Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

That makes sense as Pantsir basically replaces the existing Kashtan-M.

I would assume they would also upgrade the Klintok to take the new longer range smaller missiles of the TOR-M3 system too, and of course upgrade the electronics and sensors that go with it..

BTW

The war in Syria has no economical benefit for the US population.

Actually the US taking half of Syria means Qatar can pipe gas through Iraq and Syria to Turkey and counter Russian gas sales to Europe.

Of course the US forces getting kicked out of half of Syria could allow Iran to build gas and/or oil pipes through Syria to Turkey too but Iran and Turkey are not best buddies ATM.

Of course Russia and the EU aren't best buddies either but they take their gas because it is cheaper....

Meanwhile in China....

Gess you can call it the third vessel in the Kuznetsov-class.

Good for them... it will be useful in their future conflict against the US...

I'm confused, they said the repair/upgrade was scaled back to just engines, now they're talking about missiles & Pantsir-M again, so full repair/upgrade is back on?

New versions of naval TOR (smaller and longer ranged new models allow twice as many in the same volume of space) and new model Pantsir would be good...

I'm inclined to the idea that Pantsir-M removes the need for Tor -> replace with Redut giving a solid area umbrella.
Have seen some rumors they're going to put in Poliment-Redut so if not in place of the Kinzhal/Tor then where could it go?
If they do upgrade the Kinzhal they could cut down Pantsir-Ms to 1 per corner to free up space I guess.

It'd be cool to see it get a full engine + UKSK + Poliment-Redut + Pantsir-M upgrade

Side point: we had some discussion of Kashtan being paired with a search radar in other thread which got me wondering about K: What search radar do the Kashtans pair with?
If as we're led to believe the Mars-Passat doesn't work then the only air search radar is apparently a Fregat, yet we've seen the Kashtan (& even Ak-630s) paired with Positiv on other ships that have Fregat which implies its for a good reason -> whats the deal?

I'm inclined to the idea that Pantsir-M removes the need for Tor -> replace with Redut giving a solid area umbrella.
Have seen some rumors they're going to put in Poliment-Redut so if not in place of the Kinzhal/Tor then where could it go?
If they do upgrade the Kinzhal they could cut down Pantsir-Ms to 1 per corner to free up space I guess.

The original Kirovs had both Kashtan and Klintok.... the Russian air bases in Syria have Pantsir and TOR... the Russian army units have Tunguska and TOR... traditionally they both operate together... and of course Kuznetsov has kashtans and klintoks too.

It is certainly possible they might think PR might replace the TOR system, but I suspect PR might be expanded to replace Rif... on the Kirov upgrades and expanded to include larger SAMs as well to become a sort of universal SAM system with missiles from Morfei and the 60km and 150km range S-350 up to full sized S-400 missiles.

If they do put P-R on the Kuz, then I suspect it will be loaded mostly with Morfei and the 60km range missile for mostly close in defence... note with a Ka-31 airborne the 60km range active radar homing 9m96 missile could engage sea skimming missiles out to near max range... that is a quite effective defensive ring...

It'd be cool to see it get a full engine + UKSK + Poliment-Redut + Pantsir-M upgrade

Totally agree... I think with its engine issues dealt with it will sail around a lot more, which will expose the need for friendly foreign bases and a few more larger support vessels...

Side point: we had some discussion of Kashtan being paired with a search radar in other thread which got me wondering about K: What search radar do the Kashtans pair with?
If as we're led to believe the Mars-Passat doesn't work then the only air search radar is apparently a Fregat, yet we've seen the Kashtan (& even Ak-630s) paired with Positiv on other ships that have Fregat which implies its for a good reason -> whats the deal?

Well with the new phased array radars appearing on the Corvettes perhaps they are ready with AESAs... it really does not matter where the source of the target data comes from, as long as the gun mount knows where to point to find the target it can use the tracking radar to rapidly acquire the target/s and engage.

In terms of scanning for targets an AESA is vastly more efficient than any other type of search radar...

I don't see any reason why the Mars Passat array should not be working.... it should either be fixed by now or should have been replaced with something that does work... it is actually smaller than many of the phased array radars used in the land based S-300 and S-400 family of radars... I would think the best option would be to adapt the system developed for the S-500 for all large cruisers and carriers...

Note in a land based Pantsir battery of 6-8 vehicles it is very unlikely they would all be blasing radio waves with all their search radars going at once... one or two could do scan intermittently and pass on the target data to the other vehicles... more importantly the other vehicles could passively listen for radar reflections coming from places that are not returned to the source radar... ie stealth aircraft redirecting energy away from the emitter might reveal themselves to other nodes in the network...

Generally one vehicle will be the command vehicle and will collate the target data and assign vehicles to targets based on their location, the target type, and ammo levels.

What search radar do the Kashtans pair with?

I may have a resolution to this question.


Top right dome looks like a Positiv to me & there is one on the diagonal opposite side of the island too -> 360 coverage

Couple of recent pics of K


Boiler

hoom wrote:Couple of recent pics of K
Boiler

It looks like some kind of fire damage occurred.

Vladimir79 wrote:

hoom wrote:Couple of recent pics of K
Boiler

It looks like some kind of fire damage occurred.  

To me it looks like neglectance in MRO.

Vladimir79 wrote:

hoom wrote:Couple of recent pics of K
Boiler

It looks like some kind of fire damage occurred.  

Looks like someone needs to get fired.

Fire, damage and overuse and bad design

The Kuznetov, was never meant to remain in service this long even when it was brand new they had issues with the boiler. Hopefully, the one they replace it within won't come with the same problems but now I wonder how else the inside of that ship looks. It's going to need alot of work alright.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Fire, damage and overuse and bad design

The Kuznetov, was never meant to remain in service this long even when it was brand new they had issues with the boiler. Hopefully, the one they replace it within won't come with the same problems but now I wonder how else the inside of that ship looks. It's going to need alot of work alright.

Target practice with those nuke-tipped torpedoes they're developing would be a better option.

KiloGolf wrote:Target practice with those nuke-tipped torpedoes they're developing would be a better option.

Oh, how fucking predictable... what a Russophobic HATOstani muppet.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Fire, damage and overuse and bad design

The Kuznetov, was never meant to remain in service this long even when it was brand new they had issues with the boiler. Hopefully, the one they replace it within won't come with the same problems but now I wonder how else the inside of that ship looks. It's going to need alot of work alright.

What do you mean by "the" boiler?  The K has 8 boilers, not one.  Bad design?  Surely you jest?  Steam boilers are a technologies that were perfected 100 years ago.  AFAIK the Ks issues are the oil burners, not the actual boiler vessels.  Regarding this "fire damage" the blackened sections of thermal insulation may be heat affected (and insulation blankets always look like shit on any boiler thats been in service for decades), but the pattern is strongly suggestive of fluid leaks, not fire damage, probably from leaking flange connections where the the air/fuel mixture to the internal burner nozzles enters the boiler vessel under pressure.  Could be failed gaskets or deformed flange faces, could be aggravated by blocked/damaged burner nozzles causing excessive back-pressure.... can't tell with limited info, but either way it can't be repaired without yard time.

Leaking oil will undoubtedly have contaminated the boiler rooms and presented an ongoing fire risk during ship operations, but the staining isn't too extensive, so the hazard was clearly manageable.

Maybe you guys should cease your BS amateur-engineering twaddle and concentrate on what you are good at.  Whatever the fuck that is....

PapaDragon wrote:[.....I'd say that this scrapheap definitely fits the bill for target practice...

Yeah, more predictable BS...

Have your fun ya schmuck, but when the K re-emerges from the yard she'll be a different ship, and Russia will have a far more effective warship at her command.  We know that will piss off you closet-HATOstani types, but that's just tough shit.

Big_Gazza wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Target practice with those nuke-tipped torpedoes they're developing would be a better option.

Oh, how fucking predictable...  what a Russophobic HATOstani muppet.

Yes that's it, got me. Cause I'm the only person here noticing the state of that boiler, but also the fact that the CV's pier looks like some dump straight out of Mogadishu.

And that's why some new ones need to be built.

By that time, hopefully the troublemakers in the Shipyards or Almaz have met the firing squad.

KiloGolf wrote:...the CV's pier looks like some dump straight out of Mogadishu.

Yup, cuz this is the 1st example of Russia/USSR failing to spend money on cosmetic BS and keeping everything looking nice for photos...

I guess the military wants to spend its budget on weapons and vehicles, you know, the kind of things that actually stop an enemy. Maybe the shipyard doesn't want to throw cash away on trivial crap. Its a radical concept I know, but do try to work with me on this....

Big_Gazza wrote:Maybe the shipyard doesn't want to throw cash away on trivial crap.  Its a radical concept I know, but do try to work with me on this....

I know, trivial crap like engine boilers too. And their sole CV is sailing around the world with a tug since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Big_Gazza wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Fire, damage and overuse and bad design

The Kuznetov, was never meant to remain in service this long even when it was brand new they had issues with the boiler. Hopefully, the one they replace it within won't come with the same problems but now I wonder how else the inside of that ship looks. It's going to need alot of work alright.

What do you mean by "the" boiler?  The K has 8 boilers, not one.  Bad design?  Surely you jest?  Steam boilers are a technologies that were perfected 100 years ago.  AFAIK the Ks issues are the oil burners, not the actual boiler vessels.  Regarding this "fire damage" the blackened sections of thermal insulation may be heat affected (and insulation blankets always look like shit on any boiler thats been in service for decades), but the pattern is strongly suggestive of fluid leaks, not fire damage, probably from leaking flange connections where the the air/fuel mixture to the internal burner nozzles enters the boiler vessel under pressure.  Could be failed gaskets or deformed flange faces, could be aggravated by blocked/damaged burner nozzles causing excessive back-pressure.... can't tell with limited info, but either way it can't be repaired without yard time.

Leaking oil will undoubtedly have contaminated the boiler rooms and presented an ongoing fire risk during ship operations, but the staining isn't too extensive, so the hazard was clearly manageable.

Maybe you guys should cease your BS amateur-engineering twaddle and concentrate on what you are good at.  Whatever the fuck that is....

That doesn't mean every boiler that exists is perfect the Kuz has had a LONG LONG LONG history of problems with its propulsion dating back to when the ship was considered brand new. So go take your fanboyism to the same place you told me to go alright?.

I love when guys like you argue and argue even tho the history and facts on the ship state otherwise. Now that they are fixing the problems, perhaps the main issues this ship has had will finally be solved.

I know some people here have to ride to the rescue when someone says something bad about Russia, the boilers on that ship have been a problem for years and years and years. Why Russian's are only now bothering to repair them why did it take this long? I don't know.

The damage inside that vessel honestly is worse then we think. Don't try and play it off, it would be dozens of things but I have seen fire damage and that looks like fire damage to me, I have seen vehicles burning and have seen them when they are done.

Also if you're going to be a prick just shut up and move along alright, just because you have a boner for Russia doesn't change a damn thing.

so if you cannot respond politely, zip it up and shove it where the sun don't shine pumpkin

In regards to the Carriers age that isn't much of a problem honestly, Yes the Soviets built this ship has a stop-gap measure it would have been retired by now if the USSR was still floating about.

The K had the rather unfortunate honor of being the first real carrier they made, so it's understandable why it has it's design flaws and yes fanboys this ship has design flaws. I am sure someone will get some pitchforks and screaming at me for saying that.

The PROBLEM is the navy hasn't maintained the vessel well  The first Nimitz was laid down in 1975 but it runs like new because well we take care of it and doesn't have a boiler base propulsion there is a reason why those things have been long since obsolete for navy work.

We will see how it runs once this work is done, this isn't a deep modernization like the Kirov class so there SHOULDNT be too many delays they are just replacing the boilers and radar and radio-electronic weapons will be replaced on the ship,  I realize this is the russian shipbuilding industry so I expect some.

due to lack of funds they aren't replacing the Granits etc.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:In regards to the Carriers age that isn't much of a problem honestly, Yes the Soviets built this ship has a stop-gap measure it would have been retired by now if the USSR was still floating about.

The K had the rather unfortunate honor of being the first real carrier they made, so it's understandable why it has it's design flaws and yes fanboys this ship has design flaws. I am sure someone will get some pitchforks and screaming at me for saying that.

The PROBLEM is the navy hasn't maintained the vessel well  The first Nimitz was laid down in 1975 but it runs like new because well we take care of it and doesn't have a boiler base propulsion there is a reason why those things have been long since obsolete for navy work.

We will see how it runs once this work is done, this isn't a deep modernization like the Kirov class so there SHOULDNT be too many delays,  I realize this is the russian shipbuilding industry so I expect some.

This is just bad management and corruption. Russian admirals don't want to admit that they need to either upgrade it meaningfully (for which they have to fight for $$$ and lobby hard) or dump it. They prefer to keep it sailing, in whatever horrific state, sporting proudly its BBQ smoker and cement AESA panels, and keep their jobs. The MIC in shipbuilding overcharges such medium-term contracts, making sure the ship will be back for repairs very soon. The Russian politicians get to keep their toy and attempt to show off the flag (although the recent Syrian expedition was a clvsterfvck). Everyone is a winner, apart from the Russian taxpayer and their Navy.

Apparently to point that out is Russophobic.

KiloGolf wrote:

This is just bad management and corruption. Russian admirals don't want to admit that they need to either upgrade it meaningfully (for which they have to fight for $$$ and lobby hard) or dump it. They prefer to keep it sailing, in whatever horrific state, sporting proudly its BBQ smoker and cement AESA panels, and keep their jobs. The MIC in shipbuilding overcharges such medium-term contracts, making sure the ship will be back for repairs very soon. The Russian politicians get to keep their toy and attempt to show off the flag (although the recent Syrian expedition was a clvsterfvck). Everyone is a winner, apart from the Russian taxpayer and their Navy.

Apparently to point that out is Russophobic.

It was supposed to be a $2 billion modernisation that turned into a $400 million propulsion refurbishment.