossijskix-samolyotov/

PD-35 flight tests scheduled for 2024, certification in 2027.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2021/12/28/17251/

CIAM summed up the results of 2021

The article linked below covers their activities for the year (work on PD-8 and PD-35 engine cores, VK-650 bench test, PD-14 volcanic ash test, small engine development, as well as the hybrid powerplant flying on the Yak-40LL), their education work, and future activities. An interesting tidbit is that the product 30 engine is not discussed at all.

Deputy General Director for Science Alexander Lanshin made an interesting remark: "Although this year is an intermediate one, a year of preparation for a decisive leap, we managed to achieve a number of significant results." This suggests much more will come in 2022-2023.

He mentions a few things not seen yet such as a fan with ultra-low circumferential speed (sounds like a geared fan), hydrogen fuel tests, and ceramic bearings (which need very little lubrication and can even last for years with none).

https://aviation21.ru/v-ciam-podveli-itogi-2021-goda/

VK-1600V

UEC-Aviadvigatel teams won two awards for Aircraft Builder of the Year on December 20th. The first was for the category "For an effective system of aftersale service of the locally produced aviation equipment" and it was won on the basis of their work in developing a means to repair/restore high pressure turbine blades made of Rhenium-Tantalum strengthened superalloy ZHS32-VI with laser powder deposition. The second was for the category "For the creation of a new technology" and it was won on the basis of their work in automating full-cycle testing for turbofan engines.

https://avid.ru/en/news/2021/12/24/2123/

Isos wrote:What is the  goal of this engine ?

6th gen fighter. It was already said that they were developing it based on the gas generator of the izd. 30 and that it would keep the same footprint of the AL-31/izd. 30

Isos wrote:But what are those 3 circuits about ? Subsonic supersonic hypersonic modes ?

They allow to create a variable cycle engine which has a great flexibility to be economic at low speed (max bypass flow) or very powerful for supercruising (all the air through the core), at the same time. Besides it allows to reduce spillage drag and helps with the cooling of the plane, among other advantages. Every major power is working on them currently for the new generation of fighters.

two versions hmmmm? guess anyone' guess is good as mine on what those 2 aircrafts will be perhaps? I know the bottom one is going to be fucking fast because it says "high supersonic" would mach 3-4 be pushing it?

Are they developing a ramjet or a scramjet engine for their next generation interceptor?

you will get more questions than answers, 1. there was alot of detonation engine news for aircrafts so neither ram or scramjet engines. 2. it appears theres a regular and a high supersonic 3 circuit engines and the mig-41 or next gen interceptor had claims of mach 3-4(which counts as being called high supersonic) so I am assuming one will be used for a 6th gen and the other perhaps for the mig-41 since we have two different versions?

Their current problems particularly in production of transport planes is lack of a range of different engines in different thrust categories... they are solving that by making new engine designs that can be scaled to different thrust levels to suit different jobs.

Hopefully they will do the same with these new types of engines... certainly a supercruising fighter is interesting, but a supercruising drone would be a real challenge too... though a variable cycle engine for a drone might be a bit of overkill... maybe small turbofans to get it airborne and a separate ramjet for efficient sustained supersonic flight.

Certainly the flight performance demands for a fighter and an interceptor are different in the same way the requirements for the MiG-25 and Su-27 were different and the MiG-31 and Su-35 are different, and of course the MiG-41 and Su-57 will be different too... which is not to say that flying fast is not useful for fighters, but it is very important for interceptors to be able to meet the incoming threat further out from its targets.

Most fighters don't fly around at anywhere near top speed because you have to go full AB in straight and level flight to accelerate to such speeds, and it reduces your flight range and endurance and your ability to manouver.

Posting this again for reference:



The basis of the new Russian military engines for tactical planes is the gas generator of the izd. 30. That is the technological baseline for the current developments, the same AL-31F was the reference for the 4th gen.

An engine for the PAK-DP can be developed using this core. It can be many things, since we don't have the TTZ of the program. But if high supersonic flight was required, a concept similar to RTA or an after burning VCE would seem appropriate and able to deliver up to 4 M

As to the 3 streams engine, its gas generator would be based also in the izd. 30 but with further improvements, plus the bypass circuit and low pressure sections would be changed. It allows for more flexibility than a 2 stream VCE and is widely considered the kind of engine that will power the 6th gen fighters.

Refractory "armor" of Samara scientists will extend the life and reliability of aircraft and rocket engines #Двигателестроение Roman Barsky Yesterday at 03:30 1255 0 Scientists of samara National Research University named after ak. S.P. Korolev came up with a coating to protect the structural elements of rocket and aircraft engines at extremely high temperatures. Refractory "armor" will prevent the destruction of the internal surfaces of nozzles and combustion chambers, turbine blades and other parts at a temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius. "This will significantly increase the service life and reliability of rocket and aircraft engines, gas pumping and power generating installations, as well as microgas turbine engines used on unmanned aerial vehicles," explained the author of the project Mikhail Giorbelidze. In structure, the coating resembles chain mail, consisting of layers of flat scales, which are specially located and fastened to each other. The thickness of all chain mail is less than half a millimeter. Inside the individual "scales" is a protective layer of material that does not allow aggressive components from the environment to penetrate to the engine parts. After the aircraft engine works out 25 thousand hours (this is the operational life between repair work), specialists check the condition of the coating and the engine element. If necessary, the coating can be applied again and used for another 25 thousand hours. There can be two or three such cycles of use, so the savings, taking into account the cost of engine parts, are tens of millions. After refining the technology, scientists will create prototypes of the coating for testing

Источник контента: https://naukatehnika.com/ogneupornaya-bronya-samarskix-uchenyix-prodlit-resurs-i-nadezhnost-aviaczionnyix-i-raketnyix-dvigatelej.html
naukatehnika.com

thegopnik wrote:Refractory "armor" of Samara scientists will extend the life and reliability of aircraft and rocket engines #Двигателестроение Roman Barsky Yesterday at 03:30 1255 0 Scientists of samara National Research University named after ak. S.P. Korolev came up with a coating to protect the structural elements of rocket and aircraft engines at extremely high temperatures. Refractory "armor" will prevent the destruction of the internal surfaces of nozzles and combustion chambers, turbine blades and other parts at a temperature of 1500 degrees Celsius.   "This will significantly increase the service life and reliability of rocket and aircraft engines, gas pumping and power generating installations, as well as microgas turbine engines used on unmanned aerial vehicles," explained the author of the project Mikhail Giorbelidze.   In structure, the coating resembles chain mail, consisting of layers of flat scales, which are specially located and fastened to each other. The thickness of all chain mail is less than half a millimeter. Inside the individual "scales" is a protective layer of material that does not allow aggressive components from the environment to penetrate to the engine parts.   After the aircraft engine works out 25 thousand hours (this is the operational life between repair work), specialists check the condition of the coating and the engine element. If necessary, the coating can be applied again and used for another 25 thousand hours. There can be two or three such cycles of use, so the savings, taking into account the cost of engine parts, are tens of millions.     After refining the technology, scientists will create prototypes of the coating for testing

Источник контента: https://naukatehnika.com/ogneupornaya-bronya-samarskix-uchenyix-prodlit-resurs-i-nadezhnost-aviaczionnyix-i-raketnyix-dvigatelej.html
naukatehnika.com

This is good news, although mods should probably move this to the proper thread:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7152-u-e-c-russian-aircraft-engines

bac112 wrote:

introduce yourself pls here:

https://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules