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Big_Gazzachicken wrote:I thought the Э meant it's for export?
In this case, the Э designation is added as its part of advertising material for export warships. Domestic Russian navy versions will drop the Э.
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verkhoturye51
GunshipDemocracy
Rodion_Romanovic
PapaDragon
Big_Gazza
Tsavo Lion
chicken
hoom
runaway
TheArmenian
Viktor
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TR1
GarryB
George1
19 posters
UKSK VLS System
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4967
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In this case, the Э designation is added as its part of advertising material for export warships. Domestic Russian navy versions will drop the Э.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4967
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Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
GarryB wrote:Not sure a containerless one would work as the missiles they carry are mostly hot launched...
Are they hot launched? The 3C-14 VLS deck layout doesn't appear to include any seperate flame vents as you would see with a USN VLS. Looking at both Oniks & Kalibre firings, I'm not convinced. To my eye, they appear be ejected from their containers by a low-pressure slow-burning "black powder" charge or similar, and the missile motors are ignited as soon as the missile leaves the tube. Oniks & Kalibre are simply too large and heavy to be ejected from their tubes by a low-energy method like compressed air (which is OK for relatively low mass SAMs, but not practical for heavy AShMs). "Cold" launch is a bit of a misnomer - "warm" launch is a better description.
Admittedly its hard to see... does anyone have a reliable reference that describes the launch sequence?
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4967
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hoom wrote:I'd call it a pretty hot launch.
Hmmm.. I'm inclined to agree. Oniks clearly has a variable burn rate motor as seen by its initial low-energy vertical launch, transition to horizontal, then full thrust boost. I suspect the Oniks motor provides a second or so of slow-burn, to get the round out of the tube, and the exhaust is clearly vented via the tube annulus (ie between the tube wall and the round). Likely Kalibre also uses this technique.
Thanks for links
George1- Posts : 18556
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КBSМ: UKSK with "Onyx" and without
Rumors that not all ships equipped with a universal ship-based firing complex (UCSC), otherwise - installation (installations) of vertical launching (OHR) 3C14, can use the 3M55 Onyx, went for a long time, thanks to the participant of the Sea Forum of the Airbase Curious, who reported one corporate publication, The Design Bureau of Special Machine Building (KBSM, St. Petersburg) prefers not to advertise its activities in the interests of the Ministry of Defense - you will not find military products on the company's website (ref. 1), nevertheless, in the book "JSC KBSM 70 years old" published in 2015 and placed in the public domain, there are many interesting facts about products for the Navy. Below are quotes from the source.
So, "JSC KBSM 70 years old" the head of "KBSM for the Navy," section "Starting equipment and means of loading for modern surface ships and submarines of the Russian Navy" (pages 51-52):
"In recent years, launching equipment and loading facilities for missile systems 3K14, 3M55, 9K, 3K96, as well as for the small-sized torpedo package "Paket", deployed on the newest ships of the Russian Navy, have been developed, delivered or put into operation.
The family of vertical launchers of surface ships of the type 3С14 ensures the placement of the products of the complex 3K14 [KRO "Kalibr"] on the NK of the projects 1161К, 21631, 11356М, and on the NC of the projects 22350, 20385, 11442М, in addition, also the products of the complexes 3М55 [Oniks] And 9K [missile torpedoes of the Novator OKB]. KBSM is the developer and supplier of commercially manufactured transport-starting cups made of composite materials with a breakable lid for the products of 3K14 and 9K complexes. To load products of these complexes in the PU of the NC, complexes of loading devices (PCB) of the SM-456 type have been created.
It is unlikely that the non-applicability of the Onyx in some CSCs is related to the size of ammunition, since the 3M14 and 3M55 (without TPS) are approximately the same length (according to some estimates, about 8.1 and 8.6 m). Most likely the ammunition 3C14 is cut artificially due to the control system. Particularly absurd is the example of 20385 (a corvette with Onyx) and 11356 (a frigate without Onyx).
Notes:
1) the index of of the Navy 3M55 refers to the rocket, the "unclassified" index of the Onyx complex is not known to me;
2) the indices 3K14, 9K and 3K96 (the latter refers, I believe, to the Redut SAM) in authoritative sources do not occur and therefore cause doubts and need confirmation;
3) the 9K index looks strange - for the uniformity of the indexing system there is clearly not enough two figures;
4) the project index 11356M personally meets me for the first time; On the mortgage boards of the SDS figures 11356, on the "Yantar" in the course of 11356R;
5) roughness in the indexation of ships and products, in my opinion, should not compromise the value and reliability of information regarding the nomenclature of ammunition that can be used from the UVP 3С14 (UKSK) listed in the quote projects.
Application.
For those who are interested not only in the UKCSK, but also in other CBSS development launchers for ships of new projects, I quote one more quote from the same section (page 52):
"24 universal launchers SM-346 for the products of the 3K-14 and 3M55 complexes are vertically placed on the newest submarine pr.888. To ensure the loading of products in the UCP, a universal SMP SM-456-885 has been created, taking into account the current trends, on the nuclear submarine prospect 08851 In the containers are placed removable frame-modules CM-704 for the products of complexes 3K-14 and 3M55.
Launcher stations 20380 and 22350 also house the SM-588 (SM-588-03) launchers developed at the KBSM for the Patch complex. To accommodate the products of the complex [MPC] "Paket", transport and launch containers CM-549 have been developed. To service the products of the packages "Paket" and "Lasta" [for anti-torpedo protection of submarines] a universal ground service package CM-761 was developed, including a set of loaders SM-732.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2800468.html
Rumors that not all ships equipped with a universal ship-based firing complex (UCSC), otherwise - installation (installations) of vertical launching (OHR) 3C14, can use the 3M55 Onyx, went for a long time, thanks to the participant of the Sea Forum of the Airbase Curious, who reported one corporate publication, The Design Bureau of Special Machine Building (KBSM, St. Petersburg) prefers not to advertise its activities in the interests of the Ministry of Defense - you will not find military products on the company's website (ref. 1), nevertheless, in the book "JSC KBSM 70 years old" published in 2015 and placed in the public domain, there are many interesting facts about products for the Navy. Below are quotes from the source.
So, "JSC KBSM 70 years old" the head of "KBSM for the Navy," section "Starting equipment and means of loading for modern surface ships and submarines of the Russian Navy" (pages 51-52):
"In recent years, launching equipment and loading facilities for missile systems 3K14, 3M55, 9K, 3K96, as well as for the small-sized torpedo package "Paket", deployed on the newest ships of the Russian Navy, have been developed, delivered or put into operation.
The family of vertical launchers of surface ships of the type 3С14 ensures the placement of the products of the complex 3K14 [KRO "Kalibr"] on the NK of the projects 1161К, 21631, 11356М, and on the NC of the projects 22350, 20385, 11442М, in addition, also the products of the complexes 3М55 [Oniks] And 9K [missile torpedoes of the Novator OKB]. KBSM is the developer and supplier of commercially manufactured transport-starting cups made of composite materials with a breakable lid for the products of 3K14 and 9K complexes. To load products of these complexes in the PU of the NC, complexes of loading devices (PCB) of the SM-456 type have been created.
It is unlikely that the non-applicability of the Onyx in some CSCs is related to the size of ammunition, since the 3M14 and 3M55 (without TPS) are approximately the same length (according to some estimates, about 8.1 and 8.6 m). Most likely the ammunition 3C14 is cut artificially due to the control system. Particularly absurd is the example of 20385 (a corvette with Onyx) and 11356 (a frigate without Onyx).
Notes:
1) the index of of the Navy 3M55 refers to the rocket, the "unclassified" index of the Onyx complex is not known to me;
2) the indices 3K14, 9K and 3K96 (the latter refers, I believe, to the Redut SAM) in authoritative sources do not occur and therefore cause doubts and need confirmation;
3) the 9K index looks strange - for the uniformity of the indexing system there is clearly not enough two figures;
4) the project index 11356M personally meets me for the first time; On the mortgage boards of the SDS figures 11356, on the "Yantar" in the course of 11356R;
5) roughness in the indexation of ships and products, in my opinion, should not compromise the value and reliability of information regarding the nomenclature of ammunition that can be used from the UVP 3С14 (UKSK) listed in the quote projects.
Application.
For those who are interested not only in the UKCSK, but also in other CBSS development launchers for ships of new projects, I quote one more quote from the same section (page 52):
"24 universal launchers SM-346 for the products of the 3K-14 and 3M55 complexes are vertically placed on the newest submarine pr.888. To ensure the loading of products in the UCP, a universal SMP SM-456-885 has been created, taking into account the current trends, on the nuclear submarine prospect 08851 In the containers are placed removable frame-modules CM-704 for the products of complexes 3K-14 and 3M55.
Launcher stations 20380 and 22350 also house the SM-588 (SM-588-03) launchers developed at the KBSM for the Patch complex. To accommodate the products of the complex [MPC] "Paket", transport and launch containers CM-549 have been developed. To service the products of the packages "Paket" and "Lasta" [for anti-torpedo protection of submarines] a universal ground service package CM-761 was developed, including a set of loaders SM-732.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2800468.html
PapaDragon- Posts : 13593
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Can anyone clarify? Machine translation really did a number on this.
Are they saying that there's a problem with launchers or that document they are discussing is faulty?
Are they saying that there's a problem with launchers or that document they are discussing is faulty?
hoom- Posts : 2352
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I think its a question of control systems fitted on the ships rather than capability of the launcher.
George1- Posts : 18556
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UKSK VLS to be Replaced with Upgraded UKSK-M Systems
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/november-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5738-russia-s-uksk-vls-to-be-replaced-with-upgraded-uksk-m-systems.html
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/november-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5738-russia-s-uksk-vls-to-be-replaced-with-upgraded-uksk-m-systems.html
chicken- Posts : 110
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George1 wrote:UKSK VLS to be Replaced with Upgraded UKSK-M Systems
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/november-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5738-russia-s-uksk-vls-to-be-replaced-with-upgraded-uksk-m-systems.html
Is Izvestia a trustworthy source now?
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Slightly bigger tubes to fit X-101?
Compatibility with S-300/400 missiles?
Quad-pack 9M96?
There are some interesting possibilities.
But some kind of significant physical change would be a disappointment.
Compatibility with S-300/400 missiles?
Quad-pack 9M96?
There are some interesting possibilities.
But some kind of significant physical change would be a disappointment.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2676
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hoom wrote:Slightly bigger tubes to fit X-101?
Compatibility with S-300/400 missiles?
Quad-pack 9M96?
There are some interesting possibilities.
But some kind of significant physical change would be a disappointment.
Actually it does make sense, as the long range missiles of the s400 family (40n6 and 48n6) have a mass of about 1900kg, within the weight range of the Kalibr family missiles.
Does anybody know their lenght?
So, separate redut launchers for 9M96 (they are about 420kg each)(as in gorshkov frigate), or quad packed in the
UKSK-M?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13593
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Developing set of adapters for different missiles would be a good move
GarryB- Posts : 40736
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The main problem with universal vertical launch tubes is that they will best fit one size of missile and for everything else they are inefficient.
The difference in diameter and weight of these different missiles means that you could not only go for a quad pack of smaller missiles but if you could stack two quad adaptors on top of each other then you could use the available space far more efficiently.
And of course the biggest missile you would want to fire would be the biggest missile you need to fire, which would be the naval S-500 and long range S-400 missiles.
