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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun May 22, 2016 1:02 pm

    There is no wonder weapon that has no counter. Yes jamming of S-400 is possible but the cost of it would probably be so high that no state would dare think about it.

    Thing is that you need to have info about where the system is (as it is highly mobily) - producing such reliable info could cost you nice chunk of planes enemy state has Laughing

    Thing is that for successfully jamming you need to have strong enough ECM and to have it you need to be close which is har given passive guidance of the 400km range S-400 missiles Laughing

    To jamm the S-400 you need also to bypass all the cuntermeassures which Russia from the 1970ies implements within its airdefense ORBAT as ECM/ECCM/decoys/air componet of the

    air defense.

    etc ...

    Garry - transfer the theme to the S-400/500 theme to avoid having them to much
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 23, 2016 12:16 pm

    Recently I came across a write up in a western blog claiming that the US and NATO have develped the means to jam and nuetraise the S 400 air defence systems comprehensively. Can S 400 and 500 be jammed and nuetralized? Are these machines are jam proof? Please help me to clear this doubt. thank you admins.

    They couldn't reliably jam S-300s in their own exercises let alone Russian versions of S-300.

    Jamming and decoying is a constant battle of tit for tat... can't really say for sure who is in the lead, but the fear the west seems to show of the Russians selling S-300 to Iran suggests they are not in a position to ignore it.

    Soviets used some accelerator on their aircraft, i've seen a video of a mig 21 taking off like a missile with that technology. So it's not realy a problem. Pretty bad that they don't put money on the development of the Yak-44.

    You mean rocket assisted takeoff?

    they have mentioned development of EM cats on their new carriers... the only practical purpose for such is to allow heavier aircraft to operate from the carrier like AWACS and tanker aircraft and light transports.
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    Post  Vann7 Mon May 23, 2016 10:12 pm

    moskit wrote:Glory to Rusian armed forces,

    Dear admins,

    I have been following the air defence weapon systems being developed and deployed currently in the russian armed forces especially the S 400 for a while. India, where I belong, is about to aquire S 400 from Russia since it planned to firewall its skies by adding up these finest machines along with the systems it develops indegenously.  Recently I came across a write up in a western blog claiming that the US and NATO have develped the means to jam and nuetraise the S 400 air defence systems comprehensively. Can S 400 and 500 be jammed and nuetralized? Are these machines are jam proof? Please help me to clear this doubt. thank you admins.


    The answer to that question nobody can know for sure , not even NATO unless they test
    it for real in an S-400 in a war. But even if they could Jam S-400 or S-500 or S-600 that doesn't exist yet.  It doesn't mean it will be easy for them either. Because Patriots defenses and Aegis
    launched missiles and tomahawks can be jammed too. this latest ones even more easily since are missiles from the 80s. Russia can also Jam GPS satellites , and contrary to NATO Russia have proof /evidence of jamming state of the art Best NATO military hardware.

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Abc_iran_drone_nt_111208_wmain

    The jammed Stealth drone of Boeing , one of the very best technology Americans had ,
    was easily captured by IRAN  [u] using soviet era jamming systems [/b]  that Russia provided to them , this is according to Kret corporation ,that is ,the company who makes the electronic warfare for Russia.

    So any technology ,any missile or air defenses ,that Americans deploy to avoid Russia
    jamming will have to be superior than anything they have today in service ,at least.

    Kret is working in jamming space satellites too , according to their website , So in the worse
    case for Russia ,if NATO claims are true (which can only be possible if they tested it for real in a real war against S-400) ,Then None missile ,or air defenses or cruise missile  ,neither american ,neither Russian will hit anything across long distances because will be jammed. So both NATO and Russia will be forced to fight the old way like world war 2 with plain artillery and tanks , if both nations counter electronics are very effective if jamming long range weapons.

    This is why i believe the real deal in any high tech modern war should be focused in
    Combat stealth planes like Pak-fA or perhaps develop stealth versions of Su-25 for close air visual ground attack, that reduce significantly the range they detected on radars .that can be resistance to jam, very powerful long range artillery and modern Tanks. Ballistic missiles like Iskander can also be a pain if not impossible to jam ,because they operate most time away of enemy radar jamming range ,go to high altitude beyond jamming environments and can fly above enemy target and do a 90 degree turn on its target. So by the time the missile enters in an heavily electronic warfare zone ,it will not matter, the warhead will hit the place more or less it intended because will have autonomous guidance by optics and will not depend a lot of updated its fly path on its final phase. Bullets from pantsirs gatling gun defense also fire cannot be jammed. So if S-400 is jammed ,airforce and pantsirs will still be available.

    This is a reason i really think Russia should consider seriously develop mobile rail guns for army
    and on coastal warships backing it , that fire kinetic projectiles at hypersonic speeds from upto 100km distance or more. You cannot jam kinetic projectiles that are not guided by radio its flight path.
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    Post  Singular_trafo Tue May 24, 2016 7:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Recently I came across a write up in a western blog claiming that the US and NATO have develped the means to jam and nuetraise the S 400 air defence systems comprehensively. Can S 400 and 500 be jammed and nuetralized? Are these machines are jam proof? Please help me to clear this doubt. thank you admins.

    They couldn't reliably jam S-300s in their own exercises let alone Russian versions of S-300.


    It is possible to jam the phased array radars as well.
    I just went throught in mathcad the basic radar calculations, and the radar direction can be calculated from the sidelobes.
    If you know the direction of the main lobe then you can generate phase direction dependend jamming signal, with a wavelenght calculated based on the emitted frequency divided by the cosin of the angle between main lobe direction and jamming emitter direction.

    The radar is FM , so it require more than simple frequency generation , but of course the jammer is allwazs in power advantage.

    Only method to filter out this kind of jamming is if there are more radars interconnected, in that case the jammer has to generate direction dependent signal for all radar to jamm them.

    It is a quite interesting topics, however there is not so much information about it on the net.Actualy I found 0 , all information coming from mathcad calculations.
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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Empty phased array radar signal pattern

    Post  Singular_trafo Wed May 25, 2016 9:11 pm

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Side_lobes

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Side_lobes_30

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Side_lobes_exp


    100 emitter vs 40 emitter, and the signal strenght by radian , showing the sidelobes.
    The first two picture doesn't show the sidelobe magnitude, I tried to scale them up to be visible.

    It is easy to calculate the main lobe andle compared to the receiver for jamming ,but to define the exact direction you need two receiver .

    I hope that the picture will be visible : )
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    Post  max steel Wed May 25, 2016 9:26 pm

    But Israelis jammed or decoyed Syrian S-300 successfully. Wink
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    Post  Isos Wed May 25, 2016 10:13 pm

    https://warisboring.com/four-israeli-f-15s-dodged-syrian-missile-fire-to-attack-urgent-targets-a28cff11323d#.pafhfs5o1

    Just found this. Don't know if it's true but they didn't even manage to jam succesfully soviet Buk ... so S-400/500 jamming ...


    Even if it was jammed the jammer would be detected and a fighter would be send to destroy it. That's what happened with a F-111 in Irak: when it was jamming SAMs a mig mannaged to shoot at it and it has to go away then a f-16 was shoot down by SAMs.


    Last edited by Isos on Wed May 25, 2016 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Empty ΕCM vs S-300/400

    Post  Singular_trafo Wed May 25, 2016 10:22 pm

    max steel wrote:But Israelis jammed or decoyed Syrian S-300 successfully. Wink

    They don't need to do that, due to the curvature of earth the Israeli airplanes can stay under the radar in south syria.
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    Post  Austin Fri May 27, 2016 7:51 pm

    S-500: Russia’s New Generation Game Changing Weapon

    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/05/15/s-500-russia-new-generation-game-changing-weapon.html
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    Post  Austin Sun May 29, 2016 9:14 am

    Folks my Article on S-500 Air and Space Defence System. Feel free to provide feedback correction.

    https://austinstalk.blogspot.in/2016/05/s-500-air-space-defense-system.html
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun May 29, 2016 4:14 pm

    Austin wrote:Folks my Article on S-500 Air and Space Defence System.  Feel free to provide feedback correction.  

    https://austinstalk.blogspot.in/2016/05/s-500-air-space-defense-system.html

    Excellent work Austin - tnx for summarising everything abtout S-500

    S-500 Air & Space Defence System as mentioned by Russian Officials will have Terminal Defence Capability at 200 km Interception Altitude for ICBM type targets ( 7 km/sec ) and Mid Course Intercept Capability against IRBM type target flying at higher altitude

    Indicates that the altitude height for the ballistic interceptor missile of the S-500 system is significantly heigher than 40N6 185-200km ! (For a IRBM class missile target)
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    Post  Austin Sun May 29, 2016 5:21 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:Folks my Article on S-500 Air and Space Defence System.  Feel free to provide feedback correction.  

    https://austinstalk.blogspot.in/2016/05/s-500-air-space-defense-system.html

    Excellent work Austin - tnx for summarising everything abtout S-500

    Thanks

    S-500 Air & Space Defence System as mentioned by Russian Officials will have Terminal Defence Capability at 200 km Interception Altitude for ICBM type targets ( 7 km/sec ) and Mid Course Intercept Capability against IRBM type target flying at higher altitude

    Indicates that the altitude height for the ballistic interceptor missile of the S-500 system is significantly heigher than 40N6 185-200km ! (For a IRBM class missile target)[/quote]

    Yes an irbm generally travel at 400-500 km but at slower speed compared to icbm at 3 to 5 km/ sec and s-500 can intercept these at mid-course
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    Post  Austin Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:25 am

    I have added specification section let me know if I am missing something

    http://austinstalk.blogspot.in/2016/05/s-500-air-space-defense-system.html

    The big puzzle for me on on S-500 radar we know from Almaz statement that it will be X band AESA must be MFCR but Range and if there are other supporting radar.

    Also if they can integrate 40N6 with S-500 missile then they can take on SRBM to ICBM target with 3 different interceptor
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    Post  franco Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:16 pm

    ASTANA, June 3. / TASS /. Concern "Almaz-Antey" will begin delivery of anti-aircraft missile systems (AAMS) S-400 "Triumph" in June this year, the state defense order, told reporters in the press service of the concern during the exhibition KADEX-2016.

    "In 2016, EKO Concern" Almaz-Antey "in the framework of the state defense order supplies five regimental sets of S-400 in accordance with the three state contracts Deadline delivery conditions -. October 25," - said the press service.

    With the company made it clear that the Defense Ministry will receive at Kapustin Yar, near Astrakhan, one set per month. The last war will have on 25 October. Each kit consists of two missile battalions and command post.
    In total, the Defense Ministry will receive 680 pieces of equipment, the press-service.

    "Almaz-Antey" first supplies of Russian military equipment to the five regiments of the S-400 - previously the largest party consisted of three regimental sets, she was transferred during 2015.
    Previously, the concern already expressed their readiness to advance Ministry of Defense to put five regimental sets of advanced anti-aircraft missile systems. By the end of 2016 the Russian army will have a total of 16 regimental sets of S-400.


    NOTE: units delivered to Kapustin Yar to crew conversion training before heading to their designated permanent posting.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:03 pm

    That leaves 12 regimental S-400 to be delivered up to 2021 or 12 systems in 4 years. Thats why deliveries to buyers around the globe will commence in 2018.

    It would be interesting to see the next contract for some S-400M still we are long way off.
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    Post  Singular_trafo Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:01 pm

    Viktor wrote:That leaves 12 regimental S-400 to be delivered up to 2021 or 12 systems in 4 years. Thats why deliveries to buyers around the globe will commence in 2018.

    It would be interesting to see the next contract for some S-400M still we are long way off.

    What is the composition of the regiments ?

    The wiki is not so clear about it.
    The S-400 should has more than one radar type , and more than one launcher type.

    Any info about the comosition of these?
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    Post  franco Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:08 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:That leaves 12 regimental S-400 to be delivered up to 2021 or 12 systems in 4 years. Thats why deliveries to buyers around the globe will commence in 2018.