For smaller missiles like the two smaller S-400 missiles, the 120km range missile is not that short, but the 60km range missile could probably be stacked in two quad packs.
The even smaller short range missile could possibly be stacked in a 5 or 6 pack with three layers.
You could take this even further with the current standard subsonic Calibre cruise missile with one missile to a tube, but perhaps you could get two Kh-35s in there or 3 or 4 Kh-31s. these 250km range missiles would be plenty for most tasks for smaller vessels.
Being able to fire just any old missile from these tubes means you could just have all of one set of tubes which means more flexibility when arming the vessel and even rearming at sea.
The critical issue is that you must be able to load every type of weapon you might need and for smaller vessels you do need to be able to load larger numbers of smaller missile types instead of just a few really big weapons.
The difference in diameter and weight of these different missiles means that you could not only go for a quad pack of smaller missiles but if you could stack two quad adaptors on top of each other then you could use the available space far more efficiently.
And of course the biggest missile you would want to fire would be the biggest missile you need to fire, which would be the naval S-500 and long range S-400 missiles.
For smaller missiles like the two smaller S-400 missiles, the 120km range missile is not that short, but the 60km range missile could probably be stacked in two quad packs.
The even smaller short range missile could possibly be stacked in a 5 or 6 pack with three layers.
You could take this even further with the current standard subsonic Calibre cruise missile with one missile to a tube, but perhaps you could get two Kh-35s in there or 3 or 4 Kh-31s. these 250km range missiles would be plenty for most tasks for smaller vessels.
Being able to fire just any old missile from these tubes means you could just have all of one set of tubes which means more flexibility when arming the vessel and even rearming at sea.
The critical issue is that you must be able to load every type of weapon you might need and for smaller vessels you do need to be able to load larger numbers of smaller missile types instead of just a few really big weapons.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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I mean it'd be cool if its a proper universal VLS with compatibility for S-5/4/300 SAMs, quad-packed 9M96, X-101 as well as Zircon/Onyx/Calibr.
But disappointing that the people who specced the original design without that in mind -> needing a revision.
It'd be even cooler if the external dimensions don't actually increase (much) & it will be possible to retro-fit (where appropriate) ships that have been built with original model.
Maybe a short version to replace Redut with quad 9M96?
But disappointing that the people who specced the original design without that in mind -> needing a revision.
It'd be even cooler if the external dimensions don't actually increase (much) & it will be possible to retro-fit (where appropriate) ships that have been built with original model.
Maybe a short version to replace Redut with quad 9M96?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13593
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hoom wrote:....
Maybe a short version to replace Redut with quad 9M96?
Wait, are you telling me that you can fit 4 of those into one UKSK cell?
If yes they should get on it like yesterday.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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I'm saying if this new UKSK variant is to enable bigger missiles & SAMs it might also be worthwhile to ensure it fits quad-packed 9M96 at the same time.
If doing that it'd probably be worthwhile to make a shorter version that can be dedicated for 9M96 like how Mk41 has a shorter quad-packed ESSM only version.
If doing that it'd probably be worthwhile to make a shorter version that can be dedicated for 9M96 like how Mk41 has a shorter quad-packed ESSM only version.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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A more official source https://ria.ru/arms/20171117/1509003761.html
Quotes the Izvestia article but apparently also some Navy command.
I hadn't actually realised they are indeed talking about a fully universal system with SAMs as well.
Quotes the Izvestia article but apparently also some Navy command.
I hadn't actually realised they are indeed talking about a fully universal system with SAMs as well.
allows storing and launching, even in the worst of the storm, all types of missiles in the Navy's fleet - anti-aircraft, cruise, anti-ship and even antisubmarine weapons.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6174
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Source: Russia is developing a new cruise missile "Caliber-M"
According to the agency interlocutor, the range of the rocket is more than 4.5 thousand km.
MOSCOW, January 8. / TASS /. Work on the creation for the Navy of the newest cruise missile "Caliber-M" with a range of more than 4.5 thousand km is carried out in Russia. This was announced on Tuesday Tass source in the military-industrial complex.