    It would be interesting to see the next contract for some S-400M still we are long way off.

    What is the composition of the regiments ?

    The wiki is not so clear about it.
    The S-400 should has more than one radar type , and more than one launcher type.

    Any info about the comosition of these?

    Generally a regiment consists of;

    - Command & control with a 91N6E target acquisition radar plus command, control and communication vehicles
    - 2 or more (rare) fire battalions with command, control and communication vehicles, use to be 8 TEL's (2 divisions or batteries) but lately are seeing 6 TEL units plus 92N6E multi role radars
    - both types also employee ECM devices
    - generally all at different locations within 100 kilometers

    Are also seeing S300PMU fire battalions being incorporated and S350 fire units will also be incorporated when they arrive (planned for the end of the year).
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    Post  Singular_trafo Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:05 am

    franco wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:That leaves 12 regimental S-400 to be delivered up to 2021 or 12 systems in 4 years. Thats why deliveries to buyers around the globe will commence in 2018.

    It would be interesting to see the next contract for some S-400M still we are long way off.

    What is the composition of the regiments ?

    The wiki is not so clear about it.
    The S-400 should has more than one radar type , and more than one launcher type.

    Any info about the comosition of these?

    Generally a regiment consists of;

    - Command & control with a 91N6E target acquisition radar plus command, control and communication vehicles
    - 2 or more (rare) fire battalions with command, control and communication vehicles, use to be 8 TEL's (2 divisions or batteries) but lately are seeing 6 TEL units plus 92N6E multi role radars
    - both types also employee ECM devices
    - generally all at different locations within 100 kilometers

    Are also seeing S300PMU fire battalions being incorporated and S350 fire units will also be incorporated when they arrive (planned for the end of the year).

    Ok, so at the moment Russia has 25 battalions, each of these has 6 TEL + 1 radar at least.

    So the number of launchers is 150 -wiki says 200.

    The US has 483 active patriot.

    So ,Russia will have by the end of the decade as much modern, anti stealth radar systam as many active, non stealth capable air deffence the US has.


    Additionaly russia has close to 1000 active s-300 launchers

    Us has 20000 km coastline, and 12000 km border, russia has 27000 / 20000


    However the russian costline is not populated , in the case of US the coastline isthe main population center.


    So,the US has to deffend at least the same lenght of border or more probably way more than russia, but has no anti-stealth radar system,and has less than half active SAM system than russia.


    So, as soon as China starts to manufacture carriers and subs the US will face a hard choice about defence priorities.
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    Post  rambo54 Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:39 pm

    short question: is it really confirmed that there is a S-400 deployment in the St.Petersburg area?
    Thanks
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    Post  Viktor Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:02 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    Viktor wrote:That leaves 12 regimental S-400 to be delivered up to 2021 or 12 systems in 4 years. Thats why deliveries to buyers around the globe will commence in 2018.

    It would be interesting to see the next contract for some S-400M still we are long way off.

    What is the composition of the regiments ?

    The wiki is not so clear about it.
    The S-400 should has more than one radar type , and more than one launcher type.

    Any info about the comosition of these?

    At first all delivered S-400 regiment consisted of two S-400 batteries. Last year S-400 regiment consisted of 3 S-400 batteries (8 S-400 batteries per regiment is max)

    Each battery has up to 12 TEL + shooting radar (92N6) (at first delivered S-400 batteries had 4 TEL per battery and now 8 as is the most usual number found).

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Sa10cc10

    also you have different streinghtening of the batteries according to estimated threats

    Regiment has also regimental search radar (91N6)+ command post 55K6

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Hist111


    But also S-400 regimental command post can be used to guide different command post of radar trops of ECM/ECCM and as of lately even aviation component. (still several

    order of magnitude less than for instance brigade level command post like Baikal-1M)

    Brigade level S-400 integrates radar command post as well as ECM/ECCM command post which also consists of air component command posts and looks something like this.

    (2 S-400 regiments per S-400 brigade is max)

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Bc8a5010

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 14590911

    And thats all from operational level. From the higher organizational level you have Area defense (few brigades) and Zone defense (few Area defense).