"For the Navy, the newest high-precision ship-based Kalibr-M cruise missile with a maximum firing range of more than 4.5 thousand km is being developed. The creation of the rocket is at the stage of research and is funded by the Ministry of Defense," the agency’s source said. He clarified that the creation of the Caliber-M was included in the state armament program until 2027, “the rocket must be transferred to the fleet until the end of the program’s action.”
The source added that the new rocket will differ from the Calibrov in service both in terms of its longer range and dimensions. "The rocket will be much larger, the weight of its warhead will be close to 1 ton," he said. According to the agency interlocutor, it is planned to equip large surface ships, starting with frigates, as well as nuclear submarines, with a new rocket. "Caliber-M" is designed to destroy land facilities and will be able to carry both conventional and nuclear warhead, "- he said.
TASS does not have official confirmation provided by the source of information.
Changes were made to the news (10:22 Moscow time) - information was added after the second paragraph
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5979716
I just wonder if this is gonna be a land attack only or also antishipping ?
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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I just wonder if this is gonna be a land attack only or also antishipping ?
It doesn't really matter if it's too large for UKSK since they'll have nowhere to put it.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6174
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verkhoturye51 wrote:I just wonder if this is gonna be a land attack only or also antishipping ?
It doesn't really matter if it's too large for UKSK since they'll have nowhere to put it.
so you think there is a CM developed without concept how to place it on ships? If UKSK can fit Onyx/Zircon why cannot nes Calbir?
verkhoturye51- Posts : 438
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You can't fit twice larger missile in the same tube. They could be developing it for UKSK-M, but it's unclear if it will be ready in time. Only some state media mentioned it a year ago. No time frame or statement if it's funded already.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6174
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verkhoturye51 wrote:You can't fit twice larger missile in the same tube. They could be developing it for UKSK-M, but it's unclear if it will be ready in time. Only some state media mentioned it a year ago. No time frame or statement if it's funded already.
UKSK-M is to be retrofitted on most of ships AFAIK
GarryB- Posts : 40736
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For people talking about the Kh-101 is too big?
As posted above ;
So it seems they are not putting the Kh-101 or Kh-102 into UKSK launch tubes... they are adapting the Calibre missile to extend its range... presumably with new motor and reshaped design to allow more internal fuel.
As posted above ;
According to the agency interlocutor, the range of the rocket is more than 4.5 thousand km.
MOSCOW, January 8. / TASS /. Work on the creation for the Navy of the newest cruise missile "Caliber-M" with a range of more than 4.5 thousand km is carried out in Russia. This was announced on Tuesday Tass source in the military-industrial complex.
So it seems they are not putting the Kh-101 or Kh-102 into UKSK launch tubes... they are adapting the Calibre missile to extend its range... presumably with new motor and reshaped design to allow more internal fuel.
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Note Calibre is based on the SS-N-21 Grannat, and is not related to the air launched Kh-55 or Kh-101 families of missiles.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6174
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GarryB wrote:Note Calibre is based on the SS-N-21 Grannat, and is not related to the air launched Kh-55 or Kh-101 families of missiles.
in article it is clearly written: much larger than Kalibr and warhead is close to one ton. . BTW Kh-101 although airborne has warhead max 450kg, length ~8m and diameter 0,7 os it is bigger.
So the new beast is gonna be rather bigger. As for UKSK-M , why do you think this M was needed?
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Yes, with the subsequent articles specifically naming it Kalibr-M its not Kh-101.So it seems they are not putting the Kh-101 or Kh-102 into UKSK launch tubes... they are adapting the Calibre missile to extend its range... presumably with new motor and reshaped design to allow more internal fuel.
There was still that suggestion a while back, so could also be coming.
Though perhaps more likely that 'naval Kh-101' was a misunderstood reference to this Kalibr-M.