    And put all togeather it looks something like this Very Happy

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 14590912

    while the radar troops integrated within AD command post of (in S-400 case in already regimental level from S-300 brigade level) for instance Fundament-1/2/3 command post with

    ECM/ECCM command posts AKUP-1/APUR-1

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 14590913

    while the radar troops on its own can have quite complex composition too

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2 - Page 28 Fundam10

    while retaining the automatic mode of re-desing of the AD structure in case some of its parts are destroyed.

    and in case you are interested I can send you (or anyone else for that matter ) "Air Defense Weapons and Electronics Systems of Russia" by Almaz-Antey (2011) where you will find

    plentiful of information about the systems you have not even heard of Very Happy

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    Post  Singular_trafo Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:03 pm

    Viktor wrote:


    Thanks , it is quite nice.: )

    It contain a few interesting information, so there is a special relay truck ,to increase the range of the comm link to 30 km, without that the 92N6E must be within the 15km range of the main radar, with that it can be in 3*30 km range.

    The main radard is decimetric, and what about the targeting radards?
    those are deci or centimetric ones?

    And as I can see the TLE must be within the 120 m of the main radar.



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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:54 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?
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    Post  rambo54 Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:43 am

    As usual the delivery of new S-400 come into effect not before the second half of a year.
    End of last year the figure stood at 11 RGT and 5 more were announced for 2016.
    My personal counting for May 2016 was 12 RGT (4 Moscow, 1 Murmansk, 1 Kaliningrad, 1 St.Petersburg, 1 Novorossisk, 1 Novosibirsk, 1 Kamchatka, 1 Nachodka, 1 Vladivostok).
    But I have to reduce two of them.
    First:
    1533rd
    The latest google earth imagery reveal Pantsyr detachment over here  43.024096° 131.788040° (best image is from 25.3.16: 5 launcher, 3 loader). But the nearby S-300PS didn't change.
    This is also for the second site of the RGT 43.130167° 132.040857° (the coordinates are for the CIA because they wouldn't have it without me).
    And this is confirmed by media: http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12079357@egNews
    Obviously they will get their S-400 only in the second half of the year.
    On the other hand there is indeed already a small deployment of S-400 over here 43.358160° 131.863564°. The history layer reveals that it was a former S-300PS and then a S-300V site.
    There are 4 5P85S2, 96L6 & 92N6. I don't know whether they serve as 3rd Batt (= Div) of the 1533 or as an independent unit. Strange.

    Second:
    The St.Petersburg deployment seems to be still pending.
    I know that some refer to warfare.be, but this fine page make (as we all) mistakes too. A year ago they identify the 1489 RGT at Vaganovo for S-400. This is not the case. They still have S-300PS at one site.
    Now they claim this for 500 RGT. This RGT (often assigned to the village of Gostilizy, which has just a small and unimpressive logistic park over here 59.741570°29.573464°) has two deployment sites each with an unusual large number of PM launchers. At each site 24 launchers obviously devided into 2 Batt (=Div) at each site.
    I've got photos from both sites made in March 2016 still showing no S-400 equipment. Maybe they will got their equipment in the second half of the year too. But maybe the S-400 will go to another RGT. 1488 (northwest of St.Petersburg) shoot down two of it's sites meanwhile (waiting for new equipment?).

    If deployment at these two areas happened that would bring the number of RGT to 12!

    I'm curious where the other 4 RGT announced for 2016 will go to bring the grand total to 16 RGT.
    Locations were named (e.g. Tiksi, Novaja Semelya) but the latter meanwhile got PM not S-400.
    franco
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    Post  franco Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:25 pm

    Did notice the other day that the new Regiment at Abakan is the 170th according to the Warfare people.
    franco
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    Post  franco Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:24 pm

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?



    Nebo-M are operational with Radar regiments not SAM regiments.
    Plans were for 90-100 by end of 2020.
    Believe first unit delivered in 2013 with a dozen or so operational so far.

    EDIT: according to militaryrussia.ru first unit(s) in 2013, 6 delivered in 2014 and supposed to be 10 in 2015.

